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Speaker 1: And the government wants to shake up free speech laws

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Speaker 1: in universities. Today's to day it releases its Quarter to

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Speaker 1: Action plant and one of their focuses includes introducing legislation

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Speaker 1: to require freedom of expression in our unis and now

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Speaker 1: former Victoria University Dean and now New Zealand Initiative Research

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Speaker 1: fellow doctor Michael Johnson is with us and he joins me. Now,

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Speaker 1: good morning to Michael.

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Speaker 2: Oh, good morning. I should point out I was an

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Speaker 2: associate dean, not a dean.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, that's very important. Is this necessary?

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Speaker 2: I believe it is. And the New Zealand Initiative Where

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Speaker 2: Are Now work also does our research fellow James Kirsted

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Speaker 2: published a report last year that showed that high proportions

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Speaker 2: of academics and students feel intimidated to talk about certain

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Speaker 2: topics in the university and including things like the Treaty

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Speaker 2: of White Tonguey and sex and gender issues surrounding that.

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Speaker 2: So a range of issues academics and students are feeling

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Speaker 2: worried about talking about and we do need to beef

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Speaker 2: up protections for their ability to do so.

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Speaker 1: So I thought this was about freedom of speech, but

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Speaker 1: not the freedom to talk about treaty issues or gender issues.

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Speaker 2: Well, freedom of speech encompasses the ability to talk about

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Speaker 2: all kinds of things, and academics and students have to

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Speaker 2: have academic freedom to broach any topic that they want

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Speaker 2: to in the university environment. That's what universities are for.

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Speaker 2: They're supposed to be forums for discussion of all kinds

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Speaker 2: of different ideas.

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Speaker 1: So they can talk about treaty and gender.

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Speaker 2: Issues, amongst other things.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, is this problem institutional or is it amongst

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Speaker 1: the students or is it ingrained in the faculty.

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Speaker 2: Well, to some extent, it's all three. There's evidence that

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Speaker 2: there's huge political bias within the faculty, so they lean

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Speaker 2: massive life left. The student population almost certainly does as well.

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Speaker 2: But certainly some of these measures come from the Sorry,

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Speaker 2: problems come from the university administration. So the problems in

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Speaker 2: all three of those bodies of people.

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Speaker 1: Okay, sir, in your opinion, what would the law look like?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the universities need to be reminded

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Speaker 2: of their obligation under the Education and Training Act to

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Speaker 2: protect academic freedom on our campuses. And we think that

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Speaker 2: that will only happen if the legislation has a bit

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Speaker 2: of teeth to it. So there needs to be some

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Speaker 2: kind of financial penalty for universities that consistently breach their

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Speaker 2: members that as students or academics academic freedom.

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Speaker 1: All right, Michael and I thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: your time. Michael the former Associate Dean of Victoria University

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Speaker 1: and New Zealand Initiative Research Failing. For more from earlier

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Speaker 1: edition with Ryan Bridge, listen live to Newstalk Set B

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Speaker 1: from five am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio