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Speaker 1: Now it's being reported that Judith Collins is looking at

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Speaker 1: getting rid of DEI hiring in the public service. She's

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Speaker 1: written cabinet papers suggesting that public sector bosses should be

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Speaker 1: allowed to hire based solely on merit and without the

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Speaker 1: current requirements to foster an inclusive workplace. Now she's doing

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Speaker 1: this obviously in her capacity as the Public Service Minister. Judith. Hello, ah,

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Speaker 1: hi Heather, How committed are you to actually wanted to

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Speaker 1: get rid of these rules?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think absolutely commissive. This is something that seems

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Speaker 2: to be some focus of the previous government. But we're

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Speaker 2: also hearing from public servants that they like to think

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Speaker 2: that they are employed on merit, not based on little

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Speaker 2: boxes that have been tipped. So I think it's one

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Speaker 2: of those things that's going to hold the public service

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Speaker 2: back if we can't get the right people for the

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Speaker 2: job and we can't have the widest pool of capable applicants.

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Speaker 1: What are the rules? I mean, are the rules that

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Speaker 1: they don't seem like they're hard and fast. It's just

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Speaker 1: like it has to be a consideration diversity. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing wrong with valuing diversity of thought and experience.

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Speaker 2: Where you're at it too. It's all part of who's

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Speaker 2: the best person for the job. But at the moment,

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Speaker 2: it's really clear that the public service seems to be

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Speaker 2: getting itself wound up and not to make sure that

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Speaker 2: they followed this particular set of rules, such as the

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Speaker 2: equal pay rules, the Human Rights Act, all those sorts

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Speaker 2: of rules, but are already in law, So we're not

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Speaker 2: getting rid of of requirements. What we're saying is to

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Speaker 2: follow that law, not follow just this particular law, and

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Speaker 2: not even mentioning other laws. So it's like, I don't

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Speaker 2: know when Labor rewrote this. It was Chris Hipkins, I

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Speaker 2: think was the minister at the time. They seem to

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Speaker 2: be completely intent on identity politics, and I just don't

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Speaker 2: think the museum tax should be having to pay for that.

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Speaker 2: And it's also it's not fair on public servants who

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Speaker 2: feel sometimes and people accuse them of having been appointed

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Speaker 2: because of theirnicity or some diversity thing when they're just

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Speaker 2: trying to get do the right job. So it's like

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Speaker 2: acknowledging the fact we already have laws for these things.

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Speaker 1: Is there just explain to me exactly what the rules

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Speaker 1: currently are. Is there a rule that says you have

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Speaker 1: to have a woman chief executive or you have to

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Speaker 1: have fifty percent chief at executives or something like. Is

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Speaker 1: there an actual number a target here?

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Speaker 2: No, but there's lots of There are targets, but there's

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Speaker 2: no requirement to actually have a woman chief execs for

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Speaker 2: this or that. But I think it is more important

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, this is over thirty percent of

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Speaker 2: a basically New Zealand's business, and it is important that

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Speaker 2: we know that everyone who's appointed is appointed on them.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, you don't need to convince me. I one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent agree with you. I'm just trying to establish

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Speaker 1: what on earth they've been doing. So has it been

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Speaker 1: sort of at your discretion if you're hiring, And many

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Speaker 1: of them have been overly focused on that?

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Speaker 2: I think of they're overly focused because New Zealanders tend

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Speaker 2: to be like that in particularly the public service. If

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Speaker 2: you give them the tools to say you've got to

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Speaker 2: look at all these things, they'll look at them all right,

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Speaker 2: they'll look at them all day long. If you don't say,

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Speaker 2: just choose the right person for the job. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously may well take into account people's life experience and

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Speaker 2: who they are and what they're you know, everything that

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Speaker 2: they can do. But it's also their understanding that once

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Speaker 2: you make those targets that public servants report on, that's

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Speaker 2: what they will work to. So just say, get the

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Speaker 2: best versus of the job and get their job done.

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Speaker 1: Have you come across any people who have been hired

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Speaker 1: because they are women and actually have been otherwise disappointing?

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Speaker 2: Occasionally I have come across people who I wonder how

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Speaker 2: they were hired. But that's not just women. Of course,

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Speaker 2: there are some times I come across the odd man

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Speaker 2: and I think, well, how the hell did that happen?

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Speaker 2: But that's you know, hither that's me. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to name people.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly I'm after. I want you to name names.

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Speaker 2: Oh you are naughty. No, But I think whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: If you tell public servers their role is to get

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Speaker 2: merit based appointments and not to take too much notice

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Speaker 2: of people's personal lives or anything else, I mean, you're

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Speaker 2: going to get better appointments. But also people know that

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Speaker 2: they're being appointed for the right reasons, not about anything

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Speaker 2: else about their personal lives.

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Speaker 1: Judas, it's good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Judith Collins, Public Service Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy

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Speaker 1: Allen Drive, Listen live to news talks they'd be from

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Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio