1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,853 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZEDB. Follow this 2 00:00:13,053 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,692 --> 00:00:16,852 Speaker 2: Nock. 4 00:00:16,893 --> 00:00:19,613 Speaker 3: What is that percentage in local body elections like at 5 00:00:19,613 --> 00:00:21,572 Speaker 3: the moment the voting percentage. 6 00:00:21,012 --> 00:00:24,413 Speaker 2: Oh, it's pretty damn allful. We're down to about forty percent. 7 00:00:24,613 --> 00:00:28,613 Speaker 2: It's been declining for more than thirty years. When I 8 00:00:28,732 --> 00:00:32,933 Speaker 2: first stood for local government in the nineteen eighties, it 9 00:00:33,093 --> 00:00:36,533 Speaker 2: was at about sixty percent. And the other important comparison 10 00:00:36,853 --> 00:00:39,533 Speaker 2: is actually New Zealanders have a damn good track record 11 00:00:39,893 --> 00:00:43,613 Speaker 2: and their participation in parliamentary elections. We're up at eighty percent. 12 00:00:44,613 --> 00:00:48,773 Speaker 3: What's the logic of polling booths over postal voting that's 13 00:00:48,812 --> 00:00:50,133 Speaker 3: being suggested. 14 00:00:50,973 --> 00:00:53,613 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is that posted stuffed. That is 15 00:00:53,653 --> 00:00:56,892 Speaker 2: that the numbers have just collapsed by about ninety percent. 16 00:00:57,333 --> 00:01:00,213 Speaker 2: We've got a significant number of households that either don't 17 00:01:00,293 --> 00:01:03,853 Speaker 2: have a letterbox or don't use it, and of course 18 00:01:03,853 --> 00:01:07,293 Speaker 2: we're seeing them remove all of postboxes. Even since we 19 00:01:07,413 --> 00:01:12,013 Speaker 2: started the work, there's least frequent mail services and so 20 00:01:12,053 --> 00:01:14,452 Speaker 2: we're just simply saying we've got to find an alternative. 21 00:01:15,173 --> 00:01:18,293 Speaker 2: For about twenty years, governments, both national and labor and 22 00:01:18,373 --> 00:01:20,572 Speaker 2: quite a few councils have said, oh gee, the answer 23 00:01:20,733 --> 00:01:24,653 Speaker 2: is to move to e voting, and despite promising to 24 00:01:24,693 --> 00:01:27,533 Speaker 2: do it, nobody has. And the reason is the moment 25 00:01:27,613 --> 00:01:30,773 Speaker 2: you get into the detail, they just cannot get on 26 00:01:30,853 --> 00:01:34,493 Speaker 2: top of the security problems. The New Zealand Intelligence Service 27 00:01:34,533 --> 00:01:38,292 Speaker 2: has been quite upfront about that. In fact, things around 28 00:01:38,333 --> 00:01:41,812 Speaker 2: cyber attacks have actually got worse, not better, and there 29 00:01:41,853 --> 00:01:45,452 Speaker 2: are authoritarian regimes in the world that are aimed at 30 00:01:45,493 --> 00:01:50,133 Speaker 2: discredited at undermining our democracy. It just makes e voting 31 00:01:50,293 --> 00:01:54,413 Speaker 2: too risky and that really only leaves you with the 32 00:01:54,613 --> 00:01:58,573 Speaker 2: tried and true method that we use for our parliamentary elections. 33 00:01:59,053 --> 00:02:00,933 Speaker 2: And the great thing about that is that we know 34 00:02:01,053 --> 00:02:03,653 Speaker 2: it works, and it's also something that people are very 35 00:02:03,653 --> 00:02:07,413 Speaker 2: familiar with that would work by people having access to 36 00:02:07,453 --> 00:02:11,293 Speaker 2: following booth to two weeks, that the polling booths would 37 00:02:11,293 --> 00:02:16,213 Speaker 2: be in those places that people frequent, supermarkets, in shopping malls, 38 00:02:16,493 --> 00:02:20,452 Speaker 2: in libraries, and that it is as similar as possible 39 00:02:20,653 --> 00:02:22,532 Speaker 2: to what happens at our general elections. 40 00:02:23,653 --> 00:02:26,972 Speaker 3: Real me seems to work though with some government you know, 41 00:02:26,972 --> 00:02:30,053 Speaker 3: I've just been involved in using ME for some government 42 00:02:30,053 --> 00:02:33,213 Speaker 3: admin that I had to do so why isn't it 43 00:02:33,453 --> 00:02:35,893 Speaker 3: good enough for voting. If it's good enough for a 44 00:02:35,972 --> 00:02:38,172 Speaker 3: kids signing up for student loans or passports. 