1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: being urged to create a new ministerial portfolio to focus 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: solely on organized crime. It's the number one threat to 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: our national security and as such there should be a 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 2: government minister put in charge of tackling it. And that's 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: according to a report from experts advising the Coalition. In 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: recent years there have been record busts at the border 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: as global crime syndicates, including Mexican cartels and outlaw biking 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: gangs have targeted New Zealand as a small but lucrative market. 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: So why are we losing the fight against drugs and 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: organized crime? And what can be done to give us 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: a better shot at tackling the issue. Today on the 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: Front Page, the Advisory Groups chairman and Meredith Connell Criminal 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: Prosecutor Steve Simon is with us to discuss how New 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: Zealand might appoint a minister of mafia's so Steve. This 18 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: Ministerial Advisory Group was appointed by Cabinet back in February 19 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 2: to give government advice about how to overhaul the ways 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,279 Speaker 2: in which law enforcement and regulatory agencies can work together 21 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: in this space. Tell me how has that process been. 22 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 3: It's been especially been quite an exciting process. I've been 23 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 3: a Crown prosecutor at Meredith Connell for twenty years and 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 3: so during that time I've done some very serious cases 25 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: for the police, and then I migrated to doing lots 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: of serious cases for different government departments, and during that 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: time I saw a lot of frustrations that they were 28 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 3: in the covet agencies of could we do more. So 29 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 3: it's actually been quite invigorating to be part of a 30 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 3: group that's just there to finances and I've got a 31 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 3: really good committee, really good crew. We have robust arguments 32 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 3: trying to get to the best outcome we can and 33 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: it's been really good so far. We are at this 34 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: precipice where we've been doing these monthly reports and we're 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 3: about to finish our final report for September and then 36 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 3: we'll be in the hands of the government to see 37 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 3: what they do with that. But we are hopeful because 38 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 3: the support we've had indicates that the government is interested 39 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 3: in being tough on crime, and particularly tough on organized crime. 40 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: So we're hopeful that all of our hard work will 41 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 3: pay off. 42 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: And what have some of those discussions been around. What 43 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: are some of the themes over the last nearly a year. 44 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, what we were asked to do was to say, look, 45 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 3: organized crime is a big issue, and it's a big 46 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 3: issue now already in New Zealand. But if we look 47 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 3: even across to Australia and see where they are at now, 48 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: that kind of the ghost of Christmas future for us. 49 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: We can see where it's going to go. And unfortunately 50 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 3: it's a pretty bad picture. Not through anything that New 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: Zealanders are doing. It's just we are an environment where 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: we've got a pretty good economy and we are prepared 53 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 3: to pay high prices for things like drugs. We are 54 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: vulnerable to things like fraud and so we're a risky market. 55 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: And so what we've tried to do is in these 56 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 3: monthly reports kind of break the subject up. And so 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 3: our first report was trying to identify how bad the 58 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: problem is and so that for you know, your listeners, 59 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 3: your watchers, they could see what we mean when we 60 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 3: say organized crime, not just guys riding around on motorbikes, 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: but large or international, almost corporatized organized crime. Our next 62 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: report in April looked at chasing the money, and so 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: I'm very grateful that one of our committee members is 64 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: Craig Hamilton, who is a former police officer who knows 65 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 3: everything you need to know about organized crime and relation 66 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 3: to money laundering and proceeds. He helped us with that, 67 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: and then in May we looked at We've looked at 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 3: the role of corruption that being a growing theme. We've 69 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 3: looked at the community, We've looked at information sharing, and 70 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 3: we're just about to reach this report which is about accountability. 71 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: How bad is the problem? Can you quantify it? 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 3: A very good question. No, we can't, and the reason 73 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: we can't is because part of our problem has been 74 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 3: although we've recognized organized crime as a problem for New 75 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 3: Zealand and we'll get worse, our difficulty has been we 76 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: don't really have metrics. Right. So, in the same way 77 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: I could tell you a by the health system by 78 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: how long it takes some to get through accident an emergency, 79 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: or how are my kids are doing at school based 80 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: on how they're grading is and how that meets against 81 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 3: national standards, we don't have the same kind of metrics 82 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: in relation to organized crime and what we see from 83 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 3: international experiences. We really need to have that. We currently 84 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 3: have our wastewater testing, which does not paint a good picture. 85 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 3: You know, we saw its spike last year and effectively 86 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 3: double yeah, and so and it's doubled and it hasn't reduced, 87 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 3: its flat lined, and so we're now it seems consuming 88 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: twice as much meth and feto men as we were 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: last year, which is incredibly troubling. So what we see 90 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 3: is we don't have enough metrics to know exactly how 91 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 3: bad the problem is, except when you talk to enforcement agencies, 92 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 3: they will tell you it's bad. 93 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: Well, police and customers a routinely intercept massive amounts of 94 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: drugs at the border. We're talking hundreds of kilos at 95 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: the border. And I spoke to Harold senior reporter Jared 96 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: Savage actually about this subject. 97 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 4: Fifteen nine years ago, you know, one kilo of myth 98 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 4: was a big deal, and I was a front page story, 99 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 4: and you know, like literally a front bach story. And 100 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 4: these days, you know, even the smallest of drug dealers 101 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 4: we have far more than a kilo in the back 102 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 4: of the car. We're talking imports of four or five, six, 103 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 4: seven hundred kilograms. 104 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm showing my age, but I've been around as 105 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: a prosecutor since some of the first intercepted drug cases 106 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 3: and we were talking, you know, less than a kilogram 107 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: of methamphetamine, whereas now on the bus we're talking about 108 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: in the hundreds of kilograms of methamphetamine. And Jared Savage, 109 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: to show his age, has also been around on those 110 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: same cases. It's interesting you look at his latest book 111 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: and it's interesting for me reading through it because it 112 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 3: reads more like a yearbook than it does work of fiction. 113 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: But what's troubling about that is these are all true cases. 114 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 3: This is what is going on in New Zealand's environment, 115 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: and we are seeing this real kind of narco's approach 116 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: to organized crime in New Zealand. 117 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: We as a government, we've done a lot of work 118 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: around public facing stuff that people see, the game patches, 119 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: the sentence saying but this is what's in behind driving 120 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: this prime trend that we need to get on top of. 121 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: And the first part is building at public awareness. It's 122 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: about a step change in the way we approach. We 123 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: have always operated in silos and our enforcement agencies we 124 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: work cooperatively at the ground level. We hadn't been very 125 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: good at a high level, allowing these leavers to be polls. 126 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: So in the report, the latest one, you said, people 127 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: across a range of sectors, industries and roles are working 128 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: hard to play that part, but the system is not 129 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: optimizing their work in a way that it should tell 130 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: me a bit more about about that. 131 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: As a starter, we should say we've got good people 132 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: in New Zealand. And it's one of the things you 133 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 3: see when you go over and see other countries, see 134 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: how they're struggling, and you come back and by and 135 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: large we've got really credible people, hard working, really passionate staff, 136 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: and our police force and all of our enforcement agencies. 137 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 3: I've worked with a number of those people over the years. 138 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: The difficulty that we've got is it's kind of it's siloed, 139 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: and so we'll have the police have got a huge 140 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 3: variety of work to look at, you know, from domestic 141 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 3: violence through to organized crime, through frauds, through a variety 142 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: of different sectors. So it's very hard for them to 143 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: target the organized crime piece alone, even more so when 144 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: they need to rely upon other agencies to help them. 145 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: A good example is perhaps mb MB is a large 146 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,599 Speaker 3: government organization which has got multifaceted their core business objective 147 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: for the last few years has been to be the 148 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 3: easiest place in the world to do business, which is 149 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 3: great and we do want that because we want our 150 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: economy to thrive. At the same time, our transnational organized 151 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: crime strategy was to be the hardest place in the 152 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 3: world for organized crime to do business. So you can 153 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: see the tension for them in terms of how they 154 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: play their role in supporting police and customs and other 155 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: agencies to target organized crime. And so what we've said is, look, 156 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: we need to rather than have this split over a 157 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: variety of different ministers, we need this to be brought 158 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 3: under one organized crime minister. One minister is responsible both 159 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: to Cabinet for this response but also to the public. 160 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 3: So when your listeners, your watchers come and say, well, 161 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: who can we. 162 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: Look to us, where does the buck stop? 163 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: Where does the buck stop? We have one minister to 164 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: answer that question and then supported so that that minister 165 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: can get answers and results from those different agencies. We 166 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: still want the police to police, we still want customs 167 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 3: to do their job, we still want mb to do 168 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 3: their job, and we can say the same with all 169 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 3: the agencies. We just need them to have some support 170 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: to make sure that they're doing the best job they can. 171 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 3: So collectively, as a team, we can be fighting organized crime. 172 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: And what might that ministry look like and how might 173 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: it operate? 174 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing we've said is we want any 175 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: We want the Minister to have responsibility for the organized 176 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 3: the transnational series organized crime plan, so they're in charge 177 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: of that. 178 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 2: How about thirteen agencies involved in This is. 179 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 3: About thirteen agencies and you can play a good pub 180 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: quiz game of trying to figure out exactly who they are. 181 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: And even amongst them, there's some that are split. You know. 182 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 3: For an example, an MB Immigration has a really important 183 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 3: role to play in terms of trying to address migrant exploitation. 184 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 3: At the same time they have the company's office which 185 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: can has been exploited sometimes for money laundering and the likes. 186 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: So even within the ministries there's split functions and so 187 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 3: you've got so many different people trying to respond to this. 188 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 3: We're just trying to say, let's align all those us 189 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: and put them in one place and the support that 190 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: minister with a small team that can help. We don't 191 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 3: want to recommend an agency, we don't want to recommend 192 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 3: a department. They're not trending anyway, but I don't want 193 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: to Our committee didn't want to recommend something that means 194 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 3: in a year's time there'll be an office with another 195 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: set of staff doing another set of things. We wanted 196 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: to see results straight away. So we've said there should 197 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: be a small elite team that helps that minister and 198 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 3: really helps energize the agencies to do their job as 199 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: best as they can. 200 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: And I know that you've mentioned nor is it holding 201 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: to account those who are not meeting expectations. So who 202 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: are we talking about there and how do we hold 203 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 2: people to account. 204 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: What we've seen is there are some agencies doing an 205 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: incredible job. Police Customs are doing an incredible job. Other 206 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 3: agencies are not doing as good a job. And so 207 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: our point is to say we should be in supporting 208 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 3: and encouraging the great work we've got. We should really 209 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 3: be putting our resources behind helping those initiatives, helping those 210 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 3: who are trying to do their best with organized crime. Similarly, 211 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: we need to say if people are not coming to 212 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 3: the party and doing as much as they can, we 213 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: need to look at that and say, are we best 214 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 3: put our resources there or shall we give it to 215 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: someone who will use it. But more fundamentally than that, 216 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: what we've heard from these agencies is the guys at 217 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: the front line are saying, it needs to be clear 218 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: what you want us to do. And so what we've 219 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 3: seid is when we have this organized Crime Minister and 220 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: have this secretary to support staff to help them, we 221 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: need to help the agencies with a work plan and 222 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: much the same you would have in a business, working 223 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 3: through what are our priorities, what are the things we 224 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: can do? And so we want to create a shopping 225 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 3: list for these agencies to say, what are all the 226 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: things you could do to help the fight against organized crime, 227 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: whether it's your agencies direct fight against crime or helping 228 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: another agency. How can we provide you a list so 229 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 3: you know what you've got to do and then when 230 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 3: we work through the course of a year, we can 231 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: see whether you've done it or not. 232 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: And of course this problem hasn't just popped up overnight 233 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: or over the last couple of years. Hey, I saw 234 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: that there was an example given about the Organized and 235 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand and that was set 236 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: up back in two thousand and eight, but that ended 237 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: up being a little bit of a failure. 238 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: It started off well, it had some good people on 239 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 3: it had great intentions and was perhaps a symbol of 240 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 3: how even at that stage kind of when methanphetamine was 241 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: just really kicking off in New Zealand, we saw the 242 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 3: issue and we saw we needed to get on top 243 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 3: of it, but it kind of fell apart. It fell 244 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 3: apart through a lack of leadership, a lack of resources. 245 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 3: And what that illustrates. The lessons there for us are 246 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 3: one to say, look, we've had to go at it, 247 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: then it hasn't worked. What lessons can we learn from that? Now? 248 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 3: What we know is we have to have very strong leadership. 249 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 3: So whoever the minister is, if the government accepts our recommendation, 250 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 3: whoever the minister is, will need to be strong, will 251 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: need to be bold. The support team that they have 252 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: will need to be bold. And what we need to 253 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 3: do is have followed through. They will need to have 254 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 3: resources to help them achieve what they need to achieve, 255 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 3: and we need to have them be accountable themselves. We're 256 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 3: proposing things like this minister should stand in front of 257 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: the government instead of standing in front of Cabinet every 258 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: year with a report explaining where we're at in our 259 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 3: fight against organized crime. We've been doing these monthly reports. 260 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 3: We were coming out doing this talking to the public, 261 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: and we're saying we should have more of that. The 262 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: public is desperate to know what we are doing in 263 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: this fight against organized crime. We feel like they should. 264 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: Know well because it is a fight that we are 265 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: essentially losing at the moment. 266 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 3: We are and that's not through lack of hard work 267 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 3: and great energy. It's just that the problem that is 268 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 3: coming to us from overseas is so significant. We're seeing 269 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 3: the scale of drug production overseas is overwhelming. Now. Whereas 270 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: we once saw small methamphetamine labs happening in New Zealand, 271 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: we're seeing large scale uber labs happening in South America 272 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: and in Asia, and those drugs are coming to New Zealand. 273 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 3: We're seeing fraud, not being some Nigerian prince calling you 274 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: to ask you for your bank account, but large scale 275 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 3: schemes where they're using AI to try and develop profiles 276 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: so they can trick you into providing details. So the 277 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: scale and complexity we're seeing now of organized crime is growing, 278 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: and New Zealand, like other countries around the world, is 279 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 3: falling victim to that, and so we're saying we really 280 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: needed to take the fight to organized crime. 281 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 2: Have you had any response from the government this far. 282 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: Are The response so far has been really positive. I 283 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 3: have to say Minister Costello, who is the Minister for 284 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 3: Customs Associate Minister for Police, she's a former police officer 285 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: and so when she was setting up our minister or 286 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: advisory group, she was very clear to us to be bold. 287 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 3: She was very clear to us that's not just rhetoric. 288 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: She has through her time during the police and then 289 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 3: her time as a private investigator scene how there's lots 290 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 3: of promises are made but not much follow through and 291 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 3: so for us, her point was you need to be 292 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: very clear and come up with bold initiatives and then 293 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 3: leave it for the government to push those through and 294 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 3: see if we can support those. I've had great meetings 295 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,119 Speaker 3: with Minister Mitchell, I've had great meetings with Minister Goldsmith. 296 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 3: I'm working my way around a number of the other ministers. 297 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 3: They care and what has been really interesting for me 298 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 3: is to see the passion with which they want to 299 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: confront this problem. And what we're trying to do is 300 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 3: create an opportunity to say in our September paper we 301 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: will have the solution and what we're looking for is 302 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 3: government getting behind that. 303 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: Well, nothing gets more bold, I think than suggesting another 304 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: ministerial portfolio. Hey, what do you reckon? The chances are 305 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: by say this time next year, we will have a 306 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: mafia minister or something so to speak. 307 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 3: I'm optimistic and I think we could do variations of that. 308 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 3: We could lose lesser degrees of that. You could take 309 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 3: one of the existing portfolios, like the Police, like the 310 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: Ministry of Justice and add on to those, but that 311 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: would be ignoring the problem we see, which is we 312 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 3: need one place to come to so we know who 313 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 3: is accountable for this. And don't get me wrong, that 314 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: will be a big task for that minister. There will 315 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: be big issues for them to face now and in 316 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: the future, and that's why it's going to have to 317 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 3: be someone who's pretty robust. 318 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: Do you see that responsibility lying upon someone like the 319 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 2: police minister, because I know that. You know, in cabinet 320 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: reshuffles past, oftentimes ministers do get multiple portfolios, sometimes ones 321 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: that interconnect with each other. How important is it to 322 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: keep the police minister and say a Minister for organized 323 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: crime separate. 324 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: I don't think that matters too much. As long as 325 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 3: the minister who takes hold of this portfolio is bold, 326 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 3: and as long as that minister understands the nature of 327 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 3: the organized crime problem and is aware of what's happening 328 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 3: overseas so they can see where it's trending as well, 329 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 3: and so that we can make sure that we resource 330 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 3: it properly. You will oftentimes see ministers hold a number 331 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 3: of different portfolios. What we need now is someone bold. 332 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Steve, You're welcome. 333 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 3: Welcome. 334 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 335 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 336 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 337 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 338 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 339 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 340 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.