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Speaker 1: Being a Monday, the Prime ministers in the studio. Good

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Speaker 1: to see you, and I believe parliament's back this week,

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Speaker 1: am I.

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Speaker 2: Clam and you'll be pleased. And three weeks sitting you're

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Speaker 2: going to deliver a budget over that period of time.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it great? We're back at work.

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Speaker 1: I'm so pleased here at a couple of a couple of things. First,

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Speaker 1: have you talked well? But yes I did.

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Speaker 2: I had a great chat with him yesterday morning. The

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Speaker 2: voice was very hoarse. I think he's probably still in

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Speaker 2: as pajamas, but he was obviously feeling pretty good after

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Speaker 2: a pretty emphatic win, as you saw.

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Speaker 1: Despite the ideological different size, Hume's business as usual and

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Speaker 1: we get on.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's really interesting actually even though we're different

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Speaker 2: political parties. I guess the center might be slightly different

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Speaker 2: in both countries. But actually, you know, Key got on

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Speaker 2: very well with Gillard and actually that some of the

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Speaker 2: best collaborations at a personal level have been from leaders

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Speaker 2: in different parties. Alban Easy I knew before I came

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Speaker 2: to politics, and so yeah, we've got a great friendship.

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Speaker 1: Actually, did you know Dutton.

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Speaker 2: I knew him a little bit. I met with him

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Speaker 2: a couple of times here in New Zealand, and I'd

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Speaker 2: sort of talked to him a few times when I

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Speaker 2: was over in Australia as well, So, you know, really

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Speaker 2: decent individual, I thought. I sent him a text and

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Speaker 2: spoke to him as well and just said, I thought

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Speaker 2: you gave a very classy concession speech, you know, pretty

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Speaker 2: difficult when he got a result like he got, and

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Speaker 2: wished him well for the future. Soe we appreciated that.

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Speaker 1: So what do you make of the world. So much

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Speaker 1: is being made of you. You go and I know

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Speaker 1: you commented not yesterday, you go to stability and what

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Speaker 1: you know? And yet in Britain they didn't. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: tipped it on its head. So is the world really

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Speaker 1: moving to what we know? Or I think the results

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Speaker 1: I looked out.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to Mark Carney yesterday as well in Canada,

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Speaker 2: and I also spoke with Lawrence Wong, the Singapore Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister as well. Different political system, but actually he lifted

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Speaker 2: his result in the popular vote, which was good. And

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Speaker 2: then obviously Anthony in Australia. And I think those three elections,

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Speaker 2: to say to you, people are acknowledging and I see it.

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Speaker 2: People are anxious about what's going on in the world

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Speaker 2: at the moment. We've also got coming through difficult times

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Speaker 2: with inflation and all of that stuff, and they want

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Speaker 2: strong economic management at uncertain times, you know, And that's

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Speaker 2: what you know, our government's been pretty relentlessly focused on

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Speaker 2: from day one because that's the thing that matters most

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Speaker 2: to New Islanders. And when you start talk about other

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Speaker 2: stuff other than that, that's not what they're interested in,

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Speaker 2: because they want you there to fix the problems that

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Speaker 2: they're experiencing.

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Speaker 1: David Tamore says we've got too many ministers.

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Speaker 2: Is he correct, Well, nah, I think I think actually

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Speaker 2: it's about delivery of that public service, and so I'm

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Speaker 2: very comfortable with what the setup is, but I'm uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: with the performance we're getting out of the public service

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Speaker 2: and I want more. And so for me, it's not

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Speaker 2: about the number of ministers. It's actually about the size

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Speaker 2: of the ministries that are supporting those ministers and more importantly,

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Speaker 2: the effectiveness of them. You know, As I've said to

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Speaker 2: you before, I think we're making some good progress where

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Speaker 2: we talk the language of outcomes and results and I

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Speaker 2: meet with the sees of the public service We've obviously

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Speaker 2: made quite a few changes in personnel and staff and

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Speaker 2: that's making a big difference when you get the right

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Speaker 2: leader on the right department. You know, think about what's

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Speaker 2: happened at Housing New Zealand with Simon Mutam and others.

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Speaker 2: That's been really positive. So now I think at the

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Speaker 2: moment interesting intellectual idea. Yep, you look at that down

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Speaker 2: the road, but for right now, we need delivery out

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Speaker 2: of the public service.

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Speaker 1: MB have nineteen reporting lines ministers. I mean, that's not

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Speaker 1: is that too many ministers or is that what you're

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Speaker 1: arguing the department?

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Speaker 2: I think you know, if you look at MB, there's

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Speaker 2: been a massive growth in FTE people in that department.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of a lot of growth in

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Speaker 2: some of the public service. We just got to keep

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Speaker 2: pruning that back and also getting it very very focused.

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Speaker 1: I've tried to.

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Speaker 2: Simplify by having ministers that have clusters of like sort

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Speaker 2: of activities or portfolios around them to make better sense

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Speaker 2: and there's more coherency to it. But there's things that

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Speaker 2: we could continue to do to improve the public service

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Speaker 2: and the wiring of which units go everywhere. But to

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Speaker 2: be honest, do I want to spend the next twelve months,

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Speaker 2: you know, radically restructuring the public service and actually not

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Speaker 2: delivering improved outcomes. I want the outcomes and the efficiencies, okay,

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Speaker 2: and the the other thing i'd say, Mike on the

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Speaker 2: public services, I think the big opportunity is in technology.

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Speaker 2: I think if we could digitize government, where you as

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Speaker 2: a customer dealing with the government, and you are a

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Speaker 2: customer actually could use technology in a way, you would

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Speaker 2: simplify the back end of it really well. And if

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Speaker 2: you look at what's happened in places like a Stonia,

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Speaker 2: in Singapore and the UAE, you know, they know your

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Speaker 2: MIC and they know that you've got a number of kids,

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Speaker 2: and you can do an AI sort of natural language

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Speaker 2: query about what your entitlements might be versus going to

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Speaker 2: a health website and education website. So we could equit engineers.

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Speaker 1: But that's that's my I mean, Singapore also runs the

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Speaker 1: country with a handful of ministers and the prime ministers

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Speaker 1: played two million bucks a year, and they're just a

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Speaker 1: completely different country. They're different mind, it's.

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Speaker 2: A different setup. But a Stonier is an MMP type

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Speaker 2: environment like us. The UA is obviously a different model,

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Speaker 2: but My point is I want the public service to

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Speaker 2: think of the public of New Zealand as customers and

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Speaker 2: they are large service organizations as you would expect outside

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Speaker 2: of in the private sector.

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Speaker 1: As Audrey Young. Do you read her piece in school

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Speaker 1: with eight? You got an eight from her her annual

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Speaker 1: marketing and she says this better at managing the government

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Speaker 1: internally than selling it domestically. Is that fair?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Look, I think there's You're constantly reflecting on what

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Speaker 2: more you can do better, and I'm sure there's better

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Speaker 2: communication I could could could do and I've got to

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Speaker 2: keep working at that, and you know I will. But

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Speaker 2: for me, you know, I came to politics four years

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Speaker 2: ago because I want the country to realize it's potential.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a great country and I don't think

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Speaker 2: we have. I've brought a lot of managerial sort of

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Speaker 2: you know, approach to what I'm doing. I've got my team,

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Speaker 2: I think the right ministers on the right assignments with

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Speaker 2: real clarity and holding them to account and supporting them

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Speaker 2: when they need that, and obviously running the public service

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Speaker 2: with quarterly targets and all those kinds of things. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's that I do think, you know, that CEO background

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Speaker 2: is actually quite useful for the time that we're in.

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Speaker 1: The critics are here on yesterday's announcement, defend this. What's

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Speaker 1: the quickest way to get your military spend into two

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Speaker 1: percent of GDP? So we can say we're doing go

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Speaker 1: and weigh two billion dollars on five helicopters. You say, what, now,

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Speaker 1: that's rubbish.

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Speaker 2: What's different on the defense plan is that in the

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Speaker 2: past you'd have people say we're going to do all

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Speaker 2: this stuff, but there was no money associated with the investments.

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Speaker 2: We've got a really clear plan for fifteen years of

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Speaker 2: the capabilities and the skills we want to build into

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Speaker 2: the defense force in New Zealand that will then plug

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Speaker 2: in well with the Australians and other defense partners. And

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Speaker 2: what's unique here is we've put spending associated with that.

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Speaker 2: So we will spend twelve billion dollars over the next

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Speaker 2: four years, and the first budget announcement you'll see coming

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Speaker 2: up this year, you know that announcement will be there'll

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Speaker 2: be around two billion dollars for those five marine helicopters.

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Speaker 2: We need those helicopters. That's a right capability for us

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Speaker 2: to have when we do emergency management in the Pacific

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Speaker 2: and back home.

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Speaker 1: I know you're not going to answer, and I probably

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Speaker 1: asked you this before, but it came to my mind

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Speaker 1: yesterday when you announced what your twelve billion is a

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Speaker 1: stunning amount of money. It's over four years, I understand that,

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Speaker 1: and nine of it's new and we don't have any

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Speaker 1: of it. So Nicola, in announcing one point three instead

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Speaker 1: of two point four as she did last week, must

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Speaker 1: have found a shitload of dough somewhere in terms of savings,

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Speaker 1: has she?

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Speaker 2: Again, I'm going to be the wrong answer that you're

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Speaker 2: not going to like, but it is. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to talk.

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Speaker 1: About otherwise it just doesn't add up.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you it does add up, and

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Speaker 2: it's worin our fiscal track, and so I appreciate you know,

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Speaker 2: people have lots of questions about how we're going to

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Speaker 2: fund and do that that will be revealed as we

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Speaker 2: deal with the.

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Speaker 1: Bub It will all make sense. It will all.

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Speaker 2: Makes sense, and what you're going to see as a

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Speaker 2: budget that is actually saying Yep, we know we're in

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Speaker 2: tough and uncertain times, but we have turned the corner

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Speaker 2: and actually things are getting better now. We actually want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that this we are investing for growth,

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Speaker 2: and that's why we're calling it the growth budget. But

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Speaker 2: it's also going to be responsible because we have to

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Speaker 2: pay down that debt over time. We actually have to

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Speaker 2: get our books in much better shape than what they

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Speaker 2: have been and so it will be responsible and that's

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Speaker 2: what you should expect from a government led by Nicola

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Speaker 2: and myself.

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Speaker 1: John Ryan's report into the Have you read it if

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about, the EWEI relations and

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Speaker 1: the deals that have been done with Murray over the years.

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Speaker 1: He's on his way out, isn't he? Isn't he? John

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Speaker 1: Ryan leaving ordered to general. I'm not sure I thought

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Speaker 1: it was anyways written, this major report that says basically,

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Speaker 1: none of the government departments are meeting murray expectations as

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Speaker 1: a result of the treaty process. In other words, you

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Speaker 1: see you sign a treaty deal and no one follows up. Yeah. Look,

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Speaker 1: I think one of them's got a KPI a target.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so here or not? No, No, there is a

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Speaker 2: real there is an issue there which I've spoken with

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Speaker 2: Tama about and we've we've tooked that through. It sees

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Speaker 2: to you what happens is you do a treaty settlement,

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Speaker 2: and then there are obligations on the crown and on EWE.

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Speaker 1: He says, you're not making any of them.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that we can do. I agree with that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we've done a good enough job of

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Speaker 2: following through on the actions. And I meet with typically

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Speaker 2: some of those EWEI you know, each year with my

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Speaker 2: set of ministers, and the key question is, and Tim

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Speaker 2: is now getting it gripped up, but we do have

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Speaker 2: a plan to actually say, right, are you following through

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Speaker 2: on those actions and those commitments that we've made.

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Speaker 1: I do think we can do a better job on

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Speaker 1: that is Talma coming back to you in my lifetime.

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Speaker 1: On the review of the White Tangy Tribune, Yes, he is.

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Speaker 2: He's working on that right now.

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Speaker 1: So you say that every time. I know, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: he's working on it. When's he going to produce something

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Speaker 1: that Scott's not sure on the time his last week?

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Speaker 1: You say, where the hell's the report on the White

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Speaker 1: Tank in tribunal Talma or words to that effect.

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Speaker 2: No, he's very clear about what he's expected to deliver.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the things he's working very closely on on.

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Speaker 1: Rutherford tell me about him. Have you heard this morning story? No?

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Speaker 1: What's the story? Is he stopped in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a highway. There was a man who was in some

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Speaker 1: mental distress. And do you know the story? Now? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So he's in some mental distress. He's in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the highway over the weekend. Tom's on his way

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Speaker 1: home from the market. He stops put his life at

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Speaker 1: risk to help this guy off the state highway. Is

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Speaker 1: that Tom? Tom that he unized?

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Speaker 2: That is a great young man and he's got a

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Speaker 2: great future. And he's someone I've spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time with and he really cares about people. He's a

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Speaker 2: great rugby referee, does all sorts of things in his community.

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Speaker 2: He's just a stand up, classy guy.

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Speaker 1: Did you go to Adrianaw's farewell? No? I didn't because

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Speaker 1: there was no boos I was invited. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: there was no booze. There was six thousand dollars for

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Speaker 1: a gift. There were sausage rolls and cookies as they

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Speaker 1: and water induce. Is that what the public service is

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Speaker 1: down to now? Is that a public Is that a

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Speaker 1: public service? Farewell? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Those are decisions for public service commissioner. But I wasn't

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Speaker 2: invited to the farewell, So.

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Speaker 1: Does he know us an explanation as to why he quit? Well, look,

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Speaker 1: I mean do you know why he could?

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Speaker 2: No? No, I mean I just know that you know

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Speaker 2: we he made his own independent decision.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but did he split it? Don't you want to know?

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Speaker 1: I mean he held one of the most significant roles

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Speaker 1: in the public service of this country and took us

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Speaker 1: through an extraordinary economic journey and they just finished. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean we came back for some biscuits and some juice.

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Speaker 2: And then again, well, I mean all I can say

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Speaker 2: is that you know, we've come in as a new government.

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Speaker 2: We respect the independence as you would expect me to

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Speaker 2: say of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, as we should,

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Speaker 2: but we focused it on a mandate of killing inflation,

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Speaker 2: which it started to do, which it has done, which

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Speaker 2: is good. That has led to interest rates coming down.

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Speaker 2: That's putting money and keep his pockets. So I'm focused

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Speaker 2: on the future. I can't really deal with the past

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Speaker 2: and all and what did it? Didn't happen through that?

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Speaker 1: You appreciate your time. Christopher likes some for more from

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Speaker 1: the mic, asking breakfast listen live to news talks it'd

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Speaker 1: be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio