1
00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:05,680
Speaker 1: Kyoda.

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald.

4
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 3: We're halfway through the year.

5
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,759
Speaker 2: But there have already been a number of confronting headlines

6
00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,160
Speaker 2: about early childhood education providers in twenty twenty five. Earlier

7
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,760
Speaker 2: this year, the Herald ran a number of stories around

8
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 2: children escaping from centers around the country, and in the

9
00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,159
Speaker 2: last week, two coroners' reports have come out highlighting tragic

10
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 2: deaths that befell two young children. The news comes after

11
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,720
Speaker 2: a review by the Ministry of Regulation into ecees and

12
00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,839
Speaker 2: how they operate, with another review just announced by the

13
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,640
Speaker 2: Education Ministry into funding coming next Today on the Front Page,

14
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 2: we're discussing what's happening with the rules, regulations and funding

15
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 2: with doctor Sarah Alexander, Chief Advisor to the Office of

16
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:07,679
Speaker 2: Early Childhood Education. Sarah, I want to start with some

17
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,160
Speaker 2: high profile stories that The Herald has covered this year

18
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,679
Speaker 2: around early childhood education centers. Notably, in the last week,

19
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 2: we've reported on two coroners' findings around death related to ecees.

20
00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 2: The first was about Lorenzo Miranda, who was twenty months

21
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 2: when he suffered a fatal but invisible head injury after

22
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,800
Speaker 2: a fallback in twenty seventeen. He later died in hospital,

23
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 2: and findings found that ECE workers could not have expected

24
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,000
Speaker 2: to have identified something was wrong with Lorenzo, but it

25
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,360
Speaker 2: was noted they should have informed the parents about what happened.

26
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:41,800
Speaker 3: What do you make of this case?

27
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 4: In my opinion, to me, it's pretty much of a

28
00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,960
Speaker 4: cover up. I believe that the workers, that the teachers

29
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 4: should have known what had happened, that it was possible

30
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,760
Speaker 4: to recognize some of the signs of a serious hit injury,

31
00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 4: and that there were a number of failings in the

32
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 4: case of of this early childhood service that he attended.

33
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 3: Is there anything to learn from this event?

34
00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,120
Speaker 4: Reading the reports from the Ministry of Education, from Work

35
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 4: Safe and from the coroner, what we can gather from

36
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 4: those reports is that little Lorenzo potentially probably fell from

37
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,800
Speaker 4: an adult sized chair. There was an adult sized table

38
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,440
Speaker 4: and cheers in the center. That should not be the case.

39
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,920
Speaker 4: You know, I'm of the belief that if a child's

40
00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 4: feet can't touch the floor when they're seated, then that

41
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 4: seat is too big for them. So you know, firstly,

42
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 4: there was inappropriate furniture there, and I think that's a

43
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 4: lesson for all of their child's services and for parents

44
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 4: when they're you know, going down to look for an

45
00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 4: early child's service for their child. You know, what is

46
00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,800
Speaker 4: the size of the furniture? Is the furniture that my

47
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,280
Speaker 4: child is going to be using safe? Another thing was

48
00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 4: that there was on that particular day that Lorenzo had

49
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,280
Speaker 4: his fall, there was staff coming and going, there was

50
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,239
Speaker 4: a birthday party happening in the room. There was really

51
00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,280
Speaker 4: no one person looking after him that day. Know, he

52
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,480
Speaker 4: was cared for by multiple staff, so there wasn't a

53
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 4: primary you know what we call a primary caregiver, And

54
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 4: that's just something else that we would like to see

55
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,960
Speaker 4: in the office of ec Change, you know, a requirement

56
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,679
Speaker 4: that for under two year olds in particular, because they're

57
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 4: so vulnerable, that under two year olds to have someone

58
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,960
Speaker 4: who is responsible for them and who will look out

59
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,959
Speaker 4: for them at all times, someone who's keeping an eye

60
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,480
Speaker 4: on them. Then there was also the issue that the

61
00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,639
Speaker 4: fall was not recorded, so there was no information passed

62
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,639
Speaker 4: on to the family that Lorenzo had fallen, probably from

63
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,000
Speaker 4: the cheer because he was seen lying at the bottom

64
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,400
Speaker 4: of the adult side's cheer and also possible signs of

65
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 4: head injury were missed. And you know, the main one

66
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,240
Speaker 4: there is drowsiness because when the parents came to pick

67
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:43,960
Speaker 4: him up, you know, he was lying in the lap

68
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 4: of a teacher and extremely drowsy, and you know that

69
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 4: was not like him. And you know, not at that

70
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 4: time of day either.

71
00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 5: Domestic ending, nobody told me anything I went to pick

72
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 5: him up, so we had no clue. We were just

73
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 5: handed over a baby that was had a brain bleed

74
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,720
Speaker 5: and we didn't know. Cause that's one of the hardest

75
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 5: things as well, was you know, I held him when

76
00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 5: he came into the world, and I also that we

77
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,040
Speaker 5: also held him when he left the world.

78
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,040
Speaker 4: It's just.

79
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 5: It's not something that you want to do as a

80
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:25,479
Speaker 5: parent ever ever.

81
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,520
Speaker 2: And the other case was one that your organization actually

82
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,240
Speaker 2: spotted around the death of a five month old back

83
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three.

84
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 3: Why did this one catch your attention?

85
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:40,480
Speaker 1: It caught our.

86
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 4: Attention because it's one of probably many cases in early childhood.

87
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,280
Speaker 4: But it caught our attention because it was an unexplained deaths.

88
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 4: But there were a number of features, a number of

89
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 4: things seemed to add up to this unexplained death. That

90
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 4: possibly if these things weren't happening at the time, that

91
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,839
Speaker 4: baby might still be alive.

92
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,520
Speaker 3: Now and can you tell me what happened.

93
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,280
Speaker 4: So it started off with, you know, five months old baby,

94
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 4: you know, seemingly healthy, you know, apart from what infants

95
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,279
Speaker 4: often get is you know, colds and running you know,

96
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,200
Speaker 4: running noses, and he had had a bit of a

97
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 4: cough at the time. He was fed for lunch a

98
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 4: pouch of baby food. But the teacher said at the

99
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 4: time that he had his food, that he didn't take

100
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 4: to eating the food very well, and that that was

101
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 4: unusual for him. He was put to bed with a

102
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 4: loose blanket, which is not following guidance for the protection

103
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,919
Speaker 4: you know, to mitigate the risks of sud I in

104
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 4: terms of sudden death. So you know, that's not a

105
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,440
Speaker 4: best practice thing, you know, to put a baby to

106
00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,200
Speaker 4: bed with loose bedding, with a loose blanket. He was

107
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,479
Speaker 4: also put into a room with up to eight other

108
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 4: infants and left to sleep, only being checked every ten

109
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,919
Speaker 4: minutes or so. Now, an early child is centers, you

110
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 4: know that can be busy places, noisy places. So a

111
00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 4: lot of centers had doors on the sleep rooms. Doors

112
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 4: the sleep from door may or may not have been closed.

113
00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,440
Speaker 4: It's not mentioned in the reports. There might not have

114
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,080
Speaker 4: been a baby monitor. So really that those nine babies

115
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 4: who were sleeping in the room at the time we're

116
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 4: lived without an adult watching over them, and yet the

117
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 4: Ministry of Education says that that's perfectly fine because that

118
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 4: meets current regulation standards. We believe that infants, particularly should

119
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 4: have someone watching over them, someone who can see them

120
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 4: when you're sleeping.

121
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, in both of those cases, do you think the

122
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,960
Speaker 2: regulations in place at the moment go far enough to

123
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,240
Speaker 2: protect children? Because in both situations it seems that there's

124
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 2: been changes made as a result of these deaths.

125
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 4: Not really, believe it or not, there seems to have

126
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 4: been quite a cover up because you know, we're just

127
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 4: reporting the stories now. These deaths happened some time ago.

128
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,479
Speaker 4: You know, the five month old baby die back in

129
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,919
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, and the child who dived from a

130
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,280
Speaker 4: fatal fall that was back in twenty seventeen, so you know,

131
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 4: their information's not out there that What the Ministry of

132
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 4: Education has done has just basically been to maybe put

133
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 4: some more advice on their website or to provide links

134
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 4: through to other agencies to health agencies on recommended best practices.

135
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,480
Speaker 4: But regulations have a changed, requirements haven't changed. Babies can

136
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 4: still be put down to sleep in a sleep rome

137
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 4: and left unchecked for ten minutes at a time at

138
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 4: adult sized furniture can still be in playrooms for children

139
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 4: who were too young to use that size of furniture

140
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 4: and not given good supervision around that furniture. And you know,

141
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 4: there is no requirement for a primary caregiver for infants

142
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 4: in early childhood services. So there haven't been any regulation improvements.

143
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 4: In fact, regulations were better some years ago.

144
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 1: Back in two thousand, before two thousand and eight, I

145
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 1: think it was regulations before two thousand and eight require

146
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 1: that there'd be an adult in the room when children

147
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: were resting or sleeping.

148
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 2: Well, that just seems like common sense. Why isn't that happening?

149
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 4: It does seem like common sense, and you'd expect all

150
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 4: early chittered services to be following common sense, but it seems,

151
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 4: you know from our investigations that actually it doesn't. Common

152
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 4: sense isn't always followed. You know, early chided services are

153
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 4: busy places. They can have high staff. High staff turn either.

154
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 4: They can be run by operators who don't know what

155
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 4: best practices are and aren't aware of research, and so

156
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 4: you know they'll follow the regulations perhaps, but those regulations

157
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 4: in themselves aren't adequate enough when there is a lack

158
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,719
Speaker 4: of knowledge about best practices and when there are other

159
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,440
Speaker 4: streetses and strains on the services, meaning that you know

160
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,320
Speaker 4: they won't go that extra mile. And we'd like to

161
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,920
Speaker 4: see services go that extra mile and do the best

162
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 4: practices and provide the high quality and be aware of

163
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 4: what can lead to injuries into deaths, because you know

164
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,240
Speaker 4: one andrey one dar is just one two innings.

165
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,439
Speaker 2: The other situation the Herald has covered a lot earlier

166
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,079
Speaker 2: this year was around children managing to escape for lack

167
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 2: of a better term, from their ec centers. Now. Information

168
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,079
Speaker 2: obtained by the Rotarua Daily Post under the Official Information

169
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,720
Speaker 2: Act found that between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four,

170
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,079
Speaker 2: three hundred and twenty one children managed to abscond.

171
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 3: Are you surprised by those figures?

172
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,719
Speaker 4: No, And those figures probably represent just kind of like

173
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,360
Speaker 4: the tip of the iceberg because it's not a requirement

174
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,719
Speaker 4: for services to report to the Ministry of Education of

175
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 4: the child escapes, so it could be a lot more.

176
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,400
Speaker 4: The figure could be much much higher than there, and

177
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 4: we don't know because it's not a requirement to report

178
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 4: child escapes. And the word child escape in itself is

179
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,120
Speaker 4: language that perhaps we shouldn't be using, but as indicative

180
00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 4: of the state of the early childhood sector in terms

181
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,640
Speaker 4: of the laxness of regulations and the fact that we

182
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,440
Speaker 4: see children escaping rather than children wanting to be in

183
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 4: their early childhood service and loving being there, you know.

184
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,400
Speaker 4: And what we want is, you know, for every child

185
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,679
Speaker 4: to be leager in the morning and want to dash

186
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 4: out the door and go to the early childhood service

187
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,800
Speaker 4: because it's a great place to be rather than a

188
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,000
Speaker 4: place to escape from.

189
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 2: Should there be penalties or something in place for ecs

190
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,079
Speaker 2: that I suppose have in an abscondee.

191
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 4: In some cases it's because of the child has high

192
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 4: needs in terms of behavior and they might just climb

193
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 4: the fence because you know, the climbers. Yeah. In terms

194
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 4: of whether or not there should be penalties, it should.

195
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 4: What we are advocating in the Office of Early Childhood

196
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 4: Education is for information for parents to be made available

197
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 4: on when there have been escapes, when there have been

198
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,959
Speaker 4: there is incidents when there have been deaths, so there

199
00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,439
Speaker 4: is transparency because then parents or teachers that are going

200
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,080
Speaker 4: to work at a service and other services can know, hey,

201
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,319
Speaker 4: these are the things that we need to change in

202
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 4: our service, so you know, this sort of thing won't

203
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,840
Speaker 4: happen again, or it won't happen at our service. And

204
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 4: I think that's a real issue, is the lack of transparency.

205
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,640
Speaker 4: The fact that you know, these two cases of child death,

206
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 4: there have been you know, multiple serious other cases of

207
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,599
Speaker 4: serious injuries that over time will be uncovered and that

208
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 4: we'll be discussing, you know, more about because you know,

209
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 4: we've got a commitment in the Office of ECE to

210
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 4: start the ball rolling to get some transparency going because

211
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 4: the Ministry of Education at the moment does not want

212
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 4: these cases to be known. And you know, even the

213
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 4: Ministry for Regulation, David Seymour has recently required that that

214
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,280
Speaker 4: ECE be his first target for the Ministry for Regulation

215
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,720
Speaker 4: to do a review of regulations. Now the Ministry for

216
00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,600
Speaker 4: Regulation has completed its report, changes to base, it cut

217
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 4: out a lot of regulations and requirements have been approved

218
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 4: by Cabinet. This is serious because you know, as these

219
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 4: cases that you know we are talking about show regulations

220
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 4: not strong enough as it is, and we need tighter

221
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 4: regulations rather than fewer regulations. And we also need regulations

222
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,160
Speaker 4: to be in areas where we know there are needs

223
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 4: for requirements to be set, because otherwise the requirements may

224
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 4: not be followed within an early childhood service.

225
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 6: The report makes fifteen recommendations to modernize and simplify regulations

226
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,960
Speaker 6: across ECE so that service providers can get on with

227
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,520
Speaker 6: what they do best, providing safe, high quality spaces.

228
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,439
Speaker 3: For children to reach their potential.

229
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 6: The Ministry is recommended removing, changing, or merging approximately three

230
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,079
Speaker 6: quarters of the ninety eight licensing criteria for center based services,

231
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,160
Speaker 6: simplifying the system so it focuses on children's and education

232
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:02,719
Speaker 6: instead of paperwork.

233
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 2: Regulations around early childhood education have been in the spotlight

234
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,000
Speaker 2: of course, this year, the Ministry of Regulation shows easy Ease,

235
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 2: like you said, is the first sector a review looking.

236
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:17,959
Speaker 3: At the laws.

237
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 2: Those include more flexible requirements around qualifications for staff and

238
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 2: reducing licensing criteria by about seventy five percent. Firstly, can

239
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 2: you explain what licensing criteria is?

240
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:33,840
Speaker 4: Well, when you get a warrant fitness of your car,

241
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,360
Speaker 4: there is like a checklist and the mechanic will go

242
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 4: through and check you know, breaks, steering and so on,

243
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 4: seat belts and so forth. The same with an early

244
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,400
Speaker 4: chartered service. When someone wants to open an early charted service,

245
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,559
Speaker 4: the Ministry will go into it with its checklist and

246
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,679
Speaker 4: check off that it's doing these things, and then it's

247
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,520
Speaker 4: expected to continue doing these things while it's operating, so

248
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,480
Speaker 4: you know, both before it starts operating and while it's operating.

249
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 4: And if the service, it's mostly through complaints and through

250
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,679
Speaker 4: serious incidents that the Ministry finds out that a service

251
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:12,239
Speaker 4: may potentially be having problems in complying with the licensing

252
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 4: requirements and it will then go into a check. In

253
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 4: New Zealand, we don't have a system of regular checks

254
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,080
Speaker 4: on early childhood services by the Ministry of Education.

255
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 2: I've read some comments from you where it's clear you

256
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 2: aren't happy about these changes. In one report, you said

257
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,360
Speaker 2: it would weaken the care of our children and that

258
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 2: it paved the way for baby farming.

259
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 3: What do you mean by that?

260
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 4: Yes, well, we're very concerned and you know, in my opinion,

261
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,440
Speaker 4: the regulatory change as will because the Ministry for Regulation

262
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 4: didn't take into account and its recommendations. What we can

263
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 4: learn from serious incidents. It didn't look into complaints that

264
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 4: have been made about early childhood services to see, well,

265
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,080
Speaker 4: you know, how can regulations be better and provide better

266
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,040
Speaker 4: protection for children and enhance improve the standard of their

267
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 4: care and education. Instead, you know, it's like a how

268
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 4: can we slash regulations and requirements? And then we've also

269
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 4: got the added worry about this clause within the Ministry

270
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:15,720
Speaker 4: for Regulations recommendations to allow for a mix of qualifications. Now,

271
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 4: really we should be having teachers who are knowledgeable about

272
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 4: child development, who have completed a high level of training

273
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 4: working in early childhood services. You know, where parents leave

274
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 4: their children, they entrust their child and the care of

275
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,040
Speaker 4: someone and they expect that person to have knowledge about,

276
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 4: you know, what is the best way to care for

277
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,520
Speaker 4: the child, and you know, in terms of being a

278
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 4: good educator and teacher. And so we're very worried that,

279
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,880
Speaker 4: you know, the qualification requirements already are very loose in

280
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 4: terms of the number of qualified staff required. It's possible

281
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 4: at times for them to be no early childed education

282
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 4: qualified teacher working with children. You know, it's allowed for

283
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 4: someone to be a primary school trained teacher who's trained

284
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 4: to work with older children, and the rest of the

285
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 4: staff maybe have had no training at all. They could

286
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 4: be you know, kids straight out of school seven, you know,

287
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,720
Speaker 4: eighteen year olds for example, so or just you know,

288
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 4: just relief teachers who aren't qualified, who haven't been through

289
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 4: the teaching counsel and got a practicing certificate and been

290
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 4: verified that they meet the standards of being a teacher.

291
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 2: Sarah, I don't have children, but I'm still terrified by

292
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 2: what I'm hearing from you. Is there anything in the

293
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,480
Speaker 2: regulations or anything in the changes that actually can quell fears,

294
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 2: or is the fact of the matter is that the

295
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 2: government needs to tighten, actually tighten regulations around e ces.

296
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,680
Speaker 4: There's nothing in the changes that are going to quell

297
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 4: the fears. You know, we've got a bad situation already

298
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 4: and it could potentially get worse. And you know that's

299
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,000
Speaker 4: why I say, you know, there's a high risk here

300
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 4: that we're going to go to the level of child

301
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 4: farming because you know, we reduce the regulations down and

302
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,880
Speaker 4: and trust service providers. You know, some know, some services

303
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,440
Speaker 4: will continue to operate really well and do wonderfully by children.

304
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,920
Speaker 4: Others we are you know, for example, money is a

305
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 4: motive for operating the service. You know, that is putting

306
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 4: children at risk, and we shouldn't allow that risk. You know,

307
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 4: we should have stringent standards and they should be good policing,

308
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,880
Speaker 4: monitoring by the Ministry for Education because you know, that's

309
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 4: what we parents rely on and that's what we'd love

310
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 4: to see as a sector where everyone's providing you know, safe,

311
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 4: high quality care and education for children.

312
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Sarah.

313
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 4: Thank you.

314
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

315
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

316
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is

317
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,639
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also

318
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: our sound engineer.

319
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,840
Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

320
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

321
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,400
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look

322
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 2: behind the headlines.