1 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: Yesh yet it is the third of September and the 2 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: year of Our Lord, twenty twenty four. Welcome all you 3 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: bespoke you Donkies the Daddy Bespoke Podcast. You'll notice that 4 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: I did that Let's get busy in German. 5 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: Is that what that was? Yeah, it's weird. I thought 6 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: it was Dutch. No, it was German. 7 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: I did that in German because we're going alive to 8 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Berlin to talk to Norman Euler, who's the the writer, 9 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: the author of the New York Times best selling book 10 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Blit's one of my favorite books of all time about 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: meth and petamine use and drug use and by Hitler 12 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: and the Nazis. It's great book. If you haven't read it, 13 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: it's really really interesting. 14 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: It's one of those books that I bought and then 15 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 3: I read it, and then I recommended it to one 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 3: person and then I just haven't had that book back. 17 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 4: You know. 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 3: It's just kind of circulating through people. 19 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: They were giving it to someone else, and they're giving 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: it to someone else, and it is it's very very interesting. 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: It's actually but it kind of makes everything makes sense 22 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: with the with how the Nazis behaved with theirs and everything. 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: I think it's also quite interesting, Jerry, you would have 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: found it fascinating as well, I suppose, but also outside 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: of the nazis just what Germany as the country was 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: up to in that time before the Third Richer. 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: She was all on over there, oh ship, Yeah, everyone's 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: on what was the myth called? It was, yeah, perverting 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: storm storm purpose furtherton, I mean, and what the Purvertin 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: would do was basically myth, and all the army was 31 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: on it, and everyone was on it and helped them 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: march right through the night, and the pans of division 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: tanks could just roll on and roll on, and then 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: everyone arrived at the same time with the Luftwaffer, and 35 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,839 Speaker 1: that became their strategy of arriving at the same time. 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: But it was kind of because they were all on 37 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: myth so they could travel very fast. And then I 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: think they named the strategy after it after the Panza 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: division had traveled all night on myth and arrived at 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: the same time as the planes. 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: And interestingly, like myth in modern terms, things went south 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: quite quickly and ended up completely having a poser by 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: the end of it. When you don't have it rough 44 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 2: on the people coming down off. 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: It, well, they were fighting on the East and Front 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: against the Russians in the middle of winter. 47 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: Like I watched, I had the myth. Now, so were 48 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 3: they taking it in pill form? It was like a 49 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: little yeah, just kind of pills that people were popping. 50 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: The book's really interesting. But he's got this new book 51 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: out called Tripped, and that's about acid use by the 52 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: Nazis and or their intention to use acid as a 53 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: truth serum and the CIA as well, and the dawn 54 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: of the psycholatolic age and a look into how acid 55 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: can help with Alzheimer's and depression anxiety in PTSD. And 56 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: there's a lot in there about microdosing. 57 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: There's a lot of a lot about this and this 58 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: sort of stuff nowadays. Yeah, happening for a while at 59 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: Johns Hopkins University with yes, psilocybin studies and all sorts 60 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: of stuff. And there's one going on in New Zealand 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: as well. 62 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, in this book Tripped, Norman Oiler talks about 63 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: how acid studies was completely shut down and that was 64 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: part of Nixon's attempt to discredit hippies in the wake 65 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: of their anti anti Vietnam War rhetoric. 66 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so. 67 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: Really made acid the focus of that, you know, in slamming. 68 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: Them, just in terms of a logistical standpoint, Medie, I 69 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: see that it's your zoo that you've set up, so 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 3: you might have to crank that up on your phone 71 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 3: just quietly. One of those situations where the host has 72 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: got to be in the meeting before we can talk 73 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: to Norman Lappet homemade. 74 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: You saw how smoothly the Edmond went with my Ricky Morris. 75 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: And the other That wasn't that good? 76 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: That was the smoothest admin of all time? One one 77 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: text coming this time all done, he arrived on time. 78 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 3: That's credit. That's credits to Ricky Morris. That wasn't it? 79 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: It was smoothest silk. That's how you do Edmunds. This 80 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: is classical. 81 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: No, this is an absolute disaster. 82 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: That's not a disaster. It's okay. 83 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: Why he shouldn't be doing edmund It's okay, it's it's 84 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: not okay, it's not okay. All right, you should be panicky. 85 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 2: What's past it's not going to work to be able 86 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 2: to talk to. 87 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: One three. 88 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: One two three four one two. That's just before we 89 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: do it. I just need to just double check that 90 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: I'm getting the pronunciession of this right, because the worst 91 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: thing you can ever do is pronounce some of his name. 92 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: So here we go, tope on how to pronounce o 93 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: h l e R holler in Germany? In German? Here 94 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: we are all ller, you said, voice? Who is that Norman? 95 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 3: Or oh that was a longer one are you spelling? 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: Orler h l e r. 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: Like that? Or because there's a bit more of an 98 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: oiler in there, or if you go quickly, or yeah, 99 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 3: this is getting dangerous. I can feel it. There's too 100 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: much pressure on the name already. I can feel it. 101 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: You have much luck over the many. 102 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Zoom is trying to double check me. 103 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: Oh this is as so it should is it double authenticating? 104 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: Okay? 105 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: Sorry, guys, that would be sorry. 106 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: Okay, like just fucking kill me. 107 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: I know. 108 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: This is why. 109 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,679 Speaker 3: This is why Skype shipped the bed, because Scott started 110 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: doing thing. So that's what it was too difficult to 111 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 3: sign in. Just let me sign on, Just let me 112 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: father bitch up. 113 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: Okay, here we go. 114 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 3: You really, by the way, we could come through it 115 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 3: any point now, okay, all right, at any. 116 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: Point the normans Norman Orler. Okay, here we go, Here 117 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: we go, Here we go. We're coming up. 118 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: We got Okay, here we go one time code one 119 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: five six five one five and we're in. 120 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 3: Okay, we're in. That's good. Hopefully we can connect here. 121 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: Oh god, I'm Norman. 122 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, starting starting the meeting. I'm absolutely the meeting. 123 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 3: Nice work. 124 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 2: I'm loving this. This is so good. Okay, there's another 125 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: problem on the way through here. No, you don't hope 126 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: that there's another problem. 127 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: Come on join? 128 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: Why won't not let me join? Okay? 129 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so the meeting started? Has the meaning started for you? 130 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: Okay? 131 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: Hosters joined, We've let them know that you're here, and 132 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 3: Matt's twirly wheel joined with computer audio. 133 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: How are you sorry, Norman? That that was completely an 134 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: absolute organizational mess up from me, and so sorry for 135 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: the delay getting through to you. 136 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: It's classic Matt Norman. Obviously you have met Matt before, 137 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: but that's just classic Matt Edmund right there. Where do 138 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: we find you this morning? Well, nighttime, your time? I imagine. 139 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 4: In a small town in Germany called spy Blucoln. 140 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: What part of Germany is that? 141 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 4: In southwest French border south. 142 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: I went to a place called Freiburg once, which is 143 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: maybe not too far away from where you are. 144 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 4: Oh three hours, but also in the southwest of Germany. 145 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: Beautiful goodness me, that's a wonderful part of the world. 146 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: Did you know when you'd finished writing Blitz that it 147 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: was going to be such a massive success, it was 148 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: going to be a MESSI. 149 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 4: Is this pre pre interview? 150 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: We were sorry, we're already interviewing. 151 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 4: You, all right, okay, well, actually sorry. While I was 152 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 4: sitting While I was sitting in the most boring room 153 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 4: in Germany, which is the reading room of the Federal 154 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 4: Archives in a town called Koblin, because Germany is the 155 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 4: decentralized country, so the federal archive is actually not in 156 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 4: Berlin's and some small towns. I was sitting there and 157 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: I was looking at the actual notes of Hitler's personal physician, 158 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: Theo Morrel, and no one had looked at his notes 159 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 4: before for some strange reason, because Hitler is like the 160 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 4: most examined person in German history. While I was reading 161 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 4: these notes and they was so interesting, I realized that 162 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 4: this book actually is going to be of interest to 163 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 4: other people as well. So it was not a lead 164 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 4: the price because it was kind of interesting for me 165 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 4: to research it. So I thought, if it's so interesting 166 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 4: for me to research. It's probably also interesting for people 167 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 4: to actually read it. 168 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: You know, you say it's the most boring room in 169 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: the entire world, but there must be moments when you 170 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: come across notes like that, and and also there's a 171 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: bit and tripped as well. When you're going through these 172 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: archives and seeing these things. It must be incredible to 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: see these documents and read it. That must be a 174 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: huge buzz. 175 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 4: I mean, the room is boring, so that the architecture 176 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 4: of the room and the design of the it's a 177 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 4: very These archives are very uninsuming. But obviously the big 178 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 4: contrast is what you find in the documents if you 179 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 4: are lucky enough to find something, so that that contrast 180 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 4: is quite thrilling. That's why I actually like archives. They're 181 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 4: one of my favorite places because they're really they bring 182 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 4: you very close to the to the truth in a way, 183 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 4: because you're handling the original. You're not just reading what 184 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 4: some other person has written down. You know, you're not 185 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 4: you're not recycling stuff. You're actually looking at at sources 186 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 4: and then you know, come up with your own narratives. 187 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 4: So our archives are great. 188 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: Actually, well that's interesting, isn't it, Because most history books 189 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: are just people reading other history books and then pulling 190 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: together other history books and writing a book based on 191 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: other books, as opposed to what you do, which was 192 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: go to the source. 193 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 4: Well, I'm not a historian, not a trained historian in 194 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 4: any case. I'm I'm a writer. I'm a novelist. Actually, 195 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 4: I invent things. So when I decided to write my 196 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 4: first non fiction book, which is Blissed, I thought that, 197 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 4: you know, the proper ways to go to the archives. 198 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 4: I thought every historian does that. And then after spending 199 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 4: weeks and weeks and weeks in the archives, never meeting 200 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 4: a history and I realized that actually historians don't do 201 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 4: that because it's very time consuming. So my my out 202 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 4: of the box of approach was was kind of fruitful 203 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 4: in this in this in this case at least, and. 204 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 2: Let's you discuss the huge amount of myth the Nazis 205 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: were on. What's the Nazi connection to Acid? 206 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 4: Well, the Nazis were very paranoid people, and that paranoia 207 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 4: that everyone is against them and that the enemy is everywhere. 208 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 4: That feeling got stronger as the war went on. Because 209 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 4: the war, you know, obviously it didn't go well for 210 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 4: the Nazis, so they suspected that, you know, they're more traders, 211 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 4: like in their own ranks. And then they had the idea, 212 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 4: the the Gestapo and the SS had the idea to 213 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 4: develop what they call the truth drug. They were they 214 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 4: were very interesting drugs from the beginning. And when when 215 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 4: the tag was burning in nineteen thirty three and then 216 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 4: it was a suspect, a Communist suspect, they already gave 217 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 4: this person drugs to kind of get all the secrets 218 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 4: out of him. So they tried to perfect that that 219 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 4: that third that they try to actually find the truth drug, 220 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 4: like a drug you give to someone and then that 221 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 4: someone will tell you everything he or she knows without 222 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 4: you know, being able to hold anything back. So that 223 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 4: in nineteen forty three when also the assassination attempts again 224 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 4: sit there were on the rise. I mean it wasn't 225 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 4: just one, it was like many attempts on his life. 226 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:39,239 Speaker 4: So he especially became extremely paranoid and saw great as everywhere. 227 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 4: So the search for the truth drug was coming all 228 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 4: the way from you know, the order was coming all 229 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 4: the way from the top. So what could be the 230 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 4: truth drug? Masculine was a candidate they started and they 231 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 4: as started to do tests with masculine in the concentration 232 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 4: camp of Daha. They gave they that put a little 233 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 4: they put drops of masculine and coffee and then gave 234 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 4: that to inmates and then when you know, the drugs 235 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 4: started to work, they would then the AS officer would 236 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 4: then say things like, I think, you know, I know 237 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 4: that you are having very strange thoughts right now because 238 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 4: I can actually be into your mind right now, and 239 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 4: I think it's better if you reveal everything you know. 240 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 4: So they were trying to develop kind of brainwashing techniques 241 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 4: like that. The problem with masculine was that it's it's bitter, 242 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 4: so it's not so easy to give it to someone 243 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 4: without that person knowing. So they were on the look 244 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 4: for better truth truth drugs. And then forty three, as 245 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: we all know, LSD was discovered in Switzerland, which is, 246 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 4: you know, quite close to Germany. And what I found 247 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: in the archives of the pharmaceutical company that discovered LSD 248 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 4: would his sounds a Swiss company. They'll see all was 249 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 4: best friends with the leading Nazi biochemist Richard Kuhn, So, 250 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 4: the Swiss CEO Artwa Stoler, and the German biochemist Richard Kuhn. 251 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 4: They had been friends for in since the twenties. They 252 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 4: had been exchanging all their research because they had had 253 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 4: the same teacher, which was Richard bridge At, a Jewish 254 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 4: German biochemist who won the Nobel Prize, and he had 255 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 4: these two, these two students that were outstanding. One was Stole, 256 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 4: who became pharmaceutical CEO in Switzerland and the other one 257 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 4: became Hitler's favorite biochemists. So, you know, they changed in 258 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 4: the twenties and early thirties. Was harmless, I mean, it 259 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 4: was just exchange between scientists. But in forty three when 260 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 4: Stole you know, messaged to Kuhn that in Battle they 261 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 4: had found this mysterious substance that they call LSD lazergic 262 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 4: acid the ethylmite, which working very intensely on the mind. 263 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 4: But they don't really know what it is because the 264 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 4: company didn't know in the beginning what LSD was good for. 265 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 4: They had Cood in Heidelberg in charge of developing a 266 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 4: truth drug for Pitler became very interested in it, and 267 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 4: he actually got sent material from Basil. And then the 268 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 4: Nazis had LSD, and because the Nazis had LSD and 269 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 4: became interested in it and testing it. Then also in Dakhau. 270 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 4: The Americans became interested in LSD when they liberated Dakhau 271 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,359 Speaker 4: and found the SS reports on these tests and inmates 272 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 4: with psychedelic molecules. 273 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: Did it work? 274 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: Is there any truth serum? Does any truth smer serum exist? 275 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: And did LSD work as a truth serum at all? 276 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 4: The Nazis weren't sure because they had just started the 277 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 4: tests and then you know, they lost the war and 278 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 4: they couldn't continue with the research. So these these initial 279 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 4: reports but that s S did, were then evaluated by 280 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 4: the Americans by a Harvard professor who was the advisor 281 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 4: to the American military. Beacher was his name, Professor Beecher, 282 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 4: and he wrote that LSD could very well become such 283 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 4: a truth drug if applied properly, you know, to unwitting unwittingly, 284 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 4: and with the uh you know, proper questionings and interrogation, 285 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 4: you know techniques. So he wrote reports that he called 286 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 4: h reports on ego depressant drugs, because that is what 287 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 4: LC actually does. It depresses the ego, which means the 288 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 4: place in the brain that kind of creates our reality 289 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 4: and kind of lets us function in day to day life. 290 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 4: Receives less energy when a person is on all the 291 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 4: and other parts of the brain actually become more active. 292 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 4: This is this is actually the beauty of LSD. But 293 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 4: if you want to use lstin in a negative way, 294 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 4: you could. The Americans thought it depresses the egos of 295 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 4: the person becomes less secure in his or her thinking, 296 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 4: and that is actually true, you know, because your brain 297 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 4: opens up to other possibilities, and if someone would be 298 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 4: very skilled, like a policeman or an intelligence officer, he 299 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 4: or she could try to, you know, use that situation 300 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 4: to his or her advantage. But you know, LSD is 301 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 4: it's not really a fool proof truth serum at all 302 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 4: because usually it's just you know, people can't really be 303 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 4: interrogated anymore like they do to develop their own thoughts. 304 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 4: They you know, they they realize what situation they are in. 305 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 4: So it never really worked. It was promising for the 306 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 4: intelligence uh services, first the Nazis and then the Americans, 307 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 4: but it's never really worked as a truth theorem because 308 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 4: it's actually quite the opposite. I mean, it is a 309 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 4: truth theorem in the way that it actually lets you 310 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 4: the more, lets you see your own situation more clearly. 311 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: But it's not a truth theorem in a sense that 312 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 4: someone can give it to you and then manipulate you. 313 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 4: That never really worked with LSD, and it actually took 314 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 4: the Americans like ten years to find that out. 315 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: So what happened after that in terms of the therapeutic 316 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: research of eliots day. 317 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 4: When Sanders first discovered in forty three, they were very 318 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 4: curious about how they could use it. And the first 319 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 4: thing they did was they created an intoxication room within 320 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 4: the company and they invited everyone working for the company, bookkeepers, chemists, 321 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 4: the CEO, managers, you know, everyone who worked for this 322 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 4: big company could go into the intoxication room, take and 323 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 4: then kind of talk about the experiences to a secretary 324 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 4: who was typing everything up. And these reports that I 325 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 4: all read and that I that I quote in tripped. 326 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 4: They were very positive, like people really loved the experience. 327 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 4: They said, for the first time, I feel very connected 328 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 4: with nature, with myself, I realized my position in life. 329 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: And I mean all these things that we also experienced today, 330 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 4: they were experienced for the first time in nineteen forty three. 331 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 4: So the company thought there's a I mean, the company 332 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 4: was thinking that maybe they have a game changer. In 333 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 4: their hands in terms of mental health, because this was 334 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 4: World War Two, millions of people were traumatized. There were 335 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 4: no medicines available at the time. There were no anti depressants, 336 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 4: antipsychotics like we unfortunately, I say, but I mean we 337 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 4: have them today, but at the time that was not so. 338 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 4: They thought maybe LSD is that is that thing. And 339 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 4: there was very serious LSD research until basically the mid sixties, 340 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 4: when when LSD was most made illegal by the US government. 341 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 4: There was there was the negative or the CIA research 342 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 4: which was trying to utilize it for the for the 343 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 4: good of the CIA or the good of the military 344 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 4: abusing LSD, I would say. And on the other hand, 345 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 4: that was always until the mid sixties, the research that 346 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 4: was trying to figure out could this be turned into 347 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 4: a medicine? Is this actually healthy to take LSD? Is 348 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 4: this a brain food? Is this good for our brain? 349 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 4: Because it does reduce neuroinflammation, which is the chief cause 350 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 4: for mental illness and dementia, And neuroinflammation is reduced by LSD. 351 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: It increases neuroplasticity, which is the ability of the brain 352 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 4: to reorganize itself according to the situation it finds itself 353 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 4: in so there was always a lot of very hopeful 354 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 4: LSD research until that was blocked by the American President Johnson, 355 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 4: and only recently LSD research has been allowed again. So 356 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 4: we're basically back at the back at square one, trying 357 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 4: to figure out how we can actually use this for 358 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 4: mental health and not for some manipulation or brainwashing. 359 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: Why was that a banned by the American government? What 360 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: were they trying to do with banning it. 361 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 4: I mean, if we look at why drugs are banned, 362 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 4: especially in the United States, we don't see a lot 363 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 4: of scientific reasons for banning drugs because they might be dangerous. 364 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 4: Obviously a lot of substances are dangerous or are difficult 365 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 4: to use. But the reasons for a drug prohibition in 366 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 4: America have been have been very different. They actually quite 367 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 4: the reason that actually is actually racism. The first anti 368 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 4: drug person, Antling at the head of the Federal Bureau 369 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 4: of Narcotics, was a racist, and he was he was 370 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 4: going against what he called marijuana, which was before known 371 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 4: as cannabis. He gave it a foreign name, a Spanish 372 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 4: sounding name, marijuana, and he claimed that Mexican immigrants, uh 373 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 4: and Afro Americans were using mostly marijuana to you know, 374 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 4: improve their sexual skill, to lure white women into bed. 375 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 4: So he was that that that that was the beginning 376 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 4: of making cannabis uh illegal. And the reason to make 377 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 4: LSD illegal about thirty years later was not because it 378 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 4: was proven that LSD was dangerous to people's health, but 379 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 4: it was just a tool, and this was actually quite 380 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 4: important at the time. It was a tool to fight 381 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 4: the peace movement in the United States. In the United States, 382 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 4: which was growing exponentially during the Vietnam War, and the 383 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 4: peace movement was fueled by massive consumption of LSD. It 384 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: was the famous you know, tune in, uh turn on, 385 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 4: tune in, drop out, a thing that that learly propagated. 386 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 4: So you take LSD and you you become a peace 387 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 4: nick basically, which is kind of a ridiculous statement, but 388 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 4: it is a fact that the peace movement was using 389 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 4: a lot of LEDD. And one of the advisers to 390 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 4: the president later said, was it possible for us to 391 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 4: make demonstrations against the war illegal? Not really, we couldn't. 392 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 4: We couldn't do that because we are a democracy. But 393 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 4: could we make drugs illegal? Yes, we could, and we 394 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 4: could make led illegal, and that way we could go 395 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 4: against you know, anybody basically going onto the streets and 396 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 4: demonstrating against the Vietnam War. So it was, it was 397 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 4: it was a political move. It was not a move 398 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 4: to protect people's health. 399 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: Norman obviously in Blitz, do you talk about Perverton and 400 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: metamine use and amongst Germany Nazi Germany and something nowadays? Obviously, 401 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: certainly in this country anyway, we've got a lot of 402 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: mythm phetamine use and trips. You're talking about lisd obviously 403 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: both too. Drugs. Have you thought in terms of your 404 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: research did you think at the time that you needed 405 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 2: to take those drugs as part of your research as well? 406 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 4: To be quite honest, while I was writing about Hitlers 407 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 4: drug abuse, a friend of mine suggested that we make 408 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 4: an art installation. He's quite a known artist at Dargess Gordon. 409 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 4: He said, we we we put someone into a gallery 410 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 4: and give that per all the drugs that Hitler has taken. 411 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 4: But then we realized this would really be inhumane, you know, 412 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 4: it would be it would it could It would not 413 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 4: be a nice experiment for that person. And I don't 414 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 4: like I don't take all the drugs that I write about. 415 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 4: It would be quite suicidal to take everything that Hitler took, 416 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 4: especially the crazy mix that he took, absolutely absolutely insane. 417 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 4: But I was curious about methon phetamine. I thought, I 418 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 4: thought of Paul Schrader, the writer of Taxi Driver, who 419 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 4: said that he always carried a pistol. He always had 420 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 4: a pistol in the draw of his writing desk when 421 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 4: he was writing the movie Taxi Driver because he felt, 422 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 4: you know, he felt closer to the subject he was 423 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 4: writing about that. I wanted to have one gram of 424 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 4: mathon phetamine at least in my in my on my 425 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 4: writing desk, to be closer to the to the material. 426 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: I asked a woman, she's a she's a wheat dealer, 427 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 4: cannabis dealer, uh in Berlin. I said, can you also 428 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 4: get crystal meth? And she was like totally against it. 429 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 4: She didn't no, I don't want to get into that. 430 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 4: But eventually she said, I know someone actually has it. 431 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 4: So she brought me one gram of crystal meth, and 432 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 4: the guy who delivered it to her put a zerox 433 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 4: copy of the German patent of nineteen thirty eight of 434 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 4: methamphetamine with the graham of crystal meth, which I thought 435 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 4: was amazing because that guy didn't even know that I 436 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 4: was writing about it, so he was a crystal meth 437 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 4: dealer who had like a historical knowledge that this at 438 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 4: one point actually had been a legal German product. In 439 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 4: regards to LSD, I tried LSD for the first time 440 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 4: when I was twenty two. My girlfriend at the time 441 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 4: gave it to me in New York. I had no 442 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 4: idea what it was. My brain functioned completely differently for 443 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 4: eight hours, and me being an artist, I thought that 444 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 4: was quite fascinating. I also didn't have any hangover or 445 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 4: any bad physical feeling afterwards. So I tried it again. 446 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 4: And I mean the book tripped in at first was 447 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 4: called LEDD for Mom because I have read during the 448 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 4: research on LSD that an American startup company he lose 449 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 4: it I had had to, had produced a white paper 450 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 4: which showed that clinical trials of alzheimer patients using low, 451 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 4: very low dosages of LSD had cognitive improvements. And since 452 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 4: my mother is suffering from alzema, we discussed it in 453 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 4: our family. Should we not use LSD, should we not 454 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 4: give should my mother not take LSD in low dosages 455 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 4: against her dementia? And she did she wanted to try 456 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: it and the effects were quite good, so we stuck 457 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 4: to it because for her it was I mean, she 458 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 4: took LSD and she was Her cognitive abilities in proved tremendously. 459 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 4: She was able to communicate much better to us than before, 460 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 4: she was in a better mood. And this happens whenever 461 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 4: she takes it. She doesn't take it all the time, 462 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 4: but whenever she takes the drop of microdosed LSD once 463 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 4: a week or something like that, she has a definite 464 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 4: improvement of her condition. So unlike methamphetamine, which I think 465 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 4: is a very unhealthy substance, I think LSD is actually 466 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 4: a brain food is completely misunderstood by our society and 467 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: should be completely reevaluated to combat diseases like depression, dementia, trauma. 468 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 4: So I personally think, and I'm not encouraging people to 469 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 4: use it, but for me, I think it's I'm very 470 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: happy that I discovered it. 471 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: To be quite honest, when training you talk about marcrotizing, 472 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: so your mum's having little bits. But some of these 473 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,479 Speaker 1: studies around depression, so just a I guess you'd call 474 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: it a macro dose. Like they've had some studies that 475 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: say just one big trip. Can you know that's monitored 476 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: and done safely can have a huge effect on depression. 477 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: So with Alzheimer's is a micro dolcing, and depression is 478 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: it macro dolsing. 479 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 4: I mean, the problem is that the research did get 480 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 4: stopped in the sixties and only picked up again, mostly 481 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 4: after twenty fifteen, when at John Hopkins University in the 482 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 4: United States, Professor Griffith made the first clinical tests that 483 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 4: showed that philosdybin, which is the molecule in so called 484 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 4: magic mushrooms, which psilocybin B is quite similar to LED 485 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 4: they're like cousins, is effective in high dosages against depression 486 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 4: that cannot be treated otherwise. But we don't know enough yet, 487 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 4: like we need another ten years of research, and there's 488 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: still because these substances are still illegalized in many countries, 489 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 4: it's very hard for researchers to go ahead. So I 490 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 4: don't know. Maybe large dosages are even better against alzheimer 491 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 4: but we don't do that in the family because we 492 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 4: don't have any scientific proof for that. And you know, 493 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 4: my mother is an old lady. She's not into like 494 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 4: experimenting with drugs basically, but she's fine with the microdose. 495 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 4: With the microdosing, I have no problem taking high dosages myself, 496 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 4: and I'm not depressed at all. I don't know if 497 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 4: that comes from the LC. I think we just need 498 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 4: a lot more research. But everything we know so far 499 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 4: about the psychedelic molecules seems to point in the direction 500 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 4: that many diseases could be cure it either in the 501 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 4: high or low dosages with these with these substances. 502 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: Now, going back to Blutz, we have always this is 503 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: a question that I was asking all the way through 504 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: the book to myself. We've always celebrated in New Zealand 505 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: as a member of the ANZACs and helping with the 506 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: Allied forces. We have celebrated long and hard our victory 507 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: against the Nazis as a you know, underdog victory. I 508 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: come back, but would it be true to say to 509 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: a certain extent that the Nazis defeated themselves with their 510 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: massive myth intake as much as we defeated them. 511 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 4: I mean, certainly the Nazers defeated themselves, because it's a 512 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 4: self destructive regime that that uh attack the whole world. 513 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 4: It's it's kind of ridiculous to I mean, that is 514 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 4: actually the underdog, like one country attacking every other country 515 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 4: on the planet. Yeah, I mean that country has to 516 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 4: was basically, But I would I would say that the 517 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 4: Allied forces were fighting quite bravely and quite they were 518 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: quite determined, and they had to be determined, because the 519 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 4: problem with the Nazis was they were so determined, like 520 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 4: they were really going at it. So especially the British 521 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 4: resistance and and and the and the other countries that 522 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 4: fought together with with Britain and the United States, just 523 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 4: like New Zealand for example, or Australia. I mean they 524 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 4: they did a great job. I mean they liberated also 525 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 4: US in Germany from from from this UH disease called 526 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 4: national socialism, the meta phetamine. It really had decisive effects 527 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 4: early on in the war. It enabled the Nazis to 528 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 4: beat Poland and France very quickly. They would never have 529 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 4: been able to do that without metham phetamine. So these 530 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 4: early successes also led Hitler into believing that he's basically unbeatable. 531 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 4: It also led into UH the attack against the Soviet Union. 532 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 4: And if I just praised the Western Allies, we certainly 533 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 4: have to praise the Red Army for really, you know, 534 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 4: fighting the German Army on the on the on the 535 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 4: you know, horrific Eastern Front. So I mean, it's it's 536 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 4: it's just to attack the Soviet Union. It's not rational, 537 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 4: you know, it's it's it's it can only come out 538 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 4: of a of a of a of a drugged mind, 539 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: or like a paranoid mind, or you know, it's it 540 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 4: doesn't make sense. You know, the Germany was still fighting 541 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 4: in the West, hadn't beat a great Britain yet, uh, 542 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 4: and then attacking the Soviet Union, so many many mistakes 543 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 4: were done on the German side. Obviously, the whole thing 544 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 4: was was was horrible and could never have succeeded. And 545 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 4: I think the methamphetamine was just a small aspect of 546 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 4: the German defeat. The big aspect of the German defeat 547 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 4: is you know, is you know, the hybrids of fascism 548 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 4: and of national socialism. 549 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 2: A new book is called Tripped Nazi Germany, the CIA 550 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 2: and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age. Norman, it's been 551 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 2: a great pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so 552 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 2: much for your time and best of luck with everything. 553 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 4: Thank you, it was a pleasure. It was a great one. 554 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 2: Thanks Norman. That was awesome. 555 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 4: All right, And is that going to be everywhere in 556 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 4: New Zealand. 557 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this will be out everywhere in New Zealand at 558 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: eleven am today our time, which is in a couple 559 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: of hours, and then and then we'll cut up but 560 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: because this is our podcast, will cut up butts for 561 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: our nationwide radio show for tomorrow morning. 562 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 4: Is there like a link you're going to send me 563 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 4: or shall I somehow find it? 564 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 3: Oh? 565 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: We can see you alone, not every grade. 566 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 4: I would be interested. 567 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: You can experience our unique technique of just going through 568 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: all the admin of trying to get the zoom call 569 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: up whilst we're recording. It's a revolutionary, utterly unprofessional technique 570 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: that we use. 571 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: You might be quite shocked when you listen to the 572 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 2: podcast and be like, oh my god, what a load 573 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: of crap. And then you'll hear the actual interview. But 574 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 2: and you'll be like, Okay, that's interesting. 575 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 4: I want to come to New Zealand. I hope it's 576 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 4: going to work out next year for the I think 577 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 4: that's like a book, a books thing in a reader. 578 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 2: There's the Writer's Festival. 579 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: Oh you've got to come you. You wouldn't believe how 580 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: how popular your book is down here. Yeah, you know 581 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: Bloodstone then and now tripped. 582 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 4: Well that's cool. 583 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, well if you if you come down, look us up. 584 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: We're quite easy to find as a very very small country, 585 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 2: but look us up and. 586 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 4: It'd be great to meet in your studio. 587 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll take you out somewhere somewhere cool. Thank you, Hi, 588 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 2: Thanks Apes Norman, thanks for your time there. 589 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: He is interesting, isn't it. That's so incredible. 590 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 3: I love hearing also Germans talk about Nazi Germany. I 591 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 3: think that's always a question. 592 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: I felt like because I felt bad because it's so 593 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: late for him, but there was another question. I was interested. 