WEBVTT - March Madness traffic chaos sparks debate on congestion solutions

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<v Speaker 1>Yoda.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Presented by the New Zealand Herald.

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<v Speaker 2>March madness is upon us, which means it's the busiest

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<v Speaker 2>time of year for anyone trying to get anywhere. It

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<v Speaker 2>usually marks the end of the summer holiday period. School

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<v Speaker 2>and university is back in session and most people are

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<v Speaker 2>heading back to work. So whether you're biking, driving, or

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<v Speaker 2>taking a train or bus, it is night marish. But

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<v Speaker 2>it does lead back to that age old question how

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<v Speaker 2>do we solve our traffic problems? Today on the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 2>we're joined by Matt Lowry from Greater Auckland to.

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<v Speaker 1>Look at some of the possible solutions.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Matt, we always love to find someone or something

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<v Speaker 2>to blame with problems like this. Auckland's Mayor Wayne Brown

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<v Speaker 2>has pointed the finger at road cones mostly for example.

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<v Speaker 2>But do we actually know what causes traffic jams and congestion?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I mean, ultimately it's too many people trying to

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<v Speaker 3>use the same piece of road or service. And so

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<v Speaker 3>if you have too many people and not enough capacity

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<v Speaker 3>or not enough alternatives, then you get congestion and you

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<v Speaker 3>get frustrated.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Auckland does have been bitching about traffic for decades,

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<v Speaker 2>probably since the first motorway was built. Why does it

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<v Speaker 2>seem like we haven't done much to change anything.

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<v Speaker 4>There's a lot has.

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<v Speaker 3>Been done that The issue is that Auckland has grown

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<v Speaker 3>massively over even just the last decade, and so there's

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<v Speaker 3>only so much infrastructure that can be built, particularly when

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<v Speaker 3>this stuff costs a lot of money. It takes a

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<v Speaker 3>long time to deliver, you know, that's hard to keep

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<v Speaker 3>up with the demand of.

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially, is it time to start introducing congestion charges? I

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<v Speaker 2>know we all love talking about that.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think it is.

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<v Speaker 3>We've seen in cities where it has been introduced that

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<v Speaker 3>it has made a big difference, and the most recent

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<v Speaker 3>one of those is New York, and New York is

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<v Speaker 3>seeing substantial crops in congestion and that means people who

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<v Speaker 3>are driving and taking having faster journeys. But it's also

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<v Speaker 3>not impacted local businesses and what have you that have

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<v Speaker 3>that was you know, people were worried about. So it

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<v Speaker 3>has been beneficial and it does raise revenue, and that revenue,

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<v Speaker 3>as you can be used to fund other infrastructure or

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<v Speaker 3>other services that can help make it easier to get around.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but when I think of New York, I think

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<v Speaker 2>about the subway system. Do we have something similar here?

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<v Speaker 3>We don't, not directly, but we will have the city

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<v Speaker 3>round and shortly, which will make our rail network significantly better.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you know, we have the Northern Busway, which

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<v Speaker 3>is which is kind of like around network, which is great,

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<v Speaker 3>and we've got more of those coming, but we also

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<v Speaker 3>need to build a lot more of them that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>that will cost money, takes time, and one of the

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<v Speaker 3>things that congestion pricing can do is encourage people to

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<v Speaker 3>think about.

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<v Speaker 4>How their travel and when their travel.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, sometimes there are people who are traveling

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<v Speaker 3>who simply could delay their trip by an hour or

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<v Speaker 3>something like that to go to where they might be

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to go, and that might be enough to help

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<v Speaker 3>these congestion. We see the impact that a slight reduction

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<v Speaker 3>and traffic and it feels like a lot, but it's

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<v Speaker 3>only a slight reduction in real numbers that school holidays

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<v Speaker 3>have and that means that as soon as school holidays

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<v Speaker 3>come around, the roads are generally a lot freer.

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<v Speaker 4>There's still some congestion.

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<v Speaker 3>It's still not like a free flow condition, but it

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<v Speaker 3>is easier to get around, and that's a small percentage

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<v Speaker 3>of users changing their habits and the travel. And if

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<v Speaker 3>congestion pricing can enable that, you know, we could have

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<v Speaker 3>school holiday levels of traffic all the time.

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<v Speaker 4>It's not a surprisingly new thing.

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<v Speaker 2>You're just encouraging people to change their day or do

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<v Speaker 2>something differently or better still, get on a bus. There

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<v Speaker 2>are options, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Get on a bus.

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<v Speaker 4>Browns take more people.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but therein lies the problem with our public transport.

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<v Speaker 2>The main problem is people just don't want to do it.

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<v Speaker 3>I remember having a conversation here on this on this

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<v Speaker 3>program and the feedback that came through from people.

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<v Speaker 4>When they tried to.

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<v Speaker 2>People when we talk about congestion charges, how much like

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<v Speaker 2>what are some of the numbers being thrown around?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, generally it's potentially a couple of dollars per journey,

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<v Speaker 3>and that means you might travel in an out of,

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<v Speaker 3>or through congestion zone.

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<v Speaker 4>And so it's a cost to travel through that. It's

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<v Speaker 4>not a huge roup. It's also not in significant over

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<v Speaker 4>a long period of time.

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<v Speaker 3>But the exact amounts have to be whipped out and

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<v Speaker 3>whipped through that The previous estimations were sort of in

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<v Speaker 3>the in a few dollars to three four dollars, depending

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<v Speaker 3>on the time of day, the location.

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<v Speaker 4>Per journey.

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<v Speaker 2>What has patronage been like on Auckland's public transport?

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<v Speaker 1>Has it picked up post COVID not.

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<v Speaker 3>Fully, So we're back to sort of around eighty five

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<v Speaker 3>to ninety percent of what it was post COVID pre COVID,

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<v Speaker 3>I should say, but what we're seeing is that there

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<v Speaker 3>are a wider range of people using public transport, but

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<v Speaker 3>they're using it often at different times. So where particularly

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<v Speaker 3>on things like crosstown buses or buses that aren't going

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<v Speaker 3>to the city center or trains, those trips are actually

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<v Speaker 3>higher than they wear pre COVID on the weekends off,

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<v Speaker 3>so those trips are there are more people using public

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<v Speaker 3>transport now than there were back prior to COVID. Where

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<v Speaker 3>the drop has been is in the sort of commuters

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<v Speaker 3>to the city center, and that's really what's driven those

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<v Speaker 3>numbers to change.

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<v Speaker 2>Has anyone actually ever crunched the numbers and worked out

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<v Speaker 2>how much it had cost to make public transport completely free.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I don't have the.

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<v Speaker 3>Exact number of the topic, but it's hundreds of millions

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<v Speaker 3>of dollars a year to do that. And the challenge

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<v Speaker 3>has always been with this discussion is what's the best

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<v Speaker 3>use of that money. Is the best use of that

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<v Speaker 3>money to make public transport free and make it easy.

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<v Speaker 3>But the problem that you come with that is if

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<v Speaker 3>you have a lot more people using it at buses

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<v Speaker 3>are also also have congestion issues and capacity issues, so

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<v Speaker 3>our trains do we have enough capacity.

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<v Speaker 4>In our public transport system to be able to cope

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<v Speaker 4>with that?

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<v Speaker 3>And what has been seen in some cities that have

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<v Speaker 3>tried this is that the buses and the trains get

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<v Speaker 3>so forward people who are who might be instead of

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<v Speaker 3>walking a short distance or cypling a short distance or whatever,

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<v Speaker 3>they switched to using the public transport system that clogs

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<v Speaker 3>the public transport system up, which means that it's not

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<v Speaker 3>very usable for people who might want to use it

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<v Speaker 3>somewhere else, and so you don't necessarily get the beach

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<v Speaker 3>shift in usage or in behavior that you might expect

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<v Speaker 3>you to get if you just gather for free, and

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<v Speaker 3>that money is money that could be used to help

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<v Speaker 3>improve the system well.

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<v Speaker 2>Organs train services will have been suspended for almost one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred days between Christmas and January twenty twenty six as

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<v Speaker 2>improvements are made to the rail network before the City

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<v Speaker 2>rail Link is complete.

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<v Speaker 1>Have we seen much disruption here so far?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's been.

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<v Speaker 3>Huge disruption that has occurred within the round it within

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<v Speaker 3>the last five years.

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<v Speaker 4>Really since about twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 3>We've always had disruption that's occurred, but the last five

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<v Speaker 3>years it has been quite significant with various amounts of you

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<v Speaker 3>know what called rebuald work, with various issues that have

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<v Speaker 3>had to have cropped up and needed to be fixed,

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<v Speaker 3>and these often take quite some time. That is still

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<v Speaker 3>being worked through, and their intention is to hype, is

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<v Speaker 3>to get that finished before the City rail and opens up.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you actually look at what's going on and why,

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<v Speaker 3>it's really frustrating as a user to have to experience

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<v Speaker 3>that disruption. We're effectively building a whole almost a brand

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<v Speaker 3>new railway system in the middle of that times because

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<v Speaker 3>they're having to dig out all the foundations, relay all

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<v Speaker 3>the tracks because you know, some of these foundations are

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<v Speaker 3>of the tracts are over one hundred years old, they're

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<v Speaker 3>not in great condition, they need to be replaced. And

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<v Speaker 3>now we actually seen similar things happen and a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of other cities around the world where these networks are

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<v Speaker 3>having to be gone to undergo quite significant maintenance and

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<v Speaker 3>repair cycles. In Australia number of lines that can think

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<v Speaker 3>of that are doing that right now, and other countries

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<v Speaker 3>as well.

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<v Speaker 2>That has to be frustrating for people who usually do

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<v Speaker 2>or do rely on those services. Hey, do you think

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<v Speaker 2>there's any changing that attitude, particularly when I guess rail

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<v Speaker 2>network seems to be shut down all the time, blood

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<v Speaker 2>buses can't turn up late, and I mean, what do

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<v Speaker 2>we do?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's really it's a really tough thing.

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<v Speaker 3>It's hard to justify someone using a public transport system

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<v Speaker 3>when it's unreliable. And so the two biggest drivers of

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<v Speaker 3>public transport usage is the frequency of services and obviously

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<v Speaker 3>where they go to is important, but the frequency of

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<v Speaker 3>services and the reliability, and so we've taken the reliability

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<v Speaker 3>away quite substantially.

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<v Speaker 4>Buses.

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<v Speaker 3>We also had the reliability issue last year or a

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<v Speaker 3>couple of years ago when we had a bus driver shortage.

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<v Speaker 3>Those that bus driver shortage has been resolved and actually

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<v Speaker 3>if you look at the bus the numbers, the bus

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<v Speaker 3>usage is almost back to what it was pre COVID,

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<v Speaker 3>so that the bus usage is about ninety seven percent

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<v Speaker 3>of what it was prior to COVID versus trains and

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<v Speaker 3>ferries are trains are sort of more in the sixty percent,

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<v Speaker 3>So that's where we've talked earlier about the up to

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<v Speaker 3>ninety percent of pre COVID levels, but buses are actually

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<v Speaker 3>closer to one hundred and that's because they are more reliable.

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<v Speaker 4>Again, they are.

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<v Speaker 3>Moving people that The issue with buses is often that

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<v Speaker 3>they get stuck in congestion, and the solution to that

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<v Speaker 3>is generally we need more bus priorities, a bus lanes,

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<v Speaker 3>things like that that allow buses to avoid that congestion.

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<v Speaker 3>And that means that when they do that, they'd be reliable,

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<v Speaker 3>they're faster, and they become more intrecutive. And we just

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<v Speaker 3>have to look at the Northern Busway as a great

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<v Speaker 3>example of a very high level bit of structure. More

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<v Speaker 3>people travel on the Northern Busway than any other bus

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<v Speaker 3>route of the country by a substantial margin.

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<v Speaker 5>There's no such thing as a sure thing in construction.

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<v Speaker 5>Nothing is guaranteed. And I've been around long enough to

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<v Speaker 5>see things come and whack you around the head when

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<v Speaker 5>you thought you heard everything resolved. And I've stopped in

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<v Speaker 5>my career some time ago, promising ministers there's certainty because

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<v Speaker 5>there's a danger they'll be disappointed. If you look at

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<v Speaker 5>any project, you have a whole series of traditional construction risks.

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<v Speaker 5>You have a procurement risk, numbers are always different once

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<v Speaker 5>you get into contract. You have a design risk. We

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<v Speaker 5>had a big underground risk where nearly all the city

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<v Speaker 5>ratlink is built underground. So once you go underground, you're

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<v Speaker 5>going to find things you didn't anticipate. We've found faults

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<v Speaker 5>and various things we didn't anticipate.

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<v Speaker 2>What are we expecting the CRL to be up and

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<v Speaker 2>running by the way, Yeah, current.

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<v Speaker 3>Planning is that it will be open early next year.

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<v Speaker 3>The executator has not been set. That depends on how

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<v Speaker 3>testing goes. And there's a bunch of work that can

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<v Speaker 3>transport has to do inters, training drivers and setting up

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<v Speaker 3>their own processes. So that stuff is underway. But the

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<v Speaker 3>indications are currently probably early next year, maybe February to April,

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<v Speaker 3>but that's.

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<v Speaker 4>Not locked in yet.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, given all the red tape there is around this stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>do you think it's enough time from saying now to

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<v Speaker 2>February next April for this to be sorted out?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah? These level crossings won't be sorted out by then.

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<v Speaker 3>Part of the issue with resolving them, particularly that six

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<v Speaker 3>years mentioned in Southakland, is that they can't all be

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<v Speaker 3>done one at the same time, because that would mean

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<v Speaker 3>that there's no crossings available for people to get across

0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.079
<v Speaker 3>it around it, So you have to do some and

0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:19.720
<v Speaker 3>then wait for that to be finished before you can

0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.680
<v Speaker 3>start the next one. So that's why that time frame

0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.600
<v Speaker 3>is in place. But those will be resolved at least

0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:26.839
<v Speaker 3>relatively shortly. You know, six years is a long time,

0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:28.920
<v Speaker 3>but it's still relatantly shortened the ground scheme of things.

0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.240
<v Speaker 3>But there is currently as I mentioned, no there is

0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.520
<v Speaker 3>twenty level crossings on the Western Line.

0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:34.719
<v Speaker 4>There's no plans for those.

0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:36.800
<v Speaker 3>And the Western Line is actually going to experience huge

0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.920
<v Speaker 3>benefits from the Cereal because it have much shorter Juney

0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.360
<v Speaker 3>times to the city center and there's gonna be a

0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of usage and not going to be able an

0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.080
<v Speaker 3>increased capacity very much.

0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:46.959
<v Speaker 4>From what it is currently.

0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned earlier.

0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.079
<v Speaker 2>Wayne Brown's anti traffic cone stance is just this week

0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.400
<v Speaker 2>called for a pause on the sixty million dollar Victorious

0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Street upgrade, which is adding cycle paths from Sky City

0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.720
<v Speaker 2>to Albert Park and reducing traffic to one lane each way.

0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Do you think his concerns here are valid?

0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:05.920
<v Speaker 4>No, I don't.

0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:07.640
<v Speaker 3>This has been a plan that's been in place for

0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.720
<v Speaker 3>over a decade. It's twenty twelve that original Council Ridgie

0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.800
<v Speaker 3>signed Blok. It was confirmed again back in twenty twenty

0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:16.240
<v Speaker 3>that this was a preferred option.

0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.280
<v Speaker 4>And what's recapning here is Victoria.

0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 3>Street is where one of the main entrances of the

0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.520
<v Speaker 3>t y Heritaria station for the City railminkers. We're going

0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.920
<v Speaker 3>to have thousands and thousands of people pouring out of

0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.560
<v Speaker 3>that station every single day, and the upgrade that's going

0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.880
<v Speaker 3>on is about making sure there's enough capacity within that pedestrial,

0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.280
<v Speaker 3>within the streets, and within the parts to handle all

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.000
<v Speaker 3>these people that are going to be using the trains

0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.640
<v Speaker 3>that now from the City railant when it does open

0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.920
<v Speaker 3>in the future. And it's about making the city center

0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.480
<v Speaker 3>more walkable, more pedestrian for it. And what we're seeing

0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.080
<v Speaker 3>is when we do that in other areas of the

0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.680
<v Speaker 3>city center where individuals have happened, that we see increases

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 3>in usage in retail it occurs, and better outcomes for businesses,

0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 3>for residents and to make courage more people to use

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 3>it as well.

0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 2>It feels like we're constantly talking about how unequipped to

0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Auckland's roading network is for its population size, and we're

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.480
<v Speaker 2>only getting bigger. Is there any hope on the horizon?

0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.360
<v Speaker 2>And don't tell me that everyone needs to get on bikes?

0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.000
<v Speaker 3>No, I don't think you've runs on bikes and even

0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.560
<v Speaker 3>a small a smaller proportion using bikes at five ten

0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 3>percent would make a huge difference to how Aucklander is

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.600
<v Speaker 3>get around it, and really is we need a wide

0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.640
<v Speaker 3>range of options. You know, we need better better bike options,

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.600
<v Speaker 3>we need better public transport options, and we need to

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.080
<v Speaker 3>make it easier to It's hard to make it easier

0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.440
<v Speaker 3>to drive, but we can, through things like congestion pricing,

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:39.439
<v Speaker 3>make it free up the roads a bit and that

0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 3>by encouraging people to either is it not travel at

0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.200
<v Speaker 3>the side at peak times or change out they travel.

0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.760
<v Speaker 3>And so it's really not a single solution. There's a

0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.360
<v Speaker 3>wide range of solutions that are required.

0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:50.839
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. The challenge. One of the.

0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.680
<v Speaker 3>Challenges with Auckland is because of our geography, we have

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 3>a lot of pinch points on our roading network that

0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.080
<v Speaker 3>other cities don't necessarily have, but that means a lot

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 3>of traffic is funneled into into and full of crossings,

0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 3>and so for you to think about on coming into

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.520
<v Speaker 3>the dismus you've got, it's only a can full of

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 3>roads that.

0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.560
<v Speaker 4>People can actually use, and that funnels all.

0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.439
<v Speaker 3>That traffic into very narrow corridors, and so it's very

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.719
<v Speaker 3>hard to avoid congestion completely when you've got that sort

0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:16.720
<v Speaker 3>of situation occurring.

0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 4>Looking at road options, there's very few options.

0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 3>That you could build that for that you do, particularly

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 3>anything affordably betwood, that you make any material difference to

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 3>congestion with an auckland. So it's really about providing more

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 3>options for people, is the key.

0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Matt Problem.

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.640
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You

0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 2>at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 2>produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also

0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:51.560
<v Speaker 2>our sound engineer.

0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:53.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm Chelsea Daniels.

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts, and tune in on Money Day for

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 2>another look behind the headlines.