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Speaker 1: Right, it's having away from AI heading for the courts.

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Speaker 1: A couple of startups that use AI for music creation

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Speaker 1: software are being sued by the world's biggest record labels

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Speaker 1: and they're all in there as far as they can

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Speaker 1: work out. The New Zealand Chair or the Intellectual Property Society,

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Speaker 1: Kate Duckworth is with us on this Kate morning.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, great to be on your show.

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Speaker 1: No, thank you very much. Is this the first of

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Speaker 1: many cases?

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Speaker 2: Do you think? Yeah? Absolutely, I can't see a defense

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Speaker 2: there in terms of the AI taking copyright music works

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Speaker 2: and reforming them and doing whatever AI does to them.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think their argument is? This is

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Speaker 1: a company called Suno and the other one account remember

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Speaker 1: was that your do o Ordo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Their defense will either be that it's a fair use,

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Speaker 2: which is quite a strong defense in the United States,

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Speaker 2: a little bit less so in New Zealand, or else

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Speaker 2: they'll claim, as was claimed in a case about Andy Warhol,

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Speaker 2: that it's transformative what AI does to the original copyright work.

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Speaker 2: Those are the angles I think they'll go down for

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Speaker 2: a defense.

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Speaker 1: Okay. The most famous one is this BBL Drizzy, this

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Speaker 1: parody track of the thing between Lamar and Drake. If

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Speaker 1: you make something new but was based on something that

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Speaker 1: we know, is that still illegal or not?

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Speaker 2: That is, unless you make it what in the US

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Speaker 2: they called transformative, that you transform it into something else

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Speaker 2: that really is new, even though you might have copied

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Speaker 2: from the beginning. So it depends to the extent to

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Speaker 2: which it's different. And you might remember that in the

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Speaker 2: eight Mile case with the National Party.

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Speaker 1: I think yes, back, yes, pretty legal as far as

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Speaker 1: Stephen Joyce was concerned, having said that, do you have

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Speaker 1: to do it in all the courts if you land

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Speaker 1: a good result from these companies point of view, If

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Speaker 1: you can land a good result in America, do you

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Speaker 1: have to land the same result in you to make

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Speaker 1: it effective globally or not?

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Speaker 2: That's right, technically you do. But what you want to

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Speaker 2: do is scare them off that they want to litigate

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Speaker 2: around the world and lose, so they'll fold.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but here's the problem. I mean, you might win

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Speaker 1: against Suno and Udio, but then there's eight hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: other people doing the same thing in their garages and

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Speaker 1: their bedrooms all over the place, and it's whack a mole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, And I think where you would take

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Speaker 2: some heart as from what's happened to the music industry.

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Speaker 2: You started off with Napster and those platforms like that

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Speaker 2: that were copying music, and now we see that people

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Speaker 2: are prepared to use legal models like Spotify. So there's

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Speaker 2: been a real shift in the market. And if I

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Speaker 2: was Universal or Sony Music, that's what I would be

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Speaker 2: hoping for, is to bring about a change in the

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Speaker 2: way the industry operates.

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Speaker 1: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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