1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: Time for catch up with the and faster. You remember him, 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: coach controversy, the bloke after Hanson, before Robertson. But there 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: is a bit of a story in the tenure. Seventy 4 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: percent winning rate, thirty two wins, twelve losses. We lost 5 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: our number one world ranking of course, one four letters 6 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: loads for Freedom Cup story, Rugby Championships. He's got the lines. 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Two are coming up, but he's got a role in that. 8 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Coach is currently in Japan. His new book is called 9 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: Leading under Pressure and the Ian Foster's with us. Very 10 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: good morning morning Mike. Last time we talked, you were 11 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: heading home to do those beautiful lawns of yours. How 12 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: are they looking? 13 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: Well? 14 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 3: Your memory is pretty good anyway, and the lawns have 15 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 3: been made. But subsequently I've actually shut off to do 16 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 3: a bit of work in Japan for a year, so 17 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 3: I've had to GE's someone else into mote them. But 18 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 3: back now, grass has grown in the wye caddow, which 19 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 3: is a good sign. 20 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: Good where are you at psychologically, mentally, culturally everything You're 21 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: feeling good about yourself in life? 22 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: Yep, I am. 23 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 3: It's you know, like it's came back from the World 24 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: Cup and gave myself a chance to breathe a little 25 00:00:58,600 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 3: bit before we thought about. 26 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: What's next and looked at a. 27 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 3: Couple of options around the world, but decided coaching at 28 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: a club level was the next thing for me, and 29 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 3: so really enjoying the experience in Japan, you know, teaching 30 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 3: an old dog new tricks and you know, having to 31 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 3: adjust to a new environment. 32 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: So I've actually really enjoyed that. 33 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: But like I said, it's great to be having for 34 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 3: two or three months and reconnect back here and be 35 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: heading back over there for the next year comes September. 36 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: What's your observation of Japan and it's rugby, because it's 37 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: not like it doesn't have a good New Zealand connection 38 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: these days, both with coaches and players. Is it progressing? 39 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Japan competition really is. It's in fact, 40 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 3: you know, it's been a learning curve for me. But 41 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 3: talking to a lot of the other coaches up there, 42 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 3: both a lot of South African and ki We coaches 43 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: who really believe that competition is just like this last 44 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: year they felt was one of the best it's ever 45 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 3: been in terms of strength, and I think when you 46 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 3: look around the world in terms of the viability of competitions. 47 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 3: Probably the French competition in the in the japan competition 48 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 3: of the two that are probably stand alone, has been 49 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 3: really financially viable, so i'd see massive growth and that 50 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: that domestic competition up there. 51 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: How what's your view of global rugby and the reason 52 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: I asked that a superfold one of the Japanese comment 53 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: you just made this R three sixty thing that may 54 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: or may not come to something. This this this club 55 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: competition with some super rugby teams South versus North, plus 56 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: the international calendar or all of that. Is rugby in 57 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: a healthy state or is there a too much rugby? 58 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: Well? 59 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 3: I think it's in a healthy state. But I mean, 60 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: if you look at look at two things for the 61 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 3: for the game to really to thrive, you've got to 62 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 3: have great governance, and you've got to have and you've 63 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: got to have great competition structures. And I think it's 64 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: at at both those levels. The game's gone through massive transitions. 65 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: You've seen it in our country the last four or 66 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: five years, and it's sort of some things that I 67 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: address in the book we've done, where you know, you 68 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: look at introduction of private equity, different types of people owning, 69 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: owning parts of the game. And it's not wrong or 70 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: it's not bad, it's just required a whole rethink of 71 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 3: how the game operates. And so the government sides a challenge. 72 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 3: And so's the competition side. Because you go around the 73 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: world to a lot of the major competitions, they're struggling 74 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: to sustain their competition on a financial backing. 75 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: So how they go about that? 76 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: And so the dilemma has always been what do you 77 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 3: do more? And you go bigger and shinier, But the 78 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 3: trouble that doesn't. 79 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: Increase your costs as well. 80 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: So there's a big rethink going on about how particularly 81 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: in the Northern hemisphere. You know, a lot of what 82 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: used to be. 83 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: A stronghold in terms of the club stuff is. 84 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: There's a lot of financial pressure in that market. 85 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: Is that how rugby is run? Because I've got a 86 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: sort of a personal interest in international sport generally, and 87 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: I look at it from a business point of view. 88 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: If you look at the American market particularly, it's booming. 89 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: I mean, there is no shortage of money for sport, 90 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: and sport is wealthy, and yet there are some parts 91 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: of rugby that's not wealthy. In fact, the ends are 92 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: lose money. Is that because there isn't money for rugby 93 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: or because the way rugby's run is a problem. 94 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: Well, it's probably a combination of both. 95 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 3: But I think if you look at the American market, 96 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 3: and to a certain degree even the Australian market, an AFL, 97 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: NRAL is that their strength is there is their club competition, 98 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: their franchise competitions, and like in America, like they're massively strong, 99 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 3: and in sports that really don't need the international game, 100 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: you know, like NFL that they they don't try to 101 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 3: take it global as such, that is interested in promoting 102 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 3: their own brand. So whereas rugby, particularly when you look 103 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 3: around the world and you look at countries like New Zealand, 104 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: need the international game to be strong because that's that's 105 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 3: most of the most of our revenue. So but if 106 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: you also need to give more autonomy to to the 107 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 3: franchises that operate underneath because they need to be financially 108 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 3: sustainable as well. So it's as you give more autonomy 109 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 3: to the to the competition structure, sometimes it depowers the 110 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: international structure. And that's the dilemma for rugby to get right. 111 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: It's interesting, let me ask you the all Blacks where 112 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: where where do you see the all blacks as I mean, 113 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: are they as powerful an entity as they ever have been? 114 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: Or not? Absolutely? 115 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: You know they're still a you know, if you look 116 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: at a brand, they're a massive brand, and you know, 117 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 3: you live in Japan and you realize how realize again 118 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: how powerful they can be. But it's you know, the 119 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 3: beauty of that is that's you know that that can 120 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: change quickly. You know that the power of the brand 121 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: has really come from a. 122 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: Set of values that have. 123 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: Been built up over one hundred years of New Zealand, 124 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: and the key is to as we go through new eras, 125 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 3: to make sure you don't walk away from those values. 126 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: Is rugby angsty in terms of my look, I don't know. 127 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm a fan, that's all I am. 128 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: But I look at the way rugby's run in this 129 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: country and you've got your provincial, you've got your national, 130 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: you've got you know, the fact you're losing money worries me. 131 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: But it seems there's an angst to rugby that's not 132 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: particularly necessary or am I misreading that? 133 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, I think there always has been, Mike, and 134 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, we need you to stay 135 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 3: a fan. We want people to stay in love with 136 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 3: the game. We talk a lot about it. There's always 137 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: there's always, you know, conflict points between the NPC, Super Rugby, 138 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 3: All Blacks, governance, all that sort of stuff, and that's 139 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: kind of part of it in some ways that it's 140 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 3: a healthy it's healthy that those things get discussed publicly, 141 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: you know, because it's you know, it's part of the game, 142 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 3: part of the country. And I think there are but 143 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 3: there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved. 144 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: Got to make sure, you know, we don't keep strong 145 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 3: the base of our game, then there's not a lot 146 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 3: left for us at. 147 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,119 Speaker 2: That at the top level. 148 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: So although I don't think, I don't think we should 149 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: be massively concerned about it, but we certainly have to 150 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 3: be prepared to change. 151 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: What have you looked at as regard I mean, the 152 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: whole book's called leading under pressure, and no one lead 153 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: under more pressure than you because you know, everyone had 154 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: a knee and Foster view of the world, didn't they 155 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: At the end of that Well, wait, what do you 156 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: think of that now that you've got that in the 157 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: reavision mirror? 