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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now, the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts three hundred and fifteen for February eleven,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, and after spending two weeks in Sydney

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Speaker 2: and beyond, I have to say that it's good to

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Speaker 2: be home. So last year we began with an interview

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Speaker 2: with Shane Jones, Deputy Leader of New Zealand First, and

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Speaker 2: I thought it would be an appropriate way to begin

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Speaker 2: this year as well, for two reasons. It's election year

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Speaker 2: and I enjoyed talking to mister Jones last year, so

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Speaker 2: let's do it again this year. And so we have.

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Speaker 2: But it didn't get off to such a good start

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Speaker 2: because I just before we were due to short while

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Speaker 2: before we were due to talk, I managed to blow

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Speaker 2: the studio up. I put one one extra plug into

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Speaker 2: into a socket and everything when whiz bang. So that

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Speaker 2: delayed us a bit and stole some of our time.

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Speaker 2: So it was a little shorter than I would have liked,

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Speaker 2: and we didn't get to ask some questions I would

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Speaker 2: have liked to have pursued. But there will be another chance,

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Speaker 2: I think. Anyway, Shane Jones is Shane Jones, and we

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Speaker 2: will talk with him soon. I just want to make

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Speaker 2: reference to there's something else, because this has taken on

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Speaker 2: a life of its own. It seems people ask you know,

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Speaker 2: what are you reading or what have you bought lately?

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Speaker 2: So I did not get to read a nonfiction book,

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Speaker 2: still haven't, which means my Daniel Silver books are about

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Speaker 2: six years easily six years maybe even eight behind. I

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Speaker 2: got the books sitting on the bookshelf, but I haven't

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Speaker 2: had time to read them. And I actually bought a

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Speaker 2: Daniel Silver book, A Portrait of a Spy, which was

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Speaker 2: an early one. I think it came out in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty eleven, I think, And I don't know what happened

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Speaker 2: to my copy, but my hardcover copy, but I've ordered

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Speaker 2: a paperback of it, so my collection is complete. But

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Speaker 2: I did buy a number of books, and I just

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Speaker 2: have to comment on something. It's a beautiful thing. Decide

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Speaker 2: you want a book, go online and order it and

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Speaker 2: it's there within It's delivered within a matter of almost minutes.

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Speaker 2: For instance, I had three deliveries over the two weeks.

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Speaker 2: One of them was one of them was ordered late

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Speaker 2: in the evening and it was there at seven o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the next morning, and the other one was something similar.

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Speaker 2: But it really is something that you get with living

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Speaker 2: in a big city rather than a little country. Can't

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Speaker 2: do anything about it, as far as I'm aware, it's

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Speaker 2: not worthwhile Amazon opening up a big warehouse here, but

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Speaker 2: who knows what the future might bring would be a

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Speaker 2: good thing. So let's get into it in just a moment.

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Speaker 2: A conversation with Shane Jones. Oh, at the end of

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Speaker 2: At the end of this, I'm going to insert a

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Speaker 2: commentary that pertains to the legal system, judicial activism, and

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Speaker 2: a few other things. But I think that you'll find

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Speaker 2: it interesting, just saying now after a short break, Shane Jones.

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Speaker 2: Buccerlan is a natural oral vaccine in a tablet form

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Speaker 2: called bacterial nice sate. It'll boost your natural protection against

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Speaker 2: bacterial infections in your chest and throat. A three day

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Speaker 2: course of seven Buckleland tablets will help your body build

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Speaker 2: up to three months of immunity against bugs which cause

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Speaker 2: bacterial cold symptoms. So who can take buccolan well the

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Speaker 2: whole family From two years of age and upwards. A

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Speaker 2: course of Bucklan tablets offers cost effective and safe protection

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Speaker 2: from colds and chill. Protection becomes effective a few days

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Speaker 2: after you take buccolin and lasts for up to three

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Speaker 2: months following the three day course. Buccolin can be taken

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Speaker 2: throughout the cold season, over winter or all the year round.

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Speaker 2: And remember Bucklin is not intended as an alternative to

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Speaker 2: influenza vaccination, but may be used along with the flu

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Speaker 2: vaccination for added protection. And keep in mind that millions

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Speaker 2: of doses have been taken by Kiwi's for over fifty years.

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Speaker 2: Only available from your pharmacist. Always read the label and

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Speaker 2: users directed and see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer

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Speaker 2: Broker Auckland Laton Smith Shane Jones is the Minister for

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Speaker 2: Oceans and Fisheries, Minister for Regional Development, Minister for Resources,

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Speaker 2: Associate Minister of Finance and Associate Minister for Energy. For

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Speaker 2: those who don't know, and there will be very few

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Speaker 2: of you, Mister Jones headed Parliament in two two thousand

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Speaker 2: and five with the Labor Party. He joined New Zealand

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Speaker 2: first as an MP in twenty seventeen. He was educated

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Speaker 2: rather well, they say, at Saint Stephen's and that has

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Speaker 2: completed degrees in universities in Wellington, West Australia and Harvard.

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Speaker 2: He's also held business and public sector leadership roles such

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Speaker 2: as Chairman of Sea Lord, our country's first spacific economic Ambassador,

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Speaker 2: member of Parliament and Minister in Government. He is also

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Speaker 2: the Deputy Leader of New Zealand First. We spoke with

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Speaker 2: you last year at this time and we're speaking again

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Speaker 2: because last year was so impactive I had the hope

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Speaker 2: of repeating it. Welcome back to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Hi greetings, folks.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much for enabling us to share a

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Speaker 4: few thoughts and observations about the year hit.

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Speaker 2: I think there are a few, quite a few. Let

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Speaker 2: me start by asking you what is the biggest challenge

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Speaker 2: this country is faced with at the moment, and if

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Speaker 2: you want you to have challenges two and three.

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Speaker 4: Well, Economically, I certainly believe that the cost of energy,

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Speaker 4: the cost of electricity, is stripping us of our competitiveness.

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Speaker 4: But behind the problem with electricity lies a deeper problem

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Speaker 4: that we've inherited a system that's not competitive. And also

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Speaker 4: we're still saddled with a system in New Zealand pertaining

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Speaker 4: to resource consents and other environmental permits that remains absolutely sluggish,

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Speaker 4: dominated by unelected grandees who never faced the consequences of

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Speaker 4: their constipated approach to facilitating resource development, unlike US politicians.

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Speaker 3: So that's first thing.

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Speaker 4: Second thing, ah, I don't know, maybe your listeners and

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Speaker 4: your audience don't agree, but I do see a big

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Speaker 4: problem with immigration in the sense that not only is

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Speaker 4: our infrastructure unable to cope with it, but our host

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Speaker 4: society have never been asked, how radically do you want

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Speaker 4: to change your population?

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Speaker 3: Who do you want to.

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Speaker 4: Come to New Zealand, after all, it's our country, and

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Speaker 4: who will stand up and ensure that the foundation culture,

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Speaker 4: the host nation culture, isn't radically changed or worsened as

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Speaker 4: a consequence of immigration that's not well managed in the

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Speaker 4: absence of US not having a population policy. I do

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Speaker 4: think my final point, I do think that the Prime

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Speaker 4: Bister and Erica Stamford are onto something when they focus

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Speaker 4: on the failings of our education system and how it's

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Speaker 4: been overtaken by an ideology where you don't really need

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Speaker 4: to perform and you can get necessary qualifications and come

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Speaker 4: out without the requisite standard of numeracy and literacy. And

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Speaker 4: it's particularly bad from the community that I come from.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the Maldi and i'd say also Pis

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Speaker 4: and that's very dangerous because you cannot consistently create a

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Speaker 4: pocket where the people are at the margin of society,

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Speaker 4: and they'll turn to pretty crude and dangerous ways to

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Speaker 4: make a go of life.

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Speaker 2: There are so many spinoffs from what you've just said.

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Speaker 2: Let me let me just try another approach, and not

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Speaker 2: because that one didn't work, but because I think it

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Speaker 2: fits in from nineteen to eighty to today when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the issues that you were discussing, particularly with

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Speaker 2: regard to your own lot. What's changed.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 4: I was born in nineteen fifty nine, I was in

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Speaker 4: my third year at university. In nineteen eighty, I was

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Speaker 4: a father and I just moved to Wellington. I think

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Speaker 4: that in terms of the Mildi community, some of the

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Speaker 4: biggest changes has been the degradation of the family unit,

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Speaker 4: an abandonment by too many men of their responsibilities, and

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Speaker 4: the ease of access to welfare. Now, of course, New

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Speaker 4: Zealand needs a system where there is a safety net,

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Speaker 4: and New Zealand First, the party I belong to, thoroughly

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Speaker 4: accepts that. But when you look at the stats of

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Speaker 4: the number of where the recipients of wealth here come from,

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Speaker 4: we've inherited a hell of a messmate, that's got worse

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Speaker 4: since nineteen eighty. And I don't fully buy in to

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Speaker 4: the explanation that the rogenomics experience of eighty four to

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Speaker 4: eighty seven, eighty seven to ninety ninety to ninety three

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Speaker 4: with ruthin Asia.

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Speaker 3: Sure that had a major disruptive effect, but.

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Speaker 4: A lot of values and a lot of attitudes and

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Speaker 4: sense of service and obligation and duty and collegiality, that

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Speaker 4: all starts at the kitchen table. It all starts inside

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Speaker 4: the place you call home. And in my view, there's

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Speaker 4: been a distortion of those foundation values that I grew

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Speaker 4: up with. And I don't accept that it's colonialism. I

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Speaker 4: don't accept that it's just the cause. The cause is

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Speaker 4: just to do a social media or whatever technological changes

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Speaker 4: are happening. It's more fundamental and that's part of why

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Speaker 4: New Zealand First, in my view, are doing reasonably well

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Speaker 4: in the minds of increasingly larger numbers of New Zealanders

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Speaker 4: because we're preaching service, we're preaching self responsibility. What the

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Speaker 4: hell's wrong with that?

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Speaker 2: There is nought wrong with that. I arrived in New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: as you know, in nineteen eighty. We were both in

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Speaker 2: Wellington at the same time. Was discovered sitting in the

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Speaker 2: same law class. Indeed, and you remember that I didn't.

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Speaker 4: But but and now tutor was a guy called Stephen Kosch.

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Speaker 3: Who went on to be a Supreme Court judge.

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Speaker 2: There you go. So the point I'm going to make

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Speaker 2: is that when I quit the microphone on a daily basis,

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Speaker 2: part of the driving factor for that was what I discovered.

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Speaker 2: But I got here in nineteen eighty and I was

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Speaker 2: brought over to I was important to start talk back

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Speaker 2: in Wellington. The things that were being discussed then are

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Speaker 2: still the same things in the same category that are

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Speaker 2: being discussed today. So all we do is go round

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Speaker 2: and round in circles and very little is resolved wrong

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Speaker 2: or right.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 4: I think each generation brings challenges forward. Let's face the

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Speaker 4: desk and always be some perennials. I sense of security,

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Speaker 4: I quality of life and relation to access to essential services,

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Speaker 4: whether it's health, education and housing. I'm sure that my parents' generation,

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Speaker 4: my grandparents generation, they all sort of made the best

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Speaker 4: decisions they could in relation to those issues.

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Speaker 3: But I do feel that with the ubiquity.

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Speaker 4: Of social media, the way in which people are now

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Speaker 4: developing sources of information often easily distorted. That is, I

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Speaker 4: would put to you that that is something different than

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Speaker 4: the times that you and I were at university.

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Speaker 3: They also.

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Speaker 4: The other challenges that I've noticed as I've grown a

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Speaker 4: bit older. There's the kind of expectations that each generation has,

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Speaker 4: Like I find with a lot of the younger ones

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Speaker 4: that I bump into the north who are coming into

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Speaker 4: positions of leadership. So everyone wants to go to the

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Speaker 4: top floor the penthouse of the sky City casino, but

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Speaker 4: they want to catch the elevator. No, sorry, you have

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Speaker 4: to go via the staircase and it's a long, hard slog.

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Speaker 4: So that's something that I have seen within multiculture, and

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Speaker 4: I like putting them in their place.

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Speaker 2: Seeing that you've mentioned Northland on more than one occasion,

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Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, so I will do

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Speaker 2: it now. Crime in Northland is well, give me a

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Speaker 2: ranking out of ten. How bad is it?

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Speaker 4: Ah? In some parts of North. It's shocking, it's at

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Speaker 4: least state, at least state of mind.

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Speaker 2: So I'm referring to somebody that we both are familiar with,

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Speaker 2: Dallas Gurney, who who was the manager of News Talks

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Speaker 2: at Beeper for some time, who retired and went with

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Speaker 2: his wife and bought the local store up north and

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Speaker 2: recently got beaten up by some thugs.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I saw that.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 2: How does that are?

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Speaker 3: You? Are you?

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Speaker 2: Do you have any idea what's followed on from that?

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Speaker 2: Has anybody been arrested? Anybody in charged?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a bloke was. A bloke was charged. He's been

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Speaker 4: taken to court. He's been given what do you call

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Speaker 4: it name suppression. I doubt if that's going to hold.

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Speaker 4: I think it was a case of of trunkenness, loutish behavior.

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Speaker 4: Sadly for him, it's spread all over social media. He's

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Speaker 4: been identified by people who know the far in a area.

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Speaker 3: Well. The kind of crime, though, that I'm referring to.

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Speaker 4: Is crime that threatens basic security, crime that leaves you

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Speaker 4: uncertain and almost fearful, and a lot of that is

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Speaker 4: driven by excessive bouts of drunk taking and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of it mate is kids maybe.

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Speaker 4: Between the age twelve thirteen, fourteen, fifteen sixteen, not under

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Speaker 4: parental control. If they are, the parents are even worse

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Speaker 4: than the kids, and they are turning into a pack

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Speaker 4: of very dangerous young thieves who, when confronted, turn very feral,

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Speaker 4: very quickly. And what to do with them because they've

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Speaker 4: come from a set of circumstances where the boundaries or

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Speaker 4: the structure hasn't been robust, and they're out there creating mayhem,

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Speaker 4: easily influenced by men and women slightly older than them.

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Speaker 4: So that's a small example of what I'm trying to

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Speaker 4: describe to you in relation to warrying Quran. Because they're

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Speaker 4: so young and they're going to take a howl of

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Speaker 4: a long time to grow out that type of behavior.

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Speaker 2: So my suggestion is that they've developed from the beginning

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Speaker 2: to a greater level, shall we say, of criminal activity,

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Speaker 2: because they weren't apprehended and dealt with appropriately the first time.

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Speaker 4: That's partly true, but also they've come from a petri

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Speaker 4: dish where that type of behavior is deemed to be

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Speaker 4: acceptable or it's a behavior spawned in a sense of desperation.

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Speaker 4: So I don't care for it. Look, I've a perfect

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Speaker 4: sort of paragon ourself. But between Dot and I we

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Speaker 4: have eight kids. And sure we have you ups and

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Speaker 4: downs with your children, but my dad was one of

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Speaker 4: seventeen children.

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Speaker 3: None of them went to jail.

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Speaker 4: There's a classic mix of the Delhi Marii and a

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Speaker 4: bit of Welsh and we'll work the land and whatnot.

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Speaker 4: And there's nothing wrong with us extolling those foundational values

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Speaker 4: and consistently reminding society or the institutions that we rely

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Speaker 4: on society to bold and change and improve attitudes that

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Speaker 4: these are our expectations.

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Speaker 2: So how long can you keep the lights on in

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Speaker 2: the northern part?

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Speaker 4: Well, we've got to continue to see. You raise a

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Speaker 4: damn good question there. Do we as a society say, look,

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Speaker 4: the market can't fix the problem. Therefore what we'll do

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Speaker 4: is will sustain communities at a kind of subsistence level

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Speaker 4: through welfare or whatnot? Or do we join up as

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Speaker 4: I've been doing and not always successfully, but putting money

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Speaker 4: into certain regions of New Zealand to engender greatest sense

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Speaker 4: of hope, gives them options and ensure that we don't

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Speaker 4: continually have parts in New Zealand that are in perpetual deficit,

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Speaker 4: whether it's the quality of infrastructure, the attitudes of the people,

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Speaker 4: or the declining quality of the services they receive, including schools.

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Speaker 4: So for me, one of the reasons why I've supported

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Speaker 4: Winston and come into public life after having left for

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Speaker 4: a while is to effect those sorts of changes. And hey,

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Speaker 4: I'll do my bit, others will trot along and do

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Speaker 4: their bit. And in my view, if we as a

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Speaker 4: country and as a government turn our backs on certain

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Speaker 4: parts of New Zealand, we're just going to breed a

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Speaker 4: living of dysfunctionalism that will make the places virtually uninhabitable.

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Speaker 2: What's your degree of success do you think in what

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Speaker 2: you've just described.

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Speaker 4: Well, in a number of areas it's been very very successful,

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Speaker 4: certainly in respect of infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm the.

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Speaker 4: Guy who found the money to roll out better electronic connectivity.

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Speaker 4: I'm the guy who found the money to upgrade, for example,

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Speaker 4: in a lot of isolated areas m I and they

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Speaker 4: are the only in many cases institutions that can offer

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Speaker 4: a place of refuge when these wretched weather events happen.

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Speaker 4: But also put a lot of money into genuine marine

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Speaker 4: infrastructure and that will last thirty forty years around about

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Speaker 4: stop banks. I mean, I actually I'm a doubting thomasows

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Speaker 4: Well shrill voices about climate change. The best thing we

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Speaker 4: can do assist invest in adapting to cope with mother Nature.

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Speaker 4: And the two hundred million dollars it went into stock banks,

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Speaker 4: it's reduced its strengthened the ability of people to still

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Speaker 4: get insurance. Now it sounds very boring, but for a

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Speaker 4: chap who grew up on the land, on a farm

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Speaker 4: next to a river that had a massive stock bank,

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Speaker 4: it's very important.

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Speaker 2: So one of your goals is to provide affordable, reliable

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Speaker 2: and clean energy, which means essentially electricity. What's standing in

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Speaker 2: what's standing in the country's way of achieving that in

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Speaker 2: a hurry.

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Speaker 4: Well, the gent tailors are, in my view, not competitive.

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Speaker 4: They're so powerful in New Zealand's economy and they have

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Speaker 4: such powerful lobbing influence that they can change the attitudes

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Speaker 4: of politicians or change the direction of travel, which is

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Speaker 4: why I'm going to campaign aggressively that they be broken up.

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Speaker 3: That's the first thing.

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Speaker 4: I have not hidden this from anyone, because unless in

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Speaker 4: nation has an affordable.

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Speaker 3: Level of energy, then you don't have an economic plan.

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Speaker 4: I do think, however, that we've inherited a system Laton

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Speaker 4: where it's I don't know, it's sort of shrouded in

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Speaker 4: no culture, and rather than pick up the approach that

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Speaker 4: my dad's generation had. We're sure they didn't get everything right. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: sure some of the environmental effects they were.

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Speaker 3: Excessive, but they built the country.

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Speaker 4: And nowadays we've got the ability to deliver mitigating, mitigative

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Speaker 4: measures that cope with the way in which we interact

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Speaker 4: and change the environment. And I'm such a powerful supporter

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Speaker 4: of mining, but we've got to continue to dismantle this

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Speaker 4: no culture totally.

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Speaker 3: Enough.

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Speaker 2: Somebody said to me only yesterday, because everybody's discussing it,

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Speaker 2: and I'll expand on that in a minute, but somebody

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Speaker 2: said to me yesterday the reason that Southland is worthy

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Speaker 2: of visiting is because of gold in the first place.

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Speaker 2: It opened it up, provided jobs, provided wealth, and it

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Speaker 2: is what it is today. Correct, Absolutely, Dunedin as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean the Scottish people there developed a fine philanthropic.

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Speaker 4: Tradition, but a lot of that came from using the

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Speaker 4: natural resources. And I'm looking forward to the debate I'm

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Speaker 4: having with Ian Taylor. Syrian Taylor I'm astounded by monster

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Speaker 4: jump into the boxing ring with me and debate whether

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Speaker 4: or not gold mining should be tolerated in Otago or

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Speaker 4: in New Zealand. The reality is made. We're up against

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Speaker 4: an ideological hardwired, a group of people who hold positions

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Speaker 4: of influence in New Zealand, who while to consistently drink

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Speaker 4: the fiscal milk, but never buy the cow.

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Speaker 2: It's intriguing.

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Speaker 3: I have.

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Speaker 2: A great interest in gold, and when I say a

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Speaker 2: great interest, I don't mean financially so much. I just

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Speaker 2: mean I latched on silver back in nineteen eighty three

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Speaker 2: and I've been interested in it ever since. The reason

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Speaker 2: that it's fascinating now is spoken by the market, and

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Speaker 2: it's patently obvious that gold is a very valuable item,

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Speaker 2: and I believe it'll stay that way. And I wondered,

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Speaker 2: for instance, whether this country might not have enough gold

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Speaker 2: underground that could be mined and could make this country independent,

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Speaker 2: specifically by a gold backed currency.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you're not the first person to have made that observation.

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Speaker 4: And I'm assured by the geologists, arm the investors, and

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Speaker 4: the other executives leading this gold renaissance that we have

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Speaker 4: an enormous lead deep and rich endowment, not only of.

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Speaker 3: Gold, but a host of other minerals.

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Speaker 4: And it's like I told you, for the last thirty

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Speaker 4: odd years, it's been marginalized and you've been canceled if

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Speaker 4: you're a promoter of gold, or promoter of coal, or

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Speaker 4: promoter of minerals. And the allegation you face is that

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Speaker 4: you're crippling in a sort of irreparable way the landscape. Well, hello,

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Speaker 4: for those of you in Otago who farm, who have vineyards,

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Speaker 4: you have an effect on the environment, and stop catastrophizing

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Speaker 4: the existence of gold operations.

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Speaker 3: Because creates jobs. It's a store of value, and it's.

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Speaker 4: Also the basis upon which the whole industry technically speaking,

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Speaker 4: human capital wise, can be expanded, grown, and it can

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Speaker 4: be applied to other types of minerals after that.

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Speaker 2: All right, So the rush job that's been created, the

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Speaker 2: rush to success, which isn't quite oddly, which isn't quite

380
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Speaker 2: working as well as one anticipated, brings me to Taranaki

381
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Speaker 2: and Transit has been resources. It just so happened. I

382
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Speaker 2: was in I was in Sydney when the news came

383
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Speaker 2: that the application by Transit has been resources to mind

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Speaker 2: the sands of Taranaki had been rejected or was going

385
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Speaker 2: to be rejected. It was established and there seems to

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Speaker 2: be a war going on with regard to whether that's

387
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Speaker 2: right or wrong. Now. I interviewed Alan Eggers last July.

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Speaker 2: I'd never heard of him, I'd never heard of TTR,

389
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Speaker 2: but I came across the story that was a current

390
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Speaker 2: at the time, which is still current, where he was

391
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Speaker 2: being and the company was being stymied. So because I

392
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Speaker 2: still had his phone on his number on my phone,

393
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Speaker 2: I made a call and had a good conversation with him.

394
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Speaker 2: They're not giving up. But what's what has taken place,

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Speaker 2: and I discovered this during the interview, is that this

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Speaker 2: seems to me to be a and I've got to

397
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Speaker 2: be careful when I say this, I don't mean the

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Speaker 2: financial corruption, but a corruption of some kind in operation

399
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Speaker 2: in this particular case, if not in others that are

400
00:27:01,253 --> 00:27:09,253
Speaker 2: being rejected. Comment well, obviously the process is still unfolding,

401
00:27:09,293 --> 00:27:13,773
Speaker 2: and there's a draft decision out, but there's a more

402
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Speaker 2: fundamental point. At a time where the world is calling

403
00:27:19,093 --> 00:27:24,413
Speaker 2: out for critical minerals, rare earth minerals, we have a

404
00:27:24,613 --> 00:27:30,213
Speaker 2: figuratively speaking Sahara desert scale resource off the west coast

405
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Speaker 2: of the North Island called iron sands, and in those

406
00:27:33,413 --> 00:27:38,173
Speaker 2: iron sands is vanadium and titanium and other important minerals.

407
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Speaker 2: So it's quite dichotomous that we've got the panel that

408
00:27:45,573 --> 00:27:51,573
Speaker 2: appears to have rejected his proposal, whilst we've got the

409
00:27:51,653 --> 00:28:00,253
Speaker 2: momentum amongst our fellow minded nations heading towards more development, more.

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Speaker 3: Utilization, more reliance.

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Speaker 4: And this is what I say, who ought to make

412
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Speaker 4: those trade offs? Should it be elected politicians or obscure

413
00:28:12,533 --> 00:28:18,373
Speaker 4: individuals appointed under law to make a call whether a

414
00:28:18,453 --> 00:28:23,053
Speaker 4: project represents a positive contribution to the regional interest or

415
00:28:23,053 --> 00:28:28,013
Speaker 4: the national interest, how to manage the risks, how to

416
00:28:28,093 --> 00:28:33,773
Speaker 4: cope with the mitigating measures, and how to make a

417
00:28:33,813 --> 00:28:38,133
Speaker 4: decision where you're always going to have to take account

418
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Speaker 4: and manage risk. So you know, I came off second best.

419
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Speaker 4: And it's been my view for a long time that

420
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Speaker 4: New Zealand's better served by having those decisions made by politicians.

421
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Speaker 4: Now that's not the current status, and I accept that

422
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Speaker 4: because I'm willing to live by the collective responsibilities of cabinet.

423
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Speaker 4: But once we start campaigning, it's more than reasonable for

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Speaker 4: these ideas to be put in front.

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Speaker 2: Of kiwis So the Climate Justice Taranaki, which has been

426
00:29:09,493 --> 00:29:14,093
Speaker 2: in operation for some considerable time. I think I found

427
00:29:14,093 --> 00:29:17,853
Speaker 2: my way to their list. I didn't apply, but I

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00:29:17,933 --> 00:29:23,213
Speaker 2: get their mail. And this came out last week following

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Speaker 2: the Prime Minister's comments about do we want this mining

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Speaker 2: in the country. Absolutely, yes we do. He said, want

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Speaker 2: a critical minerals sector and went on to explain why so.

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Speaker 2: The response was Climate Justice Taranaki do not agree. No,

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Speaker 2: we don't want a critical mineral sector here in aa

434
00:29:45,653 --> 00:29:48,773
Speaker 2: Heiro and New Zealand. We are this little country at

435
00:29:48,773 --> 00:29:51,013
Speaker 2: the bottom of the world. Our natural assets are our

436
00:29:51,093 --> 00:29:55,533
Speaker 2: unique ecosystems and remnant forests, wetlands, indigenous species and wild oceans.

437
00:29:56,453 --> 00:29:59,773
Speaker 2: As has happened repeatedly thanks to brutal self interest, typically

438
00:29:59,813 --> 00:30:04,813
Speaker 2: of foreign firms, mining will destroy these and the clean

439
00:30:04,853 --> 00:30:08,173
Speaker 2: waterways and land that we Mari and Pakia depend on

440
00:30:08,413 --> 00:30:14,613
Speaker 2: for well being and a sustainable economy. I think that

441
00:30:14,733 --> 00:30:18,373
Speaker 2: the opening sentence was really all that mattered. No, we

442
00:30:18,453 --> 00:30:21,733
Speaker 2: don't want a critical mineral sector here. That's that go off,

443
00:30:23,173 --> 00:30:26,173
Speaker 2: and so they have. They have formulated their approach with

444
00:30:26,333 --> 00:30:30,653
Speaker 2: support from some pretty high places. Ever since.

445
00:30:32,733 --> 00:30:38,453
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that that ideology, that analysis, that narrative

446
00:30:39,533 --> 00:30:45,253
Speaker 4: has ruled the country, certainly during Cinder's time. I mean

447
00:30:45,373 --> 00:30:47,573
Speaker 4: that's partly what drove her to cancel the oil and

448
00:30:47,613 --> 00:30:51,333
Speaker 4: gas industry. I think it was encouraged in Helen's time

449
00:30:51,373 --> 00:30:56,933
Speaker 4: as well, and mister Key he never really challenged it.

450
00:30:58,373 --> 00:31:02,013
Speaker 4: And it's a it's a long term mission of mine

451
00:31:02,773 --> 00:31:09,613
Speaker 4: to not only correct that perspective, but to distill an

452
00:31:09,653 --> 00:31:14,053
Speaker 4: alternative view which is far more pragmatic than that dogmatic

453
00:31:14,133 --> 00:31:18,373
Speaker 4: view that the garden of Eden is how we should

454
00:31:18,373 --> 00:31:22,173
Speaker 4: live with no thought to GDP, no thought to employment,

455
00:31:23,093 --> 00:31:27,933
Speaker 4: is zero consideration as to how do you actually invest

456
00:31:28,093 --> 00:31:33,493
Speaker 4: and get a return on investment. So I don't underestimate, mate,

457
00:31:33,653 --> 00:31:39,853
Speaker 4: how deeply baked in those ideological perspectives are. Probably one

458
00:31:39,893 --> 00:31:42,333
Speaker 4: of the things that has set me on my normal,

459
00:31:42,493 --> 00:31:47,173
Speaker 4: my rear end whilst I've been running around extolling the

460
00:31:47,293 --> 00:31:53,213
Speaker 4: virtues of the natural resource exploitative sector, is how deeply

461
00:31:55,133 --> 00:32:01,253
Speaker 4: those found that those ideological foundations now run in not

462
00:32:01,293 --> 00:32:05,013
Speaker 4: only in the younger generation, but throughout corporate New Zealand

463
00:32:05,053 --> 00:32:08,173
Speaker 4: as well. I mean corporate New Zealand is brought into

464
00:32:08,853 --> 00:32:12,573
Speaker 4: all of this climate hysteria the point that we've had

465
00:32:12,573 --> 00:32:15,773
Speaker 4: to unwind, for example, a number of the reporting obligations

466
00:32:15,773 --> 00:32:21,053
Speaker 4: put in place by Desinder, where firms are deluged and

467
00:32:21,173 --> 00:32:24,933
Speaker 4: burdened with all sorts of reporting obligations as to how

468
00:32:25,013 --> 00:32:29,373
Speaker 4: they're ruining the planet. Firms exist, from my perspective, to

469
00:32:29,533 --> 00:32:33,213
Speaker 4: operate within the law and go away, employ people and

470
00:32:33,293 --> 00:32:38,213
Speaker 4: generate profit and leave law making or law interpretation to

471
00:32:38,333 --> 00:32:43,813
Speaker 4: those who are endowed with that responsibility.

472
00:32:44,453 --> 00:32:49,213
Speaker 2: Are you taking into account judicial activism?

473
00:32:49,613 --> 00:32:55,053
Speaker 4: Yes, well we yeah, I mean we in the area

474
00:32:55,133 --> 00:32:59,573
Speaker 4: of the Treaty of White Tongue. Obviously, we've seen increasingly

475
00:32:59,693 --> 00:33:05,013
Speaker 4: difficult interpretations visited upon the treaty and governments and officials

476
00:33:05,053 --> 00:33:07,293
Speaker 4: and others struggle to make any sense out of it.

477
00:33:07,333 --> 00:33:09,293
Speaker 4: So it's one good thing. The Prime Minister did say

478
00:33:09,333 --> 00:33:11,973
Speaker 4: while he's up at White Honey. He was very simple.

479
00:33:12,053 --> 00:33:17,173
Speaker 4: He said, the treaty means we're governing, there is scope

480
00:33:17,733 --> 00:33:23,173
Speaker 4: for local autonomy, and we're all bound together by a

481
00:33:23,253 --> 00:33:27,053
Speaker 4: common set of civic rights and obligations.

482
00:33:27,093 --> 00:33:28,573
Speaker 3: That's all we need to know. It's all we need

483
00:33:28,613 --> 00:33:28,813
Speaker 3: to know.

484
00:33:28,933 --> 00:33:32,333
Speaker 4: We don't need any more Treaty of White Hongey references

485
00:33:32,373 --> 00:33:37,893
Speaker 4: scattered through statutes. We don't need any more tedious dissertations

486
00:33:37,893 --> 00:33:39,293
Speaker 4: from the White Tongue tribunal.

487
00:33:39,613 --> 00:33:41,133
Speaker 3: We need to go back to the basics.

488
00:33:41,133 --> 00:33:43,773
Speaker 4: And Winston has always said that, which is why he's

489
00:33:43,893 --> 00:33:48,373
Speaker 4: railed against the existence of these normative prescriptive measures known

490
00:33:48,453 --> 00:33:49,453
Speaker 4: as principles.

491
00:33:50,813 --> 00:33:54,013
Speaker 2: So let's sidebar just for a moment. Having mentioned Winston,

492
00:33:55,373 --> 00:33:58,173
Speaker 2: he's is he eighty eight or about to turn Yeah?

493
00:33:58,213 --> 00:34:00,133
Speaker 3: No, he is born in nineteen forty five.

494
00:34:00,413 --> 00:34:03,533
Speaker 2: Yes, how long do you think he's got as leader

495
00:34:03,533 --> 00:34:08,453
Speaker 2: of New Zealand first for as long as he wants it. Well,

496
00:34:08,493 --> 00:34:12,293
Speaker 2: he's got to be around to want it, Okay, So

497
00:34:13,253 --> 00:34:17,693
Speaker 2: he will retain that position, and I'm not trying to

498
00:34:18,013 --> 00:34:20,493
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to allude to anything. He'll retain that

499
00:34:20,533 --> 00:34:24,613
Speaker 2: position after the election, Yeah, definitely, but it stands to

500
00:34:24,693 --> 00:34:29,533
Speaker 2: reason that at some stage a change will be made.

501
00:34:29,853 --> 00:34:32,853
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, he's certainly under no pressure from anyone in

502
00:34:32,973 --> 00:34:36,373
Speaker 4: our caucus or our party to retire from the field

503
00:34:36,373 --> 00:34:44,413
Speaker 4: of play. He's so well versed not only in politics

504
00:34:44,453 --> 00:34:49,293
Speaker 4: but judgment and give the guys, some Jews his respect.

505
00:34:49,373 --> 00:34:52,573
Speaker 4: He first stood in nineteen seventy five, then he became

506
00:34:52,613 --> 00:34:55,413
Speaker 4: a politician in nineteen seventy eight, that he's sort of

507
00:34:55,413 --> 00:34:58,013
Speaker 4: been in and out depending on the vagaries of the electorate.

508
00:34:59,013 --> 00:35:05,653
Speaker 4: And I'm not going to place too much reliance on

509
00:35:05,733 --> 00:35:10,133
Speaker 4: the current polls, but we seem to be resonating and

510
00:35:10,173 --> 00:35:15,053
Speaker 4: he in particular is growing in popularity. Every pole that

511
00:35:15,373 --> 00:35:20,613
Speaker 4: is taken as popularity continues to grow into the double figures.

512
00:35:20,733 --> 00:35:22,373
Speaker 3: So that's positive.

513
00:35:22,613 --> 00:35:26,933
Speaker 4: That's an example of why our party needs them to

514
00:35:26,973 --> 00:35:27,533
Speaker 4: hang around.

515
00:35:28,173 --> 00:35:28,933
Speaker 3: And he.

516
00:35:31,093 --> 00:35:34,453
Speaker 4: Definitely has struck a court with more and more Kiwis.

517
00:35:34,613 --> 00:35:38,053
Speaker 4: As we face the various uncertainties driven by not only

518
00:35:38,093 --> 00:35:40,173
Speaker 4: international geopolitics.

519
00:35:39,493 --> 00:35:41,333
Speaker 3: But our society is going through a transition.

520
00:35:41,893 --> 00:35:46,013
Speaker 4: There's a lot of angst, there's a lot of apprehension

521
00:35:46,053 --> 00:35:48,773
Speaker 4: and uncertainty, mate, And if you doubt that, just have

522
00:35:48,813 --> 00:35:51,093
Speaker 4: a look at how divided the country are is in

523
00:35:51,173 --> 00:35:51,613
Speaker 4: terms of.

524
00:35:51,653 --> 00:35:57,013
Speaker 2: Poles indeed, and you might then extend the conversation to

525
00:35:57,733 --> 00:36:03,133
Speaker 2: Australia and suggests that both countries are going through a

526
00:36:03,253 --> 00:36:04,093
Speaker 2: very difficult time.

527
00:36:05,973 --> 00:36:09,453
Speaker 4: Yeah. I go over to Australia on a semi regular

528
00:36:09,493 --> 00:36:12,373
Speaker 4: basis and I often get interviewed over there, and I've

529
00:36:12,413 --> 00:36:18,733
Speaker 4: been allowed to participate in the radio show formerly hosted

530
00:36:18,773 --> 00:36:21,213
Speaker 4: by Alan Jones, the well known.

531
00:36:22,533 --> 00:36:24,013
Speaker 3: Shop jock over there in.

532
00:36:23,973 --> 00:36:29,653
Speaker 4: The past, and Mate, their challenges are on another scale

533
00:36:29,693 --> 00:36:33,893
Speaker 4: when you think about what's happened with their demography. They've

534
00:36:33,973 --> 00:36:36,573
Speaker 4: obviously signed up a long time ago to the creed

535
00:36:36,613 --> 00:36:37,853
Speaker 4: of multiculturalism.

536
00:36:38,933 --> 00:36:40,973
Speaker 3: We need to be watching that here in New Zealand,

537
00:36:41,013 --> 00:36:41,573
Speaker 3: and we need to.

538
00:36:41,613 --> 00:36:47,133
Speaker 4: Ensure that the culture which defines our host society is

539
00:36:47,173 --> 00:36:52,973
Speaker 4: not driven either out of existence or undermined to suit

540
00:36:53,013 --> 00:36:55,053
Speaker 4: the priorities of new migrants.

541
00:36:55,133 --> 00:36:57,093
Speaker 3: We're not having that when in Rome you do as

542
00:36:57,093 --> 00:36:57,853
Speaker 3: the Romans.

543
00:36:57,573 --> 00:37:01,893
Speaker 2: Do, and that's the line that's being expressed at the

544
00:37:01,893 --> 00:37:05,453
Speaker 2: moment across the Tasman quite right now, okay, by some,

545
00:37:06,453 --> 00:37:11,613
Speaker 2: only by some, all right. The number the numbers that

546
00:37:11,653 --> 00:37:15,413
Speaker 2: have poured in over there are ginormous, but we have

547
00:37:16,973 --> 00:37:21,813
Speaker 2: probably per capita and not too dissimilar situation.

548
00:37:21,493 --> 00:37:28,413
Speaker 4: Here, yes, yes, well, obviously the pressure point at the moment,

549
00:37:28,973 --> 00:37:33,253
Speaker 4: it's on the front page of the Herald, is the

550
00:37:33,293 --> 00:37:39,053
Speaker 4: immigration provisions in the upcoming India Free Trade Deal, which

551
00:37:39,093 --> 00:37:41,173
Speaker 4: our leader Winston says we'll not be backing.

552
00:37:42,293 --> 00:37:46,013
Speaker 3: And obviously the.

553
00:37:44,973 --> 00:37:47,453
Speaker 4: New Zealand Herald has had a look at the detail

554
00:37:47,773 --> 00:37:53,093
Speaker 4: of this agreement and it's it's inconsistent with what our

555
00:37:53,133 --> 00:37:56,093
Speaker 4: party represents. We are not having a situation where you

556
00:37:56,133 --> 00:38:00,493
Speaker 4: can fast track another two three four, five hundred thousand

557
00:38:01,533 --> 00:38:03,853
Speaker 4: people from India to come to New Zealand, which is

558
00:38:03,893 --> 00:38:05,373
Speaker 4: not having it.

559
00:38:05,373 --> 00:38:08,693
Speaker 2: It's not a racist thing, it's a culture.

560
00:38:08,693 --> 00:38:13,733
Speaker 4: I don't care if I sound fascist. I'm a Dahi marian.

561
00:38:13,773 --> 00:38:16,173
Speaker 4: I can say what the hell I like about the heritage.

562
00:38:15,733 --> 00:38:16,373
Speaker 3: Of my country.

563
00:38:16,493 --> 00:38:20,613
Speaker 2: Well, you can hear it's it's not that at all.

564
00:38:20,853 --> 00:38:23,773
Speaker 2: It's that it is. It took me a while to

565
00:38:23,813 --> 00:38:26,933
Speaker 2: realize it that it is a cultural thing that causes

566
00:38:26,933 --> 00:38:28,733
Speaker 2: the problems, not a racial thing.

567
00:38:29,613 --> 00:38:30,493
Speaker 3: Correct, Correct?

568
00:38:30,933 --> 00:38:34,813
Speaker 2: And you know all the Indians I know, whether they're

569
00:38:34,853 --> 00:38:39,733
Speaker 2: driving cars to the airport or whatever they're doing, they're

570
00:38:40,213 --> 00:38:43,853
Speaker 2: they're all pretty fine people. That's my experience anyway.

571
00:38:44,413 --> 00:38:44,613
Speaker 3: Yeah.

572
00:38:44,653 --> 00:38:48,413
Speaker 4: But if you want to substantially change the character of

573
00:38:48,453 --> 00:38:54,813
Speaker 4: your country, if you want to re reform the population

574
00:38:54,933 --> 00:38:58,733
Speaker 4: of your country, go and campaign on it. Don't ask Kiwis,

575
00:38:58,813 --> 00:39:01,333
Speaker 4: well what do you want for a population policy? How

576
00:39:01,373 --> 00:39:03,693
Speaker 4: many people do you want living here? How can we

577
00:39:03,733 --> 00:39:07,093
Speaker 4: afford the infrastructure? Pretty basic questions. They always get canceled,

578
00:39:07,133 --> 00:39:10,493
Speaker 4: though in relation to people like my good self being

579
00:39:10,533 --> 00:39:13,413
Speaker 4: dismissed as a as a sort of luddite or some

580
00:39:13,573 --> 00:39:18,693
Speaker 4: fascist prejudice. Get mate, I look forward to the selection campaign.

581
00:39:20,493 --> 00:39:26,013
Speaker 2: I have nothing to say except I'm looking forward to it. Also,

582
00:39:27,213 --> 00:39:29,773
Speaker 2: you mentioned something earlier on with regard to who should

583
00:39:29,813 --> 00:39:40,493
Speaker 2: make the decisions politicians or bureaucrats. Right on that basis,

584
00:39:41,533 --> 00:39:45,493
Speaker 2: where does MB stand as far as New Zealand first

585
00:39:45,573 --> 00:39:46,573
Speaker 2: is concerned.

586
00:39:48,653 --> 00:39:50,973
Speaker 3: MB the government department that one.

587
00:39:51,853 --> 00:39:54,853
Speaker 4: Yeah, well there's it's an amalgam.

588
00:39:54,893 --> 00:39:56,493
Speaker 3: It's huge, It's bigger than Ben her.

589
00:39:59,093 --> 00:40:03,213
Speaker 4: I think as a politician, you've got to stamp your authority.

590
00:40:04,333 --> 00:40:08,813
Speaker 4: Don't do it in a way that creates a us

591
00:40:08,933 --> 00:40:11,733
Speaker 4: situation of the bureaucracy. But providing they know there's a

592
00:40:11,773 --> 00:40:14,613
Speaker 4: clear line of accountability, there's a clear line of sight.

593
00:40:16,213 --> 00:40:19,653
Speaker 4: We don't, sadly in New Zealand, have the ability to

594
00:40:19,813 --> 00:40:23,853
Speaker 4: require CEOs and government departments to tender their resignation every

595
00:40:23,893 --> 00:40:27,373
Speaker 4: time a government changes. Now, in Australia you've partially got that.

596
00:40:28,453 --> 00:40:32,173
Speaker 4: In America you've got it in spades. So that's something

597
00:40:32,213 --> 00:40:36,733
Speaker 4: that I'm going to take to our party conference to ensure.

598
00:40:37,813 --> 00:40:42,293
Speaker 3: That the bureaucracy.

599
00:40:41,213 --> 00:40:46,293
Speaker 4: Doesn't become a block to what an elected government wants

600
00:40:46,333 --> 00:40:52,053
Speaker 4: to do in my small area of regional development and

601
00:40:52,133 --> 00:40:55,853
Speaker 4: fisheries and whatnot. I think it's fair to say that

602
00:40:56,613 --> 00:41:02,133
Speaker 4: they're by and large followed and delivered what we campaigned on,

603
00:41:02,573 --> 00:41:06,293
Speaker 4: but in matters of environmental law and such areas are

604
00:41:06,373 --> 00:41:10,013
Speaker 4: not in control of it. It just is so frustrating

605
00:41:10,453 --> 00:41:14,413
Speaker 4: that at a time where we should be turbocharging the

606
00:41:14,453 --> 00:41:18,653
Speaker 4: growth of our primary sector, the growth of our minerals

607
00:41:19,053 --> 00:41:21,333
Speaker 4: in a variety of other things, that takes so long

608
00:41:21,413 --> 00:41:23,533
Speaker 4: to get the permission space sorted out.

609
00:41:24,013 --> 00:41:30,253
Speaker 2: You mentioned, you mentioned earlier business big business, and it's

610
00:41:30,333 --> 00:41:35,813
Speaker 2: latching on to the catchphrase of the time, woke climate,

611
00:41:36,133 --> 00:41:41,973
Speaker 2: other matters. There's another story at the moment that I

612
00:41:42,013 --> 00:41:45,973
Speaker 2: only just became aware of since coming back, and that

613
00:41:46,693 --> 00:41:52,733
Speaker 2: revolves around the Reserve Bank and New Zealand Post. Oh yeah,

614
00:41:52,773 --> 00:41:53,333
Speaker 2: are you with me?

615
00:41:54,493 --> 00:41:54,693
Speaker 3: Yeah?

616
00:41:54,733 --> 00:41:58,333
Speaker 4: Well, I've got my head around the Reserve Bank, and

617
00:41:58,613 --> 00:42:03,453
Speaker 4: Winston clearly told that lady, the Scandinavian lady, that stick

618
00:42:03,493 --> 00:42:07,253
Speaker 4: to your lane. Your job is to study the abacus,

619
00:42:08,453 --> 00:42:10,973
Speaker 4: not a pine on geopolitical metas.

620
00:42:11,613 --> 00:42:14,973
Speaker 2: So, for those that don't know, this is about a

621
00:42:15,013 --> 00:42:20,493
Speaker 2: New Zealand Post in conjunction with others wanting to produce

622
00:42:20,573 --> 00:42:25,773
Speaker 2: and sell a one ounce gold coin, as they do

623
00:42:25,853 --> 00:42:28,653
Speaker 2: in other parts of the world, South Africa, in Canada,

624
00:42:29,093 --> 00:42:33,133
Speaker 2: America's got its got its own and this has been

625
00:42:33,213 --> 00:42:36,493
Speaker 2: knocked on the head by the Reserve Bank. Why do

626
00:42:36,573 --> 00:42:37,573
Speaker 2: they have the power for that.

627
00:42:39,453 --> 00:42:45,453
Speaker 4: Well, they have exclusive authority over currency, and I can't

628
00:42:45,573 --> 00:42:49,053
Speaker 4: exactly tell you why they would have snuffed out the

629
00:42:49,093 --> 00:42:53,893
Speaker 4: prospect of creating a gold coin. I'm quite excited by

630
00:42:53,893 --> 00:42:57,253
Speaker 4: the prospect of one day owning one myself. Of course,

631
00:42:57,333 --> 00:42:59,573
Speaker 4: one would need to have a different career than a politician.

632
00:42:59,653 --> 00:43:03,933
Speaker 2: Well that's not true, because my understanding is that the

633
00:43:03,933 --> 00:43:06,533
Speaker 2: price of it would be one hundred dollars.

634
00:43:08,413 --> 00:43:11,733
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, Okay, Well, perhaps they're worried that it's

635
00:43:11,733 --> 00:43:16,613
Speaker 4: a competing form of currency monetary value. I'm not sure, mate,

636
00:43:17,173 --> 00:43:20,093
Speaker 4: But now that you've part called my curiosity, I shall

637
00:43:20,133 --> 00:43:22,813
Speaker 4: go and find out. Well, I am about to go

638
00:43:23,013 --> 00:43:25,253
Speaker 4: at ten to two to question.

639
00:43:25,093 --> 00:43:26,973
Speaker 3: Time in our New Zealand Parliament.

640
00:43:27,893 --> 00:43:33,653
Speaker 4: I shall make an appropriate impact and pluck the weeds

641
00:43:33,653 --> 00:43:35,253
Speaker 4: out of the vineyard of democracy.

642
00:43:36,293 --> 00:43:41,893
Speaker 2: So you're off, you're dumping me, and I'm in a

643
00:43:41,893 --> 00:43:46,413
Speaker 2: position now to go and watch which is something I

644
00:43:46,493 --> 00:43:49,613
Speaker 2: really do, but I did. I did I have to

645
00:43:49,653 --> 00:43:54,653
Speaker 2: say sit through your speech that you recently made. Oh,

646
00:43:54,693 --> 00:43:58,173
Speaker 2: thank you very much, and well there are things I'd

647
00:43:58,173 --> 00:44:01,653
Speaker 2: say about it, but I don't have time.

648
00:44:03,173 --> 00:44:07,293
Speaker 3: Yeah, I tend to just ll not speak off the cut.

649
00:44:07,293 --> 00:44:09,733
Speaker 4: Hey, I'm six or six year years old, been in

650
00:44:09,813 --> 00:44:12,933
Speaker 4: business and raised a family and lived in a community

651
00:44:12,973 --> 00:44:15,893
Speaker 4: in the Far North and had reasonable education. If I

652
00:44:15,933 --> 00:44:18,693
Speaker 4: can't stand up and talk coherently for ten minutes, then

653
00:44:19,013 --> 00:44:20,493
Speaker 4: I'm definitely without notes.

654
00:44:20,533 --> 00:44:22,013
Speaker 3: Then I'm definitely in the wrong career.

655
00:44:23,413 --> 00:44:27,133
Speaker 2: So once again, thank you. I can only say that

656
00:44:27,813 --> 00:44:32,533
Speaker 2: I expect some very positive male and I look forward

657
00:44:32,573 --> 00:44:35,053
Speaker 2: to next time because we'll have one before the election.

658
00:44:36,013 --> 00:44:41,253
Speaker 4: I much appreciate later in you providing me the opportunity.

659
00:44:41,493 --> 00:44:44,133
Speaker 3: And you still have your distinctive.

660
00:44:45,093 --> 00:44:48,373
Speaker 4: Tone, the distinctive tone in your voice that I recall

661
00:44:48,573 --> 00:44:52,493
Speaker 4: at nineteen eighty when I first bumpedn't you at a

662
00:44:52,573 --> 00:44:53,173
Speaker 4: law lecture.

663
00:44:54,653 --> 00:44:58,733
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say, bye bye, mate, thank

664
00:44:58,773 --> 00:45:16,693
Speaker 2: you into the mail room with missus producer, and I

665
00:45:16,693 --> 00:45:20,573
Speaker 2: want to say welcome back to you. Have you recovered

666
00:45:20,653 --> 00:45:24,693
Speaker 2: yet from a venture across the Tasman lighton?

667
00:45:25,213 --> 00:45:25,573
Speaker 3: Hello?

668
00:45:26,053 --> 00:45:30,813
Speaker 5: Happy twenty twenty six. We had a fantastic few weeks

669
00:45:31,173 --> 00:45:34,053
Speaker 5: in Sydney. A couple of weeks we did, and it

670
00:45:34,093 --> 00:45:37,693
Speaker 5: was so it was a hectic few months here beforehand,

671
00:45:37,973 --> 00:45:40,813
Speaker 5: and was so glad to We were so glad to

672
00:45:40,813 --> 00:45:41,573
Speaker 5: get away.

673
00:45:41,613 --> 00:45:46,133
Speaker 2: And cut the ties for a while. The weather was

674
00:45:46,893 --> 00:45:48,533
Speaker 2: stinking hot most of the time.

675
00:45:48,973 --> 00:45:52,293
Speaker 5: Yes, well, we just left that awful rainy period here

676
00:45:52,373 --> 00:45:55,133
Speaker 5: where you literally didn't think you'd ever see the sun again.

677
00:45:55,293 --> 00:45:58,373
Speaker 5: So we were very grateful. But the best part of

678
00:45:58,413 --> 00:46:01,413
Speaker 5: the summer Laton was your em n z M that

679
00:46:01,493 --> 00:46:06,533
Speaker 5: you were delivered on New Year's Day. We're all very

680
00:46:06,573 --> 00:46:07,093
Speaker 5: proud of you.

681
00:46:07,453 --> 00:46:07,653
Speaker 4: Wow.

682
00:46:07,693 --> 00:46:08,813
Speaker 3: Family is very.

683
00:46:08,493 --> 00:46:10,613
Speaker 5: Proud of you. Children are very proud of you.

684
00:46:11,413 --> 00:46:13,773
Speaker 2: Well, there's a few people that feel the same. I

685
00:46:15,653 --> 00:46:20,293
Speaker 2: have a huge apology to make because it's a renowned

686
00:46:20,333 --> 00:46:24,333
Speaker 2: fact that I am messy when it comes to records

687
00:46:24,373 --> 00:46:28,933
Speaker 2: and keeping things and yes and having them organized properly

688
00:46:29,293 --> 00:46:32,453
Speaker 2: because there's so many of them. But there were so

689
00:46:32,573 --> 00:46:36,973
Speaker 2: many emails that came in starting on the thirty first

690
00:46:37,013 --> 00:46:40,893
Speaker 2: of December when the announcement was made. There were so

691
00:46:40,893 --> 00:46:44,413
Speaker 2: many emails that came in. I printed a handful and

692
00:46:44,453 --> 00:46:47,133
Speaker 2: then then allocated the rest as they came in to

693
00:46:47,933 --> 00:46:50,933
Speaker 2: the flag division on the on the computer right, so

694
00:46:50,973 --> 00:46:55,653
Speaker 2: I flagged them, they're not there. Get back from two

695
00:46:55,653 --> 00:46:59,853
Speaker 2: weeks away. They're not there. There have been things that happened.

696
00:46:59,853 --> 00:47:02,173
Speaker 2: I nearly blew the studio up, the home studio up

697
00:47:02,173 --> 00:47:04,693
Speaker 2: the other day by putting one too many plugs in

698
00:47:04,773 --> 00:47:10,493
Speaker 2: the years in the whole, and that caused that caused

699
00:47:10,493 --> 00:47:15,573
Speaker 2: total chaos. I could tell you more, but I'm not

700
00:47:15,653 --> 00:47:17,173
Speaker 2: going to because it's too embarrassing.

701
00:47:19,453 --> 00:47:22,213
Speaker 5: Anyway, you were saying, you've lost these and these are

702
00:47:22,213 --> 00:47:23,813
Speaker 5: the people to thank.

703
00:47:23,893 --> 00:47:29,293
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are. There were a lot, seriously a lot.

704
00:47:29,933 --> 00:47:32,573
Speaker 2: And I'm very grateful to those of you who who

705
00:47:32,653 --> 00:47:36,093
Speaker 2: dropped a note, and I'm very pleased that we all

706
00:47:36,173 --> 00:47:40,693
Speaker 2: enjoyed this together, to be honest. So I've got I've

707
00:47:40,693 --> 00:47:42,453
Speaker 2: got something here that i want to I want to

708
00:47:42,533 --> 00:47:46,013
Speaker 2: drop in. Ze has arrived at seven thirteen am on

709
00:47:46,133 --> 00:47:50,853
Speaker 2: December thirty one, morning, latent, my hardiest congratulations on your

710
00:47:50,933 --> 00:47:55,173
Speaker 2: much deserved m n Z M award. I know zed

711
00:47:55,253 --> 00:47:57,453
Speaker 2: B will run an interview with you this morning, and

712
00:47:57,493 --> 00:48:00,693
Speaker 2: I look forward to hearing this happy new year from

713
00:48:00,773 --> 00:48:04,613
Speaker 2: Don Don the the.

714
00:48:07,253 --> 00:48:07,453
Speaker 3: Don.

715
00:48:07,493 --> 00:48:10,213
Speaker 2: The interview was was pre recorded a few days before.

716
00:48:10,853 --> 00:48:13,533
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether you picked that up or not,

717
00:48:13,653 --> 00:48:20,493
Speaker 2: but I hope you found it well somewhat interesting and

718
00:48:20,533 --> 00:48:22,093
Speaker 2: thank you, Leighton.

719
00:48:22,173 --> 00:48:24,613
Speaker 5: Liz says, as I scrolled the news in the half

720
00:48:24,733 --> 00:48:27,253
Speaker 5: light of an early Matter Matter morning, I worked my

721
00:48:27,293 --> 00:48:30,293
Speaker 5: way through the new Year's honors list. I was delighted

722
00:48:30,333 --> 00:48:33,853
Speaker 5: to see Leydon's Men's Edit m Award. Whatever these wards mean,

723
00:48:33,893 --> 00:48:37,333
Speaker 5: it's a wonderful recognition of an outstanding career and the

724
00:48:37,413 --> 00:48:41,133
Speaker 5: ongoing labor of love for the truth and quality broadcasting.

725
00:48:41,173 --> 00:48:44,733
Speaker 5: That is your prod, that is your podcast. Best wishes

726
00:48:44,773 --> 00:48:48,293
Speaker 5: to you both, happy birthdays, Merry Christmas, and above all,

727
00:48:48,293 --> 00:48:51,333
Speaker 5: blessings for an outstanding twenty six twenty twenty six And

728
00:48:51,413 --> 00:48:54,173
Speaker 5: Liz to you too, thank you for thank you for writing.

729
00:48:54,333 --> 00:48:57,013
Speaker 2: And I go with you on the twenty six comment.

730
00:48:57,853 --> 00:49:00,813
Speaker 2: So let's spread our wings a bit. On the eighth

731
00:49:00,853 --> 00:49:04,173
Speaker 2: of January, lateon, I've just finished listening to your outstanding

732
00:49:04,213 --> 00:49:07,413
Speaker 2: interview with doctor vi here Corey, thank you. I'm ashamed

733
00:49:07,413 --> 00:49:10,253
Speaker 2: to admit that I was a believer, and like a

734
00:49:10,293 --> 00:49:13,813
Speaker 2: good little boy, ran along to receive my three adurned

735
00:49:13,813 --> 00:49:20,453
Speaker 2: Bloomfield recommended mRNA shots. Given my philosophical and instinctive distrust

736
00:49:20,773 --> 00:49:24,533
Speaker 2: slash dislike of said individuals that should have been enough

737
00:49:24,573 --> 00:49:27,933
Speaker 2: to precipitate greater questioning at the time, But having had

738
00:49:27,933 --> 00:49:31,373
Speaker 2: a background in vaccine development, albeit on the fringes thereof

739
00:49:31,693 --> 00:49:34,973
Speaker 2: in a past life, I swallowed the kool aid and complied.

740
00:49:35,653 --> 00:49:38,773
Speaker 2: But the worm has turned, and at least I have

741
00:49:38,853 --> 00:49:42,853
Speaker 2: the guts to admit when I was wrong. Only after

742
00:49:42,893 --> 00:49:46,653
Speaker 2: the third shot and the rapidly deteriorating rate of efficacy

743
00:49:46,933 --> 00:49:51,853
Speaker 2: of these wonderful new shots did I start to wise up.

744
00:49:52,333 --> 00:49:56,453
Speaker 2: My own son suffered mild vaccine injury and my arcarditis,

745
00:49:56,853 --> 00:50:00,893
Speaker 2: which I dismissed as him being anti. Then, a young

746
00:50:00,933 --> 00:50:04,213
Speaker 2: concrete business owner that I knew personally in New Plymouth,

747
00:50:04,773 --> 00:50:08,173
Speaker 2: fit as a fiddle, fit as a fiddle, I repeat,

748
00:50:08,813 --> 00:50:11,533
Speaker 2: died of an unexplained heart attack a couple of days

749
00:50:12,213 --> 00:50:17,693
Speaker 2: host mRNA vaccine, which he was mandated to receive in

750
00:50:17,853 --> 00:50:21,253
Speaker 2: order to keep his contract reconcrete the parking lot at

751
00:50:21,293 --> 00:50:25,973
Speaker 2: New Plymouth Base Hospital. That, combined with the fact that

752
00:50:26,013 --> 00:50:29,093
Speaker 2: we were fed a changing story and ever increasing need

753
00:50:29,133 --> 00:50:32,253
Speaker 2: for more booster shots despite their obvious failure to protect

754
00:50:32,333 --> 00:50:35,813
Speaker 2: us from COVID, finally wake me up. I had heard

755
00:50:35,853 --> 00:50:40,213
Speaker 2: of friends and relatives using ibermectan in my native South Africa.

756
00:50:40,893 --> 00:50:45,133
Speaker 2: Two friends with similar backgrounds to me obtained some and

757
00:50:45,373 --> 00:50:48,853
Speaker 2: used it in New Zealand. Neither of them managed to

758
00:50:48,973 --> 00:50:53,293
Speaker 2: escape contracting COVID, but I will say they appeared to

759
00:50:53,293 --> 00:50:55,293
Speaker 2: shake it off pretty quickly and get back to work.

760
00:50:55,893 --> 00:50:58,413
Speaker 2: Then my brother in law presented me with doctor Pierre

761
00:50:58,453 --> 00:51:03,093
Speaker 2: Corey's book, The War on Ibermecton. It is brilliant and

762
00:51:03,173 --> 00:51:06,133
Speaker 2: it is I endorsed that. Suddenly a lot of pieces

763
00:51:06,173 --> 00:51:08,533
Speaker 2: of the jigsaw fell into place for me, including why,

764
00:51:08,653 --> 00:51:14,373
Speaker 2: after initial enthusiasm, my iber mecton's efficacy was proven, albeit

765
00:51:14,773 --> 00:51:19,053
Speaker 2: in vitro, at Monash University. Ex colleagues of mine at

766
00:51:19,133 --> 00:51:22,813
Speaker 2: Ligan's Institute suddenly went quiet and would not even return

767
00:51:22,973 --> 00:51:25,333
Speaker 2: or comment on my emails that I sent them on

768
00:51:25,373 --> 00:51:30,053
Speaker 2: the subject. Thank goodness for brave, honest individuals like Pierre Corey,

769
00:51:30,253 --> 00:51:34,733
Speaker 2: Joseph Barron, Paul Merrick, whom you've also interviewed, and also

770
00:51:35,893 --> 00:51:41,893
Speaker 2: an ex saffer. Another individual who I would place alongside

771
00:51:41,893 --> 00:51:44,773
Speaker 2: those fine gentlemen who you may have heard of, is

772
00:51:45,093 --> 00:51:48,933
Speaker 2: doctor John Campbell. He would be a great interview for

773
00:51:48,973 --> 00:51:52,173
Speaker 2: a podcast Laton. I don't mind being quoted Layton, but

774
00:51:52,253 --> 00:51:56,093
Speaker 2: I do request that my name and contact details be

775
00:51:56,253 --> 00:52:01,573
Speaker 2: withheld for obvious reasons. I don't think I named it,

776
00:52:01,973 --> 00:52:06,813
Speaker 2: did I. So there we have it. And that's all

777
00:52:06,933 --> 00:52:10,333
Speaker 2: very well said. And I've had numerous letters covering that

778
00:52:10,933 --> 00:52:12,733
Speaker 2: sort of thing, but that one's a great one late.

779
00:52:12,733 --> 00:52:15,453
Speaker 5: And this is from Nigel. Nigel is somebody that we

780
00:52:15,533 --> 00:52:18,413
Speaker 5: have worked with in the past and both very much admire.

781
00:52:18,653 --> 00:52:23,253
Speaker 5: So this little note makes it all the sweeter. Really,

782
00:52:23,293 --> 00:52:25,533
Speaker 5: he says, I'm in Hong Kong, which is when he

783
00:52:25,653 --> 00:52:28,533
Speaker 5: found out about your M nst M, and he said,

784
00:52:28,573 --> 00:52:30,013
Speaker 5: I am so thrilled for you.

785
00:52:30,013 --> 00:52:31,813
Speaker 3: You are the best.

786
00:52:32,813 --> 00:52:38,173
Speaker 2: You know, Holks. It's embarrassing, but I accept it. And

787
00:52:38,213 --> 00:52:42,453
Speaker 2: the finally until I find the missing the missing bits?

788
00:52:42,533 --> 00:52:43,253
Speaker 2: Are you another one?

789
00:52:44,013 --> 00:52:44,093
Speaker 1: Well?

790
00:52:44,093 --> 00:52:48,733
Speaker 5: Why as you go, Bob says, as a former voluntary

791
00:52:48,813 --> 00:52:52,853
Speaker 5: victim of your podcast program, I take the opportunity of

792
00:52:52,893 --> 00:52:56,813
Speaker 5: conveying hearty congratulation on your well deserved New Year's Honors award.

793
00:52:57,333 --> 00:53:00,893
Speaker 5: Over the years, you've conducted interviews with innumerable people for

794
00:53:01,133 --> 00:53:05,453
Speaker 5: the information, education and enjoyment of the public, and I

795
00:53:05,533 --> 00:53:08,093
Speaker 5: trust that you will continue this in good health on

796
00:53:08,413 --> 00:53:12,413
Speaker 5: any more occasions, and Bob wishes you best wishes for

797
00:53:12,453 --> 00:53:15,213
Speaker 5: twenty twenty six and kind regards Bob.

798
00:53:16,093 --> 00:53:20,373
Speaker 2: Bob, that's much appreciated, and I can't tell you how

799
00:53:20,453 --> 00:53:24,133
Speaker 2: much I enjoyed it when we had our discussion. And

800
00:53:24,173 --> 00:53:26,933
Speaker 2: I trust that you're well as well as your wife.

801
00:53:27,613 --> 00:53:31,613
Speaker 2: So finally I can't resist this. This is twenty three December,

802
00:53:32,333 --> 00:53:36,773
Speaker 2: written by Jonathan. Don't know whether you've had opportunity to

803
00:53:36,813 --> 00:53:39,853
Speaker 2: analyze Simon Wilson's lengthy piece in last Saturday's Herald on

804
00:53:39,973 --> 00:53:46,453
Speaker 2: Stephen Pinker, a cognitive psychologist. Apparently he looks slightly deranged.

805
00:53:46,573 --> 00:53:50,853
Speaker 2: Many shrinks are. Wilson clearly admires him. Some of his

806
00:53:50,933 --> 00:53:57,013
Speaker 2: alleged views appear to be reasonable, others just theft fascist allegations.

807
00:53:57,013 --> 00:54:02,693
Speaker 2: Threely tossed about Trump, the most mendacious politician in the century.

808
00:54:02,933 --> 00:54:05,813
Speaker 2: No mention of Obama or the Dems who controlled the

809
00:54:05,853 --> 00:54:10,533
Speaker 2: Biden Marrionette views are climate change seem more reasonable, but

810
00:54:10,933 --> 00:54:13,813
Speaker 2: you need to read between the lines. Thought you were

811
00:54:14,173 --> 00:54:16,973
Speaker 2: relieved of Simon Wilson for a while, but the Herald

812
00:54:17,013 --> 00:54:20,773
Speaker 2: is evidently going to give his occasional offerings great promidence.

813
00:54:21,293 --> 00:54:24,733
Speaker 2: Silly me, silly me, he says, why should I have

814
00:54:24,773 --> 00:54:25,573
Speaker 2: thought otherwise?

815
00:54:26,413 --> 00:54:26,693
Speaker 3: John?

816
00:54:27,573 --> 00:54:30,773
Speaker 2: What can I say? Well done, missus producer.

817
00:54:32,293 --> 00:54:33,053
Speaker 3: Here we go again.

818
00:54:33,653 --> 00:54:36,613
Speaker 2: I would imagine that we will. We will get a

819
00:54:36,653 --> 00:54:39,093
Speaker 2: bit of correspondence this week on the interview that we

820
00:54:39,133 --> 00:54:42,093
Speaker 2: did with Shane James. Yes, I'm sure you will, So

821
00:54:42,693 --> 00:54:45,053
Speaker 2: we'll see you then you will next week.

822
00:54:45,293 --> 00:54:45,693
Speaker 3: Thank you.

823
00:55:03,653 --> 00:55:05,933
Speaker 2: Now, there's more than one reason why I'm about to

824
00:55:06,013 --> 00:55:10,333
Speaker 2: quote you from a letter that I received from Gary

825
00:55:10,453 --> 00:55:17,413
Speaker 2: Judd KC last September. September twenty had stated and I

826
00:55:17,453 --> 00:55:18,933
Speaker 2: referred to it at the time. I don't think I

827
00:55:18,933 --> 00:55:21,253
Speaker 2: read the whole letter, but I want to do that today.

828
00:55:21,413 --> 00:55:24,213
Speaker 2: There's a number of reasons for it. I say. One

829
00:55:24,333 --> 00:55:26,853
Speaker 2: is having spent two weeks in Sydney, and out of

830
00:55:26,893 --> 00:55:30,533
Speaker 2: Sydney down at Bowrel, we went for three nights to

831
00:55:30,573 --> 00:55:34,773
Speaker 2: stay with a friend on one hundred and fifty acres,

832
00:55:35,373 --> 00:55:38,413
Speaker 2: which was really quite stunning. But maybe more on that

833
00:55:38,813 --> 00:55:42,333
Speaker 2: another time. But it was there that I made a

834
00:55:42,373 --> 00:55:48,693
Speaker 2: call to Louise Clegg. Now you may remember, but if

835
00:55:48,733 --> 00:55:53,653
Speaker 2: you don't, we did a podcast interview with her last

836
00:55:53,693 --> 00:55:58,333
Speaker 2: September and Gary refers to it. So and there's another

837
00:55:58,373 --> 00:56:02,013
Speaker 2: connection I'll get to that in a minute, he said, Latin,

838
00:56:02,053 --> 00:56:04,533
Speaker 2: thank you for your most interesting discussion with Louise Clegg.

839
00:56:05,093 --> 00:56:09,093
Speaker 2: Her description of some of her progressive friends as a

840
00:56:09,133 --> 00:56:15,813
Speaker 2: little bit malleable and credulous and also fashionable is perceptive.

841
00:56:16,693 --> 00:56:20,373
Speaker 2: A few more descriptors may be added, an uncritical desire

842
00:56:20,413 --> 00:56:23,373
Speaker 2: to be part of the good and on the right

843
00:56:23,453 --> 00:56:26,213
Speaker 2: side of history. A need to look good in the

844
00:56:26,253 --> 00:56:29,813
Speaker 2: eyes of others, asking not is this true, but do

845
00:56:29,973 --> 00:56:33,373
Speaker 2: others think it's true? Seeking the approval of others, all

846
00:56:33,493 --> 00:56:37,893
Speaker 2: leading to a reluctance to engage in critical thinking and debate.

847
00:56:38,413 --> 00:56:43,213
Speaker 2: Not your attention a hope. This is the mode of

848
00:56:43,213 --> 00:56:47,933
Speaker 2: thinking of those whom Einrand described as second handers and

849
00:56:48,013 --> 00:56:53,493
Speaker 2: portrayed in The fountain Head, contrasted with the individualist Howard Rourke.

850
00:56:53,773 --> 00:56:57,373
Speaker 2: As Rand put it elsewhere, it is to a second

851
00:56:57,413 --> 00:57:01,253
Speaker 2: hander that the moral appraisal of himself by others is

852
00:57:01,293 --> 00:57:06,213
Speaker 2: a primary concern, which supersedes truth, facts, reason, and logic.

853
00:57:06,973 --> 00:57:10,773
Speaker 2: The divide close quote. The divide in this aspect of

854
00:57:10,813 --> 00:57:13,973
Speaker 2: the human condition is not between the left or progressives

855
00:57:14,053 --> 00:57:18,533
Speaker 2: on the one hand and conservatives on the other. Conservatives

856
00:57:18,533 --> 00:57:22,733
Speaker 2: can be secondhanders, as much as others. The divide is between,

857
00:57:23,213 --> 00:57:27,293
Speaker 2: on one hand, second handers and those who have loyalty

858
00:57:27,373 --> 00:57:30,933
Speaker 2: to the group as a primary and on the other

859
00:57:31,533 --> 00:57:35,573
Speaker 2: those of independent thought and action who take responsibility for

860
00:57:35,613 --> 00:57:38,213
Speaker 2: those thoughts and actions. There is no doubt that in

861
00:57:38,253 --> 00:57:41,533
Speaker 2: New Zealand, like Louis's perception of Australia, too many members

862
00:57:41,573 --> 00:57:45,773
Speaker 2: of the legal profession are in the first camp. Louise

863
00:57:45,853 --> 00:57:50,373
Speaker 2: referred to Francis Fukuiyama. I consider Fukiyama's The Origins of

864
00:57:50,453 --> 00:57:54,653
Speaker 2: Political Order, tracing the growth of political order from pre

865
00:57:54,813 --> 00:57:59,013
Speaker 2: human times to the French Revolution, and political order and

866
00:57:59,093 --> 00:58:04,613
Speaker 2: political decay from the separate books from the Industrial Revolution

867
00:58:05,213 --> 00:58:08,973
Speaker 2: to what he calls the globalization of democracy to be

868
00:58:09,053 --> 00:58:14,853
Speaker 2: great works. As Louise said in her Sliding into Technocracy

869
00:58:15,013 --> 00:58:19,413
Speaker 2: article in the Spectator of Australia, Fukiyama places faith in

870
00:58:19,493 --> 00:58:24,893
Speaker 2: a properly functioning administrative state. What needs emphasis is that

871
00:58:24,973 --> 00:58:29,493
Speaker 2: it is critical to Fukiyama's conception of a properly functioning

872
00:58:29,773 --> 00:58:33,613
Speaker 2: administrative state that the state be one where the rule

873
00:58:33,653 --> 00:58:39,773
Speaker 2: of law prevails. He notes in Origins, page two forty six.

