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Speaker 1: Afternoon, the White Tonguey Tribunal has released its first take

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Speaker 1: on the government's Treaty Principles Bill, and it doesn't like it.

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Speaker 1: It says it's unfair and it's discriminatory and it should

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Speaker 1: be abandoned. But the Prime Minister has already pushed back,

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Speaker 1: saying it's a coalition commitment with Act to pursue the

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Speaker 1: bill to first reading. There will be different party positions

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Speaker 1: around the issue. I acknowledge that it's a challenging issue

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Speaker 1: that has been in my conversations with eerie leaders up

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Speaker 1: and down the country. Doctor Sam Carpenter is a former

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Speaker 1: White Tonguey Tribunal historian now researcher at laid Law College

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Speaker 1: and with us Hey, Sam, Sam, there's no bill written,

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Speaker 1: so what have they based this on?

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Speaker 2: Well, based on that leaked advice on the coalition agreement

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Speaker 2: which says that the bill will be introduced on the

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Speaker 2: base but on the basis of existing Act policy. Now,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there seems to be some different sort of

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Speaker 2: opinion about whether you know it was the right time

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Speaker 2: to hold such an inquiry, but I think given the

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Speaker 2: constitutional significance, it's probably reason that the Tribunal did jump

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Speaker 2: at this.

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Speaker 1: What can possibly be discriminatory about what act has released.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the real sticking point in terms of

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Speaker 2: the historical treaty and also I guess the interpretation of

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Speaker 2: treaty principles by Port's government and the Tribunal since the

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties is the article to proposed clause or proposed

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Speaker 2: principle which essentially diminishes or or takes away marty rights

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Speaker 2: under the Guarantee of Bangotiertanga an Article two so essentially

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Speaker 2: transmographies that into a sort of a guarantee of Bangotiertanga

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Speaker 2: for all New Zealanders, which is kind of pretty historically

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Speaker 2: untenable hold the tax.

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Speaker 1: So how is this taking away any rights? Just explain

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Speaker 1: to me how does it take away rights from Mary

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Speaker 1: from Ewi?

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Speaker 2: Well, the Article one or tility says that the Crown

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Speaker 2: gets the right to govern and Article two is the

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Speaker 2: exchange is that the Crown then promises to protect the

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Speaker 2: rights of Hapou and Ewi groups in particular you know,

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Speaker 2: to lands, forest, fisheries, another, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And how does this kind take that away?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's basically proposing to face that Article two statement

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Speaker 2: in the actual treaty. And also as understood, you know,

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Speaker 2: as the principles are typically understood as a guarantee of rangatanga.

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Speaker 2: For Madi to say that Article two just means a

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Speaker 2: guarantee of tanga for all New Zealanders over their land.

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Speaker 1: And their property. But would that so would it not

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Speaker 1: be like this, sam if if Ewe and Hapu have

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Speaker 1: gottanga chieftainship over this particular piece of land and and

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Speaker 1: and you know, and this property. If you extend that

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Speaker 1: then to everybody in the country, how does that diminish

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Speaker 1: what e wee in Hapho've got because it just it

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Speaker 1: just reinforces they also have it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it just reduces an Article two

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Speaker 2: to some sort of liberal democratic properly right. But there's

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Speaker 2: really no need to do that. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: one of the well, one of the objections the Tribunal

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Speaker 2: has in the report, which is a very useful report

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Speaker 2: I think in terms of you know, how it examines

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Speaker 2: this issue. It says basically there's no there's no need

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Speaker 2: for a true principal bill and and potentially it will

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Speaker 2: create lots of confusion in the existing law and the

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Speaker 2: way principles are understood and existing both statute law, but

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Speaker 2: also the way the courts look like.

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Speaker 1: But let so let's just understand something. So what the

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Speaker 1: what the tribunal is saying is that by extending the

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Speaker 1: same right of chieftainship to everybody, it takes it away

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Speaker 1: from Mari.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean, I mean, it's pretty clearly understood.

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Speaker 2: I think in the in the jurisprudence that the guarantee

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Speaker 2: of citizenship or citizenship rights of all individuals is guaranteed

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Speaker 2: in the Article three. Yes, that's the rights of subject

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Speaker 2: of it. And that Article two is a uniquely Marti

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Speaker 2: guarantee to hapu, to collective groups in respect to their

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Speaker 2: lands and tamas. So I mean, ex trying to abstract

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Speaker 2: Article two into some sort of vagues liberal democratic equality

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Speaker 2: before the law, but it just makes no sense of

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Speaker 2: the historical treating, and I think it makes no sense

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Speaker 2: of how it developed treating.

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Speaker 1: How the sound how the sounds is by arguing, for

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Speaker 1: for the fact that everybody should have a quality. If

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Speaker 1: that is not acceptable to the white tiny tribunal, then

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Speaker 1: the white tiny Tribunal's position must be that there is

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Speaker 1: no equality and Marty has special rights over everybody else.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't agree with that. I mean the tribuniszy

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Speaker 2: is quite clearly. You know, all New Zanders have equal

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Speaker 2: rights of citizenship, but that Article two provides, you know,

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Speaker 2: essential guarantees. Other right for Marty is yeah, other other

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Speaker 2: special rights. Well right, more right, trying to to you

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Speaker 2: things that's tained to Marty as tribal peoples. I mean

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Speaker 2: that's that's, you know, the sterical position.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, Sam, listen, I appreciate it's quite a narly

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Speaker 1: subject and when we probably need more time to deal with.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time, doctor Sam carpent To former

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Speaker 1: White Tonguey tribunal historian now a researcher at Laidlaw College.

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