1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Before we dive into this episode, you should know that 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: it contains pretty disturbing details about child abuse and incest, 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: so listen with care. But there's also some people who 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: tirelessly fight against this sort of stuff. Have a look 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: at our show notes for numbers for support services if 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: you need them. 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: It's dawn in Rural Whitkator, November twenty sixteen. Simon Peterson 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: is about to execute a search warrant. 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 3: There was a farm down Cambridgeway. A bunch of officers 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 3: invests for all the year, rocking up to your house, 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 3: knocking on the door. 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: Inside the rundown house is a suspect. Simon and his 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: team have been monitoring for two months. 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 3: We had an interest in this particular person. In this 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 3: chat room. They were sharing material, so they were committing offending. 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: And now it's time to confront the man, or, as 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: Simon rather delicately puts it. 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 3: Kind of invading your space for a while to try 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 3: and establish the offending and find the evidence. 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: At first, there was some denial from the forty seven 21 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: year old farm worker. 22 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 3: A lot of people won't I meant to us some well, 23 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 3: but a lot of people won't to it. So the 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 3: work's on us to find the evidence and that's what 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 3: we'll do. So we're typically looking for devices that could 26 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: have been used to offend. 27 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 2: Simon's at the house for six hours. 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 3: So we found the devices that were interested in as 29 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 3: phone was one of them, and he had more material 30 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: already stored, which was enough for us to seize the 31 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 3: devices and aristom as well. 32 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 2: They took him to Hamilton Police Station where he was 33 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: processed and interviewed, and soon he was in court. 34 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: He played guilty pretty quickly. He wasn't mucking around. 35 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: Guilty of possession of child sexual abuse material. The man 36 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: was sentenced to home detention and his name was added 37 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: to the child's sex offenders registered. It was a depressingly 38 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: routine police operation with a depressingly routine outcome, but what 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: happened next was far from routine. That morning raid in 40 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: rural New Zealand set off a chain of events that 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: would drastically change lives in a tiny Arizona town and 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: reverberate all the way to Salt Lake City, Utah. 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: In an interview with investigation associates abuse let it keeping, 44 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 4: they clearly tolerated the abuse. 45 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm Maurray Jones and This is Heaven's Helpline, a six 46 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: part New Zealand Herald investigation into the Mormon Church in 47 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: Altero and beyond, Episode four the Helpline. Simon Peterson is 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: the Chief Customs Officer in the Child Exploitation Operations Team 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 2: at New Zealand Customs. 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: Predominantly we deal with the movement of child sexual exploitation 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 3: material or objectionable publications, so we're looking at people who 52 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: are trading this material with other people around the world, 53 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 3: across our cyber border we call it. 54 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: In late twenty sixteen, Simon was a year into his 55 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: role in the unit. 56 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: So as a new investigator, but. 57 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: Even as a newbie, he'd still seen some horrific things 58 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: in the dark corners of the Internet or on people's 59 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: phones or on their hard drives. You have to develop 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: a pretty thick skin for this work and good coping mechanisms, 61 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: including stepping away from your screen. 62 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: You don't know when something's going to hit you and 63 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: it just doesn't feel right. So that's always a possibility 64 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 3: is you'll come across something you can't conceive of and 65 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 3: you just need to go and take a break. 66 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: After the dawn Raiding Cambridge, Simon began the routine process 67 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: of going through the offender's cataloging all the files, including 68 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: still images and videos. 69 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: There's fully simple prices of chicking it against what we 70 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: are in you marking the ones we don't know. 71 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: Simon needs to catalog the material for the purposes of prosecution. 72 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: But the thing that he said about separating what we 73 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: already knew from the ones we don't know. What he's 74 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: talking about there is something that arises from the disturbing 75 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 2: fact that once a child's sexual abuse video has been 76 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: posted somewhere on the Internet, it's basically out there. 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: Forever, we could have a thousand stuff and still not 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 3: touch the sides of us. Is that much going on? 79 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: No matter how many people might be arrested for possessing it, 80 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: no matter how many hard drives and phones get seized, 81 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: there'll always be another copy of it being shared or 82 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: sold or swapped online, year after year after year. So 83 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 2: law enforcement agencies have developed an international system where each 84 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: offending computer file is indexed using what's called a hash. Basically, 85 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 2: they generate a digital fingerprint of that file. This means 86 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: investigators like Simon don't have to watch and rewatch every 87 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 2: single abuse video on the countless devices they sees, they 88 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: can instead compare the hash values to that database and 89 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: go right, that's one of the ones we already knew about, 90 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: and that means it's easy to spot if an image 91 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: or video is new to the Internet because it won't 92 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: already be on Interpol's database. 93 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: So one of those videos, when we put it throughout 94 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 3: international collaboration, we checked it against the hash databases. It 95 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 3: came back as it's not known, so it's the first 96 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 3: red flaggers that's not been No other law enforcement in 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: the world has indicated that they've seen this by hashing out. 98 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: This nine minute video that was found on the phone 99 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: of a man in Cambridge and New Zealand hasn't been 100 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: seen by law enforcement before, so it was probably created 101 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: relatively recently. And that's really important. 102 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: Behind every investigation though, is a concern for the victims 103 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: that are shown on material that we're dealing with. 104 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: And this video from the Cambridge raid, it contained some 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 2: strong potential leads. 106 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: That video had some good markers on that for victim identification. 107 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 3: We could see that I could tell straight away it 108 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 3: was American and that it was probably West Coast American. 109 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: I won't go into all the details, but excent was 110 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 3: pretty clear, and there are a couple of other features 111 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 3: that I won't describe that made us think it was 112 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: probably West Coast America. 113 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: So Simon uploaded it to the Interpolar system and marked 114 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 2: it for investigators in the US. 115 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 3: And see, you guys might want have look at us. 116 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: Simon's upload was acknowledged by the United States National Center 117 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: for Missing and Exploited Children or NCMEC. People call it NICKMK. 118 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 3: In the ind of win quiet and it always does. 119 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: It's incredibly hard to identify and locate children who are 120 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: being abused in this type of material. In most cases, 121 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: Simon doesn't hear anything more. 122 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: And that's cool. We know we don't need to hear back, 123 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: but in this particular case we did. 124 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: Early one Friday morning, a couple of months after the 125 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: Cambridge case referral to Interpol, Simon sat down at his 126 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: l shaped desk at the office in Central Auckland. 127 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: Logged on, fired up the computer, opened up the email 128 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 3: that was sitting in the inbox. They just had a 129 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: simple message in there saying great news. We've identified the 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 3: offender and he's been arrested. And we've subsequently identified and 131 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 3: safeguarded the cat as well. I still remember it. Sorry, 132 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: I had to get up and walk out. It's pretty shaky. Yeah, 133 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: I don't know why I get emotional about it. 134 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: I think it's understandable. 135 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it was probably my first, the first 136 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,239 Speaker 3: case that i'd had that had that sort of outcome 137 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 3: communicator back. That's probably why the response was installers quite viscable. 138 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: I've done cases since then and I don't respond the 139 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: same way, so maybe that's what it does. It was, Yeah, 140 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: quite powerful. Ultimately, that's the point of what we're doing, 141 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: is to particulards and get the Metahum's way. 142 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 143 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 3: And it doesn't happen often. Sorry, when it Heavens is good. 144 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: The kid from the video that Simon helped to save 145 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 2: she had been living at the end of a dirt 146 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: road on the outskirts of Bisbee, a small old copper 147 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: mining town in Arizona, about eighteen kilometers north of the 148 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: Mexican border, population five thousand. I need to give you 149 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: another content warning here. The next couple of minutes is 150 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: pretty graphic and deals with child sexual abuse. This was 151 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 2: the Adam's household, father Paul, mother Lisa, and six children 152 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: living in a three bedroom home surrounded by desert, out 153 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: of the way of prying eyes. Lisa Adams was in 154 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: charge of household duties, getting the children off to school 155 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: and to church on Sunday. Paul Adams worked as a 156 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: US Border Patrol agent. Legal documents paint a picture of 157 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: a disordered house, littered with piles of clothing. I've seen 158 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: photos of their house up on a shelf, a sign 159 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 2: saying family sits below a large picture of Jesus. A 160 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: wall hanging reeds bless this family as it dangles from 161 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 2: a curtain rail. Also around the house were containers of lubricant, 162 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: which Paul Adams would use when he sexually abused his daughters. 163 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: He began raping one daughter, referred to as MJ and 164 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: media report from the age of five, possibly even younger. 165 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: He started sexually assaulting one of MJ's younger sisters when 166 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: she was six weeks old. When Adams was assaulting MJ, 167 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: he would make her hold his smartphone to record it 168 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: on video. He would then upload the videos to internet 169 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: chat rooms, where he bragged he was living the perfect 170 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: lifestyle because he could rape his daughters whenever he wanted, 171 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: and his wife knew and doesn't care. And one of 172 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: those videos a nine minute clip recorded when MJ was 173 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: ten years old. It was shared and re shared until 174 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: about two years later it ended up on at Cambridge 175 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: pedophile's phone that was seized in a raid. Then US 176 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: authorities use facial recognition technology to search for the offender, 177 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: and because Paul Adams was a border guard, a federal employee, 178 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: he was swiftly idd. Agents descended on the border station 179 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: in Naco, Arizona and arrested Adams. Under interrogation, he admitted 180 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 2: to raping MJ and sexually assaulting her younger sister and 181 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: uploading videos of the assaults to the Internet, and after 182 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: raiding the Adams home, agents found four thousand photos and 183 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: one thousand videos of child sex abuse, many featuring his daughters. 184 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: Paul Adams was arrested and charged, but before his case 185 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 2: got any further, he committed suicide. Lisa Adams, the mother, 186 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: pleaded no contest to child sex abuse charges and served 187 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 2: two and a half years in state prison. Three of 188 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: the Adams children went to live with members of Lisa's 189 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: extended family, while the other three were taken in by 190 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: local families. Unbelievable, unspeakable, trauma for these girls, but at 191 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: least they had been rescued from that house, rescued by 192 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 2: a chain of strangers, by a customs officer on the 193 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: other side of the world, by officials at Nitmick, by 194 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: the Homeland Security agents who got a confession out of 195 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: Paul Adams that day at the US Mexico border. Which 196 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: makes the next part of this story all the more 197 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: astonishing because and you're probably way ahead of me here, 198 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: Simon Peterson wasn't the first person outside of the Adam's 199 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: household or a dark web chat room to learn about 200 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: the abuse. Paul Adams had been a member of the 201 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 2: Mormon Church, and two of his bishops had known about 202 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: the abuse and never told police. The first bishop learned 203 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 2: about the abuse in twenty ten. Paul Adams was arrested 204 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, seven years of lost opportunity to stop 205 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 2: a pedophile whose offending was about as extreme and blatant 206 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: as it's possible to get extreme. But there are similarities 207 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: to what we've already heard from Mormons in Altai Rowa. 208 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 2: You know the drill. There's abuse, a bishop is told, 209 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: then nothing much happens. But in twenty twenty two, the 210 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: Associated Press broke a story that contained astonishing new insight 211 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: into how and why those cover ups happened. This was 212 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: the AP story that I heard midway through my own reporting, 213 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: the one that forced me to reevaluate what I thought 214 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: I knew about cases like this. The AP story broke 215 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: five years after Paul adams arrest and suicide because when 216 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: the Adam's children got older, three of them decided to 217 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: sue the Mormon Church over the bishop's failure to report 218 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: what they knew. 219 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 5: Peter Mario has a shocking story in Tonight's Use for 220 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 5: Tucson Investigation. 221 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: This twenty four page civil complaint was just filed in 222 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: Coachie's County against members of a Bisbee church, accusing them 223 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: of not protecting their youngest members. And as that lawsuit 224 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: kicked off, it became obvious that the cover up of 225 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: Paul Adams's abuse went way higher up the church hierarchy 226 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: than just the local bishops. The details get complicated, but 227 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: boiled right down, here's what happened. MJ was just five 228 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: when her father first confessed to a bishop that he 229 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: had sexually abused her. This was Bishop Herod. He was 230 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: a doctor by profession. Lisa Adams was one of his patients. 231 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: Bishop Herod called the church for advice. He was told 232 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: that confessions are confidential and that he could be sued 233 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: if he reported it to the police, so he didn't. Instead, 234 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: he tried to count Paul Adams to repent, to move 235 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: out of the home, to turn himself in, but Adams 236 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: continued to rape his daughter, so Bishop Herod tried another attack. 237 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: During a counseling session with Adams, he invited Lisa Adams 238 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: along in the hope that as the mother, she might 239 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: be able to protect her children. Did that work? No, 240 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: it didn't. The rapes continued and Adams started uploading videos 241 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: onto the Internet. Then a new bishop took over the ward. 242 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: This was Bishop Mawsey. Before Bishop Herod left, he passed 243 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: the details of the Adams situation to Bishop Morsey, and 244 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: Bishop Morsey called the church just like Herod. He wanted 245 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: some guidance on how to handle this nightmare, and just 246 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: like Herod, he was warned not to contact the police, 247 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: but he was offered a new suggestion, convene a disciplinary counsel, 248 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: you know, like the one Jade faced after admitting to 249 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: an affair. And this church court did its job. Adams 250 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: was excommunicated kicked out of the church. From the church's perspective, 251 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: the matter was resolved well. Except for this, Paul Adams 252 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: kept raping his daughter and no one told the police. 253 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: It would be another four years, during which time another 254 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: daughter was born and almost immediately victimized before Adams was arrested. 255 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: In a response to the AP story, the church said 256 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: AP had misrepresented the extent of the abuse that the 257 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: bishops were aware of. It argued that the first Bishop, Herod, 258 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: was only aware of a single case of abuse from 259 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: a limited confession from Paul Adams, and was not aware 260 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: if it was ongoing. But when questioned by law enforcement, 261 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: Herod said he assumed the abuse had stopped and never 262 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: asked if it picked up again. 263 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 6: Just said, hey, let's excommunicate her father. It didn't stop, 264 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 6: Let's have them go to therapy. It didn't stop. Hey, 265 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 6: let's forgive and forget and this will I'll go away. 266 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 6: It didn't go away. They just let it keep happening. 267 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: That was MJ speaking to the Associated Press for that 268 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two report. By then she was sixteen. Her 269 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: foster parents talked about her remarkable resilience and how she 270 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: was doing well at school. New Zealand customs officer Simon 271 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: Peterson was interviewed for that AP report as well. It 272 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 2: was five years since he'd started the chain of events 273 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: that would save MJ, but it still hit him hard. 274 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 3: It's a mux. It's hippy, said, you said, because of 275 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 3: what's happened, you said for the kid. But you're happy 276 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 3: as well that this is with you right now. You know. 277 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: They go through a lot once, as arristed in the 278 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: situation as ended, it could hiss a deal with so 279 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 3: much that they shouldn't have to deal with most ay 280 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: lots don't have to worry about. 