1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Susie Nordquitzt and for Chelsea Danielson. This is 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: Zealand Herald. A replacement bridge or a new one? Or 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: how about a tunnel instead? The ongoing debate about a 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: new harbor crossing in Auckland has reignited, with Auckland's Mayor 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: Wayne Brown laying up his vision for a second bridge 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: instead of the tunnel proposed by Labor. The proposal has 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: already proved controversial as it would require building through Meola 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: Reef to Cody Point. So how does this plan stack 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: up with other proposals and why is it taking so 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: long to get this crossing off the ground. Today on 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: the front page, New Zealand Herald, Senior writer Simon Wilson 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: joins us to discuss our biggest city's biggest transport headache. Simon, 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: can you take us through what Wayne Brown has proposed 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: for a new White and Matar crossing. 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: Wayne Brown has recognized that there is a need for 17 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: greater resilience in the harbour crossing setup that we have. 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: Now we're relying on just the aging Auckland Harbor Bridge 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: and the upper Harbor Highway motorway as well, which is 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 2: a security throuit for many people. And he has also 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: recognized that tunnels cost a lot more than bridges, so 22 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: he wants to build a bridge over what he sees 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: is the short as distance between the shore and a 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: southern part of the Smith's part of Auckland, which is 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: at Mayola Reef, which is Westmere Points Chevalier on the 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: south and crosses Dacari Point on the north. 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: How viable is this as a transport route We've heard 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: about all these different proposals over the years. 29 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: Well, we're not really just talking about building a bridge, 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: we're talking about connecting motorways. So on the south there 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: is the Northwest Motorway which cuts through from Newton Gully, 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: go out to Point Chevalier and then crosses the causeway 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: and goes out to the west. Now that's pretty close 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 2: to mail A Reef, and you could build a motorway 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: extension from there just to the west of the Zoo 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: along Motions Road. So a motorway would go between the 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: Zoo and Western Springs Park on one side and Pasadena 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: Intermediate and Western Springs College on the other side. Then 39 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 2: would presumably fly over Seddin Field out to mail A 40 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: Reef and then on to the north. That's a pretty 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: big imposition on that area, but it wouldn't require much 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: destruction of housing. And if you did it as a flyover, 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: you would build it over Motions Road, so mainly you'd 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: be building it over what's already a road. Ugly but 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 2: not so disruptive. Perhaps on the northern side. However, it's 46 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: very different to get to either of the motorways, the 47 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: Upper Harbor Highway Motorway or the State Highway one. You've 48 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: got to carve through large stands of reserve which include 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: a lot of chari forest, and also got to cut 50 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: through suburban areas, so Burke, places like Burke and Heap 51 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: Glenfield would be significantly affected. It's an enormous disruption to 52 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: the shore. 53 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 3: One of my bajor things is to stop wasting money, 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 3: and the government has said that we should stop wasting money, 55 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 3: and so should they. And there's no way that the 56 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: government can afford New Zealand can afford the tunnel solution 57 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: is anywhere between thirty five and fifty five billion dollars, 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: which eats up all of the road budget for ten 59 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: years and now that's it untenable. 60 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: Do you think it has any chance of going ahead 61 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: given those environmental impacts you spoke about. 62 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: I think those environmental impacts are only one of a 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: number of things that will mean this has no chance 64 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: at all. It's interesting to think about why Wayne Brown's 65 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: raised this. It's not been proposed by any political party 66 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: at the moment that we build a new habit it's 67 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: not on the government's plans, labors out of power and 68 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: doesn't have any forward thinking policies at the moment around transport. 69 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: But he's raised this. There are other factors. That's the 70 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: environmental factors. There are some cultural factors to do with 71 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: the Mailer reef and its role in traditional Ewi culture. 72 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: There is also an engineering issue. Mail A reef is 73 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: lava rock, so it's hard, but it's pretty thin. Underneath 74 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: it is this normal kind of muck sediment that sits 75 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: at the bottom of the ocean, and actually that's very soft, 76 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: So it's a significant environmental iman. You could build the bridge, 77 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: but it would be a major engineering challenge to do that, 78 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: so that's a really big issue as well. And then 79 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: on top of that you've got to look at the. 80 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 4: Cost the vision that we're setting out today includes separate 81 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: road and rapid transit tunnels, reallocating lanes on the existing 82 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 4: Auckland Harbor Bridge to walking and cycling, include having two 83 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: rapid transit routes to the north shore. That's got the 84 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 4: greatest benefits of all the options. That comes with a 85 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 4: price tag of between thirty five and forty five billion dollars. 86 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 4: That price tag, of course, would be paid for over 87 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 4: many years, in the same way as as usual for 88 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 4: significant roading projects. 89 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: The last idea for a new crossing came from Labor, 90 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: a tunnel that would cost tens of billions of dollars 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: and take decades to build. That one's dead in the water, right. 92 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 2: So to speak. When Labor proposed tunnels under the harbor, 93 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: which would roughly be close to where the Harbor Bridge 94 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: is now, Nationals seem to be sympathetic to that, and 95 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: both the major parties have always fancied the idea of 96 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: some kind of new crossing there, and they both appeared 97 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: to favor tunnels. Tunnels will be extraordinarily expensive. Back a 98 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: few years ago, the figure of fifteen billion dollars was suggested, 99 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: but it's probably many times more than that now. Maybe 100 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: over fifty billion, who knows. And perhaps more significantly, the 101 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: last time a business case analysis was done for a 102 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: tunnel system under the harbor, it came back suggesting it 103 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: would return twenty cents on every dollar point two. Now 104 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: that's appalling. That's not the recipe with which you want 105 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: to build major infrastructure. That's what it was. Then. We 106 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: don't know what it would be now because Labor didn't 107 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: produce a new BCA for its new plans last year. 108 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: But one clue is that National hasn't included a new 109 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: work on a new harbour crossing in its new Land 110 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: Transport program, which is a funding program. And my guess 111 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: is the reason for that is they know perfectly well 112 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: that it's very hard to make it stack up financially, 113 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: so they're putting their money into other things. They're not 114 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: looking at a harbor crossing. So I don't think you 115 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 2: can see those tunnels really ever becoming a viable option. 116 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Again, there's the argument, though, something needs to be done. 117 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: How do we raise the money right? 118 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: So something needs to be done. There have been a 119 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: number of proposals for bridges. There's a lot of kind 120 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: of myth making around than what we actually need. One 121 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: of the factors is that if you build more roads, 122 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: you get more people driving. So the critical need for 123 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: the Shore is to build up what's called rapid transit 124 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: on the shore, and the North Shore is a really 125 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: interesting poster example already for why rapid transit works. The 126 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: Northern Busway was opened in two thousand and eight. Before 127 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: it opened, everybody on the shore said, we don't catch buses. 128 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: This is not going to work. This is a complete 129 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: white elephant or a complete waste of money. In fact, 130 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: now on the Harbor Bridge during the morning peak time, 131 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: something over forty percent of all commuters are riding on 132 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: a bus and it's an extraordinary success story, and it's 133 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: one of the things that it should have been copied 134 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: in Auckland by now to the west. It is being 135 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: copied now to the east, but that's still some years 136 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: off being finished. The city needs more of that Now 137 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: that Northern Busway route is going to be full quite soon, 138 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: so the North Shore is going to need extra capacity 139 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: in rapid transit. So one of the needs for the 140 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: Harbor crossing is to create more rapid transit at the 141 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: same time. I mean, it's really interesting. During the period 142 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: between two thousand and eight and now there'sh are populations 143 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: grown by forty percent, but there are not significantly more 144 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: cars on the bridge. It is because that growth has 145 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: been catered for by public transport. Keep that principle going 146 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: and you get then the key to what do we 147 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: actually need for the crossing? So we need a public 148 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: transport crossing. And in addition to that, there are an 149 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: awful lot of people who want to walk over the 150 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: bridge and cycle over the bridge and don't want to 151 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: do that in tunnels, don't particularly want to do it 152 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: on a ferry either. They actually want the pleasure, whether 153 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: they're commuters or recreational users or tourists, to be able 154 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: to get over there and enjoy the really really beautiful 155 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: city from that pantage point. 156 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,479 Speaker 1: So more buses, more ferries, and a bike lane. 157 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: More buses, or it could be light rail. See if 158 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: it's not tunnels, you know tunnels just know everywhere, So 159 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: it could be tunnels. It could be more buses and 160 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: a bike lane, yes as well. And if we do 161 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: that we will find that at the same time, if 162 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: we increase our rail freight capacity to Northland, which will 163 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 2: take freight trucks container trucks off the Harbor Bridge. If 164 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: we do that, we may find that we don't need 165 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: to build lots more roads. 166 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: Simon. We've been talking about an additional harbor crossing for 167 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: as long as I can remember. John Banks proposed a 168 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: harbor tunnel between Mechanics Bay and Devonport and the early 169 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: two thousands for one billion dollars. Why can't we just 170 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: get on with it and get it done like other countries. 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: One reason that we don't get on with and get 172 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: it done is that every time people do try and 173 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: work out the economic value of it, it comes up short. 174 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: And I mentioned before twenty cents in the dollar last 175 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 2: time it was tried. So there are a lot of 176 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: people on the North Shore who feel we should have 177 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: a new harbor crossing because they worry that the bridge 178 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: might collapse, which it is not going to do. The bridge, 179 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: with proper maintenance, we are told by the experts, will 180 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: have a reasonably long life in front of it, provided 181 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: it's managed. Provided it that doesn't continue having to take 182 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 2: lots more heavy trucks and perhaps lots more buses as well. 183 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: If it was if it was left to light traffic, 184 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: it should be fine. But people think that we're going 185 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: to need that extra crossing, so it's become as a 186 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: political thing for politicians to promise to do it. But 187 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: because it would be so expensive to do the tunnels, 188 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: that's never really been pursued, and because there are other 189 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 2: projects that always come up with a better cost value analysis, 190 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 2: this one keeps being pushed down the track. 191 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: Speaking of other countries, Sydney has recently opened the first 192 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: stage of its new rapid train line. 193 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 4: It's Australia's biggest public transport project, and today the crucial 194 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 4: city line of the Sydney Metro opened with much. 195 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 5: Fanfare five seven am. This is a moment in Sydney's history, 196 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 5: the first time a rail line has crossed underneath the Harbor, 197 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 5: part full of passengers. The tunnel that took two years 198 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 5: to dig now takes two minutes to cross. 199 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: It includes twin underwater tunnels, and it took only about 200 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: seven years to build. Its transport system seems far superior 201 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: to ours. Should we be looking across the ditch for 202 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: these ideas. 203 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: What we need to look across the ditch for is 204 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: not just the ideas of what to do, but the 205 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: way that they do them. In Sydney, that new Metro 206 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: line that you mentioned was built during periods of Labor 207 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: being in power is in the state government and the 208 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: Liberals being in power. Both of them supported it. They 209 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: had a cross party accord that kept the project going 210 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 2: despite cost blowouts, despite others saying no, no, we shouldn't 211 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: be doing this now. That cross party accord between the 212 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: two main parties meant that the project succeeded, and succeeded 213 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: in pretty quick time, which is a fantastic achievement. New 214 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: Zealand needs that cross party approach to long term infrastructure planning. 215 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: That's the thing we need most of all. And to 216 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: make it happen because the political parties also they wanted 217 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: to happen. To make it happen, they need a mechanism 218 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: that will allow them to agree these are the basic 219 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: principles on which we will build our infrastructure. There has 220 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 2: to be an economic value, There has to be some 221 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 2: recognition of environmental impacts. There probably has to be some 222 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: equity issue involved it. This going to help communities that 223 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: need help those sorts of things. If they agree on 224 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: the principles, and if our government's plan for the Independent 225 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: Infrastruy Ructure Commission and the Independent National Infrastructure Agency If 226 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: that plan progresses and they do come up with independently 227 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: developed frameworks for assessing projects, then the politicians should be 228 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: able to accept that and take the silly short term 229 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: politics out of it. If we get that, we'll really 230 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: be making progress. 231 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: Can you see it happening. 232 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: Neither nor Labor have a good track record on this. 233 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: They both canceled each other's projects the first chance they 234 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: got in the last two changes of government, so they 235 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: both got to change their ways. The National government, to 236 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: its credit, has proposed this bipartisan framework, but at the 237 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: same time they said Labor and the Greens have to 238 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: understand that we're going to build our roads. Now, that's 239 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: just a crazy way to go into negotiating a cross 240 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: party deal. What the projects are, it should be the 241 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: last thing that's decided. Priority should be to set the criteria. 242 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: What do we want? What kind of country are we building? 243 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: And I would say personally that it's got to have 244 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: a climate framework put into it. It's got to be 245 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: a missions reduction as part of the planning, because if 246 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: we're not doing that now, we're going to be doing 247 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: it soon and we should be doing it now, so 248 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: we need that and then we can start talking about 249 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: what projects fit the criteria. I don't think it's been 250 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: helpful of the government to say that, but we're going 251 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: to have our program anyway. Cross party accords aren't just 252 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: about requiring the opposition to sign up to your ideas. 253 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: They're about compromise and meeting in the middle. 254 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: What kind of country will we see in the future 255 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: if there's not this cross party support. 256 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: That's a really good question. We have got ourselves into 257 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: an appalling mess with infrastructure in this country, and we 258 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: see it everywhere, from the state of our hospital buildings, 259 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: to the roads and the railway, the cook Straight ferries, 260 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: the energy development, the lack of wind farms and sol 261 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: that we could have in this country so easily because 262 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: there has been party bickering we'll do this and no, 263 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: we'll do that. And at the same time we've also 264 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: always said, well, it's really important for governments to pay 265 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: down debt, and one of the easy things to do 266 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: is to keep maintenance out of it. If you reduce 267 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: your maintenance budget, nobody sees you're doing that, But you 268 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: get potholes, you get hospitals being run down, those sorts 269 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: of things happen, so it's actually very hard to see 270 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: how we're going to see a change in economic commitment 271 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: to funding projects and to funding the maintenance of projects 272 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: to keep them going. The thing that might make it 273 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: happen is that I think that's probably a much greater 274 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: popular understanding now that the mess we've got ourselves into economically, 275 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: we need to build our way out of it. We 276 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: need to build for better and we need to maintain better. 277 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: Are we being overly ambitious talking about bridges and tunnels? 278 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: We look at more faery options like Sydney has and 279 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: I understand you spoke with cable car company Dopplemire last year. 280 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: Is that feasible? 281 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: In my view? A range of tech alternatives. Electric ferries 282 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: cable cars are two of the options, and there are 283 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 2: probably and there are more as well, and most of 284 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,239 Speaker 2: them are relatively cheap. Most of them would be relatively 285 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: easy to implement, and therefore we should be trialing them. 286 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: You know, the cable car option. There is a new 287 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: one that's been developed in christ Church that Queenstown's going 288 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: to introduce, which is a kind of hybrid cable car 289 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: come uber in the air amazing, which is an extraordinary thing. 290 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: It wouldn't cost much at all to see whether that 291 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: can work. It wouldn't cost much at all, and it 292 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: could be done in a couple of years to put 293 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: a gondola line from Botany to the airport to see 294 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: if it works. We wouldn't lose anything at all, really, 295 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: but it could be transformative and it could have both 296 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: sort of things could have a role to play rather 297 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: than saying we have to build the biggest and most 298 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: expensive and most difficult thing we can think of and 299 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 2: that's the only way we'll solve our problems. That is 300 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: a nuts way to approach infrastructure. 301 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: Simon, how should both sides go about getting this cross 302 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 1: party support? 303 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 2: Well, the good news is that because we have an 304 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: independent Infrastructure Commission, and because the government is setting up 305 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: an independent National Infrastructure Agency which will receive projects and 306 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 2: look at financing for projects, we have the bones already 307 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: for cross party support. If the politicians are prepared to 308 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 2: say to those independent agencies, Okay, you come up with 309 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: the framework and we will sit down with you and 310 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: buy into it. If they're prepared to do that, then 311 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: we really do have the basis, or could have the 312 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: basis for a genuine collaborative approach on these things that 313 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: should be above and beyond politics if they prepare to 314 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: do that. The problem with it is every political party 315 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: sees immediate populist electoral advantage in saying we'll build that road, 316 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: we'll build that cyc away, we'll build that wind farm, 317 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: we will ban that wind farm, whatever it is, and 318 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 2: you want to get that vote getting populism out of it. 319 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: You want the social greater good to apply and you therefore, 320 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 2: if those independent agencies are powerful enough, they could be 321 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: the leaders for. 322 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: This an interesting discussion. Thank you for joining us, Simon. 323 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 324 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 325 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: at Inset Herald dot co dot endzet. The Front Page 326 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: is produced by Ethan Sells. I'm Susanne or Quist. Subscribe 327 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get 328 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind 329 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: the headlines.