Speaker 1: Gilder.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Prime Minister
Speaker 2: Christopher Luxen is heading to India, taking with him one
Speaker 2: of the largest delegations a New Zealand PM has ever
Speaker 2: traveled with, and the fanfare makes sense given we currently
Speaker 2: export seven hundred and eighteen million dollars worth of goods
Speaker 2: to India annually, but we don't have a formal free
Speaker 2: trade agreement with the world's largest population and on track
Speaker 2: to become the world's third largest economy by twenty thirty.
Speaker 2: Starting negotiations on that deal has been a priority for
Speaker 2: Luxen above the other deals he's focused on so far
Speaker 2: this term. Luxeon even promised in the twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: election campaign to finalize a deal within his first term
Speaker 2: of government. But how likely is that? And what would
Speaker 2: a deal actually mean for you? New Zealand. Later on
Speaker 2: the Front Page, but At Shaveler, a chair of the
Speaker 2: India New Zealand Business Council, joins us to delve into
Speaker 2: New Zealand's relationship with India. But first, Newstalks z BE
Speaker 2: political editor Jason Wowles is with us to explain what
Speaker 2: are all these agreements, memorandums and FTAs, What do they
Speaker 2: actually mean? Jason? Why is India such a priority for
Speaker 2: this government.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just a massive, massive market. I mean you
Speaker 3: just need to look at the sheer size of not
Speaker 3: just the population, but the size of the economy as well,
Speaker 3: and it's only projected to get bigger. New Zealand is
Speaker 3: a small trading nation and the bottom of the world.
Speaker 3: We live and die by trading. India is extremely lucrative,
Speaker 3: but it's extremely difficult to get a deal with and
Speaker 3: the past government, the Labor government, I mean, Chris Luxen
Speaker 3: gives them a lot of flak, but they did try.
Speaker 3: The Key government they did try as well, but it's
Speaker 3: always been one of the hardest markets to actually get
Speaker 3: a trade deal. To get one, you need to be
Speaker 3: on the ground. That's what the Prime Minister has been
Speaker 3: telling us, and so that's exactly why he's going. He's
Speaker 3: bringing some ministers and half of New Zealand's business sector,
Speaker 3: it seems because the delegation is a big one.
Speaker 2: So New Zealand has a lot of trade deals with
Speaker 2: the likes of China, Australia, the UK, the EU, the CPTPP.
Speaker 2: Why is getting a trade deal such a big deal
Speaker 2: for politicians.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it means they can stamp their mark
Speaker 3: on it, you know. I mean, the last Labor government
Speaker 3: gets a lot of flak from the business community, but
Speaker 3: you can't look past their ability to do a trade deal.
Speaker 3: Naimahuta as Foreign Minister, really wasn't overseas all that much.
Speaker 3: She didn't see that much activity outside New Zealand. Yes
Speaker 3: we have COVID to blame for that, but still even
Speaker 3: before that it was a bit tricky. But you got
Speaker 3: Damian O'Connor who was out there actually on a plane
Speaker 3: as much as he could be to get these deals
Speaker 3: across the line, and they did get the upgraded CPTPP deal.
Speaker 3: Say that three times in a row, idea, and that
Speaker 3: is an important step for New Zealand given the size
Speaker 3: of the Chinese market, and it's what this government will
Speaker 3: continue to do as well. If Chris Luxen is so
Speaker 3: hell bent on growth as he should be as a
Speaker 3: National Party Prime minister. Frankly just a prime minister in general,
Speaker 3: A good way of getting growth is by facilitating outside
Speaker 3: capital into the country and by getting a trade deal
Speaker 3: across the line. By reducing some of those importing and
Speaker 3: exporting tariffs. That's a good way of getting growth.
Speaker 2: We're always hearing about prime ministers signing things when they're abroad, right,
Speaker 2: But they're not really always trade deals, are they.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: I mean, when I was in Vietnam a couple of
Speaker 3: weeks ago, what they signed was a strategic Comprehensive Agreement,
Speaker 3: which sounds like it was worked up in the back
Speaker 3: room of some government department in the bowels of the Beltway,
Speaker 3: but it's actually quite significant because in countries like Vietnam,
Speaker 3: I mean, they're a communist country, and you need to
Speaker 3: work with the government if you're a business, and having
Speaker 3: these sort of deals means that New Zealand was one
Speaker 3: of the preferred partners, and there's only about ten of
Speaker 3: those in the world. So it's not a quote unquote
Speaker 3: free trade agreement because they're not working to lower tariffs.
Speaker 3: But what it is working to do is facilitating a relationship.
Speaker 3: So trading deals and free trade agreements are important, but
Speaker 3: you're right, they're not everything.
Speaker 2: But our free trade agreement's kind of like the pinnacle.
Speaker 2: That's like the top agreement that we can get.
Speaker 3: There are a number of different kinds of trade agreements.
Speaker 3: There's just your stock standard vanilla trade agreement, which is
Speaker 3: country to country. Then you've got something called multilateralism, which
Speaker 3: is a trade deal between a number of different countries.
Speaker 3: For example, the CPTPP is a multilateral deal. That one's
Speaker 3: quite a good one because it involves obviously China. At
Speaker 3: one point we were talking about the United States being
Speaker 3: in there. New Zealand doesn't have a free trade agreement
Speaker 3: with the United States. It's looking like we probably never will,
Speaker 3: especially under this administration. So these multilateral deals make it
Speaker 3: a lot easier for New Zealand to actually work with
Speaker 3: some of these big players, even though they're not directly
Speaker 3: having a free trade agreement with them.
Speaker 5: This is the fastest we have ever negotiated a deal
Speaker 5: in New Zealand, and it is one of the highest quality.
Speaker 5: On entry into force.
Speaker 2: Negotiations with the UAE took just four months.
Speaker 5: This high quality trade agreement will provide New Zealand with
Speaker 5: juty free access for ninety eight point five percent of
Speaker 5: our exports to the UAE, rising to ninety nine percent
Speaker 5: after three years.
Speaker 4: Well think we will gain by partner and our port
Speaker 4: security objective and we'll open door for Investments, Opportunity and
Speaker 4: Tourism logistics on agriculta.
Speaker 2: Has this government signed many trade deals so far? I
Speaker 2: know there was one with the UAE earlier this year.
Speaker 3: Right, there's a number of things that they've signed. So
Speaker 3: they have signed, They've signed that one that you mentioned.
Speaker 3: They'll be looking to get one in India. I don't
Speaker 3: think that there will. In the New Zealand First National
Speaker 3: Coalition Agreement, it just says to prioritize getting a free
Speaker 3: trade agreement with India. It doesn't say to get one,
Speaker 3: which is smart because India is a hard market to crack.
Speaker 3: We have been trying to get on top of that
Speaker 3: dairy issues from their perspective for decades now and haven't
Speaker 3: been able to do it. But yes, in terms of
Speaker 3: the agreements that the governments signed free traded agreements a
Speaker 3: few also those sort of smaller, different but still important
Speaker 3: deals like the one with Vietnam.
Speaker 2: So you reckon Luckson's pretty unlikely to get MODI to
Speaker 2: sign on the dotted line.
Speaker 3: There will be something that comes out of it. I
Speaker 3: think I think it'll be some sort of I mean
Speaker 3: it could be something very limp like we have progressed
Speaker 3: talks to continue to facilitate conversations about maybe getting a
Speaker 3: free trade agreement across the line. But you just can't
Speaker 3: do it in one step. And I think that Chris
Speaker 3: Luxon has been very careful not to say he's going
Speaker 3: over there to sign a deal. If he I would
Speaker 3: be very surprised if he did. In fact, it would
Speaker 3: be a major, major, major win for this government if
Speaker 3: they were to get a free trade agreement with India
Speaker 3: across the line. This quickly in the piece, But what
Speaker 3: this is probably is is the first of many steps.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Jason, no problem at all, India
Speaker 2: New Zealand Business Council chair. But at Shaveler is part
Speaker 2: of the massive delegation going to India with Christopher Laxin.
Speaker 2: He joins US now.
Speaker 1: First off.
Speaker 2: But what are we hoping for when Christopher Laxen goes
Speaker 2: to India?
Speaker 1: Okay, I've I've been very The minimum I'm hoping is
Speaker 1: that we come down with a very strong relationship building
Speaker 1: exercise and we initiate the trade discussions which can lead
Speaker 1: to some kind of agreement or our trade FDA in
Speaker 1: coming years.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty unlikely that he will actually return with
Speaker 2: as signed FTA.
Speaker 1: Hey, oh that really I'll be not hoping for that,
Speaker 1: but we will be signing a lot of mus for sure.
Speaker 2: How important is New Zealand's relationship with India.
Speaker 1: I think we need to build this relationship in multiple
Speaker 1: ways beneficial for US one because India is sitting in
Speaker 1: a very strong position in terms of geological geopolitical positioning. Second,
Speaker 1: we are relying on too much on trade on one country,
Speaker 1: which is China for now. We need a bigger partner
Speaker 1: in a bigger number also. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: if we see for a competitive edge over Australia, we
Speaker 1: need an agreement with India because India can buy a
Speaker 1: lot of things that we are not buying yet from
Speaker 1: New Zealand.
Speaker 2: And New Zealand and India have had a huge historical
Speaker 2: pass together defense connections. For one, our troops fought alongside
Speaker 2: each other during the Gallipoli Campaign in nineteen fifteen and
Speaker 2: again in World War Two. Has our relationship strengthened over
Speaker 2: the decades.
Speaker 1: See, relationships are strong. If you see we talk about
Speaker 1: cricket a lot of time. The first foreign coach for
Speaker 1: India was John Right if I'm not wrong, See the
Speaker 1: relationships are there, but we never thought to make the
Speaker 1: relationship stronger for the trades. We always thought it a
Speaker 1: good diplomatic relation. And nobody thought in a big way
Speaker 1: that News and India can have a multi billion dollar
Speaker 1: trade relationship. It's not only two and a half billion
Speaker 1: dollars three billion dollar, so we didn't put too much
Speaker 1: attention to the detail.
Speaker 2: You can see that the countries set up a joint
Speaker 2: Trade Committee in nineteen eighty three to have discussions about
Speaker 2: a free trade agreement, and I see that a lot
Speaker 2: of work was done from about twenty ten to twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: ten meetings in total. Why has it taken over forty
Speaker 2: years to make any kind of progress on this?
Speaker 1: I think we always went to India with a transactional relationship.
Speaker 1: We never build a relationship before we start a transaction.
Speaker 1: So if you see a lot of agreements with India
Speaker 1: have done lately or say in last ten years, they
Speaker 1: have come up over the relationship which has been there
Speaker 1: for many years now. Even Australia took forteen years to
Speaker 1: build that relation. So we and again if you see
Speaker 1: in India andis in relationship is on and off? You
Speaker 1: said ten to twenty fifteen, we did a lot of
Speaker 1: rounds that was pretty good. But from twenty sixteen to
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four or twenty twey three, nothing happened or
Speaker 1: not much happened. So when you start and stop, we
Speaker 1: restart again from zero. And that's a bigger problem.
Speaker 2: Is it? Because both countries rely so much on their
Speaker 2: dairy sector.
Speaker 1: I will say that I think we always projected that
Speaker 1: Using is a dairy destination, but Using is not a
Speaker 1: dairy only destination. And at the same time, India has
Speaker 1: been seen that is only agriculture destination. But if you
Speaker 1: see no, India has done a lot in the last
Speaker 1: ten years. What dairy is or is one part of
Speaker 1: all the discussions, but it is not the only part.
Speaker 1: I will not say that we should consider this as
Speaker 1: a as always an agreement. The dairy and we are
Speaker 1: a dairy destination to be honest, And either did you
Speaker 1: want to call it a dairy destination?
Speaker 4: Two?
Speaker 2: Do you think current tensions with China and the issues
Speaker 2: facing the Indo Pacific are placing pressure on site owning
Speaker 2: a free trade deal with India for New Zealand.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are seeing that way.
Speaker 1: But if you even that relationship isn't that that issue
Speaker 1: is not there? Still New Zealand need and a big,
Speaker 1: strong economic partner in the Indo Pacific region apart from
Speaker 1: China or Australia, and India is that big economy which
Speaker 1: is untapped. So if you know the numbers, we are
Speaker 1: forty billion dollar trade worth with China. We are only
Speaker 1: two point seven billion tread worth with India. Now even
Speaker 1: we do double, low, triple, we will still get a benefit.
Speaker 6: This mission is about stepping it up a gear, and
Speaker 6: that's because India really matters to New Zealand. With one
Speaker 6: point four to five billion people, it is the most
Speaker 6: populous nation on Earth and its economy is on track
Speaker 6: to being the third largest in the coming years. But
Speaker 6: despite India's growth and scale, it remains just our twelfth
Speaker 6: largest two way trading partner, accounting for one point five
Speaker 6: percent of our exports. And we need to step it
Speaker 6: up because with four hundred and forty five million people
Speaker 6: in India's middle classes, I think the economic growth opportunities
Speaker 6: obviously speak for themselves, but there is so much more
Speaker 6: to our relationship also than just our economic ties.
Speaker 2: We know that Luxen is going to meet with the
Speaker 2: Indian prime Minister Naranda Mody, a man who's known for
Speaker 2: some bold and controversial decisions, most recently. I'm thinking the
Speaker 2: contentious agriculture reforms in twenty twenty, which was forced to
Speaker 2: drop a year later after those mass protests from farmers.
Speaker 2: How do you think Luxon, as a man and a politician,
Speaker 2: is going to go at negotiating with a man like Mody.
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of positives. See you
Speaker 1: currently Mody or Indian government. What they're looking is at
Speaker 1: how you can grow India and how you can add
Speaker 1: value to India. And if I understand the experience which
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Luxen have currently working in a corporate sector
Speaker 1: with in the term lever also which is a part
Speaker 1: of Unilever. If you know, if you recall he knows
Speaker 1: bits and pieces, or say, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: things for India which can be useful and if you
Speaker 1: talk India needs help to grow India and if you
Speaker 1: talk that we will be in the right position to
Speaker 1: do a lot.
Speaker 2: Of things right. So this might be an area where
Speaker 2: Luckson's corporate speak might help it great.
Speaker 1: Agreed, So the corporate speak, the understanding of India, the
Speaker 1: like if you can get things done that will be
Speaker 1: helpful with India. New Zealand will get a lot of
Speaker 1: benefit in terms of the relations which we have and
Speaker 1: the amount of activity we have done in last twenty
Speaker 1: four months or say twelve months. Lately there are eleven
Speaker 1: to twelve meetings with ministers that is actually adding value.
Speaker 2: What do you think the best outcome will come from
Speaker 2: Luckson's trip to India.
Speaker 1: See one thing which is very clear. We are taking
Speaker 1: the biggest delegation. We are actually getting the I involved. Also,
Speaker 1: the benefit is that you are showing that we are
Speaker 1: open for business. You're showing that we are here to
Speaker 1: make our relationship were not are transational and the repeating
Speaker 1: that message and joining major events in India like Rice
Speaker 1: and a dialog is something which can show that Yep,
Speaker 1: New Zealand is on a very good position to trade
Speaker 1: with India in a bigger numbers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us brat.
Speaker 1: Great, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at NZ Herald dot co dot MZ. The Front Page
Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is
Speaker 2: also our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the
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Speaker 2: and tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.