1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: China recently rolled out the red. 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: Carpet to some of the world's most controversial leaders in 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 2: a massive display of military might. It was all laughs, 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: hugs and handholding, amongst the likes of Russia's Vladimir Putin, 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: India's Narendra Modi, North Korea's Kim Jong un, and China's 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: Xijingping in Beijing. The carefully choreographed summit was designed to 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: Showcase's vision of a new world order, a challenge to 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: the West, a reset in global rules. But what does 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: this very public display of affection actually mean and does 13 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: it spell trouble for the Indo Pacific Today on the 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: front page, Why Kato University into National Law Professor Al 15 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: Gillespie is with us to unpack these relationships and what 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: it could mean for our part of the globe. First off, 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: our you would have seen China's summit and military parade. 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: What did you make of it? 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: A number of things. 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 4: I mean that the summit is about showing for China 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 4: that there's a multipolar world and that America is not 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 4: the only player that can direct the international attention going 23 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 4: forward militarily. With regards to the parade, I saw a 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 4: projection of force, and this is not unusual for totalitarian countries, 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 4: but it is concerning because it and the rhetoric that 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 4: came from the event also was about war or peace, 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 4: and so I did find it a little bit threatening. 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: It's been called a defiant push against US led world order. 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: Would you agree? 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, completely, And it's in terms of the the first part, 31 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 4: because you're seeing a number of countries coming together, many 32 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 4: of them which are feeling either economically or politically threatened 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 4: by the United States, saying if we group together, we 34 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 4: won't be fragmented and we will put up an our 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 4: turnative order. The key point for me is that it's 36 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 4: China which is leading misorder, not Russia. 37 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: The closeness on display between some of these leaders was 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: actually pretty extraordinary. 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: I thought. 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: I recall a clip of Putin and Mody holding hands 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: and laughing together, and then there was a lot of 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 2: warm language between all of them, are sharing of jokes, 43 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: and Putin that said, at one point, our relations are 44 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: at an unprecedentedly high level. 45 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: What do you think this means? 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 4: I think mister Trump has made his enemies very great. 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 4: He hasn't made America greater again. He's made those adversaries 48 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 4: against them. He's forced them into a union. And now 49 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 4: because of the economic and political challenges, they're becoming tighter 50 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 4: with India in particular, like that their relationship ship is 51 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 4: already India and America is difficult because you're got up 52 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 4: to fifty percent tariffs on some India goods now and 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 4: half of that twenty five percent is because they've been 54 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 4: buying Russian oil. What you're seeing with this public display 55 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 4: between Mody and Putin is two fingers to mister Trump 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 4: that they're going to continue. They're not being cowered into 57 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 4: a submission of what the Americans may want. 58 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: And even Mody's presence there at the China summit to 59 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 2: begin with is a massive display, isn't it. 60 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 3: Well. 61 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 4: India has always been non aligned for a very long period, 62 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 4: which means it's neither been neither towards the Western countries 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 4: or towards China and Russia, and its relationship with China 64 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 4: has for a long time been very fraught and almost 65 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 4: on the verge of conflict. But what you're seeing now 66 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 4: is a realignment, and so what the West wanted was 67 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 4: that through the quad relationship that with Japan, the United States, Australia, 68 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 4: and India, that they could stay tight. But now you're 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 4: seeing India starting to move more towards the other countries, 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 4: not towards the Western ones, and it doesn't help with 71 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 4: the economic pressure that mister Trump is currently putting on them, 72 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 4: and he wants them to make a choice, and it's 73 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 4: possible they they make a choice, but not the way that. 74 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: We want it. 75 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: How does India's closeness with Putin and G complicate our 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: relationship with India, because of course we've tried for decades 77 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 2: to get a strong trading deal with India. 78 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 4: Many countries have tried to get a strong trading deal 79 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 4: with India, and they're happy to trade until it comes 80 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 4: to the discussion of agriculture. And that's because they've got 81 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 4: a very food reliant population and they want self sufficiency, 82 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 4: which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. But 83 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 4: going forward is going to be hard because if mister 84 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 4: Trump continues to push these sanctions on India of up 85 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 4: to fifty percent, he will expect similar like minded countries 86 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 4: to act in concert, and so that will put pressure 87 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 4: on Australia and New Zealand and the Europeans to see 88 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 4: if they. 89 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 3: Too will follow suit. 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 4: But all that will depend upon what happens in Ukraine 91 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 4: and whether the peace is or is not achieved. The 92 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 4: point here is that mister Trump's target is India, not China, 93 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 4: and so he's trying to make an example of them 94 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: over China. If he did the same trick with China, 95 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 4: it could become much more complicated. 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: Well, how has the US president taken all of this. 97 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: With regards to the military display. 98 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: With regards to not being invited, It seems I. 99 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 4: Would imagine mister Trump is currently in a position of 100 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 4: somewhere between envy and jealousy because he had his own 101 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 4: military display and it was somewhat lack luster affair and 102 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 4: there wasn't a huge turnout of people. But what you're 103 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 4: seeing with the Chinese one is that you've got a 104 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 4: huge amount of dignitaries, you put a massive display of force, 105 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 4: and you are seeing a counter approach to the American dominance. 106 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 4: And so now what I imagine is that he will 107 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 4: try to organize a counter parade with the US Navy 108 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 4: to celebrate their two hundred and fiftyth anniversary where he 109 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 4: wants to try to outdo the opposition. If it stays 110 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 4: like this, it's fine. If we have competitions between marching nations, 111 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 4: it's great too long as doesn't escalate. I'm okay with that. 112 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 4: It's a waste of money, but it's a lot safer 113 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 4: than the alternative. 114 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: Well, I did see a post that he made about 115 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: his feelings, and they were pretty clear. He said, many 116 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: Americans died in China's quest for victor and glory. I 117 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: hope that they are rightfully honored and remembered for their 118 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: bravery and sacrifice. Please give my warmest regards to Vladimir 119 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: Putin and Kim Jong Un, as you conspire against the 120 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: United States of America. 121 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 4: So two things here first, or you know, the purpose 122 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 4: of the commemoration was the end of the Second World War, 123 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 4: and it's good to commemorate that because we fought a 124 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 4: common enemy. 125 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: We fought against fascism. 126 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 4: We decided to create a new, raw spased international order, 127 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 4: and that was China through the two parts of its operation, 128 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 4: that the communists and the nationalists. It was America, it 129 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 4: was England, and that's good to remember that. The heart, 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 4: and that's a fear point. But the second point is 131 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 4: the military projection after that, and that's where it becomes 132 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 4: more difficult, because often you would not send dignitaries to 133 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 4: these kind of locations to kind of support them and 134 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: what they're trying to do. 135 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: I saw G at the summit of leaders, and they 136 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: were all non Western countries. He said to them, we 137 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: must continue to take a clear stand against he Jeminism 138 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: and power politics a swipe at Trump right here. 139 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: Jeminism, what does that mean. 140 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 4: It means a world where one group controls the power, 141 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 4: the hegemony, and often they control it in a direct 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 4: and an indirect way. 143 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 3: And what he's. 144 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: Suggesting here is that that dominance of the United States 145 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 4: is no longer the only game in town. He's suggesting 146 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 4: that there's an alternative way for world order. And the 147 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 4: audience he's talking to is not the West, it's not 148 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: the United States, it's the Indo Pacific, it's Africa, it's 149 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 4: Latin America. And so what mister G is trying to 150 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 4: say is that we don't have to go down the 151 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 4: American route. Is an alternative. 152 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: Putin G and Kim. 153 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: It's their first appearance together in public analysts were watching 154 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: closely to see whether the trio's chumminess I suppose, might 155 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: signal closer defense relations and whether that could alter any 156 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: military calculus in the Asia Pacific region. Seeing those three 157 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: so close together, should that raise alarm bells for the 158 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: Indo Pacific They should. 159 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 4: Have been going off some time ago, because you've got 160 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 4: three very powerful nuclear nations. China is linked by treaty 161 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 4: defensive treaty to North Korea. North Korea is linked by 162 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: defensive treaty to Russia. Russia and China, don't you'd have 163 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 4: that link. But between the three of them, they are 164 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 4: a trio and they are formidable. 165 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 5: And now the former premier is smiling with leaders of 166 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 5: regimes who suppress freedoms on a daily basis. Dan Andrews, 167 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 5: hang your head in shamee. But that's just the issue, 168 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 5: isn't it. He's never had any shame, not on anything, 169 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 5: even China. 170 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: The trip was not about me, and again with respect, 171 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: it was not about you. It was about the future 172 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: of Victoria. 173 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 5: Oh, it was never about Victoria. It was always about 174 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 5: Dan Andrews. 175 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: So I know that ex Victoria Premiere Dan Andrews has 176 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: gotten a lot of flak for attending the event, and 177 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 2: he's had to defend himself. 178 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: John Key and Helen Clark were also there. 179 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: Clark said that her presence was more of a line 180 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 2: call when she told arn Z, I think this all 181 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: gets a bit silly. We have to engage. We have 182 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: to be very clear what our own values are. 183 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: So when it. 184 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: Comes to New Zealand's relationship with China, how much should 185 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 2: we engage given the company that they keep. 186 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 4: We're not at war with China. We don't have sanctions 187 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 4: against China. We have a number of difficult relationships right now, 188 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 4: and you can think of the cos you can think 189 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 4: of the security threat assessment, and you can think of 190 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 4: the military exercises and matasmen. None of this suggests we're 191 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 4: in conflict, but we are in troubled waters. We need 192 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: to keep lines of communication open. They are a friend 193 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 4: to us, they are very important to our economic prosperity. 194 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, we need to be able 195 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: to say where we disagree with them about certain matters 196 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 4: of policy. 197 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: Why do you think the public gets so angry about 198 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: these dignitaries attending this event? Is it because it was 199 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: kind of a military focused display. 200 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 4: There's a number of things in this discussion. First off, 201 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: they went as private people that they did not go 202 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 4: as ambassadors or diplomats or heads of state of our country. 203 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 4: They are both former prime ministers, but it was a 204 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 4: personal decision on them to make that choice. They didn't 205 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 4: travel at the expense of the New Zealand taxpayer, as 206 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 4: I understand it. But this is something which is a 207 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 4: relationship with class and with Key and with China, both 208 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 4: positive relationships. They built an economic and social relationship between 209 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 4: our countries which has produced a lot of good And 210 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: if it was about the commemoration of the end of 211 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 4: the Second World War, then that's positive. And I would 212 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: hope that they accept similar invitations to mister Trump's next 213 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 4: parade for the celebration of the US Navy. The problem 214 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 4: is when you accept an invitation to a military parade 215 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 4: as opposed to a commemoration, and these two things became 216 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 4: merged in that situation. The most important piece of advice 217 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 4: I would say is be careful of the fighter opportunity 218 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: at the end, because there are certain people you don't 219 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 4: want to be in the same frame with. 220 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that one that you know, did you 221 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: see that big one with all of the world leaders, 222 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: and you've got you know, the President of Iran and 223 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: Kim Jong un, Putin Ji or basically a role call 224 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: of all the people perhaps that you didn't want to 225 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: be in a photo with them. Then you've got Sky 226 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: and News pointing out Dan Andrews, and of course John 227 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 2: and Helen Clark were in that. 228 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: Photo somewhere else as well. 229 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: But I just thought that was interesting being so close 230 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: to those other people. 231 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 4: That's a difficult call. I personally would have done it differently. 232 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 4: There are some photos you want to be in and 233 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: some photos you don't want to be in. And it's 234 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 4: one thing to commemorate at the end of the Second 235 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 4: World War. It's another thing to be involved in the 236 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 4: very militaristic display of the projection of power of countries, 237 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: which we have differences with. 238 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: Watching the commemorations right from the beginning of the week, 239 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: so you had the China summit and then you had 240 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: the military operations. Obviously it did kind of seem like 241 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 2: that Vladimir Putin was a guest of honor unofficially, I suppose, 242 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 2: would you agree, I'd. 243 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 3: Say almost officially, not just unofficially. 244 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: To me. 245 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 4: One of the insights is the degree of rapport between 246 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 4: g and Putin, and Modi and Putin, and so this 247 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 4: kind of idea that the countries which are opposed to 248 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 4: the Western way of working in the international relations are 249 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 4: alienated and not working together as mistaken. I see a 250 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 4: depth of relationship and a friendship, and they're working quite 251 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 4: closely together. The challenge going forward is unless we can 252 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 4: start to resolve some of these deeper disputes like Ukraine 253 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 4: and potentially also Palestine, then that chasm between the West, 254 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 4: which I put New Zealand and with the European connection 255 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 4: and America and the rest could only get wider. 256 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that you point out as well 257 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: that we shouldn't assume that they're not all working together. 258 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 2: I saw that there was some conversation around Vladimir Putin 259 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: confirming that in his sideline chats with other world leaders 260 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: he would discuss what happened in Alaska with Donald Trump, 261 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: and the media just kind of thought, well, there you go. 262 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: You know, he's having these open conversations with leaders of 263 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: the East World, so to speak. 264 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 4: And as mister Putin's talking with his friends and colleagues, 265 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 4: mister Trump is busially talking to his friends and colleagues. 266 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 4: And so you'll be aware right now that Judith Collins 267 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 4: is in Ukraine and is in Europe, and this is 268 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 4: partly about reaffirming our relationship with Ukraine and also potentially 269 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 4: our role in the Coalition of the Willing. And so 270 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 4: what we've got to wait to see is that the 271 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 4: three of them come together Zelenski, Putin and Trump and 272 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 4: then how that all falls out. 273 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: It's going to be difficult. 274 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 4: Unless you can start to resolve these difficulties, that chasm 275 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 4: between the Western world and the non Western world will 276 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 4: only get wider. 277 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: In terms of the Pacific Islands, we talked about the 278 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: Endo Pacific, the Pacific Islands Forum is this week, I 279 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: saw that the Solomon Islands Prime Minister Jeremiah Minelle has 280 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: succeeded in his wish to kick out twenty one donor countries, 281 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: including the US, China and Taiwan from actually coming. He'll 282 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: allow them to come next year, or they'll be able 283 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: to come next year. 284 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: Rather, what's the signal. 285 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: Eificance of this And do you think it's a good 286 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: move given what we've just seen with the China summit 287 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: and the military parade. 288 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: I think it's a poor move. I think it's not 289 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 4: contrary to the Pacific spirit. And I think also if 290 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 4: you've got countries which are donors in the region, you 291 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 4: need to have them at the meetings, not external to 292 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 4: the meetings, because the more coordination and transparency you can 293 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 4: have with those who are interested in the development, the 294 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: sustainable development of the Pacific, the better. I think excluding 295 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 4: them as a political move, but it's not in the 296 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 4: interest of the Pacific. 297 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: Do you think excluding them was to exclude any questions 298 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: about the Solomon Islands deal with China or have not 299 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: the attention taken away from the forum to have to 300 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: answer questions about their involvement with Taiwan and the US 301 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: and such. 302 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 4: I think if the media does its job, they will 303 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 4: get those questions anyway. But what I see here is 304 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 4: that the situation the Pacific is changing. Almost every month 305 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 4: you see a change in it, and with New Zealand 306 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 4: obviously we saw the change into Cook Island. And there's 307 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 4: going to be a lot of difficult questions and debate 308 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 4: that will be held behind closed doors. But excluding the 309 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 4: countries which are the answer, the economic answer to the 310 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 4: sustainability of this region is counterintuitive. 311 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: And just lastly, and in terms I know that I 312 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: keep talking about the Chinese military parade, right, but when 313 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: you see those images of you know, those thousands and 314 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: thousands of soldiers goose stepping along us, alongside Tianaman Square, 315 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: it is a massive spectacle and a massive display. It's 316 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: their first military parade in six years. And if we 317 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: have a look at the military parade, I see China 318 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: unveiled a lot of new war technology. 319 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: So you've got the likes of sea drones, laser weapons. 320 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:51,119 Speaker 2: Reuters is calling it China's most advanced display of military 321 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: weaponry yet. 322 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: Now, while I'm. 323 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: Sure that g is just super stoked to show off 324 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: its war toys, there has to be an underlying reason 325 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: why he is showing off his war toys. 326 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 4: It's to project power. It's to threaten opposing countries. It's 327 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 4: to show them in very public manner, this is what 328 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: we've got, and this could be facing you if things 329 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 4: don't go well. It's a clear projection of force and 330 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 4: it's meant to intimidate, and it's partly propaganda, but it's 331 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 4: partly real. At the same time, these kind of parades 332 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 4: are things that you see much more with totalitarian countries 333 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 4: than you do with Western countries. But as we've said before, 334 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 4: with mister Trump and his military parade, he now has 335 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 4: had one. He wasn't happy, but he'll probably do another one. 336 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 4: But it doesn't engender feelings of peace, it doesn't engender 337 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 4: feelings of cooperation. It's a threatening move to sort of 338 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 4: like see this kind of projection of power, which is 339 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 4: why often countries don't send the highest dignataries if they're 340 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 4: opposing them to these meetings. 341 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, al. 342 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: You're welcome. 343 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 2: That said, for this episode of the Front Page. You 344 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 345 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: at enziherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 346 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 347 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 348 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 349 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.