45 00:02:39,133 --> 00:02:43,413 Speaker 2: Well, the things with things likes of financial transactions is 46 00:02:43,453 --> 00:02:45,852 Speaker 2: if you get it wrong, at least it can in 47 00:02:45,972 --> 00:02:49,653 Speaker 2: future be undone. That's not true for voting. And of 48 00:02:49,653 --> 00:02:52,893 Speaker 2: course it's also really important and essential to the voting 49 00:02:52,933 --> 00:02:56,452 Speaker 2: system that it is a secret ballot and so if 50 00:02:56,532 --> 00:03:01,493 Speaker 2: somehow your vote was changed, you'd never ever know. Now 51 00:03:01,693 --> 00:03:05,373 Speaker 2: it is a matter of record that there are cybersecurity 52 00:03:05,373 --> 00:03:10,093 Speaker 2: attacks that have occurred on eleectoral systems, and what the experts, 53 00:03:10,133 --> 00:03:14,613 Speaker 2: including the New Zealand soissay is it's just too risky. 54 00:03:14,813 --> 00:03:17,413 Speaker 4: So going back to the voting both booth system, do 55 00:03:17,493 --> 00:03:20,173 Speaker 4: you envision it or does the report envision it exactly? 56 00:03:20,213 --> 00:03:22,213 Speaker 4: Like how we have the general Body that it would 57 00:03:22,252 --> 00:03:25,413 Speaker 4: take place on a Saturday, that there'd be multiple booths around, 58 00:03:25,532 --> 00:03:27,893 Speaker 4: that there would be a bit of hype behind it 59 00:03:27,972 --> 00:03:30,412 Speaker 4: to remind people it's on and hopefully get them into 60 00:03:30,413 --> 00:03:30,813 Speaker 4: that booth. 61 00:03:31,653 --> 00:03:34,733 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And what's more, we want to recruit you know, 62 00:03:34,773 --> 00:03:37,533 Speaker 2: the orange man and his dog that's used by the 63 00:03:37,573 --> 00:03:40,373 Speaker 2: Electoral Commission. What we do at the moment is you 64 00:03:40,413 --> 00:03:43,693 Speaker 2: have seventy eight councils all doing their ad hot campaigns 65 00:03:43,693 --> 00:03:46,693 Speaker 2: to get out and vote. They only spend about forty 66 00:03:46,733 --> 00:03:50,653 Speaker 2: five cents per voter. The Electoral Commission spends on average 67 00:03:50,693 --> 00:03:53,613 Speaker 2: four dollars a voter with those campaigns, with the Orange 68 00:03:53,613 --> 00:03:56,453 Speaker 2: man and dog, you get what you pay for. We 69 00:03:56,453 --> 00:03:59,693 Speaker 2: shouldn't be surprised that we get such a pathetic result 70 00:03:59,773 --> 00:04:03,373 Speaker 2: in local elections when the campaigns poorly coordinate that we 71 00:04:03,493 --> 00:04:05,933 Speaker 2: spend very little on it. And I do think that 72 00:04:06,093 --> 00:04:09,333 Speaker 2: New Zealanders understand the message they get from the orange 73 00:04:09,373 --> 00:04:10,893 Speaker 2: maor and the dog, and we n it works. 74 00:04:11,253 --> 00:04:13,733 Speaker 3: So when you say polling booths and supermarkets, they're going 75 00:04:13,773 --> 00:04:16,693 Speaker 3: to be have to be manned, aren't they, And that'll 76 00:04:16,693 --> 00:04:17,333 Speaker 3: get pretty. 77 00:04:17,093 --> 00:04:19,493 Speaker 2: Exchens as they are, yeah, just as they are for 78 00:04:19,573 --> 00:04:21,773 Speaker 2: general elections. So effectively, what we're saying is, look, the 79 00:04:21,773 --> 00:04:24,493 Speaker 2: Electoral Commission hops out once every three years. They've got 80 00:04:24,533 --> 00:04:26,933 Speaker 2: all the infrastructure there. Let's just roll them out when 81 00:04:26,933 --> 00:04:28,773 Speaker 2: we do the local elections and make it as similar 82 00:04:28,813 --> 00:04:31,853 Speaker 2: as possible. In our report, we also think it would 83 00:04:31,893 --> 00:04:34,773 Speaker 2: be sensible for us to move to a four year term. 84 00:04:35,053 --> 00:04:38,853 Speaker 2: Our perfect outcome would be for both Parliament and councils 85 00:04:38,853 --> 00:04:41,293 Speaker 2: to move to a four year term. The public has 86 00:04:41,333 --> 00:04:44,933 Speaker 2: an election once every two years and it alternates between 87 00:04:44,933 --> 00:04:47,773 Speaker 2: a local and a national election. Of course, if there 88 00:04:47,893 --> 00:04:49,733 Speaker 2: was a change to four years, it would need to 89 00:04:49,773 --> 00:04:53,293 Speaker 2: be by referendum. Parliament last week voted for a bill 90 00:04:53,333 --> 00:04:56,093 Speaker 2: to do just that. We're just asking that if you're 91 00:04:56,093 --> 00:04:58,293 Speaker 2: going to move to four year terms with the referendum 92 00:04:58,373 --> 00:05:00,693 Speaker 2: for Parliament, that you do so for councils as well. 93 