WEBVTT - Government considers phasing out telco obligations in sector review 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.880 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.360 daily podcast presented by. 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:12.440 The New Zealand Herald. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.799 For the past month, kiwis have been able to have 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.680 their say on proposals to change our telecommunications sector. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.360 Minister for Regulation David Seymour. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.760 Has said these services are as essential as power and water, 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.240 and that changing the way the sector is regulated will. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.040 Affect almost every kiwi. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:42.640 Changes could include introducing a consumer code, replacing or phasing 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:47.839 out current obligation frameworks, and getting rid of obsolete rules. 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.080 But what does all of that actually mean? 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.880 And do enough New Zealanders know how these changes could 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.640 affect our everyday lives. Today on the front Page, Tech 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.840 common Bill Bennett is with us to dive into the 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:07.760 recommendations and why consumers should care about how their connectivity 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:17.400 is regulated. First off, Bill, do you think the telecommunications 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.880 sector's regulatory framework is fit for purpose at the moment? 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:27.119 It's pretty good. I mean it's working. In terms of competition. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.280 Our market is as competitive as any market could be. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.520 Compare our telecommunications market. We save a supermarket sector and 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:40.759 it's intensely competitive. It's so competitive that the companies sometimes 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.320 winge that. You know, it's so competitive they can't make 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.280 as much profit as they might make, So from that 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.280 point of view, it's working. From the consumer point of view, 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.320 it's working too, because there's a lot of things in 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.840 place to protect consumers and keep consumers from being exploited. 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.200 So from all but from those points of view, it's 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.520 working quite well. There are some issues that probably need 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.520 to be addressed, and there's a regulatory review going on 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.760 right now which is going. 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:13.359 Over those issues. 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.440 One of the problems historically is that telecommunications, like anything 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:23.160 in technology, moves quite fast, and legislation doesn't tend to 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:28.200 move very fast. But u Zeeland we have something called 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.919 the Telecommunications Act, and I think the Telecommunications Act goes 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.600 back to two thousand and one. Since two thousand and one, 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.600 there's been thirteen amendments, so it's amended every couple of years, 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.120 and a lot of those amendments along the way have 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.440 been to update it. So it had a really big 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.520 amendment about five or six years ago to get ready 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.360 for the fiber regime. So there's a huge set of 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:55.600 new rules coming in for fiber. Fact, the last amendment 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.000 I think was in March this year, so it's not 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.079 like it's left to just you and get out of date. 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.480 Why are they fiddling with it then? If it's doing 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:06.120 all right well, I. 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:06.919 Think two things. 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:10.560 One is there's a bit of ideology in that the 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.320 government wants to cut down on the amount of regulations 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.280 there are, full stop. And it's a good place to 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:21.600 start because it's although it's a very complicated set of regulations, 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.680 as on, the industry is relatively simple. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.080 It's only a. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.800 Handful of big players, so it's relatively easy to deal with. 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:29.280 It's much easier to deal with that than some of 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.120 the tackling some of the harder things, like say supermarkets. 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.000 And the other thing is is there's some pressure from 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:42.000 inside the industry to reform some of the regulation, but 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.920 in general there's not a lot of push from inside 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:47.280 the sector to reform things. 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.800 What are the most significant recommendations do you think? 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.200 Well, at the review that's coming along at the moment, 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.240 they haven't got recommendations yet. They've just asked for input 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.720 from the industry and from various for the groups. I 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.280 think they're due to report this Thursday on that input 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.560 from the industry and from stakeholders. There's I don't think 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.280 there are actual recommendations at mom where there are topics 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.120 that they're looking at, and one of the things they're 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.640 looking at, for example, is whether the rules around fiber, 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.479 for example, are up to date. What they are, you know, 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.880 it pretty much is, but there are some there are 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.800 some kind of historic things in there that maybe we 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.040 don't need anymore, Like a lot of the rules that 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.400 are around to do with copper networks or the copper 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.960 networks are going out there. But by twenty thirty the 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.039 copper networks will be completely closed and we're down to 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.279 perhaps one hundred and twenty thousand people that are relying 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.000 on copy to day, which isn't very much in the 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.200 bigger scheme of things. So there's a lot of fussing 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.440 over things that no longer really apply. It's a bit 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:54.080 like the old thing with the London taxes having to 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:55.880 carry a bale of hay on the top of the 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.200 horses long after the horses are gone and the taxes 0:04:59.279 --> 0:04:59.839 rulled cars. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:06.159 Tell me what is the telecommunications service obligations and why 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.680 should it be phased out or replaced? 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:10.880 I know that that's something that they're looking at. 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:18.599 Yeah, look when when it's a historic thing. Telecom originally 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.600 was the post office, and it was government owned. It 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.400 was state controlled, and it was run as a public service, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.960 and it had public service obligations. And some of the 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.320 things were like remote places would get a telephone box 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.479 and a telephone line and they didn't have to pay 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:35.880 more for it. So even if you were in the 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.919 middle of nowhere, you had some kind of telecommunications. The 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.560 industry was seen as it was you know, i'd go 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.320 back one hundred years. It was seen as a nation 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.320 building exercise to have all that in place, so that 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:49.480 you know, a cowcocky on a farm in the middle 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:54.080 of nowhere could ring home for the weekend or whatever 0:05:54.240 --> 0:06:00.240 from a coin box. Then around about the late eighties 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.360 it got privatized. Telecom got privatized and it got bought 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.560 out by at the time some overseas interests, and the 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.680 obligations were put in place so that the things that 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.080 had been social goods that were around forever until then 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:24.640 continued after privatization and then when competitors came in that 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.240 the idea was the things that keep happening, and some 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.159 of those things are still important today, like one one 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.279 one calling, for example, is part of that, and there's 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.560 a service for it's a relay service for people that 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.360 are hard of hearing, so that you don't need to 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:38.840 listen to. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:39.479 A voice call. 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.880 There are other ways of getting the information for those people, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.600 and that's all paid for by the government, but it 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.719 has to be provided by the industry. So what we're 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.479 what the TSO is really all about. It's about getting 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:57.160 private companies to continue those services, and there's money for that, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.240 some government money, and some of it comes from a 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.680 levee which is charged on the industry, and the industry 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.720 currently pays ten million dollars a year. The amount of 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.080 the company pays is based on how much money they make, 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.960 so Spark would pay the most, and I think Corus 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.200 pays the second most. Then it's one and two degrees 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.760 and so on, and those four companies probably pay about 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.960 ninety eighty five ninety percent of the levy, and all 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:23.760 the smaller ones to pay a small amount. But the 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.680 money that comes in from that is used to do 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:32.800 things like subsidized rural calling, subsidized services that are necessary, and. 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.800 That's really what it's about. 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:39.200 The thing is is that it was essential when telecom 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.680 was privatized for those things to carry on. It's not 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:48.320 so important today when you've got mobile phones and satellite 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:52.200 communications in remote places and so on, and alternative options. 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.560 But there's a there's a second area of concern, and. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.440 It's what's called the digital divide, as a divide between 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.240 rich p and poor people. And poor people have difficulty 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.080 paying for some of these services, and they certainly have 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:09.480 difficulty paying for things like computers and so on to 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:14.400 use digital services. But there's also a rural digital divide 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.320 that is that services don't reach everywhere. The fiber network 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.080 goes to eighty seven percent of the country, but that 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.160 leaves thirteen percent which is off the fiber network, and 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.040 some of those people are still dependent on copper lines, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.400 and that's kind of got to be looked after. 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:30.160 Buy everyone. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.920 It's a sort of society problem, not an industry problem, and. 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:35.720 That's what it's about. 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.520 And it's as you say, it's likely to be phased out, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.800 given that we're moving to a world where everyone everything's 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.320 on mobile, the copper network's gone, and if you're really 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.360 stuck out in the whats you can use satellite. 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.199 So is there a fear though that if we get 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.800 rid of all of the rules and regulations, that's say, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:59.080 a town with a population of ten could be left 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.920 out and left off the map because they're not then 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.280 you know, seen as profitable for those big companies to 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.040 install those networks. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.360 Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.080 And but back in the day of when it was 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:16.040 a public service, public service. I talked to the people 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.160 who ran Telecom back in the eighties. I've been around 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:20.760 this business for a long time, and I remember someone 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:22.960 telling me that there was a phone line to the 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.040 Wronger Wrong a lodge which is right at the bottom 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.160 of the wire rapper on the coast, and it was 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.400 the longest single stretch of copper copper wiring in the 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.480 network at the times. The head of Telecom the time 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.440 told me that it costs literally costs millions every year 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.520 for that line to exist. But that was being subsidized 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.640 by all the people in Karori in places like that 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.560 where you know where they live next to each other 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.560 and right close to an exchange and it costs nothing 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.920 to connect their lines, So that that kind of cross 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.440 substy was there, and it's not there in a commercial era. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.679 That's that would be true, excepted is there in some 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:02.160 ways because the fiber network build has been subsidized and 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:07.079 the fiber network going into rural towns has been paid 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:11.719 for by various government projects over the years. During the lockdowns, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.000 there was a big rural development budget was a lot 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.160 of that money was spent on sending viber into those 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:20.120 regional areas. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.360 If we don't have those kind of obligations in place, though, 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.800 do we run the risk of, you know, having some 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.320 towns and some people who live rurally just cut off 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.560 the map. I mean, I know that three G is 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.040 being phased out, and I don't know if you've tried 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.400 to drive the length of the country, but there are 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.319 definitely some pretty large dark spots in between there we 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.160 can't get internet absolutely. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.520 And again some of that TDL money, that levee money 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.559 has been spent on something called the Rural Connectivity Group, 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:56.280 which is it's basically the three main tailcoats that Spark 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.360 two degrees and one in a joint venture and they 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:03.640 built town was along remote roads and Chorus puts fiber 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.400 between some of the tech Most of the towers have 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.439 fiber to them and it goes to place. It's like 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.840 Milford Sound. There's there's a fiber now that goes into 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:15.120 Milford Sound and there's there's phone towls all along that road, 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.840 you know, and that's a pretty remote road. But we're 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.000 not there with one hundred percent coverage for sure, but 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:27.559 we improved, it's massively improved, and that those builds are 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.160 generally paid for by governments or by the. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:30.840 Row from the levee. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.319 At the end of last year, Octas was here with 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.240 a twelve million dollar fine over people not being able. 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:42.200 To connect to triple zero. 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.560 Now it has happened again, and only this time at 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.559 least three people have died. What is next, brobdis If 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.000 your network fails on a triple zero call, your phone 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.320 is meant to switch over to a different network to 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.960 get through. This is a mechanism Intelgoes must have in 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.640 place as for this act. And in this instance it's 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.280 clear that even the backup plans failed. Customers warning signs 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.280 were there in twenty twenty three, and now Australia's Communications 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.920 Minister says the telco giant will face significant consequences. 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.680 Now we've seen in Australia recently exactly how reliant we 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.920 are on our telco sectors. Australian officials have promised that 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:24.160 Optus will face significant consequences over a system's outage and 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.800 it's linked to multiple deaths. The incident left hundreds of 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.920 people across more than half of the country unable to 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.079 call emergency services for thirteen hours. 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:38.440 At least three people died as a result. Could something 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:39.880 similar happen here? 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.880 Yes, but no, And by that I mean it's complicated. 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.240 But look, when cyclone Gabrielle came through, people were cut 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.040 off for a long periods of time. The networks are 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:59.880 quite resilient, but they're not resilient enough, and Gabrielle exposed that. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.200 Up until Gabrielle, we thought that if you had a 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.320 handful of cables going into an area like I think 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.760 it's Hawk's Bay that was worst affected towns like Wairoa 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.280 in Hawks Bay, they had a handful of lines going 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.720 into those places, but the lines went across bridges and 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.280 the bridges were wiped out and a couple of lines, 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.959 And it turns out that having tours three lines in 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:22.600 isn't enough. 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:23.280 You need more. 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.000 So we're building resilience into the network and we've been 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:28.960 doing a lot of work on that since Gabrielle and 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.320 Gabrielle's it was quite a wake up call for that. 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.160 But the other thing is is that increasingly we can 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.280 use satellites to go around that as well. So if 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.839 an area if part of the country's cut off because 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.760 the main links are down, satellite can fill in the gaps. 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:50.400 And you probably won't be able to stream Netflix in 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.640 high definition if you're in one of those areas time, 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.120 but you will be able to make voice calls, and 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.840 you will be able to make basic email calls and 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.880 send text messages and on. So it's less likely in 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.400 New Zealand because we do have more resilience. But the 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:09.320 interesting thing about that Australian episode was that the answer 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:10.960 to it, the government sees the answer to it, and 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.800 the industry sees the answer to that as fixing the regulations, 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:16.520 which is back to what we were talking about in 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.240 the first place, about those regular all those regulations that 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.240 they're in place for a purpose. They're not there just 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.880 because you know, pureaucrats enjoy imposing rules on the industry. 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:25.320 Right. 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.760 So if the Australia is looking at more regulations and 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:31.960 we're looking at scaling them. 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:36.120 Back, yes, yes, there's an element of truth in that. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.160 We've probably my guess is is that the review is 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.160 not going to scale them back that much. There'll be 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.520 some tinkering, There'll be some things that go. There's probably 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.720 a couple of things which are past their cell by date, 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.000 like the rules around copper and so on. But in general, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.960 I think we have and it's widely understood and even 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.040 within the industry it's widely understood. We have actually very 0:14:58.080 --> 0:14:59.920 good regulations in this area. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.760 In terms of I mean you see something like the 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.480 you know, have your say for the Telecommunications sector regulate 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.680 regulatory framework and your every day key, we would just 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.600 look at that and turn the page. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.160 Right, Why should every day key we care about this? 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.200 There are people that are organized to do that. So, 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.400 for example, in rural areas, there are groups that lobby 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.560 for rural telecommunications. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.720 I was that there's a Connecting a Toroa summit which 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.080 was in Hamilton earlier this year, which was run by 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.800 two ants now two ants is that is used to 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.400 be the Telecommunications Users Group of New Zealander, but it's 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:43.040 now the Technology Users of New Zealand. They advocate on 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.720 behalf of users and they would and so they were 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.720 put in submissions to things like that, but also things 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.359 like the Young Rural Doctors would put in a submission 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.200 and Federated Farmers would put in, you know, put in submissions, 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.800 and there are rural women's groups and so on which 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.560 submit so you so rather than having to read this 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.960 stuff yourself and get on top of what can be 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.880 quite complicated sets of rules and so on, you know, 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.360 go and talk to your Go and talk to one 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.400 of those organizations that would represent you. 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.200 Thanks for joining us, Bill, You're welcome. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.360 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.280 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.400 at NZDHERLD, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.880 produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.560 our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.760 on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:50.280 Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:00.240 Yeah,