1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: We got news today that nearly half of the government's 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: contractors and consultancy spending cuts that we were harping on 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: about last week will be coming from Health New Zealand alone. 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: So that is about two hundred and four million dollars 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: spent on contractors, consultants and locals. And it's raised the 6 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: question why aren't we spending that employing full time staff 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: and why do we end out spending so much money 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: on consultants and health in the first place. So former 9 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: Health New Zealand chair Rob Campbell joins in, Now, Hello Rob, 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: So why do we have so many contractors and consultants 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: and Health? 12 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: Well, there was a degree of what I call learned 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 2: helplessness in the management structures of Health and of some 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: other parts of the public service, which developed over the years, 15 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: partly my people harping on about the private sect always 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: being best about things, but also partly just a crisis 17 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 2: of confidence in the amount of money that was coming 18 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: into Health and the difficulty they were having of finding 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: answers to get a better outcome. So over time and 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 2: agree with what again, learned helplessness developed. It's most unfortunately, 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: it's good to see and that it is being reversed. 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: If that's what this tells us. So I have no 23 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: doubt that there was a lot of room to improve 24 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: costs there and get those cost re erecor towards the 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: frontline of health. But not all most caught, and not 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: all consultants are the same. You look consultants and contractors together. 27 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: That combines both big consultancy company charging millions and millions 28 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: of dollars to do stuff at the public service should 29 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: and is able to do itself with individual contractors, particularly 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 2: it in places like that where that has simply become 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 2: the way that people work. So I don't think it's 32 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: helpful to lump those numbers to get on. It's helpful 33 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: to the politicians who are claiming to have made savings, 34 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: but whether it's really made the right savings in the 35 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: right places will only time will tell. 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: Thing with all this learned helplessness and what a beautiful 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: phrase that is, rob if we cut all that out, 38 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: can health survive? 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: Look, it's only a very small part of health surviving 40 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: actually the cost part of it and the redirection of 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 2: those costs as part of it. But you know, you 42 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: could cut out a whole lot of costs that were 43 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: vital to health, and from outside in the reporting that 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: we get, it's really impossible to tell. I think it's 45 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 2: a mixture. I think some things that were clearly wasteful 46 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: have been chopped. I think that, particularly in the IT area, 47 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: some contractors and other advisors who have been cut are 48 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: not a particularly good idea at all. But you know, 49 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: you've got to start somewhere, and generally it's progress. 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: And if we cut the learned helplessness, could that money 51 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: that we save actually end up being prioritized for full 52 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: time stuff and so there was no overall net saving. 53 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 2: It could mean there's no overall net saving. I think 54 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: that's the right way to be thinking about this. What 55 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: we want is a bit of health service. So what 56 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: we're whether there's a saving or not, it's not really 57 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 2: the point. It's really whether that money is being redirected 58 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: more purposefully than it was in the past. And as 59 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: I say, it's very hard to tell from outside whether 60 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: that is true or not. Some of the results suggest 61 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: that it's not. I'm concerned that with a very narrow 62 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: range of priorities being pushed on to front aura, it 63 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: may well be that they're concentrating on those specific targets 64 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: rather than do overall improvement in the machine, and that 65 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: is the thing that we really need. Rob. 66 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: Thank you for once again waking up early for us 67 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: as Rob Campbell, former Chair of Health New Zealand. 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