Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francisca Rudkin and I'm Louis Area, and welcome
Speaker 1: to season five of our new Zealand Here podcast, The
Speaker 1: Little Things Good to have you with us. So in
Speaker 1: this podcast, we're joined by experts in their field to
Speaker 1: talk about the little things that you need to know
Speaker 1: to improve all areas of your life. And but there's
Speaker 1: lots of information and confusion out there, so we try
Speaker 1: and cut through that to bring you some clarity so
Speaker 1: you can make your own well informed decisions on your
Speaker 1: well being. So you remember last season, we spoke to
Speaker 1: Kathy Duffy, Yes, ultra Marison runner and a real advocate
Speaker 1: of women just pursuing stuff through them see the menopause
Speaker 1: or us or the glory us as she called them.
Speaker 1: Last season. I was so inspired by her that I
Speaker 1: decided to train to do a trail Morison early next year. Now,
Speaker 1: Francisca and I have been talking about how much of
Speaker 1: that training of foreigner event comes in the form of,
Speaker 1: you know, comes down to mental toughness as much as
Speaker 1: physical fitness, which I don't have much of either actually
Speaker 1: at the moment, but anyway, I'm working on it. So
Speaker 1: we've been talking techniques that sports psychologists used to help
Speaker 1: elite sleeps. We gained focus, manage their anxiety, so motivated,
Speaker 1: and cope with setbacks and all of those things are
Speaker 1: really important to you at the moment, Lou, to help
Speaker 1: you achieve your goal. But then we got to thinking,
Speaker 1: which is something which happens occasionally here on the little things,
Speaker 1: and we were like, well, I wonder if we can
Speaker 1: actually take these tools that elite athletes use and apply
Speaker 1: them to our everyday lives, all those little goals and
Speaker 1: things we have for ourselves and every day just just
Speaker 1: managing stress, managing precious situations at work, having a goal,
Speaker 1: staying motivated about things. It kind of it was like,
Speaker 1: hang on a minute, maybe there's something in this that
Speaker 1: we that we could kind of all get on board with.
Speaker 1: I think this is something I do in my everyday
Speaker 1: life as well as my you know, when I'm setting
Speaker 1: a goalf for an event, I have a habit of
Speaker 1: saying it out loud and thinking that that the rest
Speaker 1: of it will just magically unfold. And you know this
Speaker 1: about me, and this is despiting lived experience of it
Speaker 1: not being the case. It's never worked for me. Do
Speaker 1: you remember that Tassic Travis, I told you I've been
Speaker 1: doing a bit of training over summer and I did
Speaker 1: it and know how to panic attack in the first kilometer.
Speaker 1: Oh it was so yeah, no blessing. You were like,
Speaker 1: you just go, just go, and I'm like, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to leave you. And I couldn't leave you because
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know what she's going to
Speaker 1: end up. What might just lose her on and it's
Speaker 1: not pay her the de somewhere, but it's a metaphor
Speaker 1: for my life. But you also did admit as we
Speaker 1: were driving to the stat line that actually the training
Speaker 1: had evolved quite a lot of summer beers and that
Speaker 1: maybe you know you kind of did not on the
Speaker 1: back of your mind, but you just now, I've just
Speaker 1: entered another event that is at the end of summer. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I think you added, You're completely different this time because
Speaker 1: you know what it entails. You've done enough to know
Speaker 1: that you can't rock up to what you're going to
Speaker 1: go and do without doing the work. But it is
Speaker 1: interesting because you're doing all the strength work and you're
Speaker 1: doing all the physical work and things, but on the day,
Speaker 1: it's going to be your brain that gets you to
Speaker 1: the end. It's going to be your mind that gets
Speaker 1: you to that finish line. And as much as I
Speaker 1: love running around the hills, it still gets monotonous. It
Speaker 1: So how do you keep going? We're using you as
Speaker 1: a little bit of a guinea pig because as much
Speaker 1: as I've done a lot of events as well on things,
Speaker 1: I've never used any kind of tiple technique or anything
Speaker 1: to kind of make me mentally tough. Forthing, I've literally
Speaker 1: just gritted it out. I've literally my approach has been, oh,
Speaker 1: I just have to finish. If it means I crawl
Speaker 1: over the finish line. I crawled over the finish line.
Speaker 1: But I've always just gone. Remember when I was hanging
Speaker 1: that tree at the end of the Tara Wearra Trail
Speaker 1: Marathon and I says, Tack, you're very kindly, just like
Speaker 1: I don't think you are. But I was sure that
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to make it. And actually, once I'd
Speaker 1: had my little moment, I then just keep going because
Speaker 1: to me, then my mind I just go. There is
Speaker 1: actually no other choice. So I just gritted out. But
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a much more sophisticated way that we
Speaker 1: could be dealing with these problems and then of course
Speaker 1: bringing it into our real lives. I mean, are you
Speaker 1: I mean you've set this goal? Well I know, I
Speaker 1: just I just entered something again. It's not the same thing.
Speaker 1: I don't think you know what I mean, like you're
Speaker 1: trying to It's a gap between knowing and doing right right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I guess I also look at other people who
Speaker 1: set goals like one year, two year, three year, five
Speaker 1: year goals not not exercise really admire people I've got
Speaker 1: a five or ten year goal. Well they do they
Speaker 1: learn something I didn't learn.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm not think people did tell us to set goals
Speaker 1: and we were were fine, We're just wanting it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then you get to midlife and you go those goals
Speaker 1: aren't goals. It's just actually living, being able to do something.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I really want to get out
Speaker 1: of this today? I want to get an idea about
Speaker 1: how to bounce back from a setback, because I think
Speaker 1: that in day to day life, when we're managing jobs
Speaker 1: and families and kids and there's a lot going on,
Speaker 1: there's always something's always falling over right, the ship setting
Speaker 1: the fan somewhere, there's always a set back somewhere, and
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that today I'm going to be able to
Speaker 1: kind of get a tiple technical or two that just
Speaker 1: makes me stop and pause and take a big deck
Speaker 1: breath and actually be able to handle that and move forward,
Speaker 1: you know, et with a bit of positivity. There's a
Speaker 1: sign on somebody's store at work that says, if you're
Speaker 1: going through hell, just keep going. And I think it
Speaker 1: might be George or Well or something. I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: but I'd like to change that. It's like this to pass. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but if you're going through hell, make a plan and
Speaker 1: visualize your way out of it. I don't know. Visualization
Speaker 1: something I'm really going to see talk about us to
Speaker 1: talk about as well, because it always sounds like a
Speaker 1: really good idea, but I get halfway through it and
Speaker 1: I get bored and I just go into something else.
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how it's supposed to work. So
Speaker 1: that's a great commitment anyway. So to kill two birds
Speaker 1: with one stone to help me achieve my goal and
Speaker 1: help us all deal with the challenges that life throws
Speaker 1: at us. We're joined by mental skills and performance coach
Speaker 1: doctor Kylie Wilson. Kylie has a PhD in performance psychology
Speaker 1: and is herself a former professional athlete. She has worked
Speaker 1: with some of our best teams and athletes, from Olympians
Speaker 1: to many of our national teams to help them fulfill
Speaker 1: their potential and achieve their goals. Kylie, welcome, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming in today. Thank you for having
Speaker 1: me so excited you're here. Can you first up, just
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about you and this fascinating
Speaker 1: career that you have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I couldn't say that it was very crafted. I
Speaker 3: felt like I fell into it. So I actually wanted
Speaker 3: to be a police officer. And then they said go
Speaker 3: to university and get some life experience. So I thought
Speaker 3: I'll be a forensic kind of criminal psychologist or criminal lawyer.
Speaker 3: So I studied psychology and law and realized law was
Speaker 3: not for me. So then a lot of my friends
Speaker 3: I was playing rugby down Otago and they were all
Speaker 3: doing sort of sports science. So I fell into that
Speaker 3: and loved the kind of sports psychology aspect of it.
Speaker 3: So didn't know where it would take me, but I
Speaker 3: really enjoyed it. And then my supervisor at the time,
Speaker 3: Ken Hodge, he said, do you want to do a
Speaker 3: PhD over in the UK. My dad's Welsh, so I'd
Speaker 3: planned to go over there anyway, And yeah, I ended
Speaker 3: up sort of doing a PhD. And now it's my job.
Speaker 3: So I feel like it's just my passion has led
Speaker 3: me versus like me, you know, thinking oh, this is
Speaker 3: what I'm going to do and I'm going to find
Speaker 3: a way to do it. So feel very very lucky
Speaker 3: that it's what I get to do for a living.
Speaker 1: So do you mind me asking how long guess you
Speaker 1: goo you were at Otago? Because that those sports sciences
Speaker 1: courses are really choc a block full of ambitious young
Speaker 1: you know, potential sports psychologists or sports managers. Now was
Speaker 1: it like that when you started?
Speaker 3: I think the physical sciences like your physiology and things
Speaker 3: like that were far more advanced in terms of like
Speaker 3: career pathways. Certainly Ken Hodge, who was my supervisor, would
Speaker 3: he's still there at Otago. He would say that there's
Speaker 3: probably only a handfuluss he'll come through that program and
Speaker 3: actually gone on to be sports psychologists so or work
Speaker 3: in that field. So I wouldn't say that the psychology
Speaker 3: part of it was that dominant at the time.
Speaker 1: M interesting, how long did you played rugby Forore.
Speaker 3: I started Otago, so it would have been about fifteen
Speaker 3: years I would have played for, so really good rounding
Speaker 3: to start at Otago. Played with a lot of black
Speaker 3: Ferns back then, and then when I moved to WLS
Speaker 3: do my PhD. Yeah, I think after six months of
Speaker 3: arriving I was in the Welsh team, so it was
Speaker 3: a pretty quick promotion.
Speaker 1: What position were you open side.
Speaker 2: Plankets or seven? Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you use yourself as a bit of a guinea
Speaker 1: pig as you were studying as well?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually really enjoyed doing that. So as I
Speaker 3: was learning, I was just practicing all the tools myself
Speaker 3: and my own performance, and then I was coaching as well,
Speaker 3: so I would integrate it into my coaching and then
Speaker 3: as part of the Welsh team you got access to
Speaker 3: work with sports psychologists, so I kind of felt like
Speaker 3: I had, you know, a sort of three pronged approach
Speaker 3: to developing my understanding of the skills, and I feel
Speaker 3: like that's set me up to work really well with
Speaker 3: other coaches, So that does make sense. Having It's nice
Speaker 3: to have the theory but been able to put it
Speaker 3: into practice at the same time. And see it from
Speaker 3: a different point of view from the other side. I
Speaker 3: can imagine that was hugely valuable. Yeah, often I'd get
Speaker 3: a little bit of a sideways look because I'd try
Speaker 3: some things with the groups I was working with, and
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say they are very traditional from what was
Speaker 3: being taught in the coaching courses and things. But I
Speaker 3: worked with a young Welsh team. We were I think
Speaker 3: Wales under twenty and we were the first Welsh team
Speaker 3: to beat England. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah at any age group.
Speaker 3: So in the women's side, and yeah, it was I
Speaker 3: think some of their strategies or process I was putting
Speaker 3: them through just made them see the game differently and
Speaker 3: work differently together. So yeah, I loved using them as
Speaker 3: my guinea pigs. I guess to try some things out.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about who you've worked with,
Speaker 1: because you've worked with individuals and teams. Is that quite
Speaker 1: a different dynamic.
Speaker 3: Absolutely yep. So I do love working in the team space.
Speaker 3: I like the challenge of how you get people to
Speaker 3: work together under pressure. It's a little bit more complex,
Speaker 3: but also yeah, I just like the team environment. So
Speaker 3: I guess early on work with men's blacksticks, then silver Ferns,
Speaker 3: so in the netbull space, and then sort of worked
Speaker 3: in various rugby settings, so Blues, Super Rugby, lots of
Speaker 3: the sort of NPC level New Zealand Under twenty for
Speaker 3: a while in and out of the Black Fern sevens
Speaker 3: and who are currently one of the teams I currently support,
Speaker 3: and they're operating at a very high level, so you're
Speaker 3: really challenged in what you do with them in terms
Speaker 3: of taking them to a level that not many people
Speaker 3: have been before. And then have started in November last
Speaker 3: year with the Warriors, so that's my first time in
Speaker 3: rugby league, which has been really exciting. And then individuals,
Speaker 3: so working five sport New Zealand, you work with Olympic campaigns.
Speaker 3: So I had the pleasure of working with Luca Jones
Speaker 3: for twelve years, so she was the canoe slalem paddler
Speaker 3: and then after her came Finn Butcher, so I worked
Speaker 3: with in that sport. With those individuals, I've done a
Speaker 3: little bit in various campaigns Trithlon weightlifting. Yes, you sort
Speaker 3: of end up supporting a few campaigns in those different
Speaker 3: sort of Olympic sports.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a huge variation and it cannot be one
Speaker 1: size fits all approach.
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely not. You know, you have some principles of
Speaker 3: practice and some approaches that are underpin your practice, but
Speaker 3: it's how you marry those two a the individual and
Speaker 3: be the demands of the sport. So you can imagine,
Speaker 3: like lifting a weight above your head is a lot
Speaker 3: different to a canoe sylm course, which is a lot
Speaker 3: of decision making as you're going down, reading the water,
Speaker 3: very sort of being present in the moment, versus a
Speaker 3: kind of very short, sharp like aggressive power movement. So
Speaker 3: you've got to really look at the demands of the
Speaker 3: sport to see what's needed, but also how the individual
Speaker 3: approaches that. So you spend a lot of time actually
Speaker 3: trying to learn the person and then apply your knowledge
Speaker 3: to that person and see what kind of joins up.
Speaker 2: So it's it's an art versus science most of the time.
Speaker 1: It must also be quite interesting. As you say, you
Speaker 1: work with the Warriors, and I love the NRL. We're
Speaker 1: big Warriors fans in our house, but my goodness, they
Speaker 1: put us through the ring fans, right, So, but that's
Speaker 1: week to week compared to when you're dealing with an Olympian.
Speaker 1: They have got this campaign and they work for four
Speaker 1: years and then you have this one moment. You know,
Speaker 1: that's that's a completely different pressure, isn't it It is?
Speaker 3: It's I think what like for in Severns, for example,
Speaker 3: is an Olympic sports both play the World Series every
Speaker 3: year so that they're you know, it's not like they
Speaker 3: don't do anything and then just do that, but it's
Speaker 3: all roads lead to the Olympics. You know, you're always
Speaker 3: that's sort of your focus. Is what we're doing now
Speaker 3: going to get us to we want to be by
Speaker 3: the Olympics. So the narrative is definitely like, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: it's this real pinnacle moment and what someone like you
Speaker 3: know Canuslalem for example, that they are pretty under the
Speaker 3: radar for four years and then suddenly not a lot
Speaker 3: of So it's a lot of the external noise and
Speaker 3: attention and distraction that is quite novel to manage. And
Speaker 3: so we did do a lot of work about talking
Speaker 3: about preparing for it, but there's nothing like experiencing it.
Speaker 3: And that's why you normally see most people do better
Speaker 3: at their seat in Olympics in there first because they
Speaker 3: figure out how to better deal with that sort of distraction,
Speaker 3: noise and the chaos of kind of the Olympic environment,
Speaker 3: which it is, it is pretty interesting environment.
Speaker 1: And as spectators with the Olympics, he's always that one
Speaker 1: sport where you know, we didn't know anything about and
Speaker 1: then suddenly we're seeing it all the time, and then
Speaker 1: we're fully backing that person and that's I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know if they feel that pressure, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's quite incredible. It's like with the pole volt, wasn't
Speaker 1: Eliza mcahey. Yeah, yeah, it's like, I mean, but just
Speaker 1: being in a meeting that day. It was a sad day,
Speaker 1: but I had a meeting and we just all stopped
Speaker 1: and you know, watched because we were just so suddenly
Speaker 1: obsessed by this one individual sport.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of point in your
Speaker 3: identity development. You know, you go from being not recognized
Speaker 3: and not really you know, that's not important, and then
Speaker 3: suddenly you know and Atho I work with one a
Speaker 3: gold medal and was suddenly like you know, he said,
Speaker 3: the Prime Minister text him. He was like, what the hell,
Speaker 3: what's going on? You know, like why am I suddenly white?
Speaker 3: A pea will suddenly get interested? So it's an interesting
Speaker 3: shift for them in terms of how they think the
Speaker 3: world sees them. Suddenly is someone special or important and
Speaker 3: yeah that they've got They have to process that because
Speaker 3: it changes the way they kind of hold themselves, I guess.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting. So why does an athlete come to you?
Speaker 1: What do they hope to get from working with you?
Speaker 3: I think of a variety of reasons. Like I think
Speaker 3: traditionally it would be because maybe something's not working like
Speaker 3: they feel it should be. Maybe they feel like they've
Speaker 3: got potential but they can't access it at the right time.
Speaker 3: Maybe they have a specific issue like anxiety or something
Speaker 3: like that. But sometimes athletes, and this is happening more
Speaker 3: and more regularly now, is they they just want to
Speaker 3: know how to get as much out of themselves as
Speaker 3: they can. So it's not a deficit model. It's a
Speaker 3: real how do I optimize myself through using mental strategy?
Speaker 3: So that's definitely more of the case now. It's become
Speaker 3: so much more normalized in terms of you know, you
Speaker 3: have a nutritionists and you have a strengthening conditioning coach,
Speaker 3: and you have your mindset coach. So it's now something
Speaker 3: that is just part of a team of people that
Speaker 3: help that person or that team get the most out
Speaker 3: of themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting you say that about the deficit
Speaker 1: model versas, so they've got a platform and they're looking
Speaker 1: to expand on that rather than they know that they
Speaker 1: personally struggling with something psychologically or whatever. Yeah, and we
Speaker 1: all have those little struggles, and we all have those
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome that must come into it sometimes too, does
Speaker 1: it absolutely?
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.
Speaker 3: And most of it's interesting because most of the athletes
Speaker 3: who I get to work with, the lucky enough are
Speaker 3: pretty have got to a high level and so they've
Speaker 3: always been probably the big fish or yeah, the fish
Speaker 3: in the small pond or whatever, and so when they
Speaker 3: get up to that really elite level, sometimes things don't
Speaker 3: work quite as well as they used to. So it's
Speaker 3: not necessarily that there's a deficit, but they have to
Speaker 3: find new ways to either attacker an opposition or a
Speaker 3: competition or things like that.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, Kylie, can you identify what it is about
Speaker 1: an athlete that makes them successful?
Speaker 3: It's normally not one thing. I think one of the
Speaker 3: biggest things is they're really high level of self awareness
Speaker 3: of both their strengths and potentially the things that don't
Speaker 3: help them that much. So their understanding of you know,
Speaker 3: I like to use a phrase the light self and
Speaker 3: the shadow self, you know, so they understand that their
Speaker 3: shadow self and what holds them back, and they're really
Speaker 3: willing and courageous to kind of dive into going how
Speaker 3: can I shift that? You know, So that it's interesting
Speaker 3: because you know, people will just go, oh, they're superhuman
Speaker 3: and things like that, but they're actually the really human
Speaker 3: people who are choosing to do something that's scrutinized, not
Speaker 3: saying it's difficult, but it's scrutinized, and so they have
Speaker 3: to really know themselves and how that's going to impact them,
Speaker 3: and they're willing to.
Speaker 1: Look at that.
Speaker 3: So I would say that's the biggest differentiator between potentially
Speaker 3: the athletes who you know, really push on is they're
Speaker 3: not living in a fake world of trying to pump
Speaker 3: their own ties up.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's very authentic and they're able to say, yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: not so good in those moments my mind goes there,
Speaker 3: my heart doesn't really take me to the right place
Speaker 3: or whatever it is, and they're willing to use the
Speaker 3: resources to help them sort of address that.
Speaker 1: See, I think that's something you know, because one of
Speaker 1: the reasons we wanted to talk to you today was
Speaker 1: we are fascinated by the world of the athlete and
Speaker 1: how you get those extra increments of success. But also
Speaker 1: we all could do with a little bit of you know,
Speaker 1: understanding our lighter what did you call it? The lifelight
Speaker 1: itself and shadows? Yeah, yeah, I mean how often do
Speaker 1: we We often sort of grit our way through things
Speaker 1: and we just wonder if there might be a bit
Speaker 1: doing it sometimes.
Speaker 3: And you know it's I think they're in the fortunate
Speaker 3: position that, you know, their job creates space for them
Speaker 3: to explore that, you know, so it's a really encouraged
Speaker 3: and coaches now phenomenal it's at not setting up environments
Speaker 3: where you're failing or you're not doing as well as
Speaker 3: we want you to go and see that person, you know,
Speaker 3: they're actually saying, well, just like, how can you know,
Speaker 3: how can you get more out of yourself or hold
Speaker 3: yourself in a different way if that's what you choose
Speaker 3: to do. And so you've got the environments now much
Speaker 3: more supportive of kind of holding that shadowself a little
Speaker 3: bit more tolerant rather than I know, you just know
Speaker 3: you can't cope go, you know.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that you know, to be an elite athlete,
Speaker 1: you've got to have a bit of natural ability, and
Speaker 1: you've obviously got to be able to work really hard
Speaker 1: and everything. But kind of what I hear you saying
Speaker 1: is that we could actually all reach our potential if
Speaker 1: we want.
Speaker 3: To do yeah, whatever and whatever that is you choose
Speaker 3: to do, right, And I think, you know, when I
Speaker 3: think about high performance athletes, it's they're just pursuing something
Speaker 3: they're passionate about and skilled at, you know, so they've
Speaker 3: been told from a young age probably that this is
Speaker 3: something that they're good at, so it becomes their passion maybe,
Speaker 3: but it's anything anyone who's in pursuit of something important
Speaker 3: to them. The ability to understand how you function in
Speaker 3: both strength and maybe some things that hold you back,
Speaker 3: and how you can work with that that will help
Speaker 3: you achieve, you know, closer to whatever that potential is,
Speaker 3: you know, whatever that you choose to be doing, whether
Speaker 3: it's parenting relationships, pursuing a career goal, a physical goal,
Speaker 3: whatever it is.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I really.
Speaker 1: Like that because I'm in my early fifties, but I
Speaker 1: still believe that my best days are ahead. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm very happy with the years that have gone by, really,
Speaker 1: but I just I don't know where I've been blissfully
Speaker 1: naive or whether that really truly maybe I've beaked. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, but I do like that. I do like
Speaker 1: that thought. No, my best days of silly head, who
Speaker 1: knows what I might potentially achieve. Yeah, No, I'm not big.
Speaker 1: I'm not a big one on staying static. But once,
Speaker 1: something you just said was about the things that hold
Speaker 1: us back, and I think I think I think about
Speaker 1: the things that hold me back, probably too much, and
Speaker 1: then I sort of almost accept that as a as
Speaker 1: a block. Yeah, so anyway, that's probably too personal. But
Speaker 1: you know, it's like that's all I can think about
Speaker 1: now is Oh, I'm almost thinking about why I can't
Speaker 1: do something instead of why I can. So maybe there
Speaker 1: I need to start.
Speaker 3: Some of the work I do with athletes is really
Speaker 3: sitting in that space and going where do these stories
Speaker 3: and thoughts come from? And why do I show up
Speaker 3: in these situations and not others? And how could we
Speaker 3: perhaps find different ways to speak to ourselves, particularly when
Speaker 3: we're in moments under the most scrutiny in the most pressure,
Speaker 3: and so that's a lot of a lot of the
Speaker 3: work we do is maybe a little bit of understanding
Speaker 3: why so that that inside allows you to perhaps be
Speaker 3: a little bit more compassionate to yourself when those things
Speaker 3: show up, and understanding of yourself and then develop some
Speaker 3: different ways to perhaps think that tapping into maybe some
Speaker 3: of the strengths you do have, you know, and.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely a technique that you can take into
Speaker 1: your day to day life, something that we can use
Speaker 1: in our day to day lives. Say, you know, you're
Speaker 1: just kind of not really satisfied with how things are
Speaker 1: going at work. Maybe as you said, you're not really
Speaker 1: you know, you're finding parenting just a bit hard and
Speaker 1: you're hitting a wall there. It's just it's just about
Speaker 1: taking a moment and stepping back and being honest with
Speaker 1: yourself about And I don't think we want to do
Speaker 1: this all the time. We don't want to because we
Speaker 1: don't want to focus on potentially negative or something that
Speaker 1: we're deficient at. But taking a look and going at you,
Speaker 1: I'm not okay, I'm not coping with this so well,
Speaker 1: and I'm not dealing with this so well or I'm
Speaker 1: lacking patients or I'm doing it. You know, so you
Speaker 1: have just have that really honest conversation with yourself to
Speaker 1: work out the pros and con so to speak, and
Speaker 1: then how do you then? What do you do? Well?
Speaker 3: It's I think it's what's the block that keeps showing up?
Speaker 3: And why does that exist? I think that's really important,
Speaker 3: and sometimes we don't potentially have the tools to answer
Speaker 3: those questions introspectively in our own minds. And that's why
Speaker 3: talk having that's why therapy is really really powerful. You
Speaker 3: know that some to ask you the different questions that
Speaker 3: help you put the puzzle together and create that understanding.
Speaker 3: And then what might be some different ways we could
Speaker 3: speak to ourselves think in this moment, because it's a
Speaker 3: little bit like, you know, perfectionism. You know, most of
Speaker 3: the athletes I work with a highly perfectionistic and so
Speaker 3: anything that isn't perfect is a complete failure.
Speaker 2: So it's that real.
Speaker 3: Black and white kind of binary thinking, whereas sometimes you
Speaker 3: might say, not necessarily like I failed, but what was
Speaker 3: what was the good bits? And well they're not so
Speaker 3: good bits, So you create a little bit more gray
Speaker 3: from the black and white and they have to practice
Speaker 3: that because most people have thinking styles that are quite ingrained,
Speaker 3: you know, and so they're quite hard to change. So
Speaker 3: it's like anything, if you want to change any habit, smoking,
Speaker 3: more exercise, whatever, it's like, you know, the more your
Speaker 3: times you do it, the more strong, stronger that habit becomes.
Speaker 3: So you've really got to work at kind of driving
Speaker 3: your thinking into different ways.
Speaker 1: You're just talking about habits and the more you do
Speaker 1: it and things, and for a lot of athletes, they
Speaker 1: become very good at what they do because they do
Speaker 1: the basics over and over again. We sort of translate
Speaker 1: that into real life. It doesn't sound terribly motivating, well
Speaker 1: not when you've when you might have multiple goals in
Speaker 1: front of you. So most of us are a lot
Speaker 1: of us are parenting, in a relationship, working, and hopefully
Speaker 1: have some personal fitness or well being goal. So it
Speaker 1: is quite you know, heading all of those notes, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not taking anything away, but how good to be
Speaker 1: a pressional with me? And that's it. You get up.
Speaker 1: You're a professional athlete on the daily. Although the scrutiny
Speaker 1: would be pretty pretty tough, and also the funding and
Speaker 1: the uncertainty, none of us survive all that well and
Speaker 1: that uncertain area or either do we be curious to
Speaker 1: know a little bit more about how how they manage
Speaker 1: that uncertainly But that's probably a different conversation. How do
Speaker 1: you go about it?
Speaker 3: I mean most the ethics I work with are in relationships.
Speaker 2: And in parents.
Speaker 3: True, yeah, they've got multiple demands on them.
Speaker 2: I think they get very skilled.
Speaker 3: I'm going to call it compartmentalizing, so being able to
Speaker 3: go right, what's this demand? What does this require of me?
Speaker 3: You know, whether whether they drive into the building or
Speaker 3: turn up to the track or whatever it is, and say,
Speaker 3: what's required of me now? And how do I bring
Speaker 3: my best self to this? And then when they become
Speaker 3: you know, go home and be the parent that they
Speaker 3: do the same thing. So they're very good at sort
Speaker 3: of distinguishing the different spaces that are and really been
Speaker 3: quite purposeful about what they want to bring to those spaces.
Speaker 3: And I guess it's recognizing changeable priorities very quickly, you know,
Speaker 3: so they might even go from and it is quite quick.
Speaker 3: But you know, the athletes, the teams I'm working at
Speaker 3: the moment, you know, they'll play and within ten minutes
Speaker 3: they'll be reviewing, So they go into a learning space
Speaker 3: like that, you know, from being really hyped up and
Speaker 3: a drilline pumping to being you know, deconstructing what happened
Speaker 3: has happened in learning. So you know, they're very good
Speaker 3: at kind of changing I guess the requirements and what
Speaker 3: spaces they need to be in and bouncing between those
Speaker 3: spaces as quickly as possible. So that's this, you know,
Speaker 3: the training environment is set up for them to really
Speaker 3: practice that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's true when I think about it.
Speaker 1: I've known a couple of professional athletes in my life
Speaker 1: in different social settings, one where I was much younger
Speaker 1: and one more recently. They are definitely quite focused characters
Speaker 1: on Well, actually that's probably not true. The one that
Speaker 1: I knew when we were younger, you couldn't you were
Speaker 1: you would be with him, but his mine wasn't right
Speaker 1: with us, do you know what I mean? Like he
Speaker 1: found that social versus the responsibilities of what he was doing.
Speaker 1: I think it was the captain of the black Caps
Speaker 1: at the time or something that you know, you could
Speaker 1: feel it when it was with them all the time.
Speaker 3: I set up deliberately to train that in them. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because that's a performance characteristic, you know, so it's not
Speaker 3: a surprise that they're good at it. Lots of them
Speaker 3: actually struggle when they retire and go into workplace settings
Speaker 3: that people just seem to get distracted so easily. You
Speaker 3: know that they're quite that's something they that surprises them.
Speaker 2: You know that they.
Speaker 3: People kind of really like have I can't prioritize or
Speaker 3: compartmentalize very well, and they're actually amazing in most settings
Speaker 3: I go into.
Speaker 1: I bet they are. Yeah, I always felt a bit
Speaker 1: of a hot message all those kind of people. You're
Speaker 1: listening to the little things, and I guess On the
Speaker 1: podcast today is mental skills and performance coach doctor Curlie
Speaker 1: Wilson talking to us about how we can take tools
Speaker 1: elite athletes use and apply them to our everyday lives.
Speaker 1: We'll be back shortly after this break. Welcome back, Culie.
Speaker 1: We were just talking about focus there and refocusing and look,
Speaker 1: I am so easily distracted. And I work from home
Speaker 1: a lot, right, so I can have three things on
Speaker 1: the gual once. I can be doing some work while
Speaker 1: I'm also doing you know, something around the house and
Speaker 1: be thinking about something else entirely as well. But makes
Speaker 1: me sound very scattered ourselves to do that as well.
Speaker 1: So yes, yeah, yeah, possibly, how do we during our
Speaker 1: day stay focused or bring the attention back to what
Speaker 1: it is that we should be focusing on.
Speaker 3: I think you name something there is the art and
Speaker 3: the skill of multitasking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and aft I don't want to do, to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, Yeah, and that's that's the question.
Speaker 3: So I always use phrases like is that helpful or unhelpful?
Speaker 3: Versus is it a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 3: Because sometimes you will need to multitask, so you need
Speaker 3: to be able to you know, hopefully have the capacity
Speaker 3: the bandwidth to be able to do that. But when
Speaker 3: you do want to hone in, you know, lots of
Speaker 3: the athletes will just say, like the question I used
Speaker 3: before is like, what what does this require of me?
Speaker 3: So you go into it going I'm not just going
Speaker 3: to launch into it. I'm going to do one moment.
Speaker 3: I've kind of prep for it to go what's this requiring,
Speaker 3: what's the priority, what's the skills I need? What's the
Speaker 3: way I want to approach it? So quite often their
Speaker 3: prep enables them to make really good decisions about where
Speaker 3: to put their attention, and they're also able to through
Speaker 3: skills like just bringing their attention maybe to their breath,
Speaker 3: doing a little bit of mindfulness things like that. Like
Speaker 3: lots of the athletes I work with integrate mindfulness into
Speaker 3: their preparation just to reduce the chaos, reduce the noise,
Speaker 3: reduce the frequency in their mind down to something really
Speaker 3: simple so that they can then go into that thing
Speaker 3: with a huge amount of intense focus on that soul task.
Speaker 3: And so they practice their ability of going multitasking, you know,
Speaker 3: lots lots of chaos down to something really really simple,
Speaker 3: whether it's a breath. Some of the sailors I used
Speaker 3: to work, where you just used to listen to the
Speaker 3: wind against the sail, whereas that's happening all the time,
Speaker 3: but they're not paying attention to it necessarily. So lots
Speaker 3: of skills like that that help them prepare to be focused.
Speaker 3: So I think that's quite a big difference is they
Speaker 3: know what's required of them and they prep themselves to
Speaker 3: meet the demands of that task. They don't just go,
Speaker 3: you know, like fall into it, and they have these
Speaker 3: little routines everywhere they go.
Speaker 1: I like that I might set myself up a little
Speaker 1: routine when I sit down to write at home, or
Speaker 1: I sit down to prep and things like that. You
Speaker 1: were talking before about the way we talk to ourselves,
Speaker 1: and I like the way. You know, my thought would
Speaker 1: have been, oh, I shouldn't be doing this, I'm distracting,
Speaker 1: but I like the way you I should think it
Speaker 1: more along the lines of Francisca. This isn't helpful to
Speaker 1: just stop, you know, Is that what you're talk about
Speaker 1: when it comes to the way you talk.
Speaker 3: To Yeah, not that I want this to turn to
Speaker 3: a therapy session, but when you speak to yourself, what
Speaker 3: I hear is judgment I should So there's obviously an
Speaker 3: expectation of what it should look like and you're not
Speaker 3: meeting it. And judgmental thought keeps us in a hypercritical space,
Speaker 3: whereas when we're wanting to perform, it's like we need to,
Speaker 3: I guess, loosen the shackles of judgment. And so, you know,
Speaker 3: how do I want to be rather than how do
Speaker 3: I think people expect me to be?
Speaker 1: You know what else? What about stressful moments? What about
Speaker 1: when you might be doing a presentation, work, you might
Speaker 1: have a challenge on your hands. Is a lot going
Speaker 1: on what's a good way for us to handle sort
Speaker 1: of those stressful moments in our lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there's two bits to that. I think one
Speaker 3: is understanding why you're creating the stress because often it's
Speaker 3: like we talk about pressure as facts plus stories.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So the fact is the Warriors are playing a knockout game,
Speaker 3: you know, do a die kind of a game, So
Speaker 3: that's a fact. Factors we're playing penrith of one more
Speaker 3: times than us, that's a fact. The stories become you know,
Speaker 3: are we good enough to beat them? What are people
Speaker 3: going to think?
Speaker 2: So it's really.
Speaker 3: Recognizing, like, what are the stories that you're bringing into
Speaker 3: that moment that makes it stressful. So preparing for a presentation,
Speaker 3: for example, is you know, the factors I've got fifteen
Speaker 3: minutes to talk about the thing I know the most about.
Speaker 3: It's a pretty good fact, you know, like and so
Speaker 3: the stories that could flaff that is what a great
Speaker 3: opportunity to kind of go into the space where I
Speaker 3: feel most passionate and confident versus are people going to
Speaker 3: think I'm good? Or you know, like, so, how can
Speaker 3: you make the stories work for you? There's always gonna
Speaker 3: be stories, but how can you perhaps make them work
Speaker 3: for you a little bit versus against you. And it's
Speaker 3: really being able to pick the stories that are going
Speaker 3: to work against you and being able to challenge them,
Speaker 3: you know, because you're creating something anyway, you might as
Speaker 3: well make it something helpful.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it comes back to dealing with that judgment. Yes,
Speaker 1: And as much as we all pretend that you know,
Speaker 1: other people's opinions of us none of our business, they
Speaker 1: do creep in. Yeah, And so it's just how you
Speaker 1: check that at the gate, you know, like make sure
Speaker 1: you're you're acting as the bouncer and you only want
Speaker 1: the cool kids in the club, you know, like the
Speaker 1: the good stories, the helpful stories. But I think the
Speaker 1: best example of this is you know, the All Blacks
Speaker 1: And I've only read this, I'm not first hand knowledge,
Speaker 1: but you know they talked about pressures of privilege, and
Speaker 1: so they changed the story is something they wanted to
Speaker 1: walk towards, versus that was off the back of them
Speaker 1: perhaps underperforming at World Cups and you know, label chokers
Speaker 1: and all that. So they created a different story. Pressures
Speaker 1: of privilege.
Speaker 3: It's something we want, we want to be in that moment,
Speaker 3: it means we've done really, really well. It means we've
Speaker 3: got all the skills to meet the challenge. So they
Speaker 3: just created a whole different story around this pressure moment,
Speaker 3: and you know, they all talk about that has been
Speaker 3: quite an influential thing on the way they start to
Speaker 3: think about it. That they then were excited to play
Speaker 3: the final versus you know, focusing on what will the
Speaker 3: country do and how people treat us and.
Speaker 1: All of that. Yeah, that I can't That upsets me.
Speaker 1: I get worried for people when we put that kind
Speaker 1: of external pressure. There's actually got nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the performance in the outcome of the game, which is
Speaker 1: it's crazy. Our athletes better at handling failure. Do you
Speaker 1: think from the average person they get good at that?
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say they enjoy it, you know, like because
Speaker 3: that's that's like the exam they take at the end
Speaker 3: of studying for four years or whatever it is. It's
Speaker 3: if they really want to do well, and so failure
Speaker 3: is really really difficult.
Speaker 1: But do they learn from it?
Speaker 2: I suppose.
Speaker 3: I think the first thing is that like no one,
Speaker 3: no athlete I've known, has ever won an Olympic title
Speaker 3: or a World championship or a you know, without failing,
Speaker 3: like it's part of the deal, you know.
Speaker 2: And so I think.
Speaker 3: Their ability to go, what's this going to teach me?
Speaker 3: What can I take from it? What has it shown
Speaker 3: me that I need to go and address or whatever
Speaker 3: it's like, or where's a skill gap or whatever it is.
Speaker 3: And I think their superpower is getting over the disappointment
Speaker 3: and the feeling of losing or failing and really going
Speaker 3: into like, what can I learn from this house It's
Speaker 3: going to make me better? You know. So sometimes it
Speaker 3: takes them a fair while, but often it will be
Speaker 3: the stimulus that helps them kick on to a new
Speaker 3: level so they realize it's really like, you can't really
Speaker 3: go through a sporting career without experiencing it, so, you know,
Speaker 3: getting so caught up with it and you know, is
Speaker 3: not workable.
Speaker 1: Oh it's funny, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Not all about you?
Speaker 1: It's not your mate. It might feel like it's your
Speaker 1: identity and everything about you, but it's not necessarily.
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's a lot of work that we do
Speaker 3: with the athletes is really ensuring that their whole sense
Speaker 3: of who they are and they're worth as a person
Speaker 3: isn't tied up with the scoreboard, you know that they're
Speaker 3: able to look at. Yeah, we might not have won,
Speaker 3: but that part of our game really grew or I
Speaker 3: learned lots about myself in that situation. I can use
Speaker 3: that next time.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, and look, there's so much going
Speaker 1: on at the moment out there in the job market
Speaker 1: and things, and people are losing jobs and that can
Speaker 1: be really you know, it is a very difficult thing
Speaker 1: to go through. But once again, it's reminding yourself that
Speaker 1: what you do isn't necessarily who you are. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you can play a large part of it.
Speaker 1: But and it's really difficult when people rely on you,
Speaker 1: you know, sustainable living and you know, like shelter and
Speaker 1: food and all that. So that puts a huge amount
Speaker 1: of real pressure on But again, it's if you're in
Speaker 1: a situation where that stress is meaning it's limiting either
Speaker 1: how you attack that next opportunity to you know, get
Speaker 1: a job or whatever, then you need to kind of
Speaker 1: figure out how to address that. You know, is it
Speaker 1: holding you back from doing the things that you want
Speaker 1: to do, whether it's applying for jobs or whatever. I
Speaker 1: mentioned failure before, because I want to know how you
Speaker 1: come back from a setback.
Speaker 3: Well, again, I think setbacks, like the word even the
Speaker 3: word failure, is like they're all part of the journey.
Speaker 3: So it's hopefully it's not come back from, it's grow from.
Speaker 3: You know, like a lot of the athletes, like the
Speaker 3: blackfin sevens, you know, they lost the Rio Olympic final,
Speaker 3: and I think they might not have won the next
Speaker 3: one if they hadn't have done that, so because they
Speaker 3: got so much sharper and more focused on what they
Speaker 3: needed to do.
Speaker 2: Because of that.
Speaker 3: So while you feel at that time it's really really
Speaker 3: disappointing that, I think it's normally the catalyst. If you've
Speaker 3: got a growth mindset and an environment that promotes that,
Speaker 3: then you know it's normally the catalyst for that real
Speaker 3: shartening of your prioritization, your areas of focus, and so
Speaker 3: they get very deliberate about what they do because of
Speaker 3: those experiences.
Speaker 1: I just watched a schoolboy's final rugby game and at
Speaker 1: the end, you know, the winning team were just over
Speaker 1: the moon, right and they had not one for a
Speaker 1: long time. In that setting. The team that I was
Speaker 1: supporting had won it. They were going for a three peet.
Speaker 1: They were on the ground crying absolutely, and look have
Speaker 1: your moment. That's actually fine. But in my head I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, pressures off for next year. They don't
Speaker 1: have to do or four feet you know. I was
Speaker 1: saying to my son, well that you go next year
Speaker 1: is a whole new blank canvas for you. Guys. They
Speaker 1: were going to see it like that in the moment,
Speaker 1: but I think they're already sort of focused on Oh yeah, growth,
Speaker 1: you know, for next time, we'll know we don't perhaps
Speaker 1: think we have it in the bag before we play
Speaker 1: the game. Yea, what is a growth mindset? Well, how
Speaker 1: do you get one?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's basically approaching all your experiences as a
Speaker 3: chance to get better, whether that's winning. And I think
Speaker 3: that's a That's why I like to frame it like
Speaker 3: that because often we don't learn as hard from winning.
Speaker 3: You know, we go, oh, that felt good or it
Speaker 3: was great, and then we kind of move on to
Speaker 3: the next thing, whereas we di sect failure. One of
Speaker 3: my philosophies is we've got to dissect winning, and not
Speaker 3: just winning, but really good performance, even regardless of outcome.
Speaker 3: So if someone's nailed something in their performance, go, let's
Speaker 3: dissect it so that we start building our blueprint of
Speaker 3: what works. Because I think as high performance athletes we
Speaker 3: tend to be biased. I say we as if I'm
Speaker 3: in high performance an there, but they tend to be
Speaker 3: biased towards negative because that's going to be where they
Speaker 3: think they'll get the most growth from. But often it's
Speaker 3: you know, if you keep honing what you're really good at,
Speaker 3: and you keep cultivating your ability to put that on
Speaker 3: the table more often, then your performance tends to grow
Speaker 3: and you'll naturally work on this stuff. But I think
Speaker 3: if we become too biased on our deficits and our weaknesses, we.
Speaker 2: Really impacts our confidence.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting because my daughter is at a school
Speaker 1: where they believe in individualized education and they promote and
Speaker 1: focus on what you're really good at, and yeah, if
Speaker 1: you're not so good at the English and there's, they'll
Speaker 1: work on that, but hey, let's focus on what you're
Speaker 1: really good at. And interestingly, the things that you're not
Speaker 1: so good at just slowly they actually do just slowly.
Speaker 2: Over timely because you know, we bring it.
Speaker 3: Why someone you know really improved or mastered a part
Speaker 3: of their performance, it sets up their really strong framework
Speaker 3: for how to approach things they're not so good at,
Speaker 3: and so they start to then apply that same same
Speaker 3: philosophies or frameworks to improve their deficits. And they do
Speaker 3: that from a confidence set rather than I can't be
Speaker 3: useless at this.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: It's just it's a really subtle shift, but it's I've
Speaker 3: seen it make quite a big difference in just how
Speaker 3: people keep showing up to their challenging the challenging parts
Speaker 3: of their job because they're really clear on why they're
Speaker 3: good at what they're good at.
Speaker 1: Huh. I like that, Yeah, I do too. I Mean
Speaker 1: I've heard growth mindset thrown around for many years. I
Speaker 1: have never heard it explained as well. It was perfect
Speaker 1: approach as a chance to, you know, get better at
Speaker 1: the things.
Speaker 3: That are assurances provide you an opportunity to improve and
Speaker 3: get better, you know, whether that's winning, losing, or mastering
Speaker 3: something or not quite heading the mark that it's just
Speaker 3: having that ability to go, what's this.
Speaker 2: Going to teach me?
Speaker 1: You know if we take if we take right that chance.
Speaker 3: And that's why they call it a mindset, because it's
Speaker 3: a real philosophy, you know. And so if you and
Speaker 3: some of the best coaches I work with just keep
Speaker 3: that philosophy bubbling away. You know, they kind of like,
Speaker 3: because it's really easy when you get pressure from funders
Speaker 3: or sponsors or whatever, just to start going to that,
Speaker 3: like we need to just win this game, you know,
Speaker 3: so we can't be useless at these things anymore. You know,
Speaker 3: it's really easy to fold to that.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the brutal part for sport, isn't it. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's really brutal when it comes to funding. And
Speaker 1: even when you see them sitting with the Olympians, you know,
Speaker 1: how much money how many of these types of athletes
Speaker 1: can we even take, even though we might have plenty
Speaker 1: excellent ones.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some who make the qualification standard, but still
Speaker 3: you know, can't go And that's really tough. And I
Speaker 3: think the funding model has changed for the better that
Speaker 3: there's a lot more security. You know, lots of them are
Speaker 3: on at least two years, most of some of them
Speaker 3: on four, and that gives them a sense of, you know,
Speaker 3: just space to try some things, because I think when
Speaker 3: if you're on a year by year funding, your willingness
Speaker 3: to go, okay, we're going to not focus on outcomes
Speaker 3: for these sets things are going to try some different
Speaker 3: strategies and we may get outcomes, but it's not our focus.
Speaker 3: But long term that's going to help us. So I
Speaker 3: think it's made athletes potentially have the space a bit
Speaker 3: bit more courageous.
Speaker 1: And look, I'm and research and we're also on contractor
Speaker 1: contract basis is the funding and you have to have
Speaker 1: a decent track record to get to the funding again,
Speaker 1: and it's quite cruel. I'm in a business that lives
Speaker 1: and dies. Well, that's right, tractor as well.
Speaker 3: But I think you've got to practice, you know, I
Speaker 3: try and practice what I preach to go you people
Speaker 3: will employ me or not, but I can't too far
Speaker 3: far away from my philosophies, you know, like otherwise you're
Speaker 3: kind of doing work and internal tension. There's always tension
Speaker 3: in the environment, but you've got to kind of have
Speaker 3: your set of values that you kind of try and keep,
Speaker 3: you know, committed to and then make people. People can
Speaker 3: make decisions, you know, about whether you fit them or don't.
Speaker 1: I like that too. That's great. And Lou mentioned self
Speaker 1: doubt and imposter syndrome earlier as well, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: that when it comes to you know, you're talking before
Speaker 1: about acknowledging what you're actually good at and why you're here,
Speaker 1: and that must come into play if you if you're
Speaker 1: struggling a little bit, just sort of wondering what on
Speaker 1: earth you're doing in a particular job or in a
Speaker 1: situation you're in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's she's a pretty prolific social media person. But
Speaker 3: Alona Ma, she's Oh, I love playing at the rugbyl
Speaker 3: Cup and she was asked the question said, oh, you know,
Speaker 3: do you suffer from imposter syndromes? You wouldn't know, you know,
Speaker 3: not at all, because I know what I'm good at.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It was just like a really refreshing kind of just
Speaker 3: a bold statement to go no, because I know what
Speaker 3: I'm worth, like, I know what I'm good at. And
Speaker 3: whilst that's quite aspirational, I think it's a good kind
Speaker 3: of reminder for us to not get too forgetful or
Speaker 3: distant from those things and actually be quite deliberate.
Speaker 2: Sometimes.
Speaker 3: You know, people are now journaling and what am I
Speaker 3: grateful for? But often it's like what am I proud
Speaker 3: of about myself and what I'm doing? You know, And
Speaker 3: with a lot of the athletes I work with, it's
Speaker 3: that deliberate practice of sitting down and going I've got
Speaker 3: these strengths. Yeah, that's right, and those strengths can help
Speaker 3: me you tackle a challenge I might have, so not
Speaker 3: kind of just going with the flow, but actually pause
Speaker 3: moments to check in on those things.
Speaker 1: And she does that also with such a flair, sense
Speaker 1: of humour and all those other things, so that it
Speaker 1: doesn't even come off as cocky or as fabulous. And
Speaker 1: she's a great role model. Before we wrap up, Kaylie,
Speaker 1: can we ask you about visualization. Do you ever use it?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I'm actually a really skilled visualizer myself, and to
Speaker 3: the point where I'm quite an anxious driver when my
Speaker 3: kids are in the car and I visualize like accidents,
Speaker 3: you know, so they're not good. It's good visualization, but
Speaker 3: very vivid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I use it a lot.
Speaker 3: The ethics I work with use it a lot for
Speaker 3: a variety of reasons. One is, you know, we talk
Speaker 3: about being really clear on your strengths. Seeing yourself exhibit
Speaker 3: those strengths ahead of time is a really powerful source
Speaker 3: of clarity and confidence, you know. So lots of the
Speaker 3: players that I work with for the weekend coming up,
Speaker 3: they'll be visualizing themselves executing the plays, you know, seeing
Speaker 3: themselves really powerfully stepping into their role, you know, and
Speaker 3: so they'll draw a lot of clarity and confidence from
Speaker 3: that visualization. But I use it for a lot of
Speaker 3: a variety of other sort of sources. That's quite a
Speaker 3: traditional way to use it. I use it for actually coping.
Speaker 3: So the ethics I work with imagine something not going
Speaker 3: so well and how they're going to respond to that.
Speaker 3: So they visualize themselves responding and how they'll feel when
Speaker 3: something doesn't go quite right, and then how they want
Speaker 3: to turn that round or connect with something one of
Speaker 3: their strengths and then step forward into the next challenge.
Speaker 3: So it's not just all visualizing perfect it's visualizing responding
Speaker 3: to imperfection and responding challenge, responding to setbacks.
Speaker 1: But you're not getting to the point where they know
Speaker 1: the answer to everything if it goes wrong, because you
Speaker 1: need to you don't know necessarily what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: You need to be flexible and they able to adapt
Speaker 1: to the moment too, don't you.
Speaker 3: If they visualize twenty scenarios, they will tend to have
Speaker 3: the same cluster of things that will help them react.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, cool, So from a practical point of view,
Speaker 1: what is that like a are you closing your eyes
Speaker 1: and visualizing it or you're writing it down like what's
Speaker 1: the most powerful?
Speaker 3: So again, depending on the person, so you try and
Speaker 3: match it. So most of them will close their eyes
Speaker 3: and visualize that. Some of them need like a prompt,
Speaker 3: so they might use video, watch a bit of video,
Speaker 3: and then they'll close their eyes and imagine something. Very
Speaker 3: dedicated athletes I work with actually record their voices through
Speaker 3: like an imagery script, so it's their own voice, and
Speaker 3: then they'll listen to and go, Okay, now you're approaching
Speaker 3: the breakdown and you're getting low in your like.
Speaker 1: They've created their own meditation in a sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so, and some of them will go to
Speaker 3: the degree where rugby players, for example, will have their
Speaker 3: headgear on that they're wearing, they'll have their mouth guarden
Speaker 3: while they're listening to their you know, their own kind
Speaker 3: of guided visualization script.
Speaker 2: And they're up with the ball in hand.
Speaker 3: Because that all of that stimulates really strong kinesthetic feedback,
Speaker 3: which makes the brain basically fire as if it was
Speaker 3: doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 2: So it's not.
Speaker 1: Like just like Usain Bolt going I'm going to be
Speaker 1: in the front. I'm going to get over that line
Speaker 1: first with my arms behind me, and everyone else is
Speaker 1: going to be You've got to do the whole move.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I can't speak for him, but I can imagine
Speaker 3: like he would visualize himself just in depth, the sensations
Speaker 3: of driving up when the gun goes, yeah, and that
Speaker 3: reaction time, you know, and feeling that I'm never worked
Speaker 3: in sprinting, but it's like feeling that power threw his
Speaker 3: legs down to the ground, you know, and all of
Speaker 3: those things. It would be very you'd want to create
Speaker 3: as much century experience with it so that the brain
Speaker 3: really like replicates what's going on.
Speaker 1: It's going to say, you're just creating that repetition, must
Speaker 1: be creating kind of pathways in the brain so that
Speaker 1: reaction and things just so familiar.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then the other really strong area that I prolifically
Speaker 3: use it in his recovery from injury.
Speaker 2: So in two.
Speaker 3: Ways, one athletes actually visualizing their whatever the area of
Speaker 3: their body is that is injured recovering. So that's an
Speaker 3: interesting it's quite a bit of research on that. And
Speaker 3: then the other one is because they can't get the
Speaker 3: mental physical reps, and they basically just do mental reps,
Speaker 3: you know, so they'll imagine themselves training. So and the Warriors,
Speaker 3: for example, a lot of the players who are injured
Speaker 3: will be behind kind of the training session as they're playing,
Speaker 3: as they're going through their processes, and they'll be kind
Speaker 3: of standing there but visualizing them in those positions, you know.
Speaker 3: So they're not able to physically run or whatever or catchable,
Speaker 3: but they're getting through the mental reps so when they
Speaker 3: come back, their decision making is up to general speed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really cool. I love that. If ever, because
Speaker 1: a lot of players would get injured, I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: at schoolboy rugby level, and yeah, some of them I
Speaker 1: don't want to go to a game, can't play, you know.
Speaker 1: Actually they should go to every single training just show
Speaker 1: up and watch and be involved as much as they can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends on the length of injury.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes, like what ACLS, for example, you'd probably
Speaker 3: give them a bit of time because it's a long injury,
Speaker 3: you know, so being training when too early would be hard.
Speaker 3: But as they're starting to run again, definitely, like yeah,
Speaker 3: sort of from six months on with in an ac L, recovery.
Speaker 3: They would be doing as much as many reps as
Speaker 3: the active players, but they're only just doing mentally.
Speaker 1: So as you're as my knee repairs low, I'll come
Speaker 1: and watch you do trail marathons and I'll be right there.
Speaker 1: I'll be ready to go. If I get a colder,
Speaker 1: a small injury that I can recover from, I'll just
Speaker 1: I'll just stay at home and watch other people run
Speaker 1: mountain marathons and measure myself. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and with like you know, VR and things like that.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking that, Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's been used a little bit in visualization work, and.
Speaker 1: It must help even if everything doesn't go as you
Speaker 1: visualized it, because you know, you've got or do they
Speaker 1: visualize things like you say, if they visualize a lot
Speaker 1: of potential outcomes from one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, ebbs and flow it spending on
Speaker 3: what sports Michael phelps. He talks a lot about the
Speaker 3: use of or his use of visualization, and he used to,
Speaker 3: you know, for example, visualize his goal will coming off,
Speaker 3: you know, and having to swim blind and then actually
Speaker 3: finish the race, you know, like not having his eyes
Speaker 3: open basically, so he visualized those scenarios. You know what
Speaker 3: if you know, whatever, something happens if he gets you know,
Speaker 3: false start and then he asked the thing and how
Speaker 3: is he going to approach the next start? And imagine
Speaker 3: being just as courageous as that first one, not holding
Speaker 3: back or you know, things like that. So just all
Speaker 3: those different scenarios for the different athletes I work with
Speaker 3: you that they yeah, because you've basically got to manage
Speaker 3: your load, you know, physical load, and so their mind
Speaker 3: can supplement that for them if they choose to do so.
Speaker 1: I think I might have been misunderstanding manifesting and visualizing.
Speaker 1: You're just brilliantly.
Speaker 2: Bening.
Speaker 3: But it's that serves a purpose because it might be
Speaker 3: a better motivation, a bit of like you know, like aspiration,
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: But you get halfway through and go what was I thinking?
Speaker 3: Yes, so maybe visualizing when you're in the trend hard
Speaker 3: and how are you going to move through?
Speaker 2: That be a good addition for you.
Speaker 1: Have we covered off motivation? Oh well, we're not born?
Speaker 1: Are we born with it?
Speaker 3: Are we born with it? I think there's like there's
Speaker 3: definitely like a genetic environmental early y air thing. But I
Speaker 3: think if someone has the opportunity to find their passion,
Speaker 3: then motivation is not an issue, right, Yeah, good point.
Speaker 1: So maybe you should be questioning your questioning what you're
Speaker 1: doing if you've seen no motivation to do it, your choices.
Speaker 1: I love it. That's a good party. That was fascinating.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Right the ways, I think we've
Speaker 1: got to the bottom of visualization, and it's a little
Speaker 1: bit cooler than I thought it would be. It's definitely
Speaker 1: cooler than I thought. Well, actually it is cool, and
Speaker 1: it really does answer that question that I said at
Speaker 1: the art set that of my thing of going, oh,
Speaker 1: I visualized, I'm going to get to that thing and
Speaker 1: I'm going to get to the end of it. It's
Speaker 1: not a bit more complex than that, no, but you're
Speaker 1: going to get this clarity and this confidence. It's going
Speaker 1: to help with our coping. I love the fact that
Speaker 1: I'm going to try and use it for my injury,
Speaker 1: you know, and sort of help that to you know,
Speaker 1: use that for as a bit of motivation thing. So
Speaker 1: I thought that was great because I'm a bit like you.
Speaker 1: I've heard about people talk about it and just sit
Speaker 1: and visualize it, but I didn't quite understand what you
Speaker 1: were going to do, Like, yeah, that's how it all
Speaker 1: sort of worked and unfolded and what the point of
Speaker 1: it was. And also there's not one way to do
Speaker 1: it either, there's several ways. So you might find me
Speaker 1: in my running shoes and my running gear, but not
Speaker 1: out in the hills just visualizing it. No, I'm an athlete.
Speaker 1: I just visualize it. Yeah, I know the trail running
Speaker 1: is going great. Visual I'm visualizing it, you know, weakly.
Speaker 1: I'm just looking. I've written down so many I've written
Speaker 1: down so many little the facts and the stories. Love that, Yes,
Speaker 1: the stories that we el. Yes, I've got helpful and
Speaker 1: I'm helpful. That's that is a really good thing for me.
Speaker 1: That's a really nice way to ask yourself. The question
Speaker 1: with it, you know what you're doing is yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think we're done hid for But I didn't make
Speaker 1: a habit of it. No, And it's all about that
Speaker 1: language that you use and how you make the language.
Speaker 1: I suppose this a little bit more positive and helpful
Speaker 1: as opposed to just negative and compassionate. Yeah, and judge E,
Speaker 1: So that was I love that as well. I'm totally
Speaker 1: I have been really trying this year on dealing with
Speaker 1: my attention span, and I think we've spoken about this
Speaker 1: in an episode or two. I'm just really aware that
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do everything all at once and respond
Speaker 1: to this and respond to that, and do this and
Speaker 1: do that. And I am going to be a little
Speaker 1: bit more focused, shall we say, I'm going to dedicate
Speaker 1: myself that a little bit, like now this is the task.
Speaker 1: I like that whole idea of just stopping and prepping
Speaker 1: and just going, Okay, what is it.
Speaker 2: I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this and do this, set this
Speaker 1: up so I know, just just coming up with a little
Speaker 1: routine before launching into And I'm going to take that
Speaker 1: neive connotation of that word. I think I've always put
Speaker 1: a negative connotation on a word compartmentalization. And yes, she's
Speaker 1: not negative. It's a good idea, Like why didn't you
Speaker 1: like it? Because it just felt like you were ignoring.
Speaker 1: You'd go, I'm just going to put that over here
Speaker 1: and put this over here and put this over here,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to deal with you not deal
Speaker 1: with all. Yeah, it's not that you're not dealing with them,
Speaker 1: it's just at this moment, I'm going to focus on
Speaker 1: what I need to focus on. Yeah, Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: so cool. You know, I really really enjoyed that, really
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I hope everybody got something out of that
Speaker 1: from a from a just the fascination of the behind
Speaker 1: scenes for the athletes, but also for your own own life. No,
Speaker 1: have you found a little something that gave you joy? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I visited a friend. I've been in Christich for some
Speaker 1: family stuff and I visited a frame while I was there,
Speaker 1: and I walked in and they just had photographs all
Speaker 1: over the wolves, like just not a frames, just tacked
Speaker 1: onto the wall and they just were like, well, it's
Speaker 1: a really good time. In the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: we've gone on quite a few holidays, and we've just
Speaker 1: had lots of times in our life, so the kids are,
Speaker 1: you know, lots of events and things, and so my
Speaker 1: husband just started printing them off going and we house
Speaker 1: stationary printing them off, sticking them on the wall, and
Speaker 1: we can just it's not precious. You can just change
Speaker 1: them out anytime. So the next time you come to
Speaker 1: my house. I just sat there going, oh wow, it's
Speaker 1: I'm like and you know, that just beautiful and I
Speaker 1: it was just a lovely representation of of gratitude. I
Speaker 1: guess you know, of the every day of the every
Speaker 1: day nois of life actually really looking quite beautiful. Well,
Speaker 1: and you've just got all these lovely reminders of good times.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not what do you call it. It's
Speaker 1: not curated, it's just beautiful. So yeah, whipping mine out
Speaker 1: of the dusty frames and just sticking them on the wall.
Speaker 1: What about you? Well, after my disastrous week of trying
Speaker 1: to microdose joy last week, I've had a much better week.
Speaker 1: But I've gone back to what I know. I've gone
Speaker 1: back to what I know gives me joy. And for me,
Speaker 1: music always gives me joy. Music and left me out
Speaker 1: of a bad mood. It can motivate me. It just
Speaker 1: makes me feel good. So and I've talked before about
Speaker 1: making you know, playlists, your serotonin playlists and things. Well,
Speaker 1: as we drove in here today, I had a little
Speaker 1: concert in my car, windows up because I wouldn't I
Speaker 1: wouldn't inflict it on anybody else. I sang my little
Speaker 1: heart out. I just had a blast and I was
Speaker 1: right into it. And I know at the green lay
Speaker 1: lights there were a few people look at me going,
Speaker 1: holy moly, what is that? Woman doing, and it was
Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic. It was a reless kind of gorgeous release.
Speaker 1: I just felt good and it happens to be a
Speaker 1: stunning day to day when we're recording this. Only problem
Speaker 1: is it's really not the best thing to do when
Speaker 1: you talk for a living. I can feel that I've
Speaker 1: strayed my voice slightly, which is not idea when you
Speaker 1: come to record a podcast. But get in the car.
Speaker 1: Whenever I'm in the car, my kids in the car,
Speaker 1: they roll the radio, yeah, they roll, and I just
Speaker 1: put my own music. Give it a try. We're heading
Speaker 1: hot today, or if you're heading to work this morning,
Speaker 1: put some music on, windows on, well, windows down. If
Speaker 1: you just want to share the world and sing your
Speaker 1: little heart out. I can't sing either, I'm a terrible
Speaker 1: say and find the hype song. It was joyful, absolutely joyful. Right.
Speaker 1: If you would like more though, from doctor Kylie Wilson,
Speaker 1: head to Gainline dot co dot z and you can
Speaker 1: learn a little bit more there about what she does.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on our New Zealand Herald
Speaker 1: podcast series Little Things. We hope you share this podcast
Speaker 1: with the women in your life so we can all
Speaker 1: be a little bit more focused. You can follow this
Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 1: for more episodes from us on other topics, head to
Speaker 1: z herold dot co dot enz and we'll catch you
Speaker 1: next time on the Little Things