1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: A self described prince of the Provinces, there are a 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: few politicians like Shane Jones. He's the Minister of Oceans 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: and Fisheries, Regional Development and Resources and has been in 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: the spotlight recently for spearheading a restart and expansion of. 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: Oil and gas in New Zealand. 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: Over the years, he has faced criticism for his close 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: relationships with industry leaders over the environment. Comments like Goodbye 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: Freddy when talking about if an endangered frog stood in 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: the way of mining construction probably doesn't help. 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, Shane Jones is with. 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: Us to take us through his latest push for oil 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: and gas, changes to oceans and fisheries and whether New 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: Zealand's power. 18 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: Crisis is fixable. 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: First off, when it comes to oil and gas, remind 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: me why we're repealing the ban in the first place. 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 3: So the oil and gas industry is a contributor to 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 3: the energy mix of New Zealand. In the absence of 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 3: gas or coal, our electricity system doesn't work. We have 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: the option of importing gas, but then that worsens our vulnerability. 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 3: Although we may be forced to do it. Everyone wants 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 3: the race to achieve renewable one hundred percent electricity, but 27 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 3: in the transitional period we need fossil fuels, and I'm 28 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 3: a politician who believes we should use our own resources 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: before we import other people's resources. The two hundred million 30 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: dollars set aside as a part of the package beyond 31 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 3: the oil and gas band, is to both accelerate what 32 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: we know is already here and hopefully to durisk in 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: the future in the event that foreign firms or domestic 34 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: investors want to have another go and open up new 35 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 3: gas fields. So it's really an attempt on my part 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 3: on behalf of the government to buttress our security. 37 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Will there ever be a day give it? 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: You know, so five, ten, twenty years time when we 39 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: will be one hundred percent renewable. 40 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 3: Do you think the challenge is that the best renewable 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: option for us is more hydro or more geothermal. The 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: difficulty with solar and wind, which people are investing in, 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: is that you have to overinvest because of the unreliable 44 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 3: nature of the weather. So let's say you build a 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 3: solar farm for one hundred megawatts. Figuratively speaking, you can 46 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: really only rely on it to give you forty or 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: fifty percent of that hundred megawats, So then you have 48 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: to build two hundred megawatts so that over the lifetime 49 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 3: and the cycle of the weather, you can get up 50 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,839 Speaker 3: to one hundred percent. And just no one is ever 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 3: going to put in that additional investment. So us Kiwi's 52 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: historically what we've done. When it hasn't rained, We've drawn 53 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 3: on the natural gas, which has declined. I think it's 54 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: fair to say that the decrease is both a matter 55 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: of politics as well as mother nature. Look, I've made 56 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 3: an art form about blaming Jacinda, but a lot of 57 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: that is just because I'm a politician. But the real 58 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: danger of Jacinda's oil and gas band decision was a 59 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 3: chilled investment. It pretty much sent a signal to New 60 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: Zealand businesses and overseas investors there's no future in New 61 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 3: Zealand for this type of fuel to power the economy 62 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: because the government wants to ban it, and there are 63 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: so many other places overseas for foreigners to put the 64 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: capital in and use gas, and that's what they did. 65 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 2: So you don't think that we'll ever move one hundred 66 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: percent away from oil and gas. 67 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 3: I love sixty five. It won't happen in my lifetime. 68 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 2: In terms of geothermal energy, though, you've promised that will 69 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: double production by twenty forty at the same time as 70 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: promising to restart the oil and gas industry. 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: Is it a bit of a contradiction? There? 72 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: Are you just making sure that we've got fingers in 73 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: all of the pots. 74 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 3: My mission is to create the most competitive priced energy 75 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 3: in the OECD. I want New Zealand to have the 76 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: most affordable energy in our comparable trading partner jurisdictions. So 77 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: that's what I'm not about. And for that to happen, 78 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 3: we need to boost and shoot every arrow in the quiver. Now, 79 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: geothermal may prove to be a game changer in a 80 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 3: fundamental way if we can commercialize what's called deep seated 81 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: supercritical energy, which has down at about five kilometers in 82 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 3: the Earth, and the international experts have advised me, along 83 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 3: with our own officials, if anyone can do it, the 84 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: Keywis can do it. It is a bit of a moonbeam shot. However, 85 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 3: such as the critical importance of energy, I think that 86 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: the community should expect the government is willing to put 87 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 3: capital at a risk and take on some of these 88 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 3: long term punts, and without a doubt, geo thermal supercritical 89 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: energy is one of them. 90 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 4: Garcity is rewarded in terms of high prices instead of 91 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 4: high profits for gent tailors. And one of the things 92 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 4: we've observed in the market is that the price of 93 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 4: electricity has been decoupled from the cost of extra producing it. 94 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: So the cost of otricity, the four pasts of electricity 95 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 4: are currently well above the long run cost of building 96 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 4: new power stations and happening since twenty nineteen, and that's 97 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 4: a good sign that the market isn't delivering those sort 98 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 4: of outcomes that you'd expect from a competitive market. 99 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: In terms of Gen Taylor's in this country. You mentioned 100 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: power prices for kiwis. Does there need to be a 101 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: reform into how gen Taylors work. 102 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, Gent Taylors exist for net profit after tax. 103 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: They're commercial profit seeking entities. They don't believe it's their 104 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: role to deliver either affordable energy or energy security. And 105 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: that's the trade off that we all entered into once 106 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 3: John Key sold them to the sheer market. The position 107 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 3: that I've always advocated is there needs to be more 108 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: transparency in separation within the gent tailors, their level of power, 109 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: rivals Australian owned banks and other quite a professional relationship 110 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 3: with them. They know, if I ever have my chance, 111 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: I'm going to visit or two on them on behalf 112 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 3: of New Zealanders who are experiencing energy hardship and energy poverty. 113 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: But at the moment I don't have enough votes and 114 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: I don't have the authority to do that. It's a 115 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: deversely complex area. This electricity area. We have an organization 116 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: called the Electricity Authority. I dismissed them as chocolate teapots, 117 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: although I've started to moderate my views and they are 118 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: looking at different options as to what might be some 119 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: smarter ways to regulate the energy sector and the gent 120 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: tailors to improve competition, so we have more private sector investors, 121 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: we have a diverse range of people creating energy, maybe 122 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: closer to where the energy is actually consumed. And one 123 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: thing that I'm looking at is the allocation of over 124 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 3: one hundred million dollars into some of the lines companies 125 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: in Northland where we've got arguable the best solar and 126 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: some of the best wooden generating capacity. But the transmission pipe, 127 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 3: the garden hose going to Auckland is literally a garden hose. 128 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: It's not capable of transporting new sources of energy at volume. 129 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: If we move on, you're also Oceans and Fisheries Minister, 130 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: of course, so you need to be protecting the oceans 131 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: but also advocating for fisheries. 132 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: But that must be. 133 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: Quite difficult, hey, because if you do something that benefits 134 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: the oceans, the fisheries would presumably get pissed off, and 135 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: then obviously vice versa. As we've seen, how does that 136 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: all work? Should they be separated those portfolios? 137 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: Do you think? 138 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 3: Well, I don't remember there being an ocean's portfolio. I 139 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: think it was an innovation that came in with labor. 140 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: But I'm guided by what we campaigned on. I'm guided 141 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: by our manifesto, and we said that we were going 142 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: to generate more jobs, more investment and revenue from a 143 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: legacy industry called the commercial sea fishing industry. It's quite 144 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 3: a complex area, as you rightly point out, because lots 145 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 3: of litigation takes place. I mean, the re litigiousness in 146 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: this sector is akin to someone with a very drunken habit. 147 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: It just seems to roll on and on, which is 148 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: why I only want to see in the future responsible litigation, 149 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 3: not vexatious, frivolous or reckless litigation. And that's why we're 150 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 3: changing the law to restrict the ability of people to 151 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: litigate against the fisheries decisions unless it's tightly defined and 152 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 3: relevant to a fisheries decision. Not saving every ecosystem, not 153 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: saving the brought, or trying to pile onto fisheries the 154 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 3: responsibility for the broad health of the ocean around New Zealand. 155 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they're the ones out there though right. 156 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 3: Well, the men and women who eke out in existence, 157 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: often in the big vessels, going away for six weeks 158 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 3: at a time. They literally are taking their lives into 159 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 3: the cup of their hand. All you need to do 160 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: is watch those images of men and women going over 161 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 3: the Graymouth Bar and off the west coast of the 162 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 3: South Island to Taypotidy. There is a very lucrative fishery. 163 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 3: It's a dangerous wildlife industry. I had some experience in 164 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 3: the fishing sector when I was a younger man, advocating 165 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: for it in some respects. The lessons I learned in 166 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: the fishing industry have made me the politician who I 167 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: am today. 168 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: So you've announced reforms, obviously to the fisheries. 169 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: Actually mentioned it's the most significant for decades. 170 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: What else have you done to support fisheries lately. 171 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: Well, I've broadened my attention to both seafood farming and fisheries. 172 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: Most of the the seafood protein comes from fisheries and 173 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 3: related resources that are farmed. It's a relatively small percentage 174 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 3: that comes from wild caught fishery. But New Zealand has 175 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: one of the most enviable fisheries systems in the world. 176 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 3: There are quote a management system. So look what I've 177 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 3: sought to do since I've been the Minister is bring 178 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 3: some overdue change. The largest changes since nineteen eighty six 179 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: on the question of muscle farming and oyster farming. I 180 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: extended all the permits buy in large to twenty fifty 181 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 3: so people don't need to go and get any more permits. 182 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: They can just put the money into the business and 183 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 3: get on with running their business. I've initiated a body 184 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 3: of work with mister David Seymour, my senior colleague. He's 185 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: the deregulatory Minister, and we want to identify what rules 186 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: and regulations need to change so we can farm trout 187 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 3: and other freshwater species because we need to create new industries, 188 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 3: to create new jobs, we need to build new exports 189 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: and that's not going to happen unless we take risks. 190 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: So it's quite a busy dance card. I'm on the downside. 191 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 3: I need to be very careful that I explained to 192 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 3: the New Zealand public, in particular the recreational fishery sector, 193 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 3: that these changes are not going to hobble their rights 194 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 3: or their privileges. 195 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: And in terms of this portfolio, Shane, what have you 196 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: done to protect our oceans while you've been in charge? 197 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 3: Well, that's been addressed mostly by the Foreign Affairs and 198 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: Winston Peters he attended the Ocean's Conference. I mean, obviously 199 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: New Zealand First has supported Honorable Tummer Portucker with his 200 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: introduction of some reserves around the Hodarky Gulf. I've closed 201 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 3: down some fisheries whilst I've been the Minister, such as crayfish. 202 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: I'm about to go out and consult and closing down 203 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: the harvesting of crayfish off the entirety of the coast 204 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 3: of Northland. Given that I come from Northland, and I 205 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 3: was born and bred on Kaimwana. You might imagine it's 206 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 3: going to be quite a stiff experience. But that's a 207 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 3: small example which shows that I don't shy away from 208 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: making some of these decisions which will be to the 209 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 3: benefit of our fishery resource and the community over the 210 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 3: long term. 211 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: What about bottom trawling? Why can't we just say no 212 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: to that? 213 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: Oh, well, that's because David Attenborough's documentary was a gross 214 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 3: misrepresentation of what happens in New Zealand. And then all 215 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 3: these sort of kind of social media critics and warriors 216 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: mistakenly thought that our fishing industry is ruining our ecosystems 217 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 3: by bottom trawling. The images on that documentary are not 218 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 3: from New Zealand, and bottom trawling is a very skillful 219 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: set of operations and it's easily catastrophized. But New Zealand 220 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 3: doesn't actually apply bottom trawling to much of our economic zone. 221 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: It's just some targeted areas and a lot of the 222 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: seamounts deeply located in the ocean, they're already protected. It 223 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: is a key feature of how the industry operates at 224 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 3: the moment, and with the advent and the expansion of cameras. 225 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: I'm sure over time people's fears will be allayed, but 226 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: it is an area You're right, that is easily weaponized 227 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 3: and exaggerated. But then I often find that the green 228 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: mania drives people to catastrophize the one or three events 229 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: that happen in the fishing industry which may be egregious, 230 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: but they're not reflective of the behavior or the experience 231 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 3: of the entire sector. 232 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: Is I mean, if it is done so little though there, 233 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: does the the benefit of just saying yes, we're going 234 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: to ban it outweigh the economic benefit of bottom trawling. 235 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: Say yeah, well, I know that there is an agenda 236 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 3: to ban it in New Zealand. I know that a 237 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: number of people have been agitating to ban it in 238 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: the Hodarky Gulf. That will not be happening for as 239 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: long as I'm the Fisheries minister. Why not once you 240 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: banned one part of an activity in a certain area 241 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: of the coastline, the fishing activity just moves to another 242 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 3: area and the bottom trawling references, which is not exclusively 243 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: but it pertains to the Orange Ruffi fishery, and obviously 244 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 3: the Orange Ruffy fishery has been very low in the 245 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: past and quota dropped off substantially in order for it 246 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: to recover. It's how the system works, and we're going 247 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: to have to look at those options going forward because 248 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: there is an issue obviously where the scientists and the 249 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 3: officials in the industry are concerned about the state of 250 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 3: part of the Orange Ruffi fishery in the South Island. 251 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 3: But you can't blame bottom trawling for that. 252 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 5: Well, we'll have to wait and see when it comes 253 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 5: to actually the devil being in the details here. But 254 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 5: the idea of sustainability and Shane Jones is like fossil 255 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 5: fuels and climate action, the two do not max And 256 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 5: I think New Zealanders need to understand why this has 257 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 5: been so controversial for so long, because ultimately our fishing 258 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 5: industry is not run in a sustainable way and Shane 259 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 5: Jones wants to take the shackles off and see more 260 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 5: of our oceans exploit it. 261 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,119 Speaker 2: You've been accused of being out of touch and favoring 262 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: private or corporate interests while downplaying environmental concerns in favor 263 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: of economic development. 264 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: You must get sick of that, Shane. 265 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: Why do you think it's such a bugbear and why 266 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: do you think that you're accused of it so often. 267 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: I just think it's the blood sport of politics. I 268 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: think there's a new generation coming forward who've forgotten that 269 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: milk comes from cows, that fish is a wildlife industry 270 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 3: I just accepted for the political mix. It's got more 271 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: ubiquitous with social media. But for every person that's complaining, 272 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 3: I can tell you there's ten other Kiwis who applaud 273 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 3: and barracked me for being one of the plain, candid, 274 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: articulate men in politics who says it as it is. 275 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 3: And it's like I said, I know that triggers responses, 276 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 3: but then that's what politics is about. And I say 277 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 3: to all my critics, meet me at the ballot box. 278 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: So you're not a puppet for private interests. 279 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 3: I'm a great supporter and promoter for investment, for jobs, 280 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 3: for economic growth. And I say to the viewers who 281 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 3: are many and listeners to your program, we are going 282 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 3: through some severe economic challenges. We have to become familiar, 283 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 3: comfortable with making trade offs. And because our society has 284 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 3: become so metropolitanized, far too many of my critics have 285 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 3: forgotten that the wildlife industries, the farming industry, the growing industry. 286 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 3: They represent the bulk of our export earnings and New 287 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: Zealand will never be self sufficient unless it can use 288 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 3: its natural resources boost its income internationally. Because to the 289 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 3: best of my ability, I sought to convince my critics 290 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 3: living in Auckland you don't grow rich by doing each 291 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: other's laundry and shame. 292 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: Lastly, what does the future look like for you? 293 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 2: Are you already thinking about campaign, you know for election 294 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six? 295 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: Is now all go? Or do you get to wait 296 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: a few months till next year? 297 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 3: Well, obviously I've got my constitutional responsibilities as a cabinet 298 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: minister and most of those decisions, not all, are made 299 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: under the law, so I can be held legally accountable 300 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: for a number of my fisheries decisions and expansion of mining. 301 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 3: As you know, New Zealand is now regarded as a 302 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: consequence of the Fraser Institute analysis of mining destinations, New 303 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 3: Zealand has gone from last to number fifteen in the 304 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 3: whole world in terms of a desirable investment destination for mining. 305 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: But that's what I was asked to do by the 306 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: Prime Minister. That's what I was asked to do by 307 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: our government, and I'm going to continue to expand the 308 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: footprint of jobs investment. I've got no time for that 309 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 3: duo perched two hundred and fifty meters up in the 310 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 3: sky on top of a coal mine down in the 311 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 3: West Coast. I think that their beliefs have turned into 312 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 3: a statement of personal arrogance and conceit, and now they're 313 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 3: endangering all those jobs and their coal mine. And I 314 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 3: just think that it's reckless and it's as indefensible that 315 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: their personal luxury beliefs are now regarded as of such 316 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: importance that it would wipe out hundreds of jobs on 317 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 3: the West Coast. 318 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 2: You can see where they're coming from, though. I mean, 319 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: when we do talk about oil and gas and coal. 320 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: Burning, etc. 321 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 2: Then you've got a planet that's heating, You've got kids 322 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: worried about their future due to climate change. We're getting bigger, 323 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: scarier storms. 324 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: We had a tsunami warning the other week. 325 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: I mean, so you do understand people's concerns when we talk. 326 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: About oil and gas and everything. 327 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that there's a toss up 328 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 2: to be had between saying, look, we need this in 329 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 2: order to have energy and be able to turn the 330 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: lights on in the future. But here we do concede 331 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: and say, look we are looking other options. 332 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: I think often I get a bad rap. I'm the 333 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 3: politician that spent over two hundred million dollars dedicated to 334 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 3: protecting our stop banks, to stop rivers from flooding. And 335 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 3: I've been told by various regional councils if that money 336 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 3: hadn't have been allocated and spent by my good self, 337 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 3: areas such of Taradale would have been wiped out. I'm 338 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 3: the guy at a time of fiscal hardship dedicated sixty 339 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: odd million dollars to exploring for supercritical energy and if 340 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 3: we can pull it off, it'll completely invert the price 341 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 3: equation of New Zealand's energy. Also the guy funding at 342 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 3: the moment small communities from Stuart Island, Chatham Islands, the 343 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: East Cape, Northland community renewable energy projects. But it's easier 344 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 3: to focus on Shane Jones as someone who backs fossil 345 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 3: fuels that's going to fry the planet. And look, you 346 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: can't fight that level of emotional virtue signaling with facts. 347 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: And that's what brings me up with my own brand 348 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 3: of hyperboleon rhetoric. And all those bloodites that met their 349 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 3: match and much to a Shane. 350 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Shane. 351 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Bye. 352 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 353 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 354 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 355 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 356 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 357 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or. 358 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 359 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: another look behind the headlines.