Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkin and I'm Louise Aria, and this
Speaker 1: is season four of our New Zealand Herald podcast The
Speaker 1: Little Things Good to have you with us, And this
Speaker 1: podcast we talk to experts and find out all the
Speaker 1: little things you.
Speaker 2: Need to know to improve all areas of your life.
Speaker 1: And today we're talking about something that we all do
Speaker 1: experience in life, sooner or later, and that's grief.
Speaker 2: I'm excited about today's conversation because who doesn't struggle with grief?
Speaker 2: And we've got an amazing guest with us today who
Speaker 2: we will introduce in just a moment, who is going
Speaker 2: to give us some practical tools to help us live
Speaker 2: even while we continue to grieve. Well, maybe you could
Speaker 2: say it's going to help us to grieve while we
Speaker 2: continue to live.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, either or all works. It's a bit of
Speaker 1: a beast, isn't that grief? You have to go through it.
Speaker 1: That will touch everybody's lives. It's inevitable, like taxes.
Speaker 2: That is true. Louise, Well, what's your experience with death
Speaker 2: and grief?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it's a little bit depressing, isn't it? To
Speaker 1: start on that note? But actually no, it's not because
Speaker 1: I've lived through it, and I've survived through it. I
Speaker 1: lost my mother when I was thirteen. There were five
Speaker 1: of us, we all lost our mother. Obviously, my father
Speaker 1: lost his wife. So that was that wasn't my first time.
Speaker 1: I mean I'd lost a couple of grandfathers before that,
Speaker 1: but that was first. You know, that was super close obviously,
Speaker 1: and there was an illness that preceded it, so I
Speaker 1: guess we were kind of grieving before she even died. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: that that sucked. What about major? It's pretty big?
Speaker 2: That is major? Nothing quite so major. I mean I
Speaker 2: have farewelled three grandparents, a couple of friends in my
Speaker 2: early in my teens and early twenties, lost two beautiful
Speaker 2: baby nephews, which is a heartbreak. I wouldn't wish on
Speaker 2: my worst enemy. Three cats over my lifetime.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Pete ski play Pete skiing, don't they?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And then of course you know lots of you know,
Speaker 2: friends and colleagues, family and friends who you've also kind
Speaker 2: of gone through that process with.
Speaker 1: Well, we probably don't get to midlife, de we without
Speaker 1: experiencing some grief, and we also probably know that there
Speaker 1: is going to well, there is definitely going to be more.
Speaker 2: I think my thoughts on death and grief have evolved
Speaker 2: as I've grown older and I've experienced more. I still
Speaker 2: don't think I know what to say and how to
Speaker 2: deal with it properly, but I'm a lot more open
Speaker 2: to it and accepting of it, and open minded for
Speaker 2: other people's experiences of it as well.
Speaker 1: That's right, And I think I care less whether I
Speaker 1: have the right thing to say. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's right. Maybe our guests can inform us, but I
Speaker 1: care less if I say I have no words, I
Speaker 1: have no you know, when it's somebody else experiencing that.
Speaker 1: And of course grief doesn't necessarily always mean you've someone's died.
Speaker 1: It could mean you've just lost someone to you, you know,
Speaker 1: a partner, a divorce, children leaving home. Grief comes and
Speaker 1: all sorts of forms, and obviously the worst one is
Speaker 1: death because you can't come back from it and you
Speaker 1: have to kind of live through it. I lost a
Speaker 1: dear sister in law and she was only forty one,
Speaker 1: and you know that was really really weird because I
Speaker 1: was an adult, you know, it wasn't a child's sense
Speaker 1: of grief, so and I had to watch my brother just,
Speaker 1: you know, trudge through that pain and his family and
Speaker 1: our family brought us closer together. And also watch my
Speaker 1: children lose an auntie. So that was but it was
Speaker 1: a really, really beautiful thing. But I wish she was
Speaker 1: still here.
Speaker 2: Obviously, it doesn't seem to matter how prepared you might be,
Speaker 2: how many times you've experienced it, all the circumstances around it.
Speaker 2: A devastating loss is just that devastating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Oh gosh, I just can't think. I
Speaker 1: just I think that it's just I think, as we
Speaker 1: say it's inevitable, we don't have to be We can
Speaker 1: get some guidance from it. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: we're looking for today because listeners we'll also have had
Speaker 1: their own experience of death, and I wonder if it's
Speaker 1: as as Yvonne's experience of death as uniquers the experience of.
Speaker 2: Life most likely, So there are ways that we can
Speaker 2: learn to grieve and get on with life. And today
Speaker 2: I'm delighted to be joined by doctor Denise Quinlan. Denise
Speaker 2: is the director of the New Zealand Institute of Well
Speaker 2: Being and Resilience. She is also the founder of Coping
Speaker 2: with Loss which she co created alongside doctor Lucy Hone.
Speaker 2: Coping with Loss has a range of programs to help
Speaker 2: us do just that. Denise, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: being with us.
Speaker 3: Welcome, pleasure, delighted to be here.
Speaker 2: We all experience loss at some point in our lives.
Speaker 2: Are we any good at dealing with it?
Speaker 3: You see a big general question, And I'm kind of
Speaker 3: going to say, in some places we are, and in
Speaker 3: some places we're not. And you know what I would
Speaker 3: come back to is, once upon a time, all of
Speaker 3: our cultures were good at dealing with death. It's become
Speaker 3: a contemporary taboo and that we could spend a lot
Speaker 3: of time talking about why that is. But the truth
Speaker 3: is it is it's I think right now we have
Speaker 3: this terrible desire to feel like we are in control
Speaker 3: of our lives and everything about it, and death is
Speaker 3: the thing we can't control.
Speaker 2: When do you think there was this switch to us
Speaker 2: not being able to manage it so?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 3: Well, if you think about Tani Hannah in Tiamaori, or
Speaker 3: wakes and funerals in Irish culture, it's always been there,
Speaker 3: you know. So I grew up in Dublin and I
Speaker 3: will have gone to aunts and uncle's grandparents' funerals, neighbors
Speaker 3: as a child and a teenager, and I remember working
Speaker 3: in London and there was a death and none of
Speaker 3: my colleagues had been in the late twenties, had been
Speaker 3: to a funeral, and I was like, what's going on here?
Speaker 3: Do people not die in England? You know? And then
Speaker 3: came to New Zealand and you know, I was in
Speaker 3: kind of rock climbing and paragliding community and we had
Speaker 3: a friend who died and the Irish responses gather around,
Speaker 3: wrap around the person, provide support, and I was met
Speaker 3: with people whose response was, oh, we best just don't
Speaker 3: don't intrude. We might say the wrong thing, so stay away.
Speaker 3: People might not want us to see them grieving. All
Speaker 3: of that, and I mean, you'll know better than me
Speaker 3: when stiff upper lip really had its heyday in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: You know that's interesting, Yeah, because I didn't grow up
Speaker 1: in Ireland, but I'm Irish Catholic, and certainly like you had,
Speaker 1: it wasn't uncommon to go to someone's home and the
Speaker 1: body would be there and you would, you know, open coffin.
Speaker 1: They wasn't didn't even didn't really even blink. You know,
Speaker 1: it was just what you did, and it was a
Speaker 1: wrap around. And also people were pretty good at telling
Speaker 1: you when you needed to pop off, you know, go away,
Speaker 1: we need space now. Yes, but it was your nun's everybody.
Speaker 1: Everybody was there.
Speaker 3: It's really I mean, you were there as a child
Speaker 3: and it was like and sometimes it was like go
Speaker 3: and kiss you granny, and you're yes, it's a dead body,
Speaker 3: and then you realize it's not the end of the world,
Speaker 3: and you know, it's all okay.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting you mentioned that because I've noticed recently
Speaker 2: when I talked to people my parents of my parents generation,
Speaker 2: they're all saying, oh, you know, I really like the
Speaker 2: way people are doing funerals.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: They're not having a funeral with the coffin. They're having
Speaker 2: a private cremation, and then we have we have a memorial,
Speaker 2: so you know, we're not having to go and look
Speaker 2: at this coffin as if this coffin was I don't
Speaker 2: know whether they find that it's upsetting for them or
Speaker 2: what it is, but I thought that was a really
Speaker 2: interesting coming to make that we're like, oh no, we
Speaker 2: don't like having to go to a funeral with a coffin.
Speaker 2: It's so much nicer going to just the memorial with
Speaker 2: the urn.
Speaker 3: Where we can pretend no one died and we're not
Speaker 3: reminded by a symbol of our collective mortality.
Speaker 1: Oh that's it, isn't it? On the money? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like a good ball. It's gonna sound weird, but when
Speaker 1: you first see that coffin and you cannot contain the
Speaker 1: feelings anymore, that that person is in there right, and
Speaker 1: all comes.
Speaker 3: Out, And what the coffin does is make it real,
Speaker 3: and then your body and your emotions get the reality
Speaker 3: and express what they need to express.
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 3: So in traditional Irish funerals there were women who came
Speaker 3: as keener's and keener comes from the Irish word quina,
Speaker 3: which means to cry. And it's interesting that you know
Speaker 3: tany hell and tongy means cry. And at my grandmother's
Speaker 3: funeral there were women keening, and it is it cuts
Speaker 3: right through the middle of you to hear this kind
Speaker 3: of wailing, and well, you'd have to be a stone
Speaker 3: to sit there and not be moved or cry, you know.
Speaker 3: And so at some level they were like the expression
Speaker 3: of emotion and sadness is helpful and if you're not
Speaker 3: inclined to do it, wow, we're going to help you
Speaker 3: on your way, you know.
Speaker 1: So they were there to help you on your way,
Speaker 1: help you.
Speaker 3: Crys were there to remind everybody, and it literally accentuated
Speaker 3: the grief they're wailing. So gosh, there's permission for you
Speaker 3: to shed a tear.
Speaker 1: And there are actually a lot of emotions at a funeral.
Speaker 1: I mean, who hasn't caught the giggles completely? You know,
Speaker 1: So it's the whole gimmut of the emotions. It's a
Speaker 1: place where you can actually just.
Speaker 2: Just trying to think about the last time I caught
Speaker 2: the giggles at the funeral.
Speaker 3: We had a line in that there's a beautiful Hozier song.
Speaker 3: She's a gay lot of funeral.
Speaker 1: Oh cute. Yeah, well you'll think about it next time
Speaker 1: you get a little funeral.
Speaker 2: I'll go, oh yeah, Louise is right, Denise? Is this
Speaker 2: such a thing as these five or seven stages of grief?
Speaker 2: Or is there no one way to grieve?
Speaker 3: I won't swear, Okay, we will do you the we'll
Speaker 3: do you the honor of not having to put a strong,
Speaker 3: strong language warning on the podcast. But no, there really
Speaker 3: aren't there are no five stages of grief, and I
Speaker 3: think it's really helpful to tell people where they came from.
Speaker 3: So Elizabeth Kobler Ross's work was the Five Stages of Dying,
Speaker 3: with the final stage, hopefully before death, being acceptance. And
Speaker 3: it was one of her students after you know, who
Speaker 3: said to her before she died, literally, do you think
Speaker 3: that would apply to grieving? And she kind of went, well,
Speaker 3: you could have a look.
Speaker 1: So then we just adopted at boom when my mother died,
Speaker 1: Loross was was the thing, and we just went, Okay,
Speaker 1: where are you at, I'm at this, you know, and
Speaker 1: we just followed it. And it didn't make logical scenes
Speaker 1: at the time, but there was a reassurance that somebody
Speaker 1: who'd researched it and't you So you're saying that was
Speaker 1: not It just doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: And all of the work there's you know, like people
Speaker 3: like Toumata bodny Meyer, there's so many researchers, but for really,
Speaker 3: like more than thirty years, have been saying no, And
Speaker 3: actually there's there's some A big research article came out
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen and in it they say the expectation
Speaker 3: that bereaved people will go through stages of grief can
Speaker 3: be harmful, and they are you know, in case anyone
Speaker 3: wasn't clear, and stage theory should be discarded by all concerned,
Speaker 3: including the bereave, because alternative models better represent grieving processes
Speaker 3: in plural.
Speaker 2: I'm glad we've got that sorted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is good. This is a real progress.
Speaker 1: So let's get to those thens. So what is a
Speaker 1: grieving process? What does it look like?
Speaker 3: So there's three things I think that are helpful in that.
Speaker 3: The first one is this idea of oscillation, that we
Speaker 3: go forwards and backwards. So looking at how people, normal
Speaker 3: healthy people grieve oscillation. You are in your grief, you
Speaker 3: are mourning the loss, you are overwhelmed by it, and
Speaker 3: then you move back to the other side to kind
Speaker 3: of normal restorative daily practices of life. Yeah, you get
Speaker 3: on you cry, you lie down on the floor, you cry,
Speaker 3: you get up, you go to the shops.
Speaker 2: So that's still That is when people say, you know
Speaker 2: that the emotion can come in waves, the grief comes
Speaker 2: in waves.
Speaker 3: And it can and in the acute sort of early days,
Speaker 3: you can spend more of your time. I'm in the
Speaker 3: grieving and the loss awareness then in the getting on
Speaker 3: with But what we know is that over time, getting
Speaker 3: to do some of the normal daily stuff is we
Speaker 3: think of it as respite from the heavy lifting of grief,
Speaker 3: you know. And actually, one of the things that people
Speaker 3: often often say when we remind people that positive emotions
Speaker 3: have a place in grief, they're like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: thank you for permission. I felt bad about laughing. There
Speaker 3: was one woman who said, you know, her husband had died,
Speaker 3: and she said, I literally drew the curtains and watched
Speaker 3: a funny movie with the kids because I thought, if
Speaker 3: people see us, they'll think we're terrible.
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, isn't that interesting? So because I think you're right.
Speaker 1: You know, the very initial phase of grief when you
Speaker 1: walk around looking at everybody else and going, how are
Speaker 1: you My person has died or even my dog has
Speaker 1: died and you are here living, it seems so weird.
Speaker 1: And then at some point you realize you've joined the
Speaker 1: people again and you're walking around it's crazy.
Speaker 3: And gradually, over time we can spend more time in
Speaker 3: the daily bits and less time in the acute grief.
Speaker 3: But it comes and goes and it will be different
Speaker 3: at different time, you know, like around birthdays, there'll be anniversaries,
Speaker 3: There'll be a lot of things that catapult you back.
Speaker 3: But sometimes for some people, And I'm thinking of some
Speaker 3: of the people I've worked with who had a sudden
Speaker 3: loss of a child. And I remember one woman saying,
Speaker 3: I am going back to teaching my five year olds
Speaker 3: at school because it is from nine to three. They
Speaker 3: keep me on my toes. I am doing something useful
Speaker 3: and there is no time for me to think about
Speaker 3: my grief. And I need that break distriction.
Speaker 1: Is it okay to postpone or distract ourselves from grief?
Speaker 1: We'll He'll catch up with us if we do that,
Speaker 1: you know we can.
Speaker 3: If we think about the oscillation, it's okay to come
Speaker 3: and go. There are some people who, you know, it's
Speaker 3: too big, it's too much. I can only bite off
Speaker 3: a sliver at a time, and as I'm ready, I'll
Speaker 3: do a bit more. So. Our thing is grief is
Speaker 3: as individual as your fingerprint. Now that's the good news.
Speaker 3: The bad news is that means you have to work
Speaker 3: out what works for you, you know, and there are
Speaker 3: some days when you can dip your toe, some days
Speaker 3: when you can put your whole body in How.
Speaker 2: Do you deal with that oscillation and those waves of emotion?
Speaker 2: How do you cope with them? Do you just let
Speaker 2: them be? Because as you say, you know, you're going
Speaker 2: to kind of, you know, move forward and back throughout them.
Speaker 3: And I think this is where are the community and
Speaker 3: the world we live in matters? Because if I'm in
Speaker 3: a community that is really understanding of my grieving and
Speaker 3: we're at work and a song comes on the radio
Speaker 3: and I fall apart and they're like, okay, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: arm around you. That's a bit rough, like you know,
Speaker 3: and then we'll move on. But if I'm at work
Speaker 3: in a place where there is zero acknowledgment or support
Speaker 3: and everyone scuttles away, well that's worse, isn't it. You know?
Speaker 3: So our community, how our community can hold us as
Speaker 3: we go through those waves, really matters, And I want
Speaker 3: to say we there's a lot of workplaces where it's awful.
Speaker 3: We worked with one person who went back to work
Speaker 3: after their life partner died, and everyone knew it was
Speaker 3: their day back at work. And this person went back
Speaker 3: to work and everyone chose to work at home that day.
Speaker 3: All the lights grown even on.
Speaker 1: Wow, this is modern.
Speaker 3: This is recent, yep, yep, a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: It's pretty man blowing.
Speaker 2: If somebody very close to you is struggling, if it's
Speaker 2: someone that you know really well, and we'll get to
Speaker 2: people who maybe you might work with or who are
Speaker 2: in part of your community in a moment. But if
Speaker 2: it's a loved one who is struggling, of course all
Speaker 2: we want to do is help. What is the best
Speaker 2: way to help.
Speaker 3: And so if we go grieving is as individual as
Speaker 3: your fingerprint, and you shouldn't have to do it in isolation.
Speaker 3: Relationships are some of the hardest part in grief. People
Speaker 3: can the support you expect sometimes doesn't show up. Sometimes
Speaker 3: the support that shows up you wish would go away.
Speaker 3: You know, people say terrible things, and a lot of
Speaker 3: the problem when people are grieving is not the people.
Speaker 3: It's our ability to cope. You know, if we're supporting
Speaker 3: somebody but actually one of your eyes is looking at
Speaker 3: your watch, going could you just stop the tears. I've
Speaker 3: got work in ten minutes or this has been going
Speaker 3: on for a while and I'm a bit bored. You know,
Speaker 3: how long is too long to cry? You know, do
Speaker 3: you really have a clock in your head that says
Speaker 3: you're allowed half an hour and after that it's self
Speaker 3: indulgent really because the person you've loved for fifty years has.
Speaker 2: Died, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I think there is
Speaker 1: this kind of thing. It's all really encompassing, and I
Speaker 1: don't know this is I'm talking for around experience, really
Speaker 1: encomassing when it happens, and then two to three to
Speaker 1: six weeks down the line, when you're still oscillating, people
Speaker 1: have moved away from you and you know, got fear enough,
Speaker 1: gotten on with their lives. But your lift all oscillating
Speaker 1: all over the place and you need them and you
Speaker 1: don't even know when you need them completely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a really hard one. And one
Speaker 3: of the things we talk about with people is initially
Speaker 3: after a loss, it's like lower the bar, do what
Speaker 3: you need to do, there are no rules. Cope as
Speaker 3: you can, and then get the support you need, and
Speaker 3: it's really helpful to have someone who can sit with
Speaker 3: you and go We talk about there's sometimes it's informational support,
Speaker 3: it's legal support, it's practical you know, for God's say,
Speaker 3: could someone cut the grass? There's all that stuff. There's
Speaker 3: the tidying up the information. And then there's the person
Speaker 3: who'll be with you over the long haul and won't
Speaker 3: get bored, And there's memory support. It's so helpful to
Speaker 3: have someone who has deep memories of the person to
Speaker 3: share with you. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the key thing being probably Denise's to
Speaker 2: ask what do you need at the moment? I'm here?
Speaker 2: I want you to tell me what you need is
Speaker 2: how little or big it may be, you know.
Speaker 3: And when someone's in a very acute phase and they
Speaker 3: will look at you and go, I don't know, and
Speaker 3: it's like that's where you thank the people who see
Speaker 3: the clothes need to come off the line. I'll cut
Speaker 3: the grass. Yeah, we'll bake you some food, you know, cookie,
Speaker 3: some food, whatever, and both ways, it's really helpful to
Speaker 3: understand people need a lot of different kinds of support,
Speaker 3: and not one person is going to be able to
Speaker 3: give all of it. The person who's really good at
Speaker 3: sitting listening is very unlikely to be the person who's
Speaker 3: really good at getting on, making the list, organizing this
Speaker 3: breadsheet of people to come and do things. You know.
Speaker 1: I think the other thing would be good for people
Speaker 1: to remember I'm not very we expect, right, but I
Speaker 1: have lost a few people life, but would be that.
Speaker 1: Don't feel offended if they say not today, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's not personal. That's the least
Speaker 1: personal thing in fact. And if they're just kind of
Speaker 1: grumpy and.
Speaker 2: You're not helping someone in order to make yourself feel better,
Speaker 2: you're helping someone, that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know the other bit, you know, showing
Speaker 3: up to tell them how sad you are and how
Speaker 3: badly it's affecting you are not so helpful.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a good one to remember, actually, isn't it.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't need to say, well, you feel terrible,
Speaker 1: I feel awful.
Speaker 3: You know, he was a great friend to me and
Speaker 3: I'm missing him.
Speaker 2: And that's where you turn up with the lovely memories
Speaker 2: that you share and allow them to talk about the
Speaker 2: person as well, but not just not necessarily to discuss
Speaker 2: your own grief.
Speaker 3: So the other two bits of kind of contemporary grief
Speaker 3: theory that are worth mentioning that I think people find
Speaker 3: really helpful are The first one is continuing bonds, and
Speaker 3: it's this idea that you know, God love Freud, and
Speaker 3: this idea that we had to sever the bonds, get
Speaker 3: rid of all the photographs, move on. We know that's
Speaker 3: not true, and we took about grief is the price
Speaker 3: we pay for being human beings who are hardwired for
Speaker 3: attachment but live in an impermanent world. And there are
Speaker 3: lovely those lovely sayings like you know, if grief is
Speaker 3: the price we pay for love and tears are the
Speaker 3: currency we pay it in and we don't have there's
Speaker 3: a beautiful, beautiful research called Tumatic, whom I think is
Speaker 3: Canadian because if I say he's American and he's Canadian,
Speaker 3: and be upset, and he says, the job of grief
Speaker 3: is learning to love in separation. We don't have to
Speaker 3: stop loving, but we have to learn to love separation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's hard, right because as you say, we
Speaker 1: love that back and forth interaction and they did. Person
Speaker 1: can't give us that and we just have to sit
Speaker 1: with it.
Speaker 3: But we don't have to stop loving them. Now we
Speaker 3: are allowed to find ways to rituals to remember to
Speaker 3: think about their legacy, and you know it can be
Speaker 3: my job to make sure they're never forgotten that their
Speaker 3: name is mentioned.
Speaker 2: Is is that what we do we learn to live
Speaker 2: with the grief do we ever truly get over lots?
Speaker 3: There was a really lovely grief counselor in christ Church
Speaker 3: called Lois Tonkin who died sometime back. But Lois has
Speaker 3: this beautiful graphic of people think that over time grief
Speaker 3: gets smaller, and there's this circle that we think gets smaller,
Speaker 3: and she says, in actual fact, grief stays the same size,
Speaker 3: but over time life grows bigger around it.
Speaker 1: I like that, you know, it's beautiful. I think back
Speaker 1: to and I don't want to speak of my brother's
Speaker 1: experience of grief, but he did a lot of reading
Speaker 1: about resilience because I think he was worried about that
Speaker 1: oscillation and when will I come back? And with thoughtful
Speaker 1: people when we all kind of started reading about it
Speaker 1: as well. And what I really liked is that resilience
Speaker 1: is something we possess and or don't possess. It's something
Speaker 1: that we lean on when we need it. It's a
Speaker 1: linear not a linear think what's the other one where
Speaker 1: it's it's not on a continuum or it is on
Speaker 1: a continuum. We just dive into it and out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the other thing that's really important that we
Speaker 3: spend a lot of time talking to people about and
Speaker 3: we as myself and Lucy Hone, my partner in crime
Speaker 3: and coping with loss. And it's saying that resilience is
Speaker 3: in our DNA. It is the normal response to loss
Speaker 3: that humans have always had, and it's not the preserve
Speaker 3: of the lucky few that we all, you know, when
Speaker 3: we've had better studies, we realize that the most common
Speaker 3: response is healthy coping, that we are resilient, and we
Speaker 3: can all learn to be a little bit more resilient.
Speaker 3: Part of that is knowing who you are, drawing on
Speaker 3: your own strengths and being in community and having support
Speaker 3: to draw on.
Speaker 2: So we've got oscillation, we've got continuing the bonds.
Speaker 3: Oh do you want one more? You? Okay? So this
Speaker 3: is so helpful for people, and it's the idea of
Speaker 3: secondary losses, and that is your primary loss is the person,
Speaker 3: but there are so many other secondary losses. So you
Speaker 3: lose a partner, but you've also lost the person who
Speaker 3: curated the playlist, who organized holidays, who put the bins out,
Speaker 3: who did the taxes, who wrote the Christmas cards, who
Speaker 3: showed up at parent teacher meetings, you know, and when
Speaker 3: you go to do those things and you're acutely aware
Speaker 3: of that loss, it's boom, another loss comes crashing in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that also. I think
Speaker 1: if you I don't know if this is the same thing,
Speaker 1: but when you lose a young person or a child,
Speaker 1: there must be that secondary loss of the person. They're
Speaker 1: not going to become.
Speaker 3: Completely the loss, you know. So, Lucy lost her beloved
Speaker 3: twelve year old daughter Abby in a car accident, and
Speaker 3: there's there's the loss of the imagined future that's huge,
Speaker 3: but also but also the things people don't think about,
Speaker 3: like Lissie said, scrunchy hair ties, glitter and little girls
Speaker 3: and netball left my house.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's tragic, you.
Speaker 3: Know so, and everybody's secondary losses will be different, but
Speaker 3: they can really help explain why something apparently small can
Speaker 3: really trip you up sometimes.
Speaker 1: That just triggered me a little bit. I haven't lost
Speaker 1: a daughter, but she's gone to university and we've talked
Speaker 1: about anteonistinggh and you're right, it's that loss. She's fine,
Speaker 1: and God help us, she will continue to be fine.
Speaker 1: But I've lost my daughter in the house. I've lost
Speaker 1: that feminine energy that I had, and I mean, I
Speaker 1: love the two men that I'm still living with. But
Speaker 1: I think that's, you know, the grief beyond death, these
Speaker 1: other types of Oh.
Speaker 3: Look, a friend told me last week they'd ended up
Speaker 3: taking some twelve year old out as part of a
Speaker 3: It was kind of a work commitment thing. Anyway, they
Speaker 3: had a beautiful day, took these twelve year olds for
Speaker 3: a picnic and a boat, and then afterwards she found
Speaker 3: her husband in tears and he was crying for not
Speaker 3: having their twelve year old children anymore. They're grown up,
Speaker 3: they've left home, they're not they haven't died, but that
Speaker 3: phase of life is over, and he was just grieving
Speaker 3: for it.
Speaker 2: And I suppose, look, we're sort of see going a
Speaker 2: little earlier that when anticipated. But actually that whole idea
Speaker 2: that grief isn't just about death and the loss of somebody.
Speaker 2: It may be in a strange relationship. Maybe you you know,
Speaker 2: you're a strange from a parent or a sibling and
Speaker 2: they're no longer part of your life. I sort of
Speaker 2: use to that jokingly, but now I think it really
Speaker 2: was a thing that when my teenage boy hit puberty,
Speaker 2: I grieved for about three or four months the loss
Speaker 2: of my gorgeous, communicative, you know, gladly adorable, just gorgeous
Speaker 2: young boy who's taught thought you were wonderful. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: who's doune into a gorgeous young man at eighteen. But
Speaker 2: you know, I realized now what I was missing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I grieved that loss. I haven't grieved him leaving home
Speaker 2: quite so much of us.
Speaker 1: So you.
Speaker 2: Never mind. So there is so you can grieve that.
Speaker 2: Other losses in life that ant nescirely just death.
Speaker 3: Non death losses are huge. And actually the last three
Speaker 3: months Lucy Hoane has been on sabbatical writing a big
Speaker 3: research project and writing a book on non death losses,
Speaker 3: and so that's going to come out early next year,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, you should really have her back
Speaker 3: on to talk about that because it's such a huge topic.
Speaker 3: And you know, what I would say is, if you
Speaker 3: think about think about redundancy and loss of identity, you know,
Speaker 3: as well as community. So I think that a lot
Speaker 3: of the people that show up for coaching or counseling
Speaker 3: because I'm trying to do this thing and I just
Speaker 3: can't seem to move forward. Often there's unresolved or unacknowledged
Speaker 3: loss sitting under it.
Speaker 2: I think that's wonderful for us all to remember because
Speaker 2: at times when somebody does suffer a loss, you might
Speaker 2: say it's just a job and you try and be
Speaker 2: very positive about it, and you know, and not.
Speaker 3: Mean minimize your experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And actually it is important just to go
Speaker 2: hang on. This is a really big change and it's
Speaker 2: quite a lot going on here, and there is a
Speaker 2: loss in some grief here.
Speaker 1: And that's funny, isn't it, because you'd never do that,
Speaker 1: you'd neven Well hopefully you didn't even say that to
Speaker 1: someone about a person.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you would, you would really, Oh yeah, all
Speaker 3: of the people we've worked with, you know, like, yes,
Speaker 3: there are people who've had me and litle loss who've
Speaker 3: had great support. They're also the ones who' said, well,
Speaker 3: it wasn't a real child. At least you have four
Speaker 3: others at home. Well you know, it wasn't like you
Speaker 3: really knew her.
Speaker 1: I thought that was gone with the AC I really didn't.
Speaker 3: No, No, still there, still there. And in fairness, people
Speaker 3: aren't awful. But you imagine you bump into the person
Speaker 3: you know who's just had that kind of loss, and
Speaker 3: your mind is going blank and you don't know what
Speaker 3: to say, and some random awful can come out.
Speaker 2: You're listening to the Little Things And our guest on
Speaker 2: the podcast today is doctor Denise Quinnan. We are talking grief.
Speaker 2: Will be back after this break. We were just talking
Speaker 2: Denis about the way people react to other people's loss,
Speaker 2: and I wonder whether this is another reason why we're
Speaker 2: not very good at dealing with death, is that it
Speaker 2: makes us so uncomfortable. We don't know what the right
Speaker 2: thing to say.
Speaker 1: Is.
Speaker 2: We sort of throw something at somebody, you know, without
Speaker 2: a huge amount of thought, maybe that you know sounds.
Speaker 1: Appropriate, and we think it sounds appropriate, We.
Speaker 2: Think sounds appropriate or positive or uplifting in things, and
Speaker 2: I think most of the time it's probably not.
Speaker 3: No. And so one of the things we talk about
Speaker 3: a lot in our work is how can we make
Speaker 3: the world we live in more grief? Letterate, you know,
Speaker 3: there was a time when you couldn't talk about gender
Speaker 3: and sexuality. And I remember my parents' generation kind of going, well,
Speaker 3: the child is gay, and you know, shock, horror, pro
Speaker 3: and then thirty forty years later it's just not a
Speaker 3: big deal, you know, And my mom in her eighties
Speaker 3: is like, oh, yeah, no, son, so is gay. And
Speaker 3: you know it's it's not a biggie. We're able to
Speaker 3: grow and change. That's what humans do, you know. And
Speaker 3: once upon a time we did all know this stuff
Speaker 3: and live with it. And I think we just need
Speaker 3: to get back to being comfortable with our own mortality
Speaker 3: and other people's.
Speaker 2: Earlier in the podcast, you told us a story about
Speaker 2: a colleague who went to work and everyone just avoided
Speaker 2: them because it was just so hard to face them.
Speaker 2: Is it as simple as when someone does come into
Speaker 2: the office is saying, I'm really sorry for your loss.
Speaker 2: If there's anything you need today, let me know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we actually talk about you. If you're really
Speaker 3: serious about managing someone's return to work, you're there, super advisor,
Speaker 3: their manager. You need a plan, and grief goes on,
Speaker 3: so you need a short and medium and a long
Speaker 3: term plan. There's grief. And one of the other things
Speaker 3: about grief is it's not an emotion, it's a process.
Speaker 3: It's physically exhausting, it's cognitively demanding. It makes you know
Speaker 3: that you feel physically sick, and stuff happens and it
Speaker 3: goes on. So we often say, ideally, maybe meet the
Speaker 3: person for the first time off site for a coffee
Speaker 3: so they don't have to come run the gauntlet of
Speaker 3: coming back to the office. There's preparing the person, what
Speaker 3: will your workload look like, what will you be able for?
Speaker 3: And we need to accept that you might need to
Speaker 3: dip out of things sometimes, or you might have blips
Speaker 3: where you're not able to do as much. Let's work
Speaker 3: it out. And I know some workplaces that have done
Speaker 3: this beautifully. And so there's preparing with the person for
Speaker 3: them coming back. And then I think as a manager,
Speaker 3: I also have a responsibility to prepare the rest of
Speaker 3: the team. Here's what's normal, Here's how we're going to
Speaker 3: manage it. Anyone feeling really awkward, anyone wants some tips
Speaker 3: and pointers on what to say, what not to say.
Speaker 1: You see before about grief being as individual as a fingerprints.
Speaker 1: Our reaction to it is probably as individual as well.
Speaker 3: And completely depending on who you are and how comfortable
Speaker 3: you are with it and what your experience of grief is.
Speaker 3: If you're someone who's lost a lot of people close
Speaker 3: to you and you've got a work colleague coming back
Speaker 3: who's had a bereavement, you kind of know what they're
Speaker 3: going through. You can empathize a bit. You're not terrified.
Speaker 3: It's not an unknown for some people, it's a complete unknown.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking as you're talking about, I know
Speaker 1: he's not everybody's capta, but Ricky Jervese did a TV
Speaker 1: series what was it called After That Life? And I
Speaker 1: watched that and that Pevoly personified that oscillation and that
Speaker 1: life going on. I can imagine going back to work
Speaker 1: and feeling I was a little bit meaningless. You know,
Speaker 1: this is this is not feeling like the actual grieving
Speaker 1: person might come back and not really be into the
Speaker 1: work for a little while, or not find the joy
Speaker 1: in it that they once did.
Speaker 3: And I mean, all of that is really common. And
Speaker 3: if you think about having a bereavement of someone that
Speaker 3: you care about deeply, that's a big part of your life.
Speaker 3: One of the other reasons relationships can be tricky afterwards
Speaker 3: as well as work is think about the perspective change
Speaker 3: you've had about what matters and what doesn't matter. And
Speaker 3: you've got friends who are, you know, going on about
Speaker 3: the challenges of organizing their next overseas holiday or a
Speaker 3: bad haircut, and and you can end up really short, temperate,
Speaker 3: and you know, really really you think that's a problem.
Speaker 1: So, friend, she's going to notice about me. But I've
Speaker 1: been watching Gray's an Enemy from the very beginning to
Speaker 1: start me from listening to American political podcasts, and Meredith
Speaker 1: Gray says, all the time, you think you've got problems,
Speaker 1: my husband died. She says it almost once in every season,
Speaker 1: and she does it all the time. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: he died quite some time ago. You need somehow it
Speaker 1: was six seasons ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But from me, I'm still living it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 3: I like that because it's like, yeah, everyone, the rest
Speaker 3: of you have moved on, warning I haven't. You know,
Speaker 3: He's still here with me, Denise.
Speaker 2: I was wondering if we could talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about when we know a loss is coming, So we're
Speaker 2: anticipating a loss through a terminal illness or a diagnosis,
Speaker 2: how do you deal with the prolonged period of grieving
Speaker 2: in the stages that can kind of come with watching
Speaker 2: and nurturing someone as they pass away.
Speaker 3: Gosh, it's hard, and you know, in terms of how
Speaker 3: do we do it, how many different kinds of people
Speaker 3: are there, and if we think about what we've just
Speaker 3: talked about, with loss and grief and how exhausting it is.
Speaker 3: Now think about trying to do that before a person dies,
Speaker 3: when typically you're also trying to hold down a job
Speaker 3: and care for them. It is an incredibly overloaded, overwhelming,
Speaker 3: exhausting time. And somehow I think one of the most
Speaker 3: difficult things is that when people are in anticipatory grief,
Speaker 3: very often they're expected to continue functioning normally in our
Speaker 3: grief illiterate world. You know, if you're a person slogging
Speaker 3: into work and coming home in the evening to a
Speaker 3: dying partner or a child, you know, you know that's
Speaker 3: that is still okay, but we know what the diagnosis is.
Speaker 3: How hard is that?
Speaker 1: That's incredible? It'll be difficult, and it's certainly one thing
Speaker 1: that I One thing that my brother I hope he
Speaker 1: doesn't mind me sharing, is that he said, I don't
Speaker 1: I can't be perfect to everything, but what I want
Speaker 1: to be is the perfect partner to my dying wife.
Speaker 3: Completely and then let everything else go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he still beats himself up. I think people
Speaker 1: do beat themselves up after the partner's died or the
Speaker 1: loved ones dying, And so I wasn't as good as
Speaker 1: I should have been or whatever. But you are as
Speaker 1: good as you could be in that time.
Speaker 3: And I know for me personally, my mum is ninety
Speaker 3: two and leaving us sell by sell, and my thing is,
Speaker 3: let's play with the bits that are left. You know
Speaker 3: that when she does, she is clear what's going on.
Speaker 3: But I was having this conversation with my sister last
Speaker 3: week and saying, when dad was dying, we were there
Speaker 3: and we have no regrets, and I want it to
Speaker 3: be the same. And I think, you know, what can
Speaker 3: we do to help the person who's closest and caregiving
Speaker 3: to have no regrets. I know one guy whose mum
Speaker 3: died and he was an extraordinarily busy healthcare professional and
Speaker 3: he put his patients ahead of his mother, and in
Speaker 3: the year that followed became very depressed because he'd missed
Speaker 3: the opportunity. He'd been, you know, a good healthcare worker,
Speaker 3: but not a good son. And how do we you know?
Speaker 3: And this is on ASA's community to go. I see you,
Speaker 3: I see what you're doing, and I know it's an
Speaker 3: awful lot of heavy lifting. How can we lift the
Speaker 3: burden in other ways? How can we lower the bar?
Speaker 3: What will work now?
Speaker 2: In Indonese, there's also the grief of the person who
Speaker 2: is dying, and what is it to them to consider.
Speaker 3: And and I don't know. I kind of think sometimes
Speaker 3: how we grieve is how we live, and we need
Speaker 3: to allow for all that big human difference, you know,
Speaker 3: like my dad just didn't want to talk about it.
Speaker 3: We'll talk about anything else with you, and he I remember, oh,
Speaker 3: this is so you relate so Irish funeral. The day
Speaker 3: after the funeral, when we had finished all our good
Speaker 3: behavior and we'd let our hair down in a dreadful way,
Speaker 3: I was putting my mom to bed and tucking her
Speaker 3: in and she said, you know, he never said goodbye,
Speaker 3: and interesting woman, I was thinking, oh, oh god, yeah,
Speaker 3: And I just said to her, Mum, what was the
Speaker 3: absolute hardest thing that he knew, ever wanted to do
Speaker 3: in the whole world. And she went, yeah, I know,
Speaker 3: I know, you know. And then she said, we didn't
Speaker 3: need to say goodbye. I know he loved me always.
Speaker 3: We never needed to say I love you, you know.
Speaker 3: So they were down one end of the spectrum. I
Speaker 3: know other people who've said, my time is really precious,
Speaker 3: and I want to be really clear about who I
Speaker 3: spend it with. And this person sent out emails and
Speaker 3: invited people to email their goodbye so they could read
Speaker 3: them at the time of their choosing when they had energy,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: And some people have living wakes, which I'm not sure
Speaker 1: that I need that. I just I know, yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know, I guess.
Speaker 3: Honestly, and I know I know hospital rooms with singing
Speaker 3: at the end, and you know, but but isn't it
Speaker 3: nice if we think The answer to that question is,
Speaker 3: you know, how do we say goodbye? Is we ask
Speaker 3: the people involved what will work for them and what
Speaker 3: would they like? And then sometimes I had a friend
Speaker 3: who died a year ago, and probably like literally the
Speaker 3: last time I saw her, I knelt down in front
Speaker 3: of her and I sang to her and you don't
Speaker 3: know my voice. So that's really not the gift that
Speaker 3: it sounds like. But it was something that was really meaningful.
Speaker 3: She'd had a really hard time, and it was about
Speaker 3: saying it was those lovely lines from Bridge over a
Speaker 3: Troubled Water of Ceylon, silver girl, your time has come,
Speaker 3: all your dreams are on their way.
