1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Mining 3 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: has become a key part of the government's plans for 4 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: economic growth. Resources Minister and self appointed martywa of Mining 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: Shane Jones, has unveiled a plan to double exports to 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: three billion dollars by twenty thirty five, alongside a list 7 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: of thirty seven strong critical minerals and a national mineral strategy. 8 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: While the plan has been met with some criticism from 9 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: environmentalists and the opposition, there has been some positive feedback 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: from academics, praising the plan for its commitment to pipeline development. 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: But do the numbers stack up? And how many of 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: those critical minerals are actually sitting beneath our feet today? 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: On the front page, Massy University professor of geography Glenn 14 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: Banks is with us to dig into the government's mining plans. Glenn, 15 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: you wrote recently that society needs mining, and mining itself 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: is not inherently or necessarily rapacious. Can you expand on 17 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: that for us? 18 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 2: I suppose two parts. 19 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 3: One is our society is built on minerals that are mined. 20 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: The mining industry has a nice little saying that goes, 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 3: if it's not growing, then it's mined, and that applies 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: to everything within society. So everything from the technology we're 23 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 3: using today to the desk you're sitting at to the 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: building you're in heavily reliant, totally reliant on a mining sector. 25 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: So we need it now. 26 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: In terms of does that mean we should give them 27 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: free license to run around and do what they like. 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: For a long time we kind of did, and then 29 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: really from the nineteen sixties seventies onwards, there's been increasing 30 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 3: regulation of the sector to try and make sure that 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: they don't or that they behave in a responsible way 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 3: in terms of their environmental impact but also their contribution 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: to the economy and to society generally. So that's why 34 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: you see mining companies have big corporate social responsibility programs 35 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 3: where they make sure that they're very visible in terms 36 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: of what they're doing in the communities that they operate in. So, yeah, 37 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: we need them, and they don't necessarily always make a 38 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 3: horrible mess. These days, it's much better. It's much better regulated, 39 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: and I think one of the things about the draft 40 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 3: Mineral Strategy that was released was that there was a 41 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: very nice statement in there and the introduction to it 42 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: which talks about exactly that, about we need a mining industry, 43 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 3: but we need one that actually behaves. A lot of 44 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 3: the mining sector does behave pretty well. 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: With all that in mind, I guess what was your 46 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: first reaction to the government's new mining policy. 47 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: Well, like I say, I. 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: Think there's some good stuff in there, and I think 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: Shane Jones is he's completely right that we need a 50 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: longer term vision for what we want from the mining industry. 51 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: For too long, it's just been hidden miss. 52 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: You know, the miners will come and go, but we 53 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: haven't had a clear sense of the sector and the 54 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 3: way in which it can contribute to society generally. So 55 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 3: that strategic element I think is good. There's very little 56 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: in terms of detail about what that means in terms 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: of how the industry is going to be managed differently 58 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 3: now to what it was previously. Shane Jones's line that 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 3: you know, now we'll be able to miners will be 60 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 3: able to get up and operate. They were previously the 61 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: Federation gold Mine in Reefed and started up under the 62 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: previous government. It got all it's consenting under the previous 63 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 3: government through the regional Council and local council. So it's 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 3: not like mining was completely off the cards previously. You know, 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 3: he's trying to make a case that, ah, there was 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 3: no mining. You know, mining was. 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: Impossible before it wasn't. 68 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: So it's a little bit hard to see exactly how 69 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: things are going to be very different the fast The 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: linking of the mineral strategy with the fast track legislation 71 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: is probably the most obvious sign that we're going to 72 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: see less real detailed examination of the new mining prospects 73 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 3: out there, the way in which well I'm sure you 74 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: know and lots of the listeners would know about the 75 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 3: criticism of the fast track legislation, just removing some of 76 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: that oversight of the environmental impacts and certainly reducing the 77 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 3: amount of public consultation in the process. 78 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 2: So that's that's of concern. 79 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: If we're starting to wind back the dial in terms 80 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 3: of the amount of really close looking at the industry 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 3: before we allow for new minds around the place. 82 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: Well, labor reckons that it's shortsighted, environmentally, reckless and a 83 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: giveaway to private mining interests. Are they right to have 84 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: those concerns? 85 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: Do you think? Yeah? 86 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: I think they absolutely are and that was one of 87 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: the things that struck me about the changes that were 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: made to the Criticalerals list when that came through, when 89 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: Shane Jones talked about that on Friday, including gold and 90 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: the coal on the Critical Minerals list. I mean, the 91 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: current the way in which critical minerals have been defined 92 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 3: globally in the last five years when the terms come 93 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: back into vogue, has been about minerals that support the 94 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: green transition. 95 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: That's been the real emphasis. And to put. 96 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 3: Coal on that list just seems a bit obnoxious, really, 97 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 3: and it completely undermines the credibility of the list in 98 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 3: the eyes of anyone with an interest in green transition processes. 99 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: It's really about securing the place of the existing industry 100 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 3: and making sure that the minerals we have are able 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: to be exploited by corporate interests. It's nothing to do 102 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: with supporting the green transition. You know that critical minerals 103 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: doing our bit for the green transition. 104 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: That's just a cloak. 105 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 3: For more coal and more gold as far as I can. 106 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 4: See, right, I mean, what would be the climate impacts 107 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 4: of that of increasing coal extraction? 108 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 5: Well, it's not there's no very little climate impact on 109 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 5: an extraction. 110 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 4: Sure, but that's straight to to burn, right, Yeah, and. 111 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 5: So when our coal goes to places like India, their 112 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 5: coal is high ash, ours is low ash. So it's 113 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 5: actually better for the environment. Obviously, people want to stop 114 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 5: using coal, but at the moment people are using coal. 115 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 5: We have coal. We have coal mines on the West 116 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 5: Coast where mining is about a fifth of the GDP. 117 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 118 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: Shane Jones noted that of the thirty seven minerals included 119 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: on that list, we produce or have the potential to 120 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: produce twenty one here in New Zealand. Does that mean 121 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: that there are some we might be able to produce 122 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: but we don't actually know for certain what's happening with 123 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: the other sixteen. 124 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: Well, the ones down the bottom of his list, the 125 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: other sixteen are ones that we it's been decided that 126 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: we need to try and secure supplies of them for 127 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 3: the ongoing functioning of our industry and manufacturing. And so 128 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 3: the statement's quite clear that the ones that we can't 129 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: produce in the country, the only way that we're able 130 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: to secure supply is building good relationships with the countries 131 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 3: and the companies that are involved in extraction of those minerals. 132 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: So it's about supply chain security rather than anything that 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: we might potentially do in the future. The critical minerals 134 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: list that we have is quite unique. We're the only 135 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: country of the major countries that have produced a list. 136 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: Of critical minerals which have aggregate on. 137 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 3: It, so quarries rock and sand for construction when that 138 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: was on the draft list. And one of the things 139 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: that struck me about that was that was actually a 140 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 3: fairly realistic proposition. If you look at the easily the 141 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: largest number of mining operations, if you can call them 142 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: that quarries and aggregate gravel pits that we use to 143 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: get the stones that we need for construction and roading 144 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: and all of those those other supplies. That's, in a sense, 145 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: that's a much more strategic interest to us. And I 146 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: thought it was quite realistic, as I say, to put 147 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 3: aggregate on the list of critical minerals. But what it 148 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: does is it shifts that that dial completely away from 149 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: this notion that the global notion the critical minerals are 150 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 3: the ones to support a green transition. It's more about 151 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 3: it's a much more a strategic list of minerals that 152 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: we need rather than a list of critical minerals. Right. 