1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: So a catch up with an author whose book changed 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: his life. The Subtle Art of Not Giving An F 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: was published back in twenty sixteen, gone on to sell 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: more than twenty million copies in counting, and that, along 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: with a couple of other couple of other self help 6 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: books New York Times best sellers. He's coming back here 7 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: in November as part of his The Subtle Art of 8 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: Not Giving an IF tour and Mike Manson's with us. 9 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: Morning, good morning. Now that I've got. 10 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: You in Los Angeles. Last time we talked to you, 11 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: you were on the other side of the country, but 12 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. What's your Because Los Angeles is one 13 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: of my favorite cities in the world. What's your observation 14 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles and its reputation post covid. 15 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 3: Ooh, Los Angeles is a mixed bag because I think 16 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 3: what most people don't realize is that it's not one 17 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 3: big city. It's like ten small cities all crammed together. 18 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 3: So you can have there can be one experience in 19 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 3: one place, and then you just go three or four 20 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: blocks in one direction and the city completely changes. So 21 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 3: it's a very like heterogenerous experience being here. 22 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: Okay, So good and bad. 23 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: I was going to say, because the reputation from the 24 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: side of the world is Los Angeles is not what 25 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: it was. You would argue differently if you go to 26 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: the right bit of. 27 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 4: It, Well, define what was I mean. 28 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: Hollywood's broke, So that's that's that's definitely one thing. 29 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true that they've had the strike since I 30 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: was last year and listen, I was looking I was 31 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: looking at you with Stephen Bartlett on his Diary of 32 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: a CEO. I think that is as a podcast is 33 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic. 34 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: Correct me if I'm wrong. 35 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: You were playing poker with your friends they wanted to 36 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: get into finance. You thought I might do that as 37 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: is that how your life was unfolding before this whole 38 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: book thing came along pretty much. 39 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: I mean when I was in Universe and when I 40 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 3: was in university. Yeah, I thought I was going to 41 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: go in the finance because I love playing poker. I 42 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 3: was really good at it. All my poker buddies were 43 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: going in the finance. But I think when you're that age, 44 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 3: you don't think much further than that. You just kind 45 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: of like, well, I like this thing, I'm good at it. 46 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: It makes some money. Let's go do that and then 47 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 3: you know, lo and behold it's uh. I hated every 48 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 3: second of it. I couldn't wait to get out. So 49 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 3: so yeah, it was a nice little experiment in my twenties. 50 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: As an exercise in writing a book, getting famous, and 51 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: transforming your life. 52 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: How's it gone for you? 53 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 4: No complaints, No complaints. 54 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: It's one of those things where you know, in some 55 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 3: ways it the reality lives up to your dreams and 56 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 3: your expectations, but in a lot of ways it doesn't 57 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: play out the way you expect. You know, I think 58 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 3: there's it's a it's a natural human tendency to have 59 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: this big dreamer goal and assume like, oh, if I 60 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 3: can just accomplish that, then everything will be amazing, and 61 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: and don't get me wrong, it is amazing, but it 62 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: never plays out the way you expect. It's always messier 63 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 3: and different and and all sorts of challenges that you 64 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 3: didn't you didn't expect along the way. So I'm very 65 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: blessed and grateful, but it's it's been kind of a 66 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 3: crazy ride. 67 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: Okay, So would you change it if you could? 68 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 4: Or not? No? No, no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't take 69 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 4: anything back. 70 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: Now because the idea was and once again correct me 71 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. I think you wanted to get famous, 72 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: didn't you. You wanted to write a book that was 73 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: going to turn your life around. 74 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: That was a goal. 75 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: My goal was to be a best selling author. My 76 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 3: goal was, you know, I wanted to be on the 77 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: New York Times List. I wanted to sell a bunch 78 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: of books. I never fathomed that as much as that 79 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: has happened, would happen like this was completely out of 80 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 3: the realm of possibility to my young, innocent mind. 81 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: Where did you get Where did you get the idea from? 82 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: So I had been blogging for about six years online, 83 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 3: I'd built a pretty steady audience, and you know, I 84 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: when I was young, I consumed a lot of self 85 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: help material. 86 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: And I was. 87 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 3: Kind of disillusioned with it. I thought a lot of 88 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: it was very just bs and Pollyanna and just like 89 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 3: really tell like it was designed to make you feel 90 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: good about your life and not actually like do anything 91 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: about your life. And so in the early twenty tens, 92 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: I started asking myself, like, Okay, what would actually like 93 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 3: if there was a form of self help that was 94 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 3: just very honest about how difficult life's problems can be, 95 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 3: and how difficult the solutions to life's problems can be. 96 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 3: What would that look like and what would it sound like? 97 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 3: And how would you have to write it so that 98 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 3: people would actually enjoy reading it? And that was kind 99 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: of I guess so my own frustrations with the industry 100 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 3: is the starting. 101 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 4: Point for what eventually became my books. 102 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: Were you surprised when it happened? 103 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: Uh? I was surprised the extent of it, you know. 104 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: I I was pretty optimistic when the book came out 105 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: that it was going to do well and that it 106 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: would it would resonate and and sell well. But you know, 107 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: I think it was number one in thirteen different countries. 108 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 3: It sold seventeen million copies worldwide. At this point, you know, 109 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: I'm going back to New Zealand again to do a 110 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 3: speaking event eight years later, you know. 111 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 4: So it's just all of these things are it's the 112 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 4: it's the extent of. 113 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 3: It that was just so mind blowing and still to 114 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: this day is kind of surprising to me. 115 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: Exactly now, without getting too existential about it, is what 116 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: drove all of the success in the book and all 117 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 1: of that sort of thing. I I want to be 118 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: an author, a successful author, versus say I was going 119 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: to do this no matter what. I just happened to 120 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: get famous. 121 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: No, I mean my I've never been primarily motivated by 122 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 3: like fame or money. It's to me, it's like fame 123 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 3: and money are useful ways to measure your progress in 124 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: this field. You know, for me it was I was 125 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: very much driven I still am driven by, for lack 126 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: of a better term, like cleaning up the self help industry, 127 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 3: like like fixing you know, putting out good advice that 128 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 3: actually works and it's actually useful for people and is 129 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 3: practical and the scientifically based. Like that's always been the motivation. 130 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 3: I think just in the process of doing that. A 131 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: good way to measure the impact that you're having is, Okay, 132 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 3: how many books am I selling, how many people are 133 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: reading my my newsletter each week? How many interviews am 134 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 3: I doing? 135 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 4: It? 136 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 3: Like those become useful metrics on away, but they were 137 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: never the point, Like I can honestly say that, you know, 138 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: I probably would have done the same thing even if 139 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 3: it if it the book didn't do nearly as well. 140 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: Does the way of expectations said heavily on your shoulders 141 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: These days because of your success. 142 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: Uh it did for a number of years. I think 143 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 3: there there's like this, you know in the in showbiz, 144 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 3: they call it a sophomore slump, which is when your 145 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 3: debut thing is just massively successful. There's all of this 146 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: expectation and pressure that's put on you for like the 147 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: next thing, and I definitely suffered quite a bit from that. 148 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: I think at this point though, I'm like, I'm far 149 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 3: enough removed in my career to uh. 150 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 4: Well not given f to realize so realize that that. 151 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: I'm going to create a lot of things over the 152 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 3: course of my life, and I'm going to do a 153 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: lot of things, and some of them are going to 154 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: be really successed and some of them are. 155 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 4: Gonna bomb horribly. And that's okay. 156 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: I don't get to choose which ones turn out which, 157 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 3: So I just need to do the best work I 158 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: possibly can. It took me a number of years to get, yeah, 159 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: to that point, but I am there today. 160 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: I think you're very lucky. How old are you? 161 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: I just turned forty, Okay, so you turn forty. I'm 162 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: fifty nine, right, So I feel that I'm like you, 163 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: I've been around a long time. It doesn't matter anymore. 164 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: I just have the best time, and it is what 165 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: it is. But that took me a long time to 166 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: get where I am at. Whereas if you, if you try, 167 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: which is my question, do you truly believe what you 168 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: just said is true? 169 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 4: Uh? 170 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean it's some of 171 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: that is just having enough experience to trust yourself, I think, 172 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 3: and not depend so much on like, oh my god, 173 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 3: are people going to like me? Are they going to 174 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: like my new thing? It's you have to kind of 175 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 3: you need to do enough work in the world to, like, 176 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 3: I guess, earn the confidence to to stay on the path. 177 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 3: But I mean some of it too, is just uh 178 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: you know, financial security, Like it's if the next thing bombs, like, 179 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: I'm gonna be okay, so I don't it. Actually the 180 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: sixth there was a real mindset shift for me when 181 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: I stopped thinking of the subtle art and not giving 182 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: it enough as something that I needed to live up to, 183 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: and started thinking of it as something that like bought 184 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: me creative freedom for the rest. 185 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 4: Of my life. 186 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 187 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: And so you did you come to that conclusion by 188 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: yourself or did somebody point that out to you? Uh? 189 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: I mean I'm I'm sure it Like it was a 190 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: multi year process and I talked to a lot of 191 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 3: people in my life, you know, as I struggled through it. 192 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 3: So but it ultimately, yeah, it was something that I 193 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: had to like bash into my thick skull. 194 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 2: Uh at some point, how do you how do you 195 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: turned it into a show? 196 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: What do you mean when you're coming to New Zealand 197 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 1: you're going to be presenting it as a shot, like like, well, 198 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: what's on stage that wasn't on in the book? Or 199 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: is it what's on stage what was in the book? 200 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 4: Oh? 201 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: No, it's completely different. I mean it will be uh, 202 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 3: you know, inspired by the philosophy of the book. But 203 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: essentially what's on stage is it's ninety percent new material, 204 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: it's new ideas, it's stuff that I've been working on 205 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 3: the past few years. It'll be part talk, lots of jokes, 206 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 3: some fun stories, audience Q and A. They'll be meeting 207 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 3: greets afterwards, so it'll just be a fun night and 208 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 3: for people who you know, want to learn something, want 209 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: to improve something in their lives, want to meet other 210 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 3: people who are on a similar path. 211 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: Fantastic, it'll be great. Fantastic that your view on TikTok. 212 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. If if you do nothing else 213 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: in the world, get people off TikTok. 214 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: Yes please, we can advertise that down there and Arkland 215 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: and well to you know, it's like come to the 216 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 3: Mark Manson show. It's better than TikTok. 217 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: Yes, well exactly, and you're not actually saying much by 218 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: saying that, but anyway, it's going to be. It's going 219 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: to be a good chunk here. Listen, lovely to talk 220 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: with you. Go well and we'll maybe talk when you 221 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: get here. 222 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. 223 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: There we go. 224 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: Mike Benson out of Los Angeles, who show, by the way, 225 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: is Friday, November the fifteenth in Auckland, if you're interested 226 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: in that. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen 227 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: live to news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, 228 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.