Speaker 1: And I remember that song from where my mom died, Yeah, you.
Speaker 3: Know, And it was something I had been singing in
Speaker 3: the car as I drove to her and it just
Speaker 3: came out.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to be honest, it's more than once.
Speaker 2: I've got a little teary eyed Euly. Yeah, this podcast,
Speaker 2: I just want to touch on one more thing with you, Denise,
Speaker 2: and that is if you're dealing with sudden death, how
Speaker 2: much can the shock impect you? You know, is it
Speaker 2: hard to recover from a sudden, unexpected tath?
Speaker 3: Well, it's I think it's really helpful if we think
Speaker 3: about it as two things. There is the bereavement and
Speaker 3: the loss and all of that stuff we've been talking about,
Speaker 3: and there's trauma, you know, and trauma has its own
Speaker 3: way with us and our bodies. It's a huge shock
Speaker 3: to our system and it needs it needs to be calmed,
Speaker 3: to be reassured. And so if you think about a
Speaker 3: sudden death, as well as being catapulted into all the
Speaker 3: what do we do. How do we let people know
Speaker 3: there's a funeral, there's post mortems, there's all that stuff
Speaker 3: to deal with, and how do we can or shattered
Speaker 3: nervous systems? How do we feel our feet on the
Speaker 3: ground and remind ourselves that the world will you know
Speaker 3: there is still a world here. And one of the
Speaker 3: things about trauma is that it's in our bodies and
Speaker 3: so it can be triggered again really easily. So if
Speaker 3: you think about anyone who lost people in the earthquakes
Speaker 3: in christ Church, anyone who lost people in the Mosque shootings,
Speaker 3: a truck goes by, a car backfires and boom, you know,
Speaker 3: you were in a terrible car accident with sun strike.
Speaker 3: And you walk around a corner in the middle of
Speaker 3: a lovely, ordinary day and there's sun strike and you're
Speaker 3: right back there. And it's acknowledging that those things happen
Speaker 3: and that we need support for that as well.
Speaker 1: There's a book called The Body Keeps the Score? Is
Speaker 1: it what it's called?
Speaker 3: Under cool?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I find that amazing. And I as a person
Speaker 1: who's had a diagnosis that was a real shock and
Speaker 1: a bit of trauma. I you know, I know that
Speaker 1: as much as I think I've worked through it, that
Speaker 1: feeling of being in a doctor's office and hearing news
Speaker 1: about anything, even just a dodgy male will just be
Speaker 1: like it just cut shoots through you. So I get that, Yeah, And.
Speaker 3: You know it's so interesting you say that, like sometimes
Speaker 3: we recognize trauma when we see people unable to cope
Speaker 3: and in huge distress. Doesn't always look like that, you know.
Speaker 3: I was in the room when my father's was told
Speaker 3: his diagnosis was inoperable and very close at the end,
Speaker 3: and my mother didn't say a word. My father said
Speaker 3: only one thing, and it wasn't to the doctor. He
Speaker 3: turned and he said to my mom's name is Clora.
Speaker 2: And I hear it.
Speaker 3: I heard him say, are you all right, Chloe? And
Speaker 3: that was his only question. And then the next day,
Speaker 3: you know, and we gathered ourselves up and somebody had
Speaker 3: my brother was dispatched to buy dog food and whiskey
Speaker 3: on the way home. Very functional. And then the next
Speaker 3: day I heard my mum say on the phone to somebody, oh,
Speaker 3: we had a big trauma yesterday. So she had said nothing.
Speaker 3: She'd carried on, but that was how she'd experienced it
Speaker 3: in her body.
Speaker 1: I would have liked to admit, you're dead.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was great, completely great.
Speaker 2: TODAY'SID has been a beautiful conversation. I can't thank you
Speaker 2: enough for your time today. It's been wonderful. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 3: Oh it's a real pleasure, and thank you for the
Speaker 3: work you're doing because all of this is part of
Speaker 3: helping build a more grief literate society where we can
Speaker 3: talk about this. So thank you.
Speaker 1: Well friends. She just get that one really got you,
Speaker 1: didn't it it did?
Speaker 2: I just loved Dr Denise Quinlan.
Speaker 1: I could listen to that voice of that.
Speaker 2: I just thought she was beautiful and the way she
Speaker 2: spoke about things and what she had to say. I
Speaker 2: don't I don't know. I just found it really moving
Speaker 2: and really helpful, and and I think I've just actually
Speaker 2: decided throughout this conversation to be braver about death and
Speaker 2: grieving and not to let my sort of nervousness about
Speaker 2: doing the right thing or saying the right thing, or
Speaker 2: you know, responding to somebody else's grief get in the
Speaker 2: way of making sure that I'm doing the best I
Speaker 2: can to provide somebody with the community they need around them.
Speaker 1: How often does that community thing come up? It's it's
Speaker 1: so important for our mental health for every phase from
Speaker 1: from from birth, from cradle to grave. We need that
Speaker 1: connection otherwise we're a bit lost. I just was really
Speaker 1: the phrase literacy, grief literacy really strike a chord with
Speaker 1: me because I was thinking about our purpose for the
Speaker 1: Little Things, and I was thinking, how that was, you know,
Speaker 1: information demystification all of those things, and about health and
Speaker 1: fitness and metopause and going to your doctor and now grief,
Speaker 1: and she sort of encapsulated that that's my mission statement
Speaker 1: in some ways, and she was just so literate.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You can find Denise at Copingwithloss dot co. Thank
Speaker 2: you for joining us on our new ZEALANDERI podcast series
Speaker 2: Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the
Speaker 2: women in your life. Actually, please do share this podcast
Speaker 2: with anybody that you know that may be deggaling with
Speaker 2: grief or death or struggling with it. Really appreciated if
Speaker 2: you did.
Speaker 1: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
Speaker 1: head to end zed year Old dot co dot nz
Speaker 1: and we'll catch you next time on The Little Things