153 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: So minerals like copper, nickel, and cobalt, they're key in 154 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: the production of many clean energy technologies, right, They're needed 155 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: to make batteries for electric vehicles and wind turn bins 156 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: and things like that. But they're also I guess used 157 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: for other more nefarious I guess purposes, weapons and things 158 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: like that. How do we strike a balance between looking 159 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: at things that we need to create clean energy versus 160 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: perhaps those other kind of things. 161 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's where things become very very muddied. The 162 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: critical minerals we need for the green transition. If you 163 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 3: listed some of them out there, copernickel, things like lithium, 164 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 3: to regard it as the much more in terms of volume, 165 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 3: far and away the most significant ones for a green transition. 166 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 3: So it's things that we already produce and we already 167 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 3: use for the wide range of things across society, including 168 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 3: some of those what you labeled nefarious activities. So the 169 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: military sector in the US is highly dependent on massive 170 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 3: amounts of supply of those same minerals. So it's not 171 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 3: like these things that are just used solely for the 172 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 3: green transition, and that to say that, you know, we 173 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: need to do more of this for the green transition 174 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: is again it's a cloak for other forms of use 175 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 3: that a lot of these minerals are put towards. 176 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: How do we strike a balance though, or do we 177 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: just have to trust companies to do the right thing. 178 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and in some commodities there are we are starting 179 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: to see companies and regulators they're really looking at where 180 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 3: these things are coming from and conditions of extraction. So 181 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 3: the obvious one conflict diamonds that have been around for 182 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: a while now, where basically the ones that you're supposed 183 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: to be buying in shops are coming from areas which 184 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 3: are certified not to be involved in violent conflict of 185 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 3: one kind or another. So gold is another one which 186 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: they're starting to look at in terms of where it's 187 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 3: coming from. There's real concerns about cobalt and coal, tan 188 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 3: and some of those other critical minerals needed for green 189 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 3: energy transition coming out of places like the DRC Democratic 190 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 3: Republic of Congo, because they are coming out of conditions 191 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 3: of conflict, of child. 192 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: Labor and all sorts of human rights abuses. 193 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 3: So trying to find balances in terms of the extraction 194 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 3: where these things are coming from is a little bit 195 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 3: easier than trying to regulate how they are used. 196 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: Once they hit the global markets. 197 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: So yeah, there's a fair element of trust, but there's 198 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 3: also a blindness that we have to adopt to some 199 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 3: of these things. When you think about the size of 200 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: the military apparatus that's operating around the world that consume 201 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 3: such vast quantities of these minerals. 202 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: You mentioned that many of these minerals are being mined 203 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: in poorer countries. Hey, wasn't it actually until last year 204 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: when we were talking about the New Caledonia riots on 205 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: this podcast that I actually learned that those islands are 206 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: a major source of the world's nickel, something Tesla uses 207 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: for its evs and stuff. 208 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 4: Nickel is huge in New Caledonia. They have upwards of 209 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: twenty percent of global reserve. Some estimates say up to 210 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 4: thirty percent of global nickel reserves, and it's a very 211 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 4: precious metal and used in electric vehicle batteries. In fact, 212 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 4: a deal was struck with Tesla back in twenty twenty 213 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 4: one for one of the major minds there in New Caledonia. 214 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 4: So the significance of New Caledonia is not going away. 215 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: Can we ever move to a greener society? Without utilizing 216 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: these resources or does it come hand in hand. 217 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a fairly lengthy academic literature on the relationship 218 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: between mineral extraction and conflict, and there's a sense in 219 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: which in a lot of parts of the world, particularly 220 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: where governance isn't great, you get a vicious cycle between 221 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 3: increasing extraction of minerals that leads feeds into economic mismanagement, corruption, violence, conflict, 222 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: and all of these sorts of things. So there is 223 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: a real concern about that. Yeah, neucleodonia is interesting. There's 224 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 3: some really interesting stuff going on in terms of nickel 225 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: extraction these days out of Indonesia, which is completely reshaped 226 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: the nickel supply chain quite markedly. Interestingly, there's massive Chinese 227 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: investment in nickel in Indonesia in particular. So the geopolitics 228 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: of all of this become really interesting when you think that, 229 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: roughly on taking across all of the various elements, about 230 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 3: forty percent of global supply of the so called transition 231 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 3: minerals come out of China. 232 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: You mentioned gold and coal on the list of thirty seven. 233 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 1: I understand that this is a push to perhaps introduce 234 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: new minerals to our market, be able to export different 235 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: kinds of minerals. But what do you think the chances 236 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: are of this happening and they're just being a whole 237 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: bunch more gold mines pop up. 238 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 3: Well, I think one of the points that may have 239 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: been changed Jones. It may have been one of the 240 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: other commentators made was to start up a gold mine, 241 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 3: or to start up any kind of mining, there's actually 242 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 3: a fair lead time associated with it, so we're not 243 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 3: likely to see we might see a gold mine or. 244 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: Two in the next few years. 245 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: This stuff around Central Otago, for example, and certainly around 246 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: where there's some fairly advanced gold prospects, again all developed 247 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: under the previous government. 248 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: But in terms of some of the. 249 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 3: Things like vanadium and antemy might be slightly different in 250 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: the sense that it's often co produced with gold. So 251 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 3: the reeft and deposit that they're looking at for antimony 252 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: is co produced with gold in many instances. So there's 253 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: a possibility that if gold gets up and running relatively 254 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: quickly there, we might start to see some increased supply 255 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: out of the West coast. But things like vanadium, which 256 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: trans Tasman resources are suddenly discovered. Late last year was 257 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 3: fairly high quantities in the ironstand that they're looking at 258 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 3: off Taranaki, that is probably going to be a longer 259 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: term prospect. So you know, ten years from binding a 260 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: prospect to opening a opening a mine of any kind 261 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: is not one typical in the industry. Shane Jones clearly 262 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: wants to try and speed that process up. But whether 263 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 3: we actually start to see any of that, give that 264 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: the expiration for a lot of the transition minerals still 265 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 3: need or the critical minerals on that list still needs 266 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 3: to be done. So it's going to be ten years 267 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 3: at least before any of these potential and perspective critical 268 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: minerals start to come online. 269 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 6: Now, I know this anoise some of the green beetles, 270 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 6: but they're never ever going to accept my pro industry, 271 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 6: pro growth agenda, and I just have to acknowledge that 272 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 6: their players and their stakeholders in the broader political system 273 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 6: and respect of mining, we are going to turbocharge mining. 274 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 6: We are going to increase our export revenue from mining, 275 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 6: our job prospects and mining, and it'll be done within guardrails. 276 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 6: But we're not going to have mining tainted and stigmatized 277 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 6: by false information and have it blighted high history onics 278 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 6: and that's pretty much what the Green Party and their 279 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 6: fellow travelers represent. 280 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: Glenn, you and a colleague once proposed seven key behaviors 281 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: for a mining sector committed to sustainable development. What are 282 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: some of the key things these companies need to commit to. 283 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: Well, there's a few that really stand out. The first 284 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: is that they in terms of the sorts of behaviors, 285 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: they should be aiming for absolute world best practice in 286 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 3: terms of environmental and social management practices. The mining industry 287 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 3: here might like to and you know, there are some 288 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: pretty responsible operators, but there's also some lapses from time 289 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: to time. So, just in the last six months, I've 290 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,479 Speaker 3: been keeping track of the number of breaches of environmental 291 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 3: monitoring conditions that coal and gold mines around the place 292 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 3: have found themselves in trouble with. 293 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: So McCrae's Blackdown and Sinfilote. 294 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: Were found in breach of the monitoring requirements that they had, 295 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 3: the environmental monitoring requirements they had down there, the Stockton mine, 296 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 3: the coal mine, some of the rehabilitation efforts there. The 297 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: amount of money that the government's having to invest in 298 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 3: the rehabilitation and monitoring of that exceeds the royalties that 299 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: we're receiving from the mind itself, so you know that 300 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: those sorts of environmental aspects need to be improved. They're 301 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 3: also interestingly in that the Critical Mineral Strategy and Shane 302 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 3: Jones did and say very much about this, and one 303 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 3: of the points that we made was that the industry 304 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 3: needs to pay more attention to and actually proactively get 305 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 3: involved in reuse and recycling of minerals. There's a lot 306 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 3: of minerals that we don't need to mine if we 307 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 3: were to be to take much more seriously the idea 308 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: of reuse and reminding a recycling of minerals that currently 309 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 3: just find themselves on the way to waste stumps. So 310 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 3: those sorts of behaviors, greater transparency, and one of the 311 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 3: ones that I really think we need to talk about 312 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 3: a lot more here in turn rower is the notion 313 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 3: of a fair share of the mineral resource. So making 314 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 3: sure that a fair share of the value of resources 315 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 3: actually resides in the country. It's not a discussion that 316 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 3: we've actually had as part of either the Critical Minerals 317 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: or the Draft Mineral Strategy. We hear that twenty one 318 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 3: million dollars in royalties came to the government in twenty 319 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: three twenty four from the mineral sector. When you think 320 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: about the value of minerals that we also in the 321 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 3: same breath here are being exported, then that's really a 322 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 3: very very small share of the total value comes back 323 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 3: to the New Zealand people. So those sorts of behaviors, 324 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 3: I think are ones that we need to really look 325 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 3: quite closely at in terms of if we go forward 326 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: with an expansion of the mineral sector. 327 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: Right, so, do you think that doubling mineral exports by 328 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: three billion dollars in a decade is realistic? 329 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 3: Well, the price of gold went up by six percent 330 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: last year in one year, so if that trend continues, 331 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 3: then shange zones and the mineral sector won't have to 332 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: do anything at all to double mineral exports. It could 333 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 3: happen in the next three years at that kind of rate. 334 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 3: So that kind of figure is just to me, it's 335 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: just a complete perfect There's so much volatility in the 336 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 3: mineral prices globally, you know, the sorts of things that 337 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 3: he's looking at or that the sector is looking at. Vanadium, 338 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 3: for example, the prices bounce all around the place. So 339 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 3: in any one particular year you might find that mineral resources. 340 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 3: The value of mineral exports might well double even if 341 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: there's not a significant uptick in production from those minerals, 342 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 3: and that volatility, by the way, makes it really hard 343 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: to regulate the sector from the point of view of 344 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 3: the government too, So investors are much more interested in 345 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 3: investing in gold or any of these other minerals when 346 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 3: the prices are high, So regardless of what the government does, 347 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 3: it's going to get much more attention if the prices 348 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: of commodities like gold or vanadium or any of these 349 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: others start to increase quite dramatically. Vanadium, by the way, 350 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 3: the market consensus seems to be that prices are likely 351 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 3: to fall between twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven. 352 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 3: So whether the market for that actually holds up, and 353 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 3: whether that plays into trans Tasman resources that the economics 354 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: of their operation is going to be interesting to see. 355 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: Are we going to double mineral exports in the next 356 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 3: ten years, Ask the market, have a look at what 357 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 3: the market's doing, and it's going to be really hard 358 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 3: to pick. So it's more I think a more realistic 359 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: approach to ask whether we're going to see an increase 360 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: in the actual amount of mining that happens across the country. 361 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: Given the approach that's been taken with the fast tracked legislation, 362 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 3: I think the answer to that is yes, but it's 363 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 3: also worth pointing out I think that the established gold mines, 364 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 3: and particularly the Oceanian gold ones, have a relatively limited light, 365 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: not much beyond the twenty thirty five limit. So McCrae's 366 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 3: flat and why he could well both be exhausted by 367 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 3: twenty thirty five twenty the next ten to fifteen years. 368 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Glenn, no problem at all. That's 369 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: it for this episode of the Front Page. You can 370 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at 371 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: enzadherld dot co dot mz. The Front Page is produced 372 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our 373 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 374 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 375 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.