Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
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Speaker 2: Straight down the middle of Drum Dickey scud.
Speaker 1: Try get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Speaker 1: Direct with Elliott Smith and Leam Napier, powered by News
Speaker 1: Talks ed B.
Speaker 3: Welcome in to Rugby Directs, powered by Excess Solutions, elevating
Speaker 3: you and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith
Speaker 3: with me Liam Napier, back from Argentina and ready to
Speaker 3: go for this huge week of test rugby. We've had
Speaker 3: it marked on the calendar since the schedule was announced. Liam,
Speaker 3: and finally Canterbury get this shield charge.
Speaker 4: I should have known you to throw that down there.
Speaker 2: Four oh five Saturday. The shield is coming to its
Speaker 2: rightful up the stag.
Speaker 3: Dave Dobbin out Welcome home is blasting around the cannery
Speaker 3: once that shield comes to the mainland once again.
Speaker 5: Look, I think it's fair to say that everyone is
Speaker 5: an honorary stag for the weekend.
Speaker 3: Don't know about that, but we will get onto that
Speaker 3: bit later on in the podcast. Of course, our focus
Speaker 3: is the All Blacks and South Africa. Seven oh five Saturday,
Speaker 3: night and in all seriousness, this has been a game
Speaker 3: that has been in the calendar ever since the schedule
Speaker 3: was announced. Eden Park record on the line from the
Speaker 3: All Blacks and you know it's just days away now,
Speaker 3: how are your feelings in terms of this contest as
Speaker 3: we record this five days out?
Speaker 5: Well, you and I are positively fizzed. Elliott and I
Speaker 5: think this match will grip New Zealand like outside of
Speaker 5: a World Cup Final, like nothing probably since a game
Speaker 5: on New Zealand Shows since twenty eleven. It really is
Speaker 5: that big of an occasion. It's you know, fifty test
Speaker 5: undefeated at Eden Park thirty four years there the World
Speaker 5: Cup Final rematch one v two in the Worlds. The
Speaker 5: Springboks looking to go five in a row against the
Speaker 5: All Blacks, which is quite staggering in itself Artist Severe's
Speaker 5: hundredth The Springboks haven't won at Eden Park since nineteen
Speaker 5: thirty seven, so.
Speaker 4: You know, what more do you want?
Speaker 5: The All Blacks backs press to the wall following a loss.
Speaker 5: Spring Box not at their best, but everything about the
Speaker 5: year is targeted around this game. And while rugby fans
Speaker 5: would naturally tune into this game, casual fans non rugby
Speaker 5: supporters will be tuning in so massive occasion and how
Speaker 5: could you not be excited.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get the sense that this is a test
Speaker 3: week that we haven't had for in New Zealand, as
Speaker 3: you say, for yeah, maybe that third week of the
Speaker 3: line series back in twenty seventeen. But it does feel
Speaker 3: like a World Cup final. Two teams going ahead to
Speaker 3: hear it, it's one v two in the world. But
Speaker 3: from an All Blacks perspective, there are questions around this
Speaker 3: All Blacks team and their status as world number one,
Speaker 3: because it doesn't quite feel like, especially on the back
Speaker 3: of that performance in Buenos Aida, is that they deserve
Speaker 3: to be sitting there.
Speaker 2: So the All Blacks go in? Do they go in
Speaker 2: as favorites? Do you think liam for this game.
Speaker 5: Although actually quite hot favorites for the book is I
Speaker 5: think the Box are at two forty two fifty, which
Speaker 5: is quite staggering. Really, I would have them pretty neck
Speaker 5: and neck, maybe the All Blacks favorites given to the
Speaker 5: end park record, given they're on home soil. But you
Speaker 5: look at that All Black squad and just the injuries
Speaker 5: at half back and the questions around the wings do
Speaker 5: make you a bit nervous, but on the other side
Speaker 5: of the coin. While certainly our focus and much of
Speaker 5: New Zealand's focus is on the All Blacks, the Springboks
Speaker 5: have been well below their best this year as well.
Speaker 5: They were upset by the Wallabies at Alice Park and
Speaker 5: very much went back to type the following week and
Speaker 5: scraped out of victory to go one on one with
Speaker 5: the Wallabies at home. So they have question marks over
Speaker 5: them as well. But it does sort of feel like
Speaker 5: form is almost irrelevant in a match like this.
Speaker 4: What do you reckon?
Speaker 2: I think it is.
Speaker 3: It feels like doesn't matter what's gone on in the
Speaker 3: three five Tests that these teams have played so far
Speaker 3: this year. That's all going to go out the window.
Speaker 3: And it's a cliche, but it will go out the
Speaker 3: window at seven oh five on Saturday night. It won't
Speaker 3: matter two weeks ago that the All Blacks lost in Argentina.
Speaker 3: It won't matter three weeks ago that the box are
Speaker 3: upset by Australia. This will be All Blacks in South
Speaker 3: Africa as it has always been right through their storied history,
Speaker 3: a Test match where to be honest, on the surface
Speaker 3: of I don't think there'll be much in it comes
Speaker 3: Saturday and up whoever ends up winning. I think that's
Speaker 3: the nature of the rivalry and sometimes that supersedes the
Speaker 3: form that teams go into it prior to it. I
Speaker 3: think this is where these two seams sit and have
Speaker 3: always sat when they face each other.
Speaker 5: That's right, and it is very much that rivalry, isn't it.
Speaker 5: It's the storied history, the respect the success of the
Speaker 5: two dominant teams within world rugby as far back as
Speaker 5: you can remember. So that's transformed and progressed into the
Speaker 5: modern age. But it's an interesting backdrop that we find
Speaker 5: ourselves in because the Springboks have had the All Blacks
Speaker 5: number and you can go back to last year and
Speaker 5: look at the All Blacks out playing the spring Box
Speaker 5: in South Africa for fifteen minutes only to let it
Speaker 5: slip and fade away.
Speaker 4: And then the World Cup final.
Speaker 5: We could argue the All Blacks could have order should
Speaker 5: have won that game, but they didn't. So results matter
Speaker 5: and South Africa will certainly bring that confidence in because
Speaker 5: no matter how you perform, no matter what decisions or
Speaker 5: moments and matches you can highlight the spring Box have
Speaker 5: won the last four and.
Speaker 4: You know they have pedigree.
Speaker 5: In recent times of winning matches of real significance, and
Speaker 5: that does matter when all eyes are on, when the
Speaker 5: pressure tells when you need clutch moments, so that big
Speaker 5: game temperament is stacked in their favor.
Speaker 3: And that's what we probably haven't seen yet from this
Speaker 3: All Blacks era under Scott Robertson. I mean, they've had
Speaker 3: some good wins. The Irish win last year, the England
Speaker 3: win at Twickenham, both very very good wins. But there's
Speaker 3: a legitimate argument you can make it they should have
Speaker 3: left South Africa one win, one lost last year maybe
Speaker 3: even if you're being generous, should have won potentially both
Speaker 3: of those games given where they sat in both of them.
Speaker 3: So it's about finishing and what we've seen from the
Speaker 3: All Blacks is they've just had moments in games where
Speaker 3: they've switched off and gone out of games. And last
Speaker 3: year it was the last twenty minutes where they didn't
Speaker 3: score a point for weeks on end. This year it
Speaker 3: seems to be minutes forty to sixty where they go
Speaker 3: cold and struggling to get back in the contest. So
Speaker 3: they've got to deliver an eighty minute performance and nothing
Speaker 3: less than that is going to do come Saturday night.
Speaker 5: That's right, and that patchy elements has been evident largely
Speaker 5: throughout Scott Robinson's tenure. You mentioned the victory in Dublin,
Speaker 5: which is the standout achievement, but the French game in
Speaker 5: Paris they were dominant throughout and then let it slip
Speaker 5: in the second half. This year there was the one
Speaker 5: performance against the very second string French team, the worst
Speaker 5: side that they put out in their three match series
Speaker 5: in Wellington. But even in Argentina, dominant first half in
Speaker 5: the first Test, two yellow cards and they come down
Speaker 5: a cliff and almost let the puma's back in. And
Speaker 5: then the worst performance of Scott Robinson's tenure last time out.
Speaker 5: So that patchy elements. Is it a lack of concentration?
Speaker 5: Is its system error? Is its combinations? Is it coaching floors?
Speaker 5: Because that coaching team lacks experience on the test stage,
Speaker 5: So that the in the middle of he like you say,
Speaker 5: to put together a four to eighty minute performance, to
Speaker 5: stay the course, to come up clutch, to have the
Speaker 5: right discipline when things aren't going your way, to ride
Speaker 5: through momentum and regain composure.
Speaker 4: There are some big question marks in that regard over
Speaker 4: this All Black team.
Speaker 3: Certainly a few personnel notes to go through this week.
Speaker 3: Half back wise, Cortes Ratama is going to be given
Speaker 3: every opportunity to play this Saturday night at Eden Park
Speaker 3: had a rib issue that we knew about coming back
Speaker 3: from Argentina. He is touch and go. I think it's
Speaker 3: fair to save for Saturday Night. We heard from Scott
Speaker 3: robertson the last couple of hours basically saying they'll give
Speaker 3: them every chance to play.
Speaker 2: But it's firming.
Speaker 3: You'd have to say that Philay Christie will make his
Speaker 3: first his start in quite some time, and Kyle Preston
Speaker 3: likely to make a dabu off the bench. Davy Row
Speaker 3: has been called in his training cover to the All
Speaker 3: Blacks this week as well. So that's a big blow
Speaker 3: losing Cortiz Ratima if indeed he is out this week,
Speaker 3: and it's a big pressure on Finlay Christie.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd never profess to be anywhere near in All
Speaker 5: Black stage, but I've broken a fracture of rib playing
Speaker 5: rugby before, and bloody hurts, and you think about carrying
Speaker 5: that into a game, even if you did have a.
Speaker 4: Jab or something like that.
Speaker 5: If it ever needs to be, it has to be
Speaker 5: clocks you early, you're certainly going to know about it.
Speaker 5: So it's high risk to put someone into that combative
Speaker 5: stage with that sort of an injury. So I would
Speaker 5: be very surprised, particularly given they've called in Xavier Row
Speaker 5: if Cortez does play this weekend, and look, he's a tough,
Speaker 5: tough rooster. Cortez obviously played on with that injury, but
Speaker 5: he was in significant pain. So like you say, jeez,
Speaker 5: I've been the all Black's been really hard there. The
Speaker 5: missing came Roy guard Noah Hotham is potentially number two
Speaker 5: and he's out for much of the Rugby Championship, and
Speaker 5: then you lose Cortez Latimer, so you're really digging deep
Speaker 5: into to one position.
Speaker 4: So that's a real area of concern.
Speaker 5: Look, the one thing, I'm not a huge fan of
Speaker 5: fin Le Christie, but he's not going to be overawed
Speaker 5: by the stage. He was involved in those World Cup
Speaker 5: knockout games. Off the bench, he's a pretty.
Speaker 3: Coming seems to face him. He's level headed yet very
Speaker 3: kind of high lows really when you speak to him.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 5: I do have concerns about his kicking game. It's de
Speaker 5: al Black's their contestable kicks. The accuracy of them has
Speaker 5: been in an area of vulnerability and that's not one
Speaker 5: of his strengths. What he does bring, he's very nuggety,
Speaker 5: he gets over the ball. He's usually very strong defensively.
Speaker 5: His delivery is actually quite sharp off the deck if
Speaker 5: you look at the speed. So he's an unflappable character.
Speaker 5: He won't be take a backward step with the big
Speaker 5: box forwards coming around the fringes. But yeah, and then
Speaker 5: Kyle Preston, what a potentially massive occasion to make your debut.