158 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I reckon it's an important story to tell 159 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: I never I say in the book. I never intended 160 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: to write a book. I never didn't really I thought 161 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: that was some important or more interesting people. But I 162 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 3: just feel that post World Cup came back to a 163 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: to a country that was probably you know, clear, I 164 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: can't speak on behalf of everyone, but a lot of 165 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: the feedback we got it that people actually saw a 166 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: team go through a journey over those four years, and 167 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: even those that were critical and didn't like things and 168 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 3: hated losing to Ireland like all of us, but they 169 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 3: saw a team come out the other side a little 170 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: bit and grow towards the end. And I just felt 171 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: that I almost owed it to a management team and 172 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: a lot of my leading players to actually tell the 173 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 3: story of the journey of that particular team, because there's 174 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 3: no doubt that going through going through COVID and the 175 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: quarantines and all the things that we will know about 176 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 3: those this first twenty twenty twenty one changed the way 177 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: we approached those four years. That put us under a 178 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 3: lot of pressure, and it put everyone under a lot 179 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: of pressure. But telling the story about how we as 180 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 3: an organization dealt with that, and some of it's probably 181 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: not good, but to me. I'm intensely proud of how 182 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: a team sort of really stuck together even with a 183 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: bit of adversity checked at it, or a lot of 184 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 3: adversity checked that it sort of relied on itself to 185 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: sort of dig itself out of a bit of a 186 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 3: hole and. 187 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: Nearly got there. 188 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: So that's kind of the story, and you know, people 189 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: can can judge it from whichever angle they want, but 190 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: I felt it was an important one to share because 191 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 3: I've just got massive regard for the people that I 192 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: worked with and went through the same trip that I did. 193 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: How do you deal with it as a leader under 194 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: pressure when you've got young men under pressure but they 195 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: won't have known what you already know, and they're all 196 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: individuals anyway, and deal with things in different faces of 197 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: their life and approach. 198 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: A great quote I believe in which is a river 199 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 3: without banks is called a flood. And you've actually got 200 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: to supply I think when things are uncertain, you've got 201 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 3: to supply some certainty and you've got to be brutally 202 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:56,599 Speaker 3: honest about it. 203 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: You've got to say, well, this is where we're at, 204 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: this is. 205 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: Where we're going, and then you've got to walk alongside 206 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: people and I think that's what happened at that time period, 207 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 3: is that yet to actually rather than push or pull 208 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 3: them along, you had to walk alongside them because everyone 209 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 3: had had concerns at different levels. 210 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: And I think. 211 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 3: It was a different time to lead. You had to 212 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 3: lead a different way. Some of it clearly that I 213 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: wouldn't have said I got right all the time, but 214 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 3: it was certainly that that was how I felt we 215 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 3: went through that period and. 216 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: And some of the pressure you. 217 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: Was generated outside the organization. Some of that was generated 218 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: inside the organization, but the strategy of how we dealt 219 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: what it was the same. 220 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: Mark Robinson, who you're well aware is quite recently he 221 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: said no regrets. Do you have any regrets? 222 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: No? 223 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,719 Speaker 3: No, Well, when I say no regrets in terms of 224 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: the way I led and how I went through things, 225 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 3: you know, I don't think you can never say you 226 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 3: got no regrets because you never get it one hundred 227 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: dent right, But I think did I learn? 228 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: Did I move through things? Did I you know? 229 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 3: And ultimately as a leader, yeah, the ultimate test is 230 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 3: if you think you're a leader, but you look over 231 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 3: over your shoulder and no one's following, then you're not 232 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: doing a good job. 233 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: But the fact that that we had a team that 234 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 2: stayed tight. 235 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: United and under a lot of pressure when I performed 236 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 3: at the end, then that's something that I'm really proud of. 237 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: Good stuff. Listen good to catch up. You might go well, 238 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 1: the book is Leading under Pressure. He and Foster with 239 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: us this morning. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, 240 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: listen live to news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, 241 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.