281 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: Look, after hearing the stories from New Zealand, from people 282 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 2: like Caroline and Jade, people like Neville and Jenny, perhaps 283 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: I shouldn't have been so shocked by the Paul Adams 284 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: story and the church's failure to report his crimes. 285 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: But I was. 286 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 2: I was dumbfounded, to be honest, because after hearing the 287 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: New Zealand stories, I'd been getting the sense that there 288 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: was a culture, an instinct perhaps for local church leaders 289 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: to want to deal with things in house, and a 290 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: lot of it seemed to be based on an absolutist 291 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 2: view about keeping the family together at all costs. But 292 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 2: this case from Arizona, and the really detailed coverage of 293 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: who told which bishop when, and which bishop did what next, 294 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: and exactly what the church advised and how they delivered 295 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: that advice. It showed that in the American Church at least, 296 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 2: this wasn't just an instinct or a culture. This was 297 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: church policy. The church guidelines were that if a bishop 298 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 2: was told about sexual abuse within a ward, the first 299 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,239 Speaker 2: thing they should do was pick up the phone and 300 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: call a dedicated sexual abuse helpline run by the church itself, 301 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: a helpline not for victims, but rather for bishops and 302 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 2: state presidents. In the Paul Adams case, when bishops rang 303 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: that number, they soon found themselves talking to a lawyer, 304 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: and that lawyer told them not to call the police. 305 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: The ap story lifted the lid on a systematic, organized 306 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: process overseen by church lawyers, enabled through this helpline. And 307 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: the crazy thing is the church wasn't even breaking the 308 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 2: law by giving this advice. After the break, I'll explain 309 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: how that could even be possible. 310 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 6: I must confess to you. 311 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: We need to talk. 312 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 6: I must tell someone. 313 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: About something called priest penitent privilege. 314 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 5: I want to make a confession. 315 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 2: It's actually a pretty familiar idea. If you're a Christian 316 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: and you've done something wrong and you're seeking God's forgiveness, 317 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 2: you are technically known as a penitent, someone who repents, 318 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: and in many Christian denominations you're encouraged to act on 319 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: that by finding a priest and making a confession. The 320 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 2: interesting bit is that everything a penitent says to a 321 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: priest in the privacy of the confession is automatically confidential, 322 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: which is why there are so many books and movies 323 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: like that nineteen fifties Hitchcock thriller that you just heard 324 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: a clip from, where the plot revolves around something like 325 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: a murderer confessing to a priest and the priests getting 326 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: tied up in knots about what to do next. In 327 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: certain countries, this confidentiality between a penitent and their priest 328 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: is not just a church thing. It's actually part of 329 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: the law of the land, a legal privilege. And there's 330 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: your name, priest penitent privilege. And I'm going to say 331 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: it so many times in the next three minutes that 332 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 2: I'm going to call it PPP for sure. Now In 333 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: jurisdictions where PPP is a thing. A priest, a pastor, 334 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: or a bishop whatever, cannot be forced in a trial 335 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 2: to reveal the contents of a confession they have received 336 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: from a member of their faith. So back to Arizona 337 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: and the awful Paul Adams case. There it was PPP 338 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: that the church was leaning on when it advised those 339 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: two Arizona bishops not to report the abuse of MJ. 340 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: The bishops have said the advice they got was that 341 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 2: they risk being personally suit or the church being sued 342 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 2: if they went to police. But the fact is the 343 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: church doesn't just lean on PPP, it also works hard 344 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: to prop it up. Mormon politicians and lobbyists have fought 345 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: really hard to preserve priest penitent privilege in more than 346 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: thirty US states. Alongside other religious groups, they've successfully pushed 347 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 2: back against new laws which would make it easier to 348 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: report sexual abuse revealed during a confession. To make this 349 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: extra confusing is the fact that Arizona also has mandatory 350 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: reporting laws, which means certain people such as doctors, teachers, 351 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 2: and social workers are actually legally required to pass information 352 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: about child sex abuse to civil authorities. In other words, 353 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: if they do not report abuse, they can face criminal prosecution, 354 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: but the church argues that PPP overrides these reporting obligations. 355 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: But quite aside from whether that legal advice to the 356 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 2: Arizona bishops was right or wrong, the thing that really 357 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: stuck out for me in that AP story was the 358 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: way the bishops got that advice. 359 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 5: What the policy of this church is is to call 360 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 5: what's called a helpline. 361 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 2: The idea of a sexual abuse helpline. It sounds sensible, right, 362 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 2: But why is it bishops who get to call it 363 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: rather than victims? Why do those bishops end up connecting 364 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: with church lawyers rather than I don't know, train sexual 365 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: abuse counselors. In the church's online manual of Guidelines and Procedures, 366 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: they say the helpline is an effective way to inform 367 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 2: untrained leaders of their legal obligations, which I guess makes 368 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: sense sort of, And in response to the AP story, 369 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: the church said that the abuse helpline has everything to 370 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: do with protecting children and has nothing to do with 371 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: cover up. It's a a yes. The purpose of the 372 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 2: helpline is in part to directly report the abuse to authorities, 373 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,239 Speaker 2: regardless of legal exemptions from reporting requirements. When it is 374 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: known that a child is in imminent danger. The church 375 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: claims that the helpline routine reports cases of child abuse 376 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: to authorities. But when I spoke to this guy. 377 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 5: My name is Timothy Kaskov. 378 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: He had a pretty different take on the helpline. 379 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 5: I'm a lawyer. I live in Seattle, Washington. Although my 380 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 5: law practice representing survivors of child sexual abuse as a 381 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 5: national practice. 382 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 2: Tim Kosnov has been handling cases against the Church on 383 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: behalf of victims for nearly twenty five years, and midway 384 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: through our zoom call, I read him some of the 385 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: church's official response to the AP investigation. Dave said, the 386 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: suggestion that the helpline is used to cover up abuse 387 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 2: is completely false. The Church abuse helpline has everything to 388 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: do with protecting children and has no nothing to do 389 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: with cover up. Outside experts who are aware of the 390 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: helpline have regularly praised it. 391 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 5: Excuse me, I think I am going to throw up 392 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 5: in my mouth. 393 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: Tim has practiced law for forty years. He was a 394 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 2: prosecutor and a defense attorney. Then at the turn of 395 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: the century he set up a firm focusing on representing 396 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: survivors of child sexual abuse. He's taken on the Catholic Church, 397 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: the Salvation Army, the Jehovah's Witnesses. But his first case 398 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: with this new firm. 399 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 5: My very first case in Baldimaron Church, and thus began 400 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 5: the journey. 401 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: That case blew Coosnov away. 402 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 5: I mean, the first case I thought was one in 403 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 5: a million case, because you know, a church wouldn't deliberately 404 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 5: put a child in harm's way, put him in a 405 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 5: home with a serial child molister. 406 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 2: That was the story of Franklin Curtis, which we don't 407 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: have time to go into here. But Curtis was a 408 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: Mormon church leader who sexually abused children in seven US 409 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 2: states over eighteen years from the nineteen seventies to the 410 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, and after each incident he was simply moved 411 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: to a different ward. Kosnov represented one of those children 412 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: who was suing the Mormon Church. Twenty five years and 413 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: thousands of clients later, Kosnov realizes Curtis's case wasn't as 414 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: rare as he'd thought. He's been driven to keep doing 415 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 2: these cases by a couple of things. 416 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 5: The predominant emotion which carried me through all those cases 417 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 5: was anger. Anger, they say is a useless emotion, But 418 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 5: I actually think it's a pretty useful emotion if it's 419 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 5: channeled in the right direction. And for me, it was 420 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 5: both anger and in an intellectual curiosity a question that 421 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 5: the answer just kept eluding me, which is why do 422 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 5: they do this? Why does a church do this? 423 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: It's exactly the question that was in my mind as 424 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 2: I heard these New Zealand stories and as I read 425 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: about the Arizona case. So Tim, take it away. Why 426 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: did the church in the mid nineties set up a 427 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: centralized abuse helpline which bishops and other church leaders are 428 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: told to call before they've talked to anyone else. 429 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 5: They've set up a system that involves their lawyers at 430 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 5: the very first communication. 431 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: Kosnos gives a hypothetical example to explain how it might 432 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: play out. 433 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 5: So there's a bishop in West Virginia and he's got 434 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 5: a child there and is reporting that she's being incested 435 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 5: by her stepfather. 436 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: The bishop is thinking about calling the police because he 437 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: knows that the state has mandatory reporting laws. 438 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 5: But instead he knows, because it's right there in the handbook, 439 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 5: right on his desk, call this one eight hundred numbers. 440 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 5: So he calls and it's supposedly, you know, to help 441 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 5: the child. But it rings into the offices of Curtain mccakey. 442 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: Kern mconkie. That's the law firm that represents the church, 443 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 2: the largest law firm in Utah. 444 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 5: It doesn't go to a social worker or a therapist 445 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 5: or somebody qualified. It rings in to the offices of 446 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 5: Curtin mccakey, and they've got staff attorneys and they rotate 447 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 5: twenty four to seven. If the office is closed, it 448 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 5: goes to one of the cell phone numbers. Whether it's 449 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 5: two in the morning or nine in the morning or whatever, 450 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 5: some lawyer is going to answer that call. Okay, Now 451 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 5: what happens. Now you've got a bishop who's an agent 452 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 5: of the church legally speaking to his lawyer, a lawyer 453 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 5: for the church. Now, everything that's said in that communication 454 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 5: is attorney client. 455 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: Privilege, another privilege, and this privilege is crucially important for 456 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: the church. 457 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 5: Because a lawyer can't be compelled to testify about his 458 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 5: or her communications with their client. 459 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: This immediate looping in of a lawyer pressing go on 460 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: attorney client privilege at the first available opportunity. It's really 461 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: quite the trick. 462 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 5: That's something that I mean the Catholic Church doesn't even 463 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 5: do that one, whether Jehovah's witnesses or any of that. 464 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: That attorney client privilege means it's generally impossible for us 465 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: to know what is said when a bishop calls the 466 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: abuse helpline and speaks to a church lawyer. But Kosnov 467 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: does have an interesting little window into what probably goes 468 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 2: on because when the abuse helpline was first set up 469 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety five, calls didn't go direct to a lawyer. Instead, 470 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: the one eight hundred number would take you to the 471 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: church's Office of Risk Management, which is kind of interesting 472 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: given that other risks managed by the office reportedly include injuries, fires, explosions, 473 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: chemical spills, and severe weather. So the original system was 474 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: that if you were a bishop and rang the helpline, 475 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: you'd get through to the office of Risk Management, and 476 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: a worker would step you through a checklist, a kind 477 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: of screening questionnaire. If that screening showed the case was serious, 478 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: the worker would transfer you onto a lawyer, and bam. 479 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: That attorney client privilege kicks in this checklist. Cosnov got 480 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: his hands on it during one of his early cases 481 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: against the church, and it's since been leaked online. So 482 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: anyone can now see this one secret in house document 483 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 2: and Cosnov reckons the checklist is extremely revealing. 484 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 5: That form just made crystal clear what the real purpose 485 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 5: of that helpline was and still is. 486 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: I've got a copy of the protocol for Abuse Helpline 487 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: Calls in front of me. The title is in all 488 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: caps comic sands. Look, this was the mid nineties, so 489 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: we can forgive this crime against typography. There's a section 490 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: at the top for dates, call his name, position, ward, 491 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: and phone numbers. And there's a list of six questions, 492 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 2: each with two little checkboxes at the end, one for yes, 493 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: one for no. 494 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 5: Question one. Did the abuse occur on church property, that's 495 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 5: a lawyer question. Did the abuse occur during a church 496 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 5: sponsored activity, that's a lawyer question. Those are liability questions. 497 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 5: Those are oh we could get sued questions. 498 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 2: The remaining four questions ask if the alleged abuse are 499 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: used a church position of influence to accomplish the abuse, 500 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: if they were employed by the church, if they had 501 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: any record of previous abuse, and whether they were currently 502 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: a missionary. And above the six questions, there's a line 503 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: saying that if the answer to any of these questions 504 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: is yes, you must immediately transfer the call to legal counsel. 505 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: The word immediately is underlined. There's a bunch of other 506 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: pieces of guidance as well. A bit further down under 507 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: reporting issues, they're told that the caller, the bishop or 508 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: whoever it is, should use their first name only with 509 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: no identifying information. It warns that during the screening process, 510 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: abuse helpline personnel should quote never advise a priesthood leader 511 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: to report abuse. So those are the lines that really 512 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: stuck out to me when I was reading the protocol. 513 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: To be fair, there is also some more sensible sounding 514 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: advice on there. It asks helpline workers to find out 515 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 2: whether the civil authorities have been told about the abuse, 516 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 2: and if not, then the bishop should encourage the victim 517 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: or perpetrator, or a third party who knows about the 518 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: abuse to report it. That is an interesting bit of 519 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: advice when you think about it. When I first read it, 520 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, great, so this is a scenario where 521 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: a bishop might be advising an abuser to dop himself 522 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: in or others who know about the abuse to report 523 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: to authorities. That seems quite responsible advice from the church. 524 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 2: But first of all, how many abuses do we really 525 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 2: think would take this advice to turn themselves in. Second 526 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: of all, we know that in cases of abuse, particularly 527 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 2: child abuse, it is often only the perpetrator and the 528 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: victim who are aware of what's going on, so appealing 529 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: to third parties to report abuse if they know about 530 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: it will miss a huge proportion of cases. The protocol 531 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: also says if bishops encourage the perpetrator to report, then 532 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: they should also recommend that the abuser obtain legal counsel, 533 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: and that, says Tim Kosnov, is actually pretty cynical advice, because. 534 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 5: If you go to a criminal defense lawyer, he's going 535 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 5: to say, no, you're not going to go to the 536 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 5: police and give a statement. 537 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: So actually this is just another way to reduce the 538 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: odds of the police hearing anything at all. 539 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 5: So they prevent the abuser from implicating himself and thereby 540 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 5: implicating the church. 541 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 2: Like I said, this protocol document dates back to an 542 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 2: earlier version of the helpline set up. It's reasonable to 543 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: presume the protocols and the processes for connecting to lawyers 544 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: won't be identical thirty years on. Reports vary about the 545 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: current practice of who first answers the call. Senior Church 546 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 2: officials have testified that callers are initially fielded by church workers, 547 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: while in other cases, such as the Arizona case, it 548 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,959 Speaker 2: appears that lawyers directly answer the cause. But Kosnov says, 549 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: this remarkable secret document still tells you all you need 550 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: to know about the goals behind the creation of the 551 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 2: helpline in the first place. 552 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 5: Take a look at that, and you'll see how devious 553 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 5: this thing really is, what its real purpose is, which 554 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 5: is to protect the church and to kill any possible 555 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 5: involvement of the Church in criminal or civil proceedings by 556 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 5: preventing it from ever coming to the attention of the 557 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 5: civil authorities. 558 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 2: Actually, there is one other thing we'd do know about 559 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: the current day helpline in the US, which is that 560 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 2: records of cause are destroyed at the end of each day. 561 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 2: At least that's what senior church lawyers have said during 562 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: a recent court case in the US. SO first names 563 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: only privileged conversations, destroying documents confidential courts. It appears that 564 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: the system the Church created is about as far from 565 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 2: transparent as it's possible to be. It's really quite difficult 566 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: to take seriously the church's claim that the helpline is 567 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 2: all about protecting victims. So for Kosnov, the helpline's goal 568 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 2: is clear to keep reports of abuse from reaching civil authorities. 569 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: But what about the deeper question, why would the church 570 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: want to do that? What's the upside of keeping things quiet? Well, 571 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: let's not overthink this. There are a couple of pretty 572 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: obvious motives. If an abuse report led to a criminal 573 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 2: investigation or worse still, the conviction of individual church members 574 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 2: or leaders, that's pretty embarrassing. So keeping things quiet serves 575 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 2: to protect the church's reputation. Then there's civil litigation. If 576 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 2: the church is sued by survivors of abuse and it's 577 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 2: in a jurisdiction where the legal setup is friendly to victims, 578 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: settlements against the church can run into the millions of dollars. 579 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: So shutting things down is also a way to protect 580 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: the church's money, reputation money, and of course sometimes you've 581 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: got to make a trade off between the two. Spend 582 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: money to protect reputation, like when the church offers secret 583 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 2: cash payouts and non disclosure agreements NDAs to keep victims 584 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 2: quiet and stop them from suing, because yep, they do 585 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 2: that too. Eighteen months after the Associated Press reported on 586 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 2: the abuse Helpline's role in the Paul Adams case in Arizona, 587 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: they broke another story. 588 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 4: We do begin tonight with claims from a former bishop's 589 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 4: daughter accusing her father of sexually abusing her for more 590 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 4: than a decade. Now in her mid thirties, Chelsea Goodrich 591 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 4: says the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints 592 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 4: tried to pay her three hundred thousand dollars for her silence. 593 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 2: Remember the Office for Risk Management. While in twenty seventeen, 594 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: the head of the Office of Risk Management was a 595 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: guy called Paul Writting, And recently AP got their hands 596 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 2: on a recording of Paul Writting talking to a woman 597 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 2: called Chelsea Goodrich. 598 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 5: I have authorization up to three hundred thousand dollars. 599 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 2: And Chelsea alleges that when she was nine, she was 600 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 2: abused by her father, John, a former Mormon bishop. And 601 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 2: that's the sound of Paul Writting offering Chelsea three hundred 602 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 2: thousand dollars us on the condition that she never used 603 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 2: her story as a basis for a lawsuit against the church. 604 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: The other conditions keep this document secret and destroy all 605 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: the recordings Chelsea was making of her meetings with Writting. 606 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 2: In other words, an NDA and a big cash payout 607 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 2: to keep quiet, a little bit of money to save 608 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 2: a lot of reputation. Oh and by the way, all 609 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: the way back, when Chelsea's father, John made a confession 610 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 2: to his bishop, that bishop called the abuse helpline. As 611 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 2: a result, Chelsea's father was excommunicated, but of course the 612 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:29,720 Speaker 2: church never told police. Then when Chelsea, as an adult 613 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: went to the police herself, the first prosecution against her 614 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 2: father fell over because the church discouraged that bishop from 615 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: giving court testimony about the confession he'd heard and the 616 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,439 Speaker 2: call he'd made to the helpline. And that's when Paul 617 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: Ritting flew across the country to meet Chelsea in person 618 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 2: and start talking about dollar signs. That's a lot of 619 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 2: work at an extremely senior level to keep an abuse 620 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 2: case from reach court. Here's how Tim Kosnov sees that 621 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 2: kind of balancing act. 622 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 5: Money's not the issue. The church doesn't give a damn 623 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 5: about well, it cares about the money. But you know, 624 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 5: a few million here, a few million there, that's just 625 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 5: pocket change. They can spend more money than God. What 626 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 5: is expensive is the loss of credibility among the faithful. 627 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: One last side note here, that guy the Church's a 628 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: risk fixer, Paul Writting. He was last seen working in 629 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 2: New Zealand as the church's head legal counsel for the 630 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 2: Pacific Office that's New Zealand, Australia and the Pacific Islands. 631 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 2: After reading that first piece about Paul Adams and then 632 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 2: going down the rabbit hole of the abuse helpline, it 633 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 2: was impossible for me to keep thinking that the New 634 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 2: Zealand cases I knew about was simply the human failings 635 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 2: of individual bishops, you know, regret outcomes from a conservative 636 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 2: church culture that wasn't particularly well informed about sexual abuse. 637 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 2: Now it seemed obvious to me that they were actually 638 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 2: part of something much more deliberate. The church isn't just 639 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 2: turning a blind eye to child sexual abuse and other 640 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: crimes within its community. It has a centrally managed, legally 641 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 2: watertight system for reacting to these horrific cases. The crimes 642 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 2: aren't being viewed as urgent moral tragedies that require intervention 643 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 2: and rescue, but as risks that need to be managed, 644 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: not risks to the people in its care, but risks 645 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 2: to its reputation, risks to the church's bank balance. I'd 646 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 2: been thinking the church had been dropping the ball on this, 647 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 2: but as Tim Kosnov puts it, it was starting to 648 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 2: look more like. 649 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 5: They're dealing with the problem exactly the way they intended. 650 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 5: They are handling these cases knowingly, intentionally, and in accordance 651 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 5: with direction from the highest levels of the church. 652 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,399 Speaker 2: Okay, so what about New Zealand. It's not as if 653 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 2: ALTIROA has the same set up as the US with 654 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 2: its SEU in court culture, its mega lawsuits, it's mega payouts, right. Well, 655 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 2: that's true, but in some important ways, the legal setup 656 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 2: here is just the same as in the US. New 657 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: Zealand law does actually recognize priest penitent privilege PPP, that 658 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 2: special status that keeps confessions confidential. It's hardly ever been 659 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 2: tested in court, but it's there. It was rewritten into 660 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 2: the New Zealand statute books as recently as two thousand 661 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: and six. And of course we all recognize the confidentiality 662 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: between a lawyer and their client, what Americans would call 663 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 2: attorney client privilege. So those are the two key privileges 664 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 2: that the LDS Church relies on as it runs the 665 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 2: abuse helpline in the United States. Plus in New Zealand, 666 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 2: unlike Arizona and many US states, there are no mandatory 667 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 2: reporting laws. If a priest, teacher, or doctor here learns 668 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 2: of child abuse, there is no legal duty to report. 669 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 2: So the next obvious question is there a New Zealand 670 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 2: church abuse helpline. Uncovering the helpline in the US was 671 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 2: a big deal. There were lawsuits and highly motivated attorneys 672 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 2: like Tim Kosnov, and relentless digging by Pulitzer Prize winning 673 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 2: investigative journalists. So I was going to have my work 674 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 2: cut out for me. I summoned everything I had learned 675 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 2: in my career so far, and thought back to my 676 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:54,280 Speaker 2: investigative journalism training in London and googled New Zealand Mormon 677 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 2: abuse helpline And yeah, there it is on the church's website, 678 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 2: a nine digit number with Auckland's zero nine area code 679 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 2: and the words the helpline is available for bishops and 680 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,959 Speaker 2: state presidents to call twenty four hours a day, seven 681 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 2: days a week. Actually, there are loads of helplines on 682 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 2: this page. There are numbers for the US and Canada, 683 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 2: a number for the UK, for Ireland, for France, for Australia, 684 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 2: But the New Zealand helpline is the one I'm interested 685 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 2: in How often is it used, What kind of calls 686 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 2: do they receive? Does the call go straight to a 687 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 2: church lawyer? Are details of abuse cases reported back to 688 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 2: Salt Lake City, Utah? But most importantly, what advice are 689 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 2: bishops and state presidents receiving? Are they being instructed to 690 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 2: keep quiet and to hide behind priest penitent privilege? So 691 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 2: many questions and who better to answer them than whoever's 692 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 2: picking up the calls. When a bishop in New Zealand 693 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 2: picks up his phone, taps in these nine digits and 694 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,959 Speaker 2: waits for an hour answer, I guess there's a simple 695 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 2: way to find that person. It's time to call the 696 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 2: LDS Church Abuse helpline. Who was speaking to next time 697 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 2: on Heaven's helpline? He's a strange man in his name's 698 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 2: Daniel and adult no. 699 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,959 Speaker 3: So I went right into my office and I called 700 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 3: the heartline and. 701 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 5: I said, I think I've got something to report. 702 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 2: We sought comment from the Church in response to the 703 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 2: allegations in this episode. The church did not address the 704 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 2: allegations directly, but in a statement said as followers of 705 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ members of the Church of Jesus Christ of 706 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 2: Latter day Saints, A poor abuse of any kind. As 707 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 2: a church, we invest heavily on prevention and response, and 708 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 2: we will continue to do so. When a lay leader 709 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,359 Speaker 2: of one of our congregation learns of abuse, they are 710 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 2: asked to immediately call a helpline to assist them, to 711 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: protect the victim, and to ensure that perpetrators face the 712 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 2: consequences of their actions. Most of the reports of abuse 713 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 2: that come to the attention of church leaders come from 714 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 2: victims or their families and involve abuse away from church 715 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 2: buildings and church activities. Helpline staff offer advice that is 716 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 2: focused firstly on protecting and caring for the victim. Working 717 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,280 Speaker 2: with local church leaders, the helpline ensures compliance with legal 718 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 2: reporting obligations, encourages the victim or victim's family to report 719 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 2: the abuse to civil authorities, and helps connect victims with 720 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 2: professionals who can provide counseling assistance. Heaven's Helpline was funded 721 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 2: by New Zealand On Air and The New Zealand Herald 722 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 2: for enz Edme and iHeartRadio. It was researched, written and 723 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 2: presented by Me Murray Jones. My producers were Adam Dudding, 724 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 2: who co wrote the series, and Kirston Johnston from Popsot Media, 725 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: who edited and sound designed it Phil Brownlee as our 726 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 2: sound engineer. Music was by Thomas Arbor and Anita Clark. 727 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 2: News clippings came from Fox News thirteen, Utah, twelve News, 728 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 2: NBC and ABC four Utah. Audio of Paul Ritting was 729 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 2: supplied by Reveal and the Associated Press. Thank you to 730 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 2: Microzendees and Jason Doorday for your dedicated investigative work on 731 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 2: the church. Ethan Sills is executive producer here at New 732 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 2: Zealand Herald. If you have a story you'd like to 733 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 2: share with me about the LDS Church, or just want 734 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 2: to get in touch, email me securely at Murray Reports 735 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 2: at Proton dot m E or dm me on X 736 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,399 Speaker 2: at Murray Reports. And for more on this podcast, head 737 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:05,840 Speaker 2: to NZ Herald dot co dot nz slash Heaven's helpline. 738 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 2: It's time intensive doing investigations like this, so if you 739 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,439 Speaker 2: value this kind of journalism, please support it by going 740 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 2: to your podcast platform and rating and reviewing the series