874
00:58:40,693 --> 00:58:43,213
Speaker 2: Up to this point, I have discussed political development in

875
00:58:43,293 --> 00:58:46,973
Speaker 2: terms of state building the ability of states to concentrate

876
00:58:47,013 --> 00:58:50,133
Speaker 2: and use power. The rule of law is a separate

877
00:58:50,173 --> 00:58:55,173
Speaker 2: component of political order that puts limitations on a state's power.

878
00:58:56,053 --> 00:59:00,053
Speaker 2: The first checks on executive power are not those imposed

879
00:59:00,053 --> 00:59:05,853
Speaker 2: by democratic assemblies or elections. Rather, they are the result

880
00:59:05,933 --> 00:59:09,853
Speaker 2: of societies believing that rulers had to operate under the law.

881
00:59:10,533 --> 00:59:14,133
Speaker 2: State building and the rule of law therefore coexist in

882
00:59:14,173 --> 00:59:18,253
Speaker 2: a certain tension. On the one hand, rulers can enhance

883
00:59:18,293 --> 00:59:21,413
Speaker 2: their authority by acting within and on behalf of the law.

884
00:59:21,933 --> 00:59:23,973
Speaker 2: On the other hand, the law can prevent them from

885
00:59:24,053 --> 00:59:26,933
Speaker 2: doing things that they would like to do, not just

886
00:59:27,053 --> 00:59:29,853
Speaker 2: in their own private interest, but in the interests of

887
00:59:29,893 --> 00:59:32,853
Speaker 2: the community as a whole. In her discussion with you,

888
00:59:33,053 --> 00:59:37,573
Speaker 2: Louise noted how during her legal career the profession in

889
00:59:37,613 --> 00:59:42,493
Speaker 2: Australia had moved steadily leftward. During my legal career, writ

890
00:59:42,533 --> 00:59:46,213
Speaker 2: Scarry Judd. During my legal career in New Zealand, the

891
00:59:46,293 --> 00:59:52,013
Speaker 2: distance between the conservatism of most judges and other legal

892
00:59:52,053 --> 00:59:56,093
Speaker 2: elites at the start and today's frequent lack of obedience

893
00:59:56,133 --> 01:00:00,413
Speaker 2: to disliked legislation an abandonment of the virtues of deciding

894
01:00:00,453 --> 01:00:03,173
Speaker 2: a present case. In the same way as a previous

895
01:00:03,213 --> 01:00:10,413
Speaker 2: case has become extreme. Incrementalism is being planted by radicalism,

896
01:00:10,613 --> 01:00:15,173
Speaker 2: often driven by political ideology. This means that judges and

897
01:00:15,253 --> 01:00:18,333
Speaker 2: leaders of the legal profession, who should be upholding and

898
01:00:18,373 --> 01:00:23,053
Speaker 2: protecting the rule of law, are undermining it. By judges

899
01:00:23,093 --> 01:00:27,733
Speaker 2: assuming the role of lawmaker without condemnation from the profession.

900
01:00:28,813 --> 01:00:33,533
Speaker 2: This is what we call judicial activism. It's my insert,

901
01:00:34,213 --> 01:00:37,293
Speaker 2: all the while pretending that they are acting to advance

902
01:00:37,333 --> 01:00:39,293
Speaker 2: the rule of law, when in truth they are trying

903
01:00:39,333 --> 01:00:42,573
Speaker 2: to advance the rule of judges and lawyers. The essence

904
01:00:42,933 --> 01:00:46,493
Speaker 2: of the rule of law is that rule is by law,

905
01:00:46,733 --> 01:00:52,293
Speaker 2: not man. Practicality demands that society choose some people to

906
01:00:52,333 --> 01:00:57,053
Speaker 2: be responsible for making and implementing law. In today's democracies,

907
01:00:57,053 --> 01:01:01,333
Speaker 2: we need not rely on societal pressure to keep lawmakers

908
01:01:01,333 --> 01:01:04,093
Speaker 2: within the law, but on the ability to get rid

909
01:01:04,093 --> 01:01:08,653
Speaker 2: of elected representatives. No such ability exists regarding those who

910
01:01:08,693 --> 01:01:12,573
Speaker 2: are charged with implementing the law, that is, the judges.

911
01:01:13,453 --> 01:01:19,373
Speaker 2: When judges ignore the sovereignty of parliament, abandon precedent and incrementalism,

912
01:01:20,013 --> 01:01:24,853
Speaker 2: and make themselves law makers, they place themselves above the law,

913
01:01:25,173 --> 01:01:28,653
Speaker 2: and in confrontation of the rule of law in defiance

914
01:01:28,693 --> 01:01:31,013
Speaker 2: of the oaths they took when entering office to be

915
01:01:31,053 --> 01:01:35,973
Speaker 2: faithful and bear true allegiance to the sovereign according to

916
01:01:36,013 --> 01:01:39,453
Speaker 2: the law, and to serve the Sovereign according to the

917
01:01:39,573 --> 01:01:45,013
Speaker 2: law in the office of Judge. Regards Gary, Now, I

918
01:01:45,053 --> 01:01:48,573
Speaker 2: should again thank Gary Judd for writing and sending me

919
01:01:48,653 --> 01:01:55,693
Speaker 2: that opinion. The connection that I mentioned earlier with Louise Clegg,

920
01:01:56,213 --> 01:01:59,493
Speaker 2: that's what inspired him to write. But Louise Clegg, in

921
01:01:59,533 --> 01:02:04,013
Speaker 2: case you don't know, is the wife of Angus Taylor. Now,

922
01:02:04,293 --> 01:02:07,413
Speaker 2: as I'm recording this, which is on the morning of release,

923
01:02:08,493 --> 01:02:11,333
Speaker 2: anything can happen in the next day twenty four hours,

924
01:02:11,493 --> 01:02:14,133
Speaker 2: forty eight hours, but probably this week with regard to

925
01:02:14,173 --> 01:02:18,653
Speaker 2: Angus Taylor, who is a member of the Liberal Party

926
01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:22,293
Speaker 2: of course and a member of Parliament, and is also

927
01:02:23,093 --> 01:02:26,373
Speaker 2: as far as we know as I speak, is standing

928
01:02:26,373 --> 01:02:30,453
Speaker 2: for the leadership of the Liberal Party in Australia. It's

929
01:02:30,493 --> 01:02:35,693
Speaker 2: a mess. The whole scenario in Australia is a mess politically.

930
01:02:36,373 --> 01:02:39,693
Speaker 2: Anywhere and everywhere we went and spoke with people, they

931
01:02:39,733 --> 01:02:42,893
Speaker 2: wanted to discuss such things and make comparisons or ask

932
01:02:43,013 --> 01:02:45,493
Speaker 2: questions about New Zealand and how much better off. We

933
01:02:45,573 --> 01:02:52,133
Speaker 2: might be it was just a rolling conversation, so it

934
01:02:52,173 --> 01:02:55,933
Speaker 2: could be by the time you hear this that Angus

935
01:02:55,973 --> 01:02:58,733
Speaker 2: Taylor is the leader of the Liberal Party, which can

936
01:02:58,773 --> 01:03:02,453
Speaker 2: only be an improvement or is not, and he's gone

937
01:03:03,093 --> 01:03:06,613
Speaker 2: and things will roll on poorly as they have been

938
01:03:06,973 --> 01:03:11,493
Speaker 2: with the incompetence who currently running it, that is the

939
01:03:11,533 --> 01:03:16,293
Speaker 2: Liberal Party, and providing no alternative to the fool that's

940
01:03:16,333 --> 01:03:19,733
Speaker 2: running the country. Well, that's what his chore is. What

941
01:03:19,813 --> 01:03:22,533
Speaker 2: he's doing is nothing of the sort, as I think

942
01:03:22,653 --> 01:03:28,773
Speaker 2: most people, even those who belong to the Labor Party agree. Now,

943
01:03:28,773 --> 01:03:31,213
Speaker 2: that will take us out for podcast number three hundred

944
01:03:31,293 --> 01:03:34,533
Speaker 2: and fifteen if you would like to write to us

945
01:03:34,613 --> 01:03:38,453
Speaker 2: latent aduced Talk, SAIDB dot Co dot nz and Carolyn

946
01:03:38,613 --> 01:03:42,333
Speaker 2: at Newstalk said B dot Co dot Nz. The other

947
01:03:42,333 --> 01:03:45,533
Speaker 2: thing I was going to say was that Gary Judd's

948
01:03:45,613 --> 01:03:50,013
Speaker 2: letter would fit hand in glove in my opinion, with

949
01:03:50,893 --> 01:03:55,173
Speaker 2: Shane Jones's attitude. And both of them come from Northland,

950
01:03:56,373 --> 01:04:00,133
Speaker 2: so I find that interesting. Maybe Northland has the answers

951
01:04:00,853 --> 01:04:03,533
Speaker 2: over which the rest of the country is still struggling.

952
01:04:04,253 --> 01:04:06,373
Speaker 2: So we shall return, as I say, for three to

953
01:04:06,373 --> 01:04:11,733
Speaker 2: one six next week in the meantime, thank you for

954
01:04:11,853 --> 01:04:13,413
Speaker 2: listening and we'll talk soon.

955
01:04:21,293 --> 01:04:24,893
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks, ed B Listen

956
01:04:24,973 --> 01:04:27,933
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

957
01:04:28,053 --> 01:04:31,213
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio