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Speaker 1: Nikola Willis, of course, is the Finance Minister. Hi Nikola, Hello,

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Speaker 1: heav are you doing anything about this IID privacy breach?

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Speaker 2: Look, the IID have obviously made that information known to

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Speaker 2: the Privacy Commissioner and it's now a matter for the

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Speaker 2: Privacy Commissioner.

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Speaker 1: Did they explain to you how this happened?

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Speaker 2: They have given me a briefing at their view that

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Speaker 2: this is a small error and they are doing what's

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Speaker 2: right in the situation, which is they're sharing all of

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Speaker 2: the information with the Privacy Commissioner so that they can

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Speaker 2: make any findings that may be necessary.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I find weird about this and

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Speaker 1: can't quite get my head around, is if they have

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Speaker 1: got all of this information on us, and they do,

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Speaker 1: If they've got all this information on us and they

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Speaker 1: need to get ahold of us, why aren't they just

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Speaker 1: getting a hold of us. Why are they giving the

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Speaker 1: information to Facebook and LinkedIn and these guys try to

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Speaker 1: get a hold of us.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's two separate things here. The first is, yes,

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Speaker 2: they can get hold of us they want to. The

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Speaker 2: second thing is often what IID want to make sure

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Speaker 2: people have is good information about their tacks. Entitlements and obligations,

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Speaker 2: and so they have historically used social media as a

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Speaker 2: way of targeting information at relevant taxpayers. They've obviously reviewed

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Speaker 2: the way that they've done that. They've made a decision

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Speaker 2: not to do that anymore, in line with their commitment

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Speaker 2: to upholding the higher standards of privacy. And that's a

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Speaker 2: good thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't get it. I mean, so if

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Speaker 1: they're like, Okay, Heather needs to HEATHERN needs to know

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Speaker 1: that she needs to pay her taxes by the end

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Speaker 1: of the financial year, why don't they just send me

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Speaker 1: an email? Why are they giving money to Facebook?

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Speaker 2: Not everyone opens their email? Do that? And people spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of time scrolling on Facebook and social media.

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Speaker 2: Think it simply about the IID trying to bring information

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Speaker 2: to where people are.

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Speaker 1: But surely you're going to have a higher chance of

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Speaker 1: the person opening the email than the person potentially seeing

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Speaker 1: it on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Look. I think the nature of this kind of advertising

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Speaker 2: was that they were able to target particular information at

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Speaker 2: groups of people to whom it was BALI us.

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Speaker 1: Yes, let's literally what you do with an email which

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Speaker 1: is free.

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Speaker 2: Look, I don't think the IID would have done this

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Speaker 2: practice unless they believe that it was a better way

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Speaker 2: to get information.

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Speaker 1: Really, you have too much confidence, and then they just

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Speaker 1: hand it over The details were two hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: thousand people to these guys.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's right. They have assured me that

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Speaker 2: they scrubbed data in a way that no one's individual.

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Speaker 1: Not in the case of the two hundred, not in

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Speaker 1: the case of the quarter million, right in the case

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Speaker 1: of the quarter million, they just hand it over all data.

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Speaker 2: Well, in this case, I want New Zealanders who are

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Speaker 2: listening to your show to know that their individual tax

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Speaker 2: information hasn't been compromised. There has been an issue here

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Speaker 2: that has been brought to the attention of the Privacy Commissioner,

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Speaker 2: and IID are making sure that they are using best

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Speaker 2: practice in future.

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Speaker 1: Do you think can you be absolutely sure though, that

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Speaker 1: they are not just wasting money on advertising for the

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Speaker 1: sake of wasting money on advertising.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty comf about that heither, because there's a couple

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Speaker 2: of things that are important to me. One that people

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Speaker 2: are who are due tax refunds or a DOE money

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Speaker 2: back know that and are getting their entitlement. And two

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Speaker 2: that where the government is o tax IID are chasing

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Speaker 2: that hard, and so it's important that the IID use

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Speaker 2: the resources it has to go after both of those things.

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Speaker 2: As I say, they've reviewed this practice, they're not using

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Speaker 2: it in future. That's a good thing, Okay, are they like? Okay?

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Speaker 1: I can understand that maybe there are some numpties out

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Speaker 1: there who never check the email accounts. It would be

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Speaker 1: a very few of them. But are the IID before

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Speaker 1: they're hitting Facebook and LinkedIn to try and advertise it us.

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Speaker 1: Are they first just sending us a free email and

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Speaker 1: then if we're not opening it and responding, then they're

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Speaker 1: going for the advertising.

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Speaker 2: Look, they may be. You'd have to talk to them

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Speaker 2: to understand the detail of their practices, But I just

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Speaker 2: do want to be a bit real world here. Okay.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people get a lot of emails, and

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Speaker 2: it's not necessarily the case every email gets opened, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes we see things flash up on our social media

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Speaker 2: account and that can be a promptu action. So I

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Speaker 2: know that it's the practice of many organizations to do both,

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Speaker 2: to do both email and advertising on other digital platforms.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's an unusual thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Listen, have you caught up on this business about

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Speaker 1: the banks forcing our dairy farmers to emit less than

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Speaker 1: the Aussie dairy farmers.

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Speaker 2: Look, I have heard a little bit about that. I

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Speaker 2: haven't been briefed fully on it. It's something I'm interested in.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the matters I expect the Parliamentary Selectmmittee

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Speaker 2: inquiry will want to delve deeper into.

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Speaker 1: Have you asked you haven't talked to the banks then

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Speaker 1: if you've just got the first hint of what's going on,

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Speaker 1: you haven't have a chat to them.

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Speaker 2: Yet, not yet. But as I say, this is one

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Speaker 2: of the issues that I think the Parliamentary Selectmmittee should

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Speaker 2: inquire into. They should be asking questions of the banks

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Speaker 2: about it. It's important we get full information about this.

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Speaker 2: Where I'm coming from is I want a growing productive

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Speaker 2: economy that means farmers having access to capital, that means

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Speaker 2: farmers being able to expand and grow and export more.

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Speaker 2: And I don't want the bank standing in the way

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 1: No, And on the face of it, do you feel

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Speaker 1: I feel slightly uncomfortable that banks are getting involved in

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Speaker 1: the climate stuff with our farmers? What about you?

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Speaker 2: Well? The thing that particularly struck me when I heard

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Speaker 2: your conversation with Jamie Mackay about this issue was that

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Speaker 2: there was a sense that there might be different rules

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Speaker 2: at play in New Zealand. Yes, there are than in Australia,

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Speaker 2: and that worries me because I want there to be

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Speaker 2: at the very least a level playing field, and if

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Speaker 2: I'm honest, I want it to be even easier for

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Speaker 2: New Zealand farmers than Ossie farmers. And so any idea

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Speaker 2: that it's been made harder for our farmers to access capital,

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Speaker 2: that the Ossie banks are mating it making it hard

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Speaker 2: for Kiwi farmers, I don't like the smell of that.

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Speaker 1: No, not at all. Okay, listen, is it true that

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Speaker 1: some public servants are not allowed to use Uber and

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Speaker 1: they have to use taxis?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, I understand that there has been a guideline

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Speaker 2: from the Department of Internal Affairs discouraging the use of Uber.

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Speaker 2: Now this has been brought to the MS of the

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Speaker 2: Public Service Commission. They're having a look at it. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to fess up right here right now. I use

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Speaker 2: Uber pretty regularly. I pay for it personally, and the

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Speaker 2: reason I do that is it's convenient, it's cheap, and

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Speaker 2: I love chatting with Uber drivers.

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Speaker 1: Did do you know why?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 1: Did you say it was inland revenue or who was it?

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Speaker 1: Internal Affairs?

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Speaker 2: The Department of Internal Affairs?

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Speaker 1: Why did they say no Uber?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, you'd have to ask them about that. But

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Speaker 2: as I say, this is something I'm very open for

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Speaker 2: change in because you know, technology changes, the way people

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Speaker 2: do things changes, and it seems just to me perhaps

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Speaker 2: a little old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Too right, and it's miles cheaper. Now, have you do

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Speaker 1: you reckon you? Or have we as a country gotten

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Speaker 1: in with Trump? Because Elon loves Christopher MUCKs the Christopher Luxon.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I've made one person out of two people,

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Speaker 1: Christopher Luxon, Elon loves Luxon.

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Speaker 2: Interesting that come to my mind with that description. Look,

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Speaker 2: both the Prime Minister and the Minister for Foreigner Fears

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Speaker 2: have been very careful to make sure they have relationships

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Speaker 2: in place with both Republican and Democratic side of politics

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Speaker 2: coming under the presidential election, and I think that there's

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Speaker 2: every reason to believe that New Zealand can have a

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Speaker 2: close relationship with the incoming administration. Obviously, there's big points

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Speaker 2: of commonality between the United States of America and New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: There's many things which are in our dual interests to pursue.

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Speaker 2: Does it help that Elon says nice things about the

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Prime minister on Twitter?

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Speaker 1: Probably if Trump does go ahead and pull out of

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Speaker 1: the Paris Accord, does that basically mean the thing falls over?

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Speaker 1: That's over, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: Well? Look, I wouldn't jump into judgment there. Obviously, the

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Speaker 2: new administration hasn't even started yet. How they engage with

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Speaker 2: those global treaties is yet to be seen. But for

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's part, we have a Zero Carbon Act in law.

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Speaker 2: We're on track to deliver to those objectives, reducing admissions,

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Speaker 2: having renewable affordable energy. Those are good thing regardless of

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Speaker 2: what happens with those international treaties.

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Speaker 1: If he pulls the funding from Ukraine, do we pull

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Speaker 1: the funding from Ukraine?

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Speaker 2: I would not jump into speculating on that either. That's

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Speaker 2: a matter for the Foreign Affairs Minister. I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: it's something that he will be considering. But again, far

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Speaker 2: too soon to judge how the United States will respond,

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Speaker 2: and of course the administration doesn't start till next year.

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Speaker 1: So but to order to go into the bridge to then,

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Speaker 1: how do you rate the chances that we get slapped

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Speaker 1: with tariffs.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, here's what I reckon. Trade is about, the

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Speaker 2: exchange of value for it makes sense. It needs to

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Speaker 2: benefit both sides. And when I look at New Zealand's

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Speaker 2: growing trade relationship with the United States, whether it's red meat,

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Speaker 2: whether it's wine, whether it's tourism, it's clear the Americans

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Speaker 2: like what we're selling. Equally, we import a hic of

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Speaker 2: a lot from the Americans. It works for both sides.

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Speaker 2: We have a close, positive relationship. So if there's any

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Speaker 2: country in the world that the United States should look

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Speaker 2: favorably upon in trade, I'd pick New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Nicholas, thank you, always appreciate your time. That's Nichola Willis,

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Speaker 1: the Finance Minister. Do you get the feeling Nichola didn't

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Speaker 1: know that the IID had handed over the private details

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Speaker 1: of two hundred and seventy thousand people without even encrypted,

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Speaker 1: Do you do? I felt like that was new information

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Speaker 1: to her, that they'd made that big whoopsie with the

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Speaker 1: raw data and just handed it over to like, whoop,

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Speaker 1: here you go, Facebook, here's all of Heather's contact details.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that was news to her. What do

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Speaker 1: you think For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen

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