Speaker 5: And I guess the other one who's coming to the mix.
Speaker 5: Very unlucky to se him this week, but less of
Speaker 5: fighting a Nuoku played a couple of games for Tasman
Speaker 5: and gets the board seal of approval to come in
Speaker 5: a in any way surprised by that.
Speaker 3: Not really, because it feels like they can bend the
Speaker 3: rules as they see fit to get players and to
Speaker 3: Marthy and Wise, all Blacks rugby season is over out
Speaker 3: for three months with a broken arm. Fighting an Ooku
Speaker 3: has been in good form for Tasman since coming back.
Speaker 3: It's got a great try where he rushed off several
Speaker 3: defenders against Otago on Saturday night. He is the logical replacement.
Speaker 3: The board have clearly given their approval. He's been with
Speaker 3: Tasman since the start of pre season, has played some
Speaker 3: good rugby. I've got no problem with them him being selected.
Speaker 3: It's more the straight jacket that they put on themselves
Speaker 3: around these rules that they've got to bend. The You know,
Speaker 3: you put the straight jacket on yourself, you know now
Speaker 3: you want to get out of it. These are your
Speaker 3: own rules. They're not dictated to by World Rugby. So
Speaker 3: that's the kind of issue I've got around the eligibility
Speaker 3: and the seven levers that they can pull.
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: These are of their own making. You can break the
Speaker 2: rules as much as you want. I know it. Maybe not.
Speaker 3: That doesn't send the best message to players that have
Speaker 3: been in New Zealand rugby for a number of times.
Speaker 2: But I've seen it before on the podcast.
Speaker 3: If you have a contract that is existing with New
Speaker 3: Zealand Rugby, as far as I'm concerned, you are free
Speaker 3: to play, You're eligible to play.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't have an issue with it.
Speaker 5: I think technically, and this is what I've seen previously
Speaker 5: with guys like Damian McKenzie and TJ Peinara when they
Speaker 5: went away to Japan and didn't have a New Zealand
Speaker 5: Rugby contract, they had to come back and play a
Speaker 5: whole season of NPCs. So that's why that's where the
Speaker 5: precedent is set.
Speaker 4: That's where it is. But I don't have an issue
Speaker 4: with that.
Speaker 5: He's come back, he's played a couple of games, he's
Speaker 5: I think the key thing is he's committed his future.
Speaker 5: He's not just back for five minutes and he's going
Speaker 5: to buger off again. And look, when I think about
Speaker 5: a guy like Lester fining Anookoo and I compare him
Speaker 5: even to an antoin Leina Brown, and you think about
Speaker 5: the versatility you put Lester on the bench and he
Speaker 5: can cover second center, wing and just his power elements
Speaker 5: that as a massive asset to heaving your squad.
Speaker 2: You say you wouldn't expect to see him this week.
Speaker 5: I don't think so. He only arrived in camp on
Speaker 5: Sunday night. I think it's probably a wee bit of
Speaker 5: a rush perhaps for the second Test in Wellington.
Speaker 3: If he's fit and he's a good form, why not
Speaker 3: get him in Like I think he is the kind
Speaker 3: of difference maker that the All Blacks have been screaming
Speaker 3: out for, especially with some of the injuries they've got
Speaker 3: around Caleb Clark and Billy Procter has struggled. I don't
Speaker 3: know whether i'd start him this week necessarily, but if
Speaker 3: you put him in Jersey twenty three and have the
Speaker 3: ability to use him on the wing, use him in
Speaker 3: midfield in the last twenty five thirty minutes of a
Speaker 3: Test match, why not. And that's the kind of position
Speaker 3: i'mond if he's going to help you win the Test
Speaker 3: match this week, put him in there.
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have an issue that I think he'd be
Speaker 5: make a massive impact if you talk about bringing someone
Speaker 5: on and that in the second half when fatigues in
Speaker 5: the mix, and he is the type of combative character
Speaker 5: that could really stand up to some of those spring
Speaker 5: Box players. Just on Caleb Clark, He's come back from
Speaker 5: an ankle injury, played one game for Auckland and will
Speaker 5: not be available for the All Blacks this weekend.
Speaker 4: We'll play for Auckland again. I would have picked him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if he's got sorow.
Speaker 3: Wlison's explanation around it was that they wanted to see
Speaker 3: him get another game. Well, you can see him get
Speaker 3: another game against South Africa this weekend if he's fit.
Speaker 2: He's fit.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you've got massive issue issues under the high ball.
Speaker 5: He's by far and away your best aerial athlete. I
Speaker 5: would have been ushering him straight into the left wing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And again you can protect yourself on the bench if
Speaker 3: you know the ankle does tweak and injuries can happen. Again,
Speaker 3: that's why you select a bench again. I just what's
Speaker 3: the benefit of getting NPC game versus a test match
Speaker 3: and then to roll Lomax has been with the thumb
Speaker 3: and dry for the last few weeks, and I get
Speaker 3: their different parts of the body, but he's had a
Speaker 3: thumbdrefs last few weeks. Is going to go straight back
Speaker 3: and presumably to the run on side to start in
Speaker 3: the three Jersey on Saturday night.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And Caleb Clark performed very well against the spring
Speaker 5: Box in South Africa last year, and that's possibly because
Speaker 5: of the way the spring Box play. You know, Grant
Speaker 5: Williams is going to box kick all day. You know,
Speaker 5: Andre Pollard is going to hoist to the heavens and
Speaker 5: put it in crossfield kicks so I think it's an
Speaker 5: oversight to not select Clark this week.
Speaker 3: It should be noted that the All Blacks and New
Speaker 3: Zealand ABY didn't take any notice of my comments on
Speaker 3: Aby Direct last week. All my opinion piece for the
Speaker 3: New Zealand Herald around getting Aaron Smith in. But that's
Speaker 3: all right. You know you can't win them all your
Speaker 3: fly kite sometimes and see what happens.
Speaker 4: It's good to have an opinion people, It's be a
Speaker 4: boring line otherwise.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: A regular sis Steve Lenthial from across the TASM and said,
Speaker 3: do you or Liam have your boots ready to PLAYT nine?
Speaker 2: Give them the current injury crisis.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm fairly confident if you've got you get
Speaker 3: through seventy five minutes, I might come on for the
Speaker 3: last five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've played half.
Speaker 4: Bankied the new but that's not saying a lot.
Speaker 2: In terms of that All Blacks makes.
Speaker 3: Then if we looked at this team which will be
Speaker 3: announced on Thursday, do you expect big changes from the
Speaker 3: side that lost to Argentina and Buenos Aires.
Speaker 5: I don't know, but I think Wallace the TC comes
Speaker 5: into eight already goes to seven. I think there's a
Speaker 5: real question about whether the tup of goes back into
Speaker 5: Locke and maybe they start Simon Parker at six. I
Speaker 5: think that that balance Fabian Holland started to look a
Speaker 5: bit fatigued. I think there's a real question about whether
Speaker 5: you potentially go six to two on the bench but
Speaker 5: one of and then there's the wings.
Speaker 4: I think you don't want to push the panut button
Speaker 4: here with with the you don't want.
Speaker 2: Putting the panic pushing the panic button?
Speaker 5: Is it?
Speaker 2: These guys aren't playing?
Speaker 4: Well? What other change?
Speaker 5: I'm happy to change the wings, but I'm just saying
Speaker 5: that you don't want to throw the baby out of
Speaker 5: the bath water, like you you're yeah, what will Jordan
Speaker 5: stays at fallback? I think Bowden stays at ten, and
Speaker 5: I think the midfield probably stays unchanged. Like what are
Speaker 5: the changes you're making?
Speaker 3: Well, you can put least defying a nook on one
Speaker 3: of the wings immediately changes the dynamic. I think of
Speaker 3: that back line. If you put him in, he's eligible
Speaker 3: for selection.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a there's an element of rest with that too.
Speaker 5: His plays basically spent two years playing midfield in France.
Speaker 5: How much high ballwork has he done, that's where he's
Speaker 5: going to be targeted.
Speaker 3: Yep, And that is a very good question. What about
Speaker 3: but what are you doing with I'm keeping too provide there.
Speaker 3: I agree that Holland is looking a little bit fatigued.
Speaker 3: I mean he's played. I think he came off the bench. Sorry,
Speaker 3: was substituted in the last game in Buenos Aires, but
Speaker 3: that was the first time he didn't play eighty as
Speaker 3: an All Black, and this is a young kid being exposed.
Speaker 2: He's ruby for the first time.
Speaker 3: Probably wouldn't have played every test in the French series
Speaker 3: if not for Scott Barrett's injury and obviously the shift
Speaker 3: from two BO five to six, so he's had a
Speaker 3: big workload. But I still think that they'll probably get
Speaker 3: another test out of him this week.
Speaker 2: What about.
Speaker 5: Last timeouts to Mighty, Williams came off the bench Ethan
Speaker 5: the group starts. It's an interesting question because Ethan Degree
Speaker 5: is not really an impact player.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but.
Speaker 4: To Mighty and Williams can play sixty seventy minutes, So
Speaker 4: what are you doing there?
Speaker 3: I'm starting Ethan degreed again this week with an either
Speaker 3: to Mighty starting next week in Wellington.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: He hasn't had the rugby load to Mighty Williams in
Speaker 3: recent times to not justify justify as the wrong word,
Speaker 3: but as a prop to play that sixty minute spell,
Speaker 3: I think he needs to build into it. Give him
Speaker 3: another half hour this week. And again we're talking about
Speaker 3: impact off the bench to Mighty can bring that in spade.
Speaker 3: So I think for this week I would stick with
Speaker 3: Ethan de Groot, who's I think been pretty good so
Speaker 3: far this season, with a lot of question marks in
Speaker 3: the offseason and various things around his role in the
Speaker 3: All Blacks, you know, after the question marks at that
Speaker 3: end of the year too, I think he's responded well.
Speaker 2: But I'll probably stick with Ethan to start it this week.
Speaker 5: Ye I think that's the way they'll go. But I
Speaker 5: want to harness to Whity because he he is the
Speaker 5: all court modern day prop. He's athletic, he brings so
Speaker 5: much more around the field with his ball skills, and
Speaker 5: I don't think you really lose much of anything from
Speaker 5: a scrummaging perspective.
Speaker 2: Would you go Lomax straight in at tighthead?
Speaker 4: I think Lomex will come off the bench.
Speaker 5: He hasn't played a lot of rugby this show and
Speaker 5: Fletchernel's playing out of his skin exceptionally well.
Speaker 3: Lomex played ten games, the Hurricanes had a couple of injuries.
Speaker 3: There only once in the All Black, so eleven games
Speaker 3: all year, which is a low low load. Let's go
Speaker 3: back to the wings. Who are your All Black starting
Speaker 3: wings this week?
Speaker 5: I think there's a strong argument. I don't think they'll
Speaker 5: do this, but Will Jordan is probably your best or
Speaker 5: Black wing. I don't think they'll do that. I would
Speaker 5: be putting the money in Narawa and to start because
Speaker 5: I think he has rew upside it in the air.
Speaker 5: He's actually quite a silky athlete. And the other thing
Speaker 5: I would have started Caleb Clark, but I think Scott
Speaker 5: Robinson is quite a loyal coaches and he at heart,
Speaker 5: and maybe he drops one of them and retains Rico.
Speaker 4: Perhaps.
Speaker 5: I think Sevu could be targeted just purely because of
Speaker 5: his height, but Rico hasn't shown a great capacity since
Speaker 5: going to the wing of not only on a defensive bomb,
Speaker 5: but contesting and chasing kicks like he really needs a
Speaker 5: rock it.
Speaker 3: In that regard, I would like to see Natawa this week.
Speaker 3: I mean ideal, I like see if iing and Ky.
Speaker 3: I mean I've advocated a few moments ago for him
Speaker 3: to maybe come off the bench. I suspect you won't
Speaker 3: start this week on the left wing, Leroy Carter. It's
Speaker 3: an aerial game. Not sure that this is the test
Speaker 3: todaybuting and again I would have liked to see him
Speaker 3: and Is off the bench potentially, but I believe that
Speaker 3: out and out pace. I mean, look at the box
Speaker 3: wings that they've had through recent years, Curtly, Arens, Cheslin Colby.
Speaker 3: These aren't big blokes. These are pocket rockets.
Speaker 5: Same with the Wallabies. Yeah, Max Jorgensen. It's not all
Speaker 5: about my small individuals at all. Yeah, they were some
Speaker 5: of their best performers in South Africa.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: And then I would like to see Liroy Carter. I
Speaker 3: think he's the point of difference that pace. I think
Speaker 3: he's the fastest player in New Zealand Super Rugby. Again,
Speaker 3: this is unlikely they give him the opportunity this week,
Speaker 3: but I would like to see him in the mix
Speaker 3: this week.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Some of these a lot of these selection questions.
Speaker 5: Comes back to how the All Blacks approach the box
Speaker 5: because stylistically, for me, it's important that the All Blacks
Speaker 5: don't go into their shells.
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't become too conservative.
Speaker 5: You look and for me, a lot of it comes
Speaker 5: back to how the Wallabies really tested the spring Box
Speaker 5: and I would argue Joe Schmidt was a massive part
Speaker 5: of the All Black's revival and the success they had
Speaker 5: against the spring Box, that big triumph.
Speaker 4: They push them to the brink in the World Cup final.
Speaker 5: Stylistically, the Wallabies are fatigued a very big, heavy.
Speaker 4: Slow and mobile spring Box po on the high velt.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they stretched them with their kicking game, with their pace,
Speaker 5: with their ball movement. And for me, that's where this
Speaker 5: All Black team needs to go.
Speaker 4: It needs to.
Speaker 5: Unlock and unleash their attack and they do that by
Speaker 5: bringing fatigue into the game, not by.
Speaker 4: Being dragged into a dog fire.
Speaker 5: And to the South Africa, how the South Africa want
Speaker 5: you to play with the contestable kicks, with the set
Speaker 5: piece battle. You can be strong in those areas, but
Speaker 5: you've got a play at pace. You have to bring
Speaker 5: fatigue into the game. You have to use your skill
Speaker 5: sets and attack because yeah, the Springboks are going to kick,
Speaker 5: but that actually opens up a lot of opportunity and
Speaker 5: the counter attack because the defensive lines are broken. So
Speaker 5: I really want this All Black team to be brave
Speaker 5: and to attack and to not be conservative. In the
Speaker 5: backdrop of all this pressure of Eden Park, of the
Speaker 5: magnitude of the occasion of coming off a defeat, then
Speaker 5: they really need to be brave and take this head on.
Speaker 3: This even part record, it's kind of it's the old
Speaker 3: millstone around the neck, isn't it that eventually at some
Speaker 3: point is going to get broken, whether it's this week
Speaker 3: on and almost that fear of being the team that
Speaker 3: loses it is real. It's also while we don't have
Speaker 3: a new stadium, partly because everyone talks about how rate
Speaker 3: even Parkers and the record it is that's trotted out
Speaker 3: as a line, why you know we should keep it
Speaker 3: as you know, the All Blacks spiritual home. So it's
Speaker 3: got to go at some point, but it is. It's
Speaker 3: a real thing that has talked about already, been talked
Speaker 3: about at the media conferences this week. You know around
Speaker 3: how much that Eden Park record means fifty without loss.
Speaker 5: You can you can read a lot into these things,
Speaker 5: and whether it transpires in the match itself is another matter.
Speaker 5: But I was actually quite impressed with Scott Robinson today,
Speaker 5: because there have been a number of times I think
Speaker 5: in his short tenure where partly because of his dyslexia
Speaker 5: and those things, he is not.
Speaker 4: Great.
Speaker 5: It's expressing himself when when the stakes are really high,
Speaker 5: or when he's uncomfortable in the spotlight. But today he
Speaker 5: was very calm and eloquent and spoke to that fear,
Speaker 5: didn't he He said, Look, it's a human reaction and
Speaker 5: actually that's quite a good thing to prepare the body to,
Speaker 5: you know, like a protectionism, a reaction, and if if
Speaker 5: that translates through the All Blacks, I think it's a
Speaker 5: good thing. And yeah, there is a fear of losing,
Speaker 5: but there is a real sense of comfort. You've got
Speaker 5: to remember there's still a lot of experience and fond
Speaker 5: memories for so many of those senior All Blacks. Eden
Speaker 5: Park is a place of comfort. So while it's yeah,
Speaker 5: while there is a lot of pressure to uphold that record,
Speaker 5: it is a place of strength for the All Blacks.
Speaker 5: And on the other side of the coin, it's the
Speaker 5: last bastion for this Spring Boks team who are in
Speaker 5: the conversation for among the greatest teams of all time.
Speaker 5: They back to back Welch Cup champions have pretty much
Speaker 5: done everything else and this is the last one they
Speaker 5: want to knock.
Speaker 3: Off you and that and it also there's a lot
Speaker 3: of string Walks players that I don't think will make
Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven and this team, and they haven't toured
Speaker 3: New Zealand that often due to COVID. I only came
Speaker 3: once in the last World Cup cycle when they went
Speaker 3: to Mount Smart because of the FIFA World Cup Women's
Speaker 3: World Cup that was on at the same time. They
Speaker 3: haven't played at eden Park since twenty thirteen. They would
Speaker 3: have gone there in twenty seventeen but they just had
Speaker 3: to The backs just had two lines tests at eden Park.
Speaker 3: So there's been all sorts of reasons they haven't played
Speaker 3: at eden Park that often. And it feels like you're
Speaker 3: right final frontier. Maybe some of these players don't make
Speaker 3: the twenty seven World Cup, as a suggested with Aordue
Speaker 3: respect because it feels like some of them have the
Speaker 3: age profile that is just not going to help the
Speaker 3: spring Box when they get there. So big tests from
Speaker 3: the Springbox this weekend as well.
Speaker 2: Big moment.
Speaker 5: Well, that's right, let's run through some of their ages
Speaker 5: because this is a big question mark around the Box.
Speaker 5: You know, how long do you hang on to a
Speaker 5: certain generation of player and when are they passed that
Speaker 5: Fords do tend to play on longer yep, particularly Hookers
Speaker 5: and the Light, but even Estabeth thirty three, Kaliss thirty four,
Speaker 5: Oxen each thirty, marx Is thirty one, Moster thirty four,
Speaker 5: Sniemon thirty, Thomas through Toy thirty, the Yaga thirty two,
Speaker 5: Quager Smith thirty two. So you're coming down the other
Speaker 5: side potentially. So that is a real question around this
Speaker 5: Box team. You know, they haven't regenerated and will that
Speaker 5: catch up with them and might.
Speaker 2: Do at some point.
Speaker 3: I mean they've got a massive squad of Lot fifty
Speaker 3: that they had at one point. There's clearly an I
Speaker 3: to the future from Russi, but hasn't pulled the trigger
Speaker 3: as yet on really bringing those players into run on
Speaker 3: sides on a regular basis. He's given a lot of
Speaker 3: them a taste, but he's stuck with those players and
Speaker 3: whether it happens after this Rugby Championship, whether it happens
Speaker 3: on the end of Yew tour. Feels like at some
Speaker 3: point he's going to have to make those decisions as
Speaker 3: as Springbooks coach. So yeah, it's in some ways it
Speaker 3: could be not necessarily an end of an era for
Speaker 3: this too. You know, on this tour of the theke
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks with the spring Walks, but you
Speaker 3: know they are at some point going to have to
Speaker 3: look to twenty twenty seven and decide the best mix
Speaker 3: for them.
Speaker 5: There's so many different elements at play here and in questions,
Speaker 5: aren't there in the backdrop of all this. Another one
Speaker 5: for me is the coaching wits. You've got Russi Rassmus,
Speaker 5: the the Lord and Savior of South African rugby, you know,
Speaker 5: this god like figure, the great innovator, the man that's
Speaker 5: delivered them so much success, who has so much experience
Speaker 5: at test level up against a relative rookie, and Scott Robinson,
Speaker 5: who had great experience, great success or domestic rugby, is
Speaker 5: unproven and his coaching team is the same your black
Speaker 5: Sad Wayne Smith in their camp this week, So tap
Speaker 5: into the to the professor. But on a big occasion
Speaker 5: like this, how much do you put down to the
Speaker 5: coaching wits?
Speaker 4: How much.
Speaker 5: How much influence do those little special players have, whether
Speaker 5: it's a line out, set move or a piece of
Speaker 5: trickery that that scene in analysis. You know how much
Speaker 5: does experience matter. So it is a massive week from
Speaker 5: a coaching perspective too.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all those details that you mentioned there, and Tony
Speaker 3: Brown's had the full bag of tricks right throughout his
Speaker 3: coaching career when he's at the Highlanders. You know, the
Speaker 3: special plays that he'd come up with. I'm sure there's
Speaker 3: a couple up the sleeve from Tony Brown for this
Speaker 3: weekend that the All Blacks won't have seen the pictures
Speaker 3: of in their analysis. You hope that the All Blacks
Speaker 3: have something similar. You think back to that can royguard
Speaker 3: try he scored in Wellington off the line out that
Speaker 3: was worked up by Brne Evans. You know, maybe the
Speaker 3: All Blacks have got a few up their sleeve as well.
Speaker 3: But it is all about those one percenters to try
Speaker 3: and find, you know, whatever the small margins are to
Speaker 3: win this Test match on Saturday night.
Speaker 5: Do you expect the We've seen the spring Box played
Speaker 5: two different ways against the Wallabies.
Speaker 4: One worked for them, one didn't.
Speaker 2: I think they'll go with the one that worked for
Speaker 2: them this weekends.
Speaker 5: It's my suspicion yeah, because it could be a bit
Speaker 5: of rain rounds. It's all yeah, yeah, but I hope
Speaker 5: the all blacks, regardless of conditions, just still play. And
Speaker 5: Scott Robinson intimated that today. But following through on that
Speaker 5: can be a bit of a different beast when when
Speaker 5: that that rush pressure is coming in your face, when
Speaker 5: you know scoreboard might not be on your sides, when
Speaker 5: the stakes are so high.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: We'll take a quick break here on Rugby come back
Speaker 3: with a few rugby topics to cover off after this.
Speaker 1: This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2: Try Drive had sixty sec every tackle, tackles, Get up again,
Speaker 2: I can't afore times. It's Rugby Direct. You're back with
Speaker 2: Rugby Direct time out for the final four.
Speaker 3: Four rugby topics and an important one to cover off,
Speaker 3: I think Liam the passing of Shane Christie last week.
Speaker 3: Tasman flanker of more than seventy games for his province,
Speaker 3: also coached Tasman Highlanders co captain and regular player for
Speaker 3: them as well, and also the coaching role with the
Speaker 3: high as well.
Speaker 2: He suspected he had CTE.
Speaker 3: He suspect you suspected suicide Last week and you know,
Speaker 3: shockingly sad news and again just confronting around some of
Speaker 3: those issues that face us in rugby and professional rugby
Speaker 3: and really make you take a step back.
Speaker 4: Massively.
Speaker 5: And you and I were talking to Finlay Christie today
Speaker 5: and a stand up and I think that the raw
Speaker 5: emotion for people and players and anyone who was closely
Speaker 5: connected with Shane is still very evident. I think his
Speaker 5: service will be on Tuesday in New Zealand.
Speaker 4: And look, I think.
Speaker 5: First and foremost Shane was an incredibly courageous player, hugely underrated,
Speaker 5: probably open side flanker. He co captain the Honders and
Speaker 5: you know went into coaching. There's no doubt that he
Speaker 5: was massively affected by his good friend Billy Geisen's death
Speaker 5: and he could quite well to be found to be
Speaker 5: found to have suffered the same fate, because Christy will
Speaker 5: donate his brain to science to be studied to find
Speaker 5: out whether indeed he does have CT, which can only
Speaker 5: be diagnosed post mortem. And yeah, I guess you feel
Speaker 5: for everyone who knew him and he was on a
Speaker 5: bit of a crusade.
Speaker 4: Wasn't a shamed to.
Speaker 5: Get bitter support, education and understanding around head knocks in
Speaker 5: the game. I think New Zealand Rugby have not shied
Speaker 5: away from that. They have done a lot to tackle
Speaker 5: that issue. There's always more that can be done. And yeah,
Speaker 5: I think the one thing you've got to say is
Speaker 5: you can never understand what people are going through unless
Speaker 5: you're walking in those shoes. And ct is a real
Speaker 5: disease and it can make you manic, it can make
Speaker 5: you depressed, and unless you're in that space, you can't
Speaker 5: relate to it. So he's thirty nine years old, man,
Speaker 5: I'm thirty seven. Just incredibly sad to lose someone at
Speaker 5: that age.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a great player, and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when it comes to rugby, and I
Speaker 3: know there are some loud voices and you know form
Speaker 3: players that have got CTE. I think of Alex Pop
Speaker 3: and miss with Jackson and Pye the other day and
Speaker 3: others that have that have lent their voice. And to
Speaker 3: be dealing with your life while you are dealing with
Speaker 3: what you suspect is CTE and your brain's not quite
Speaker 3: working as you know it should is terrifying, absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 2: You think of.
Speaker 3: You know, people in old age who you go through
Speaker 3: these things, Well, it's an accelerated essentially a version of
Speaker 3: you know that right at the end of their lives.
Speaker 3: You know, these has happened to people in their thirties
Speaker 3: and forties. And I guess the question is, you know,
Speaker 3: should Rugby be doing more? I suppose they can always
Speaker 3: do more, but this isn't I think Rugby's constantly evolving,
Speaker 3: and it's not the game that we're playing in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five. Isn't the game that we're playing in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: It's not the game they're playing in twenty fifteen or
Speaker 3: twenty ten. This is an evolving game. We've seen that
Speaker 3: with the rule changes that they've been implementing around head
Speaker 3: contact in recent times, and the game has changed in
Speaker 3: any number of ways that it is evolving to a
Speaker 3: product where you can do the utmost potentially to try
Speaker 3: and protect players suffering these sort of concussions.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the one thing that where Rugby needs
Speaker 5: to move is not it's not been in denial, but
Speaker 5: it's not waiting. So Christy and Billy goiiton haad CTE.
Speaker 5: And there's no way of definitively knowing until their brains
Speaker 5: can be examined posts mortem.
Speaker 4: But if they need.
Speaker 5: If anyone who's played the game for a long period,
Speaker 5: particularly a professional level, needs psychiatric or medical support, the
Speaker 5: rugby can be better at wrapping their arms around them
Speaker 5: and providing that, not saying, well, you might have that
Speaker 5: you might not. It might be personality traits, it might
Speaker 5: be other factors. Just provide the help, and I think
Speaker 5: that's where it needs to get to.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thoughts with Shan Cresty and his family and friends
Speaker 3: as they prepare a farewellhem at a service on Tuesday.
Speaker 3: Let's move on to other rugby topics and the Black
Speaker 3: Ferns continuing at the World Cup through to the quarterfinals
Speaker 3: with a win over Japan. Pusha Woodman fifty tries in
Speaker 3: her test career, was in retirement a few months ago,
Speaker 3: but I think the Black fans are building quite nicely
Speaker 3: as they prepare for Irelands next week, which is going
Speaker 3: to be the toughest test in Paul play. And we
Speaker 3: hope four big test matches in a row for the
Speaker 3: Black Ferns have changed a few things around. We saw
Speaker 3: Georgia Miller play on the blind overnight against Japan.
Speaker 2: Positive signs.
Speaker 3: I think they're for the Black Ferns in a game
Speaker 3: that Again, these games at World Cups were expected to
Speaker 3: win are often no win situation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's quite hard to get a gauge, isn't it.
Speaker 4: In these matches.
Speaker 5: I think they've made mass changes in both games at halftime.
Speaker 5: They've used all, you know, thirty two players, so that's
Speaker 5: positive to get everyone involved from the outset. Yeah, Georgia
Speaker 5: Millis saw her try breakdown, turnover and sprint away to score, which.
Speaker 2: She's playing like a bat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's obviously from the sevens program, but she's playing
Speaker 3: as an eight back essentially for the Ferns.
Speaker 4: That's it.
Speaker 5: And teenage was kid Braxton, so Sorrenson McGee three tries.
Speaker 5: She's a bit of a weapon as well. So I
Speaker 5: think Boxers tipped for the Black Ferns. I think that potentially.
Speaker 5: I was taking to our colleague Chris Reeve, who's covering
Speaker 5: the tournament from AFAR. He suggested they're potentially on course
Speaker 5: for France in a quarterfinal. So Island will be a
Speaker 5: big step up, won't And you need that challenge. You
Speaker 5: can't just have runaway matches.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they lost Island last year. There's gonna be
Speaker 3: a bit between the teeth. You'd hope from the Black
Speaker 3: fans to try and rectify that Island were a bit scratchy.
Speaker 3: I thought overnight against Spain in the game that they
Speaker 3: probably should have won and when comfortably it was forty
Speaker 3: three twenty seven off the top of my heir twenty
Speaker 3: four twelve at half time. So the Black Fans win that.
Speaker 3: Possibly South Africa or France in the quarterfinals. So you know,
Speaker 3: big Test matches in South Africa been the vast improvers
Speaker 3: and women's rugby over the last eighteen months or so.
Speaker 3: They've gone huge upwards trajectory of the last eighteen months.
Speaker 3: So we wait and see that. But big game against
Speaker 3: Ireland next week. Topic number three Wallabies in Argentina Townsville,
Speaker 3: home of the Cowboys. Do you give Argentina a shot
Speaker 3: of going to Townsville and beating the Australians.
Speaker 5: Not sure if they went in Townsville, but I think
Speaker 5: they go. I think they do take a victory and
Speaker 5: that would be pretty consistent with the Pomas, wouldn't it.
Speaker 5: They tend to not hot and cold, but they tend
Speaker 5: to have one performance in them and drop their level.
Speaker 5: Coming off the high of the All Blacks victory. They're
Speaker 5: first in Argentina and history. I think there will be
Speaker 5: a bit of a calm down. There's no reason why
Speaker 5: they can't ride that wave. The Wallabies will be without
Speaker 5: Will Skelton, big big out for them and still nursing
Speaker 5: some other bigs out big outs Tom Wright, who was
Speaker 5: exceptional in their first test in Alice Park. So look,
Speaker 5: there's no reason that Pumas can't win. But I think
Speaker 5: they go one on one in that tour.
Speaker 3: I so speak Australia wins this week in Townsville, but
Speaker 3: next week might be a bit closer as well. I
Speaker 3: mean that's a scenario for this whole Rugby Championship, isn't it.
Speaker 3: There's not a lot between these two sides and it
Speaker 3: might be one on ones from a lot of the
Speaker 3: tours that are going around at the moment. And final topic,
Speaker 3: we started with the shield, We'll end with the shield.
Speaker 3: Waikido's tenure last did what all of seven days?
Speaker 2: I think it was in the end.
Speaker 3: Southland they just love the Rainfley shield. They think back
Speaker 3: about a deck out to go. Plus they beat Canterbury
Speaker 3: in christ Huge in two thousand and nine. I was
Speaker 3: there at Lancaster Bark Slash Jade Stadium whatever it was
Speaker 3: called in those days. Two thousand and nine three Robbie
Speaker 3: Robinson penalties nine three. Cannibry lost that night, then they
Speaker 3: lost in twenty eleven just after the earthquakes, handed the
Speaker 3: shield over to Southland again and now Cannarbury trying to
Speaker 3: get it off Southland this week.
Speaker 2: But what we saw yesterday I thought was magnificent.
Speaker 3: Sheeld rugby in the weet Southland twenty five wake at
Speaker 3: O ten, I think the Moveler's lost their heads a
Speaker 3: little bit in the last twenty minutes. I mean, you
Speaker 3: still have fifteen points down, but we're playing ed lib
Speaker 3: offload footy from about the sixty first minute.
Speaker 2: Well deserve win for Southland.
Speaker 5: And it's an interesting debate to be here because you're
Speaker 5: never going to turn down all blacks coming back. But
Speaker 5: Southland won that when Wacotta brought back four or five
Speaker 5: all blacks and some of them were upstage big time.
Speaker 5: You look at Sean with The's performance. I think he
Speaker 5: got five breakdown turnovers, the most of anyone this season.
Speaker 5: And meanwhile, you know Summer Penny Final got blitz down
Speaker 5: the blind side, beating or Leans up for one of
Speaker 5: Southland's tries.
Speaker 4: Antelina Brown was.
Speaker 5: Barely featured, so I think it did really show what
Speaker 5: the shield still means, you know, And it was just
Speaker 5: a really it was all heart, wasn't it from Southland?
Speaker 5: And but look there were some brilliant moments in that
Speaker 5: that they were technically astute and the second half really
Speaker 5: used the wind to their advantage and never looked like
Speaker 5: being run down.
Speaker 2: No they didn't.
Speaker 3: As soon as they got out to their twenty five
Speaker 3: to ten it felt like that was the game done.
Speaker 3: Fifteen points up that that was enough. I mean, wad
Speaker 3: we were playing into the wind. But Southland I thought
Speaker 3: just played superb shield footage and I really do. I
Speaker 3: think Sean mlle is a really impressive player that maybe
Speaker 3: taking a couple of years to get in his development.
Speaker 2: I was really impressed with them at age group level.
Speaker 3: He looks like a player that is building his career
Speaker 3: quite nicely in terms of some of those you know,
Speaker 3: loose forwards right around the country currently.
Speaker 5: Yeah, real leadership qualities and a huge breakdown prisence, which
Speaker 5: is incredibly valuable when you look at what do perceived
Speaker 5: carefe brought to the Hurricanes this year. So yeah, he's
Speaker 5: one and that the Hondas you know, he's one of
Speaker 5: those young guns that's really come on for them and
Speaker 5: has made a massive impact for South Fond. I guess
Speaker 5: the challenge now, isn't it as why I could have
Speaker 5: found out when you have a couple of big days
Speaker 5: of celebrations and a couple of trainings and then you've
Speaker 5: got to defend the shield, it's not so easy.
Speaker 2: No, it is not.
Speaker 3: And we look forward to hopefully Canterbury hoisting that around
Speaker 3: about an hour out from kick off at Eden Park.
Speaker 2: On Saturday, help the stacks right Okay that it has
Speaker 2: been Rugby Direx.
Speaker 3: We might pop back into your feet a bit later
Speaker 3: on in the week as well as we build up
Speaker 3: to this big Test match. But thanks to Larson Bars
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