1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister and also the Public Sector 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Minister is with us right now. Hey Nicola, Hi Heather, 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about you sending these guys back to work. 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Are they crying? 5 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: Well, look, there are many public servants who come into 6 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 2: work every day already. Are others. I think we'll be 7 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: having another look at their arrangements. We want to see 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: more public servants coming in to the office each day, 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: and our message to all of them is pretty clear. 10 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: If it's possible for you to work in the office, 11 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: you should. So we've tuned up the expectations. 12 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: Right And how many days would you like them in 13 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: the office? 14 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: Well, that is going to vary considerably from person to person. 15 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: The number one test for us is can it be 16 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: demonstrated that you will be performing one hundred percent? And 17 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: you have to think about performance in the broader sense, 18 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: because it's not just about what how many emails you're 19 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: sending or whether you've written a report. It's are you 20 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: available to your colleagues to answer their questions? Are you 21 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: collaborating with your team, are you helping support other workers, 22 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: are you engaging with people in other parts of the agency. 23 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: All of those things are more likely to happen if 24 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: you're physically present. 25 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: But if you haven't actually set them any directives like 26 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: this is how many days you've got to be in 27 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: the office, this is how many of your staff we 28 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: expect in the office five days a week. What's to 29 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: stop them just carrying on the way they are and 30 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: saying we are working at one hundred percent. 31 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: Well, we've set three very clear expectations. The first expectation 32 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: is that these arrangements are no longer and to be 33 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: seen as an entitlement. They are by agreement only, explicit 34 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: agreement that is explicitly monitored and overseen by your manager 35 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: and chief executive. Second, where those agreements exist, they should 36 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: it can be demonstrated. The performance isn't going to be 37 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: effected in any way, and that's performance in the broader 38 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: sense of the term. And third, here's the thing I 39 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: think is going to have a big impact. We are 40 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: going to require public sector agencies to report how many 41 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: people have these arrangements for how many days, and how 42 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: many people are working from home on any given day 43 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: of the week. And once we ask chief executives to 44 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: report that, and then we can compare one agency with 45 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: another that's when we can really take a close look 46 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: at whether this is working the way people would expect, because, Heather, 47 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: if everyone's taking Fridays off, we're going to have some questions. 48 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: That way, isn't it? Oh my goodness. How long is 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: it going to take for them to actually get the 50 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: starter to you? 51 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: Well, I want it in place early next year. I've 52 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: said to the Public Service Commission that they need to 53 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: make these expectations clear to chief executives, that in fact 54 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: written to chief executives today, and that I expect them 55 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: to refresh the guidelines and to start collecting the start 56 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: as soon as possible in a way that means we 57 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: can compare it. I think chief executives should know how 58 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 2: many workers they have in the office on a given day. 59 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: But the truth is right now, in the public sector 60 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: they can't tell us, and we've got to tune that up. 61 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: Okay, Now, what proportion of the public sector have this 62 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: in their contracts? 63 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. I've made clear that all 64 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: contractual arrangements, of course, need to be upheld. New Zealand 65 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: employment law actually allows employees to ask for flexible arrangements 66 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: and people can expect those to be accommodated unless their 67 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: employer and employer can give a good reason, and the 68 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: reasons are stated in law, and they do relate to 69 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: performance and quality, so that legal expectation remains. But the 70 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: key thing here is some jobs just completely aren't suited, 71 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: of course, to working in the office. In fact, most 72 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: New Zealand workers don't have that option, because if you're 73 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: working in a supermarket, if you're a nurse, if you're 74 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: working on the roads, you don't have this option. And 75 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: many many jobs in the public service are the same. 76 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: And our view is that actually, if you're an office worker, 77 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: you shouldn't have this view that you have a special entitlement. 78 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: Actually you've got just as much of a need to 79 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: be physically present for work in many cases as any 80 00:03:59,600 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: other work. 81 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: What are you going to do though, because there are 82 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: some agencies that have already started to downsize and either 83 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: move into new buildings that are smaller because they don't 84 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: have everybody there all the time, or they're giving up floors. 85 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: What happens then, well. 86 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: This is one of the reasons I want the data, 87 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 2: because I'll tell you what. I've had more than one 88 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: minister say to me, Nikola, I went and did a 89 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: floor walk of my agency and I can't believe how 90 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: many empty desks there were. And so what we had 91 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: observe across the public service is that there does appear 92 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: to be spare capacity in offices. I know for a 93 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: fact that the Government Property Group has excess capacity across 94 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: its leases. So I don't think that that's going to 95 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: be a problem. Of course, all government departments are asked 96 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 2: to ensure that their leases are appropriate, and they'll continue 97 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: to do that, But I don't think we've got a 98 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 2: problem with a lack of space. 99 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now you obviously did this today because I wrote 100 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: a column about it yesterday and you read it. 101 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is something 102 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: we have been working on for sometime. It's very good 103 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: timing by you. 104 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: Very Look, if anybody asks you, just say, it's that 105 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: just I just need but I need to bump up 106 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: my street cred just a little bit. And it turns 107 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: out a fib here and there in Wellington's not a problem. 108 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: Do you think it's time? 109 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: Not? 110 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: Actually no, No, before we get to that, did you 111 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: see the Q and A interview? 112 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: I did, and thoughts it was quite painful to watch Heather. 113 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: It was which bit was more painful? Do you think 114 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: the bit about not having sold the car or the 115 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: bit about being confused about what's actually gonna happen with 116 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: the airport shares and the long term plan. 117 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: I found the airport one particularly troubling because I thought 118 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: there had been many attempts by the interviewer to get 119 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: a clear answer, and the answer did seem to move 120 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: around the full three hundred and sixty degrees, So it 121 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 2: was not particularly excellent. But look, Heather, I'm hesitating here 122 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: because you know, I'm sure, sure as the eggs I'm 123 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: going to have a crash of an interview one day. 124 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: That will be the case. It happens to all politicians, 125 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 2: and so I hesitate to be the first phone. 126 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: Nicola. I feel like this is a special case. 127 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 2: I think I'll be having a bit of a chat 128 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: with the PM if that happened to me. 129 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: I think we all be having a chat with a 130 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: PM at that stage. What's going on? Though? Do you 131 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: think that there needs to be a Crown observer? Have 132 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: we got to that stage? 133 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: I am really worried about our council. The city just 134 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: clearly has major issues right now. We need a council 135 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: focused on doing the basics properly. Instead, it seems to 136 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: be quite focused on infighting on cycle ways, on speed bumps, 137 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: on road cones. And I also see the dysfunction over 138 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: the long term plan and votes around the table and relationships. 139 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: Even just the way the Mayor spoke about our fellow 140 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: counselors in that interview was quite concerning, So I am 141 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: concerned about it. Ultimately, the Minister for Local Government has 142 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: a range of statutory powers available to him should those 143 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: con turns reached quite a high bar, and I know 144 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: that Minister Simeon Brown is watching Wellington City Council very closely. 145 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to hear that. Now, look on the GDP, right, 146 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: we are in a bit of trouble here. We've obviously 147 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: had a recession for two years. If you look at 148 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: GDP per capita, do you see this turning around anytime soon? 149 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: Yes, I do, But I acknowledge how tough the situation 150 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: has been, which is that we had a significant spike 151 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: in inflation, a big cost of living crisis, interest rates 152 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: jumped up and had got to very high levels, and 153 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: of course we didn't actually see any cut in interest 154 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: rates until August, and so the data for the GDP 155 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: last week was the period before that happened. What I'm 156 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: pleased to see is that we've now got forecasts for 157 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: interest rates coming down, inflation being back and banded, and 158 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: that's what you want to see, to see businesses feeling 159 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: confident again. And some surveys, the A and Z survey, 160 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: for example, show that many businesses are feeling more confident 161 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: about the future now, which is good to see. It's 162 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: not to say it's all roses for everyone, but I 163 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: think we're turning a corner. 164 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, But now the trouble we've got coming at us 165 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: is that migration's about to fall off a cliff and 166 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: that's going to cause all kinds of troubles as well, 167 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: isn't it. 168 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: Well. I think New Zealanders want to see growth happening 169 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: in a real way. So we talk about per capita GDP, 170 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: which is per person GDP, and that is the number 171 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: that I think is ultimately really important. So even if 172 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: you don't have really high numbers of people coming into 173 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: the country, you can still get productive growth, and that's 174 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: what we want to see. We want to see businesses investing, 175 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: we want to see them confident about hiring more people, 176 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: exporting to new markets, trialing new products, buying new manufacturing 177 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: kit and all of those things can happen without high immigration. 178 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: Yeah too, right, Nichola listen, Thank you, always appreciate your time. 179 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: That's Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister and the Public Sector Minister. 180 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: As for more from Heather duplessy Ellen Drive, listen live 181 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: to news talks. They'd be from four pm weekdays, or 182 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.