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Speaker 1: Gilder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Christopher Luxen is heading to India, taking with him one

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Speaker 2: of the largest delegations a New Zealand PM has ever

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Speaker 2: traveled with, and the fanfare makes sense given we currently

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Speaker 2: export seven hundred and eighteen million dollars worth of goods

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Speaker 2: to India annually, but we don't have a formal free

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Speaker 2: trade agreement with the world's largest population and on track

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Speaker 2: to become the world's third largest economy by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 2: Starting negotiations on that deal has been a priority for

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Speaker 2: Luxen above the other deals he's focused on so far

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Speaker 2: this term. Luxeon even promised in the twenty twenty three

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Speaker 2: election campaign to finalize a deal within his first term

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Speaker 2: of government. But how likely is that? And what would

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Speaker 2: a deal actually mean for you? New Zealand. Later on

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Speaker 2: the Front Page, but At Shaveler, a chair of the

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Speaker 2: India New Zealand Business Council, joins us to delve into

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's relationship with India. But first, Newstalks z BE

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Speaker 2: political editor Jason Wowles is with us to explain what

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Speaker 2: are all these agreements, memorandums and FTAs, What do they

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Speaker 2: actually mean? Jason? Why is India such a priority for

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Speaker 2: this government.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's just a massive, massive market. I mean you

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Speaker 3: just need to look at the sheer size of not

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Speaker 3: just the population, but the size of the economy as well,

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Speaker 3: and it's only projected to get bigger. New Zealand is

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Speaker 3: a small trading nation and the bottom of the world.

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Speaker 3: We live and die by trading. India is extremely lucrative,

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Speaker 3: but it's extremely difficult to get a deal with and

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Speaker 3: the past government, the Labor government, I mean, Chris Luxen

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Speaker 3: gives them a lot of flak, but they did try.

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Speaker 3: The Key government they did try as well, but it's

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Speaker 3: always been one of the hardest markets to actually get

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Speaker 3: a trade deal. To get one, you need to be

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Speaker 3: on the ground. That's what the Prime Minister has been

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Speaker 3: telling us, and so that's exactly why he's going. He's

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Speaker 3: bringing some ministers and half of New Zealand's business sector,

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Speaker 3: it seems because the delegation is a big one.

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Speaker 2: So New Zealand has a lot of trade deals with

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Speaker 2: the likes of China, Australia, the UK, the EU, the CPTPP.

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Speaker 2: Why is getting a trade deal such a big deal

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Speaker 2: for politicians.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it means they can stamp their mark

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Speaker 3: on it, you know. I mean, the last Labor government

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Speaker 3: gets a lot of flak from the business community, but

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Speaker 3: you can't look past their ability to do a trade deal.

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Speaker 3: Naimahuta as Foreign Minister, really wasn't overseas all that much.

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Speaker 3: She didn't see that much activity outside New Zealand. Yes

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Speaker 3: we have COVID to blame for that, but still even

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Speaker 3: before that it was a bit tricky. But you got

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Speaker 3: Damian O'Connor who was out there actually on a plane

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Speaker 3: as much as he could be to get these deals

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Speaker 3: across the line, and they did get the upgraded CPTPP deal.

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Speaker 3: Say that three times in a row, idea, and that

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Speaker 3: is an important step for New Zealand given the size

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Speaker 3: of the Chinese market, and it's what this government will

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Speaker 3: continue to do as well. If Chris Luxen is so

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Speaker 3: hell bent on growth as he should be as a

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Speaker 3: National Party Prime minister. Frankly just a prime minister in general,

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Speaker 3: A good way of getting growth is by facilitating outside

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Speaker 3: capital into the country and by getting a trade deal

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Speaker 3: across the line. By reducing some of those importing and

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Speaker 3: exporting tariffs. That's a good way of getting growth.

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Speaker 2: We're always hearing about prime ministers signing things when they're abroad, right,

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Speaker 2: But they're not really always trade deals, are they.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: I mean, when I was in Vietnam a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks ago, what they signed was a strategic Comprehensive Agreement,

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Speaker 3: which sounds like it was worked up in the back

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Speaker 3: room of some government department in the bowels of the Beltway,

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Speaker 3: but it's actually quite significant because in countries like Vietnam,

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're a communist country, and you need to

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Speaker 3: work with the government if you're a business, and having

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Speaker 3: these sort of deals means that New Zealand was one

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Speaker 3: of the preferred partners, and there's only about ten of

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Speaker 3: those in the world. So it's not a quote unquote

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Speaker 3: free trade agreement because they're not working to lower tariffs.

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Speaker 3: But what it is working to do is facilitating a relationship.

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Speaker 3: So trading deals and free trade agreements are important, but

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Speaker 3: you're right, they're not everything.

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Speaker 2: But our free trade agreement's kind of like the pinnacle.

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Speaker 2: That's like the top agreement that we can get.

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Speaker 3: There are a number of different kinds of trade agreements.

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Speaker 3: There's just your stock standard vanilla trade agreement, which is

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Speaker 3: country to country. Then you've got something called multilateralism, which

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Speaker 3: is a trade deal between a number of different countries.

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Speaker 3: For example, the CPTPP is a multilateral deal. That one's

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Speaker 3: quite a good one because it involves obviously China. At

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Speaker 3: one point we were talking about the United States being

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Speaker 3: in there. New Zealand doesn't have a free trade agreement

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Speaker 3: with the United States. It's looking like we probably never will,

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Speaker 3: especially under this administration. So these multilateral deals make it

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Speaker 3: a lot easier for New Zealand to actually work with

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Speaker 3: some of these big players, even though they're not directly

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Speaker 3: having a free trade agreement with them.

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Speaker 5: This is the fastest we have ever negotiated a deal

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Speaker 5: in New Zealand, and it is one of the highest quality.

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Speaker 5: On entry into force.

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Speaker 2: Negotiations with the UAE took just four months.

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Speaker 5: This high quality trade agreement will provide New Zealand with

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Speaker 5: juty free access for ninety eight point five percent of

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Speaker 5: our exports to the UAE, rising to ninety nine percent

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Speaker 5: after three years.

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Speaker 4: Well think we will gain by partner and our port

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Speaker 4: security objective and we'll open door for Investments, Opportunity and

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Speaker 4: Tourism logistics on agriculta.

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Speaker 2: Has this government signed many trade deals so far? I

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Speaker 2: know there was one with the UAE earlier this year.

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Speaker 3: Right, there's a number of things that they've signed. So

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Speaker 3: they have signed, They've signed that one that you mentioned.

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Speaker 3: They'll be looking to get one in India. I don't

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Speaker 3: think that there will. In the New Zealand First National

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Speaker 3: Coalition Agreement, it just says to prioritize getting a free

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Speaker 3: trade agreement with India. It doesn't say to get one,

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Speaker 3: which is smart because India is a hard market to crack.

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Speaker 3: We have been trying to get on top of that

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Speaker 3: dairy issues from their perspective for decades now and haven't

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Speaker 3: been able to do it. But yes, in terms of

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Speaker 3: the agreements that the governments signed free traded agreements a

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Speaker 3: few also those sort of smaller, different but still important

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Speaker 3: deals like the one with Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: So you reckon Luckson's pretty unlikely to get MODI to

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Speaker 2: sign on the dotted line.

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Speaker 3: There will be something that comes out of it. I

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Speaker 3: think I think it'll be some sort of I mean

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Speaker 3: it could be something very limp like we have progressed

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Speaker 3: talks to continue to facilitate conversations about maybe getting a

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Speaker 3: free trade agreement across the line. But you just can't

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Speaker 3: do it in one step. And I think that Chris

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Speaker 3: Luxon has been very careful not to say he's going

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Speaker 3: over there to sign a deal. If he I would

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Speaker 3: be very surprised if he did. In fact, it would

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Speaker 3: be a major, major, major win for this government if

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Speaker 3: they were to get a free trade agreement with India

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Speaker 3: across the line. This quickly in the piece, But what

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Speaker 3: this is probably is is the first of many steps.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Jason, no problem at all, India

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Business Council chair. But at Shaveler is part

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Speaker 2: of the massive delegation going to India with Christopher Laxin.

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Speaker 2: He joins US now.

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Speaker 1: First off.

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Speaker 2: But what are we hoping for when Christopher Laxen goes

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Speaker 2: to India?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I've I've been very The minimum I'm hoping is

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Speaker 1: that we come down with a very strong relationship building

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Speaker 1: exercise and we initiate the trade discussions which can lead

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Speaker 1: to some kind of agreement or our trade FDA in

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Speaker 1: coming years.

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Speaker 2: So it's pretty unlikely that he will actually return with

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Speaker 2: as signed FTA.

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Speaker 1: Hey, oh that really I'll be not hoping for that,

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Speaker 1: but we will be signing a lot of mus for sure.

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Speaker 2: How important is New Zealand's relationship with India.

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Speaker 1: I think we need to build this relationship in multiple

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Speaker 1: ways beneficial for US one because India is sitting in

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Speaker 1: a very strong position in terms of geological geopolitical positioning. Second,

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Speaker 1: we are relying on too much on trade on one country,

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Speaker 1: which is China for now. We need a bigger partner

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Speaker 1: in a bigger number also. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: if we see for a competitive edge over Australia, we

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Speaker 1: need an agreement with India because India can buy a

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Speaker 1: lot of things that we are not buying yet from

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Speaker 1: New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: And New Zealand and India have had a huge historical

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Speaker 2: pass together defense connections. For one, our troops fought alongside

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Speaker 2: each other during the Gallipoli Campaign in nineteen fifteen and

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Speaker 2: again in World War Two. Has our relationship strengthened over

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Speaker 2: the decades.

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Speaker 1: See, relationships are strong. If you see we talk about

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Speaker 1: cricket a lot of time. The first foreign coach for

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Speaker 1: India was John Right if I'm not wrong, See the

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Speaker 1: relationships are there, but we never thought to make the

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Speaker 1: relationship stronger for the trades. We always thought it a

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Speaker 1: good diplomatic relation. And nobody thought in a big way

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Speaker 1: that News and India can have a multi billion dollar

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Speaker 1: trade relationship. It's not only two and a half billion

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Speaker 1: dollars three billion dollar, so we didn't put too much

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Speaker 1: attention to the detail.

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Speaker 2: You can see that the countries set up a joint

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Speaker 2: Trade Committee in nineteen eighty three to have discussions about

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Speaker 2: a free trade agreement, and I see that a lot

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Speaker 2: of work was done from about twenty ten to twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 2: ten meetings in total. Why has it taken over forty

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Speaker 2: years to make any kind of progress on this?

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Speaker 1: I think we always went to India with a transactional relationship.

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Speaker 1: We never build a relationship before we start a transaction.

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Speaker 1: So if you see a lot of agreements with India

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Speaker 1: have done lately or say in last ten years, they

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Speaker 1: have come up over the relationship which has been there

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Speaker 1: for many years now. Even Australia took forteen years to

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Speaker 1: build that relation. So we and again if you see

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Speaker 1: in India andis in relationship is on and off? You

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Speaker 1: said ten to twenty fifteen, we did a lot of

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Speaker 1: rounds that was pretty good. But from twenty sixteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four or twenty twey three, nothing happened or

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Speaker 1: not much happened. So when you start and stop, we

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Speaker 1: restart again from zero. And that's a bigger problem.

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Speaker 2: Is it? Because both countries rely so much on their

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Speaker 2: dairy sector.

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Speaker 1: I will say that I think we always projected that

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Speaker 1: Using is a dairy destination, but Using is not a

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Speaker 1: dairy only destination. And at the same time, India has

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Speaker 1: been seen that is only agriculture destination. But if you

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Speaker 1: see no, India has done a lot in the last

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Speaker 1: ten years. What dairy is or is one part of

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Speaker 1: all the discussions, but it is not the only part.

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Speaker 1: I will not say that we should consider this as

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Speaker 1: a as always an agreement. The dairy and we are

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Speaker 1: a dairy destination to be honest, And either did you

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Speaker 1: want to call it a dairy destination?

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Speaker 4: Two?

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Speaker 2: Do you think current tensions with China and the issues

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Speaker 2: facing the Indo Pacific are placing pressure on site owning

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Speaker 2: a free trade deal with India for New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are seeing that way.

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Speaker 1: But if you even that relationship isn't that that issue

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Speaker 1: is not there? Still New Zealand need and a big,

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Speaker 1: strong economic partner in the Indo Pacific region apart from

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Speaker 1: China or Australia, and India is that big economy which

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Speaker 1: is untapped. So if you know the numbers, we are

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Speaker 1: forty billion dollar trade worth with China. We are only

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Speaker 1: two point seven billion tread worth with India. Now even

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Speaker 1: we do double, low, triple, we will still get a benefit.

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Speaker 6: This mission is about stepping it up a gear, and

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Speaker 6: that's because India really matters to New Zealand. With one

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Speaker 6: point four to five billion people, it is the most

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Speaker 6: populous nation on Earth and its economy is on track

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Speaker 6: to being the third largest in the coming years. But

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Speaker 6: despite India's growth and scale, it remains just our twelfth

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Speaker 6: largest two way trading partner, accounting for one point five

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Speaker 6: percent of our exports. And we need to step it

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Speaker 6: up because with four hundred and forty five million people

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Speaker 6: in India's middle classes, I think the economic growth opportunities

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Speaker 6: obviously speak for themselves, but there is so much more

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Speaker 6: to our relationship also than just our economic ties.

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Speaker 2: We know that Luxen is going to meet with the

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Speaker 2: Indian prime Minister Naranda Mody, a man who's known for

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Speaker 2: some bold and controversial decisions, most recently. I'm thinking the

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Speaker 2: contentious agriculture reforms in twenty twenty, which was forced to

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Speaker 2: drop a year later after those mass protests from farmers.

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Speaker 2: How do you think Luxon, as a man and a politician,

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Speaker 2: is going to go at negotiating with a man like Mody.

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Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of positives. See you

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Speaker 1: currently Mody or Indian government. What they're looking is at

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Speaker 1: how you can grow India and how you can add

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Speaker 1: value to India. And if I understand the experience which

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister Luxen have currently working in a corporate sector

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Speaker 1: with in the term lever also which is a part

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Speaker 1: of Unilever. If you know, if you recall he knows

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Speaker 1: bits and pieces, or say, I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: things for India which can be useful and if you

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Speaker 1: talk India needs help to grow India and if you

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Speaker 1: talk that we will be in the right position to

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Speaker 1: do a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of things right. So this might be an area where

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Speaker 2: Luckson's corporate speak might help it great.

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Speaker 1: Agreed, So the corporate speak, the understanding of India, the

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Speaker 1: like if you can get things done that will be

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Speaker 1: helpful with India. New Zealand will get a lot of

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Speaker 1: benefit in terms of the relations which we have and

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Speaker 1: the amount of activity we have done in last twenty

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Speaker 1: four months or say twelve months. Lately there are eleven

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Speaker 1: to twelve meetings with ministers that is actually adding value.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the best outcome will come from

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Speaker 2: Luckson's trip to India.

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Speaker 1: See one thing which is very clear. We are taking

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Speaker 1: the biggest delegation. We are actually getting the I involved. Also,

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Speaker 1: the benefit is that you are showing that we are

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Speaker 1: open for business. You're showing that we are here to

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Speaker 1: make our relationship were not are transational and the repeating

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Speaker 1: that message and joining major events in India like Rice

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Speaker 1: and a dialog is something which can show that Yep,

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Speaker 1: New Zealand is on a very good position to trade

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Speaker 1: with India in a bigger numbers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us brat.

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Speaker 1: Great, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at NZ Herald dot co dot MZ. The Front Page

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Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is

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Speaker 2: also our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the

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Speaker 2: front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 2: and tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.