00:05:00,773 --> 00:05:03,613 Speaker 3: We're talking to local government New Zealand Electoral Reformed Chair 94 00:05:03,773 --> 00:05:07,333 Speaker 3: and Nelson Mayor Nick Smith. Is the problem that people 95 00:05:07,453 --> 00:05:11,013 Speaker 3: just don't care and it's too complicated. Who has time 96 00:05:11,053 --> 00:05:15,413 Speaker 3: to research all the candidates? You know how busy people 97 00:05:15,453 --> 00:05:18,453 Speaker 3: are these days. I mean, you know, I'm interested in politics, 98 00:05:18,453 --> 00:05:21,893 Speaker 3: but when I go into when I'm voting and it 99 00:05:22,013 --> 00:05:23,813 Speaker 3: arrives in the mail, I look down. I go, I've 100 00:05:23,853 --> 00:05:27,253 Speaker 3: got no idea, absolutely no idea. And you know in 101 00:05:27,253 --> 00:05:30,653 Speaker 3: a general election it's divided into parties. You go, well, 102 00:05:30,773 --> 00:05:34,253 Speaker 3: this person is generally in the area I want to vote, 103 00:05:34,253 --> 00:05:35,933 Speaker 3: and that that can happen. You can't that there is 104 00:05:36,013 --> 00:05:39,093 Speaker 3: sort of allegiances there. But is it just too complicated 105 00:05:39,093 --> 00:05:39,493 Speaker 3: for people. 106 00:05:40,733 --> 00:05:43,933 Speaker 2: I think your reflections are exactly what we've found in 107 00:05:43,973 --> 00:05:47,213 Speaker 2: our research and work, and that is, even if you 108 00:05:47,253 --> 00:05:49,933 Speaker 2: do the changes we're proposing, we need to be careful 109 00:05:49,973 --> 00:05:52,693 Speaker 2: to keep the voting system sensible. If you say to 110 00:05:52,733 --> 00:05:55,653 Speaker 2: a vote a look, there's forty candidates, go pick five 111 00:05:55,733 --> 00:05:58,693 Speaker 2: of them, they're just going to be overwhelmed and not bother. 112 00:05:59,133 --> 00:06:02,013 Speaker 2: We do think there's an opportunity to use modern technology, 113 00:06:02,053 --> 00:06:04,693 Speaker 2: So we're suggesting in the report that people and there 114 00:06:04,733 --> 00:06:06,813 Speaker 2: be a website of which you can actually watch a 115 00:06:06,853 --> 00:06:09,893 Speaker 2: short video with suggestives three minutes and that you know, 116 00:06:10,053 --> 00:06:13,573 Speaker 2: I've actually seen people. Is actually a bit more interesting 117 00:06:13,693 --> 00:06:16,573 Speaker 2: than just one hundred and fifty words statement. The last 118 00:06:16,573 --> 00:06:18,653 Speaker 2: that we would add in that area is that there 119 00:06:18,693 --> 00:06:21,533 Speaker 2: is a job to do to try and ensure that 120 00:06:21,573 --> 00:06:24,453 Speaker 2: people have got good information about candidates, and the report's 121 00:06:24,493 --> 00:06:25,293 Speaker 2: got some ideas on that. 122 00:06:25,493 --> 00:06:27,333 Speaker 3: Yeah, will people soon and complain a lot in the 123 00:06:27,493 --> 00:06:29,933 Speaker 3: in the as they do with who gets in, but 124 00:06:29,933 --> 00:06:32,373 Speaker 3: don't necessarily take the effort to learn who's going and 125 00:06:32,493 --> 00:06:34,573 Speaker 3: vote on it. Is there any finally, is there any 126 00:06:34,573 --> 00:06:36,653 Speaker 3: talk of compulsory voting? Will that ever be a thing 127 00:06:36,693 --> 00:06:39,253 Speaker 3: in New Zealand? As it is in Australia. 128 00:06:39,413 --> 00:06:41,693 Speaker 2: Oh well, they do have compulsory voting in Australia, but 129 00:06:41,733 --> 00:06:44,133 Speaker 2: they come from convict stock and they probably need something 130 00:06:44,133 --> 00:06:46,613 Speaker 2: that's stronger to keep them in line. I think it 131 00:06:46,613 --> 00:06:48,413 Speaker 2: would be a mistake to go all the way to 132 00:06:48,613 --> 00:06:51,573 Speaker 2: compulsory voting. In the New Zealand legal system, it is 133 00:06:51,613 --> 00:06:54,893 Speaker 2: compulsory to be on the roll, but not to the vote, 134 00:06:55,133 --> 00:06:56,893 Speaker 2: and we're not recommending change to that. 135 00:06:57,333 --> 00:06:59,933 Speaker 4: Very interesting and Nick, thank you very much for your time, 136 00:06:59,973 --> 00:07:00,773 Speaker 4: really appreciate it. 137 00:07:00,853 --> 00:07:03,893 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks. The'd be listen 138 00:07:03,933 --> 00:07:06,893 Speaker 1: live on air or online and keep our shows with 139 00:07:07,013 --> 00:07:10,173 Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.