594 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: I'm always interested in how they celebrate there. You know, 595 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: we have our Anzac Day and we have our Dawn service, 596 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: and you know, you have all these soldiers that fought 597 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: in World War two and unlesla of them around now. 598 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: But those people, I mean, they went through a lot 599 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: as well, and not all of them. Wasn't all of 600 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: their fault that that Hitler is a crazy person. And 601 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: you know they've done some studies and not everyone was 602 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: supporting the Nazis, so you know, you didn't really have 603 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: a choice. I mean everyone everyone thinks now that if 604 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: it was that situation, then they'd be rebelling against the situation. 605 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: They everyone thinks, and particularly people that seem to be 606 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: following exactly the line of thinking today are the people 607 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: that are most likely to think that they would have rebelled. 608 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: But that was very hard to do. 609 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: If your family would be threatened and and your whole life, 610 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you took a huge amount of bravery. So 611 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: there were people that were fighting in that in the 612 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: in those wars that were they had no choice, you know, 613 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: and so they were they were they were victims in 614 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: the same way that that our a lot of our 615 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: our soldiers were. And but even the people that were 616 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: supporting the Nazi cause, I mean, how do you celebrate them? 617 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: You know, how do you have you do you have 618 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: your dawn services, do you have your statues, do you 619 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: have your memorials. 620 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's times. Having a look here at the German 621 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 2: public holidays and there's New Year's Day, there's Epiphany which 622 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 2: is on the sixth of January. Then there's International Women's 623 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 2: there's Easter, and then on the eighth of August is 624 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: Augsburg High Peace Festival. Then there's a sum Day which 625 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 2: is on the fifteenth of August. There's will children to say, 626 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: there's German Unity Day, there's Reformation. 627 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: Day, so they don't do Inzact Day. 628 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,439 Speaker 2: There's no repentance and preor day, Christmas Day day, there's 629 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: no there's no Anzi. 630 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's you celebrate the alloyed troops the Axis. 631 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: I mean Reformation Day. That must be that's a reformation 632 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 2: between East and West Germany. Yeah, right, because I imagine what's. 633 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: Really interesting in the start of his new book Tripped, 634 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: when it's talking about just the state of Berlin after 635 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: and all of Germany, but it's particularly talking about the 636 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: state of Berlin after the war when the entire government 637 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: had been destroyed obviously by the Allied forces and the 638 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,919 Speaker 1: Russians coming in from the east. So they had no law, 639 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: no they were trying to There was just cues of 640 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: people like picking up rubble, just actually a lot of 641 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: women just picking up rubble and moving the rubble just 642 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: to try and create a life. Again, there's no police force, 643 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: there's no government, there's no laws, and there's this huge 644 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: black market going on everything. Every one's trading everything. There's 645 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,959 Speaker 1: incredible amount of drug use that's going going down because 646 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: what do you do, like you wouln't even able to 647 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: see a future at that point. You've just absolutely and 648 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: rubble everything was destroyed. 649 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 2: And also all of your industry was pretty much wiped out. Yeah, 650 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: so there wasn't much being manufactured I imagine by that 651 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 2: stage because the Allies were just bombing the absolute Bejesus 652 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: out of everything. I mean some of these cities. 653 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: And you've got to say credit to the Germans for 654 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: pulling the record time, pulling it round to being, you know, 655 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: especially West Germany. East Germany had its own sort of 656 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: challenges with the being part of behind the Iron Curtain 657 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: or whatever, but Germany quickly became an absolute economic powerhouse 658 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: from absolutely nothing just through the fifties and sixties, seventies 659 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: starting again. 660 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 2: But I mean the whole of Europe as well. So 661 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 2: much of Europe was completely decimated. I mean not so 662 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 2: much of England was last year. 663 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: Well, interestingly, post war England, the UK had really struggled financially, 664 00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: and they won the war. 665 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 2: It wasn't until this what wasn't until the eighties. 666 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, when they came back. 667 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: Took them thirty years. 668 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: Because America was like, hey, you borrowed a bunch of 669 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: money to the Americans really screwed them on the. 670 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 2: They did well out of it, didn't they. And also 671 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: they had no rebuilding to do in America, so they 672 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 2: just they just kept going. 673 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: That's the reason why New Zealand got so rich because 674 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: we fought in the war, but we had to do 675 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: no rebuilding because we were never We just we just 676 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: got to sell products to England and heaps a wall. Yeah, yeah, 677 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: so the game, give me a taste the Kiwi but yeah, 678 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: his box fantastic. 679 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 3: I fink that was interesting. 680 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, thanks everyone. Okay, I'm sorry about the zoom call. 681 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure his fault. That was at the start, 682 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: but someone hadn't organized it properly, So apologies from from 683 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: me to for whoever it was that that that cocked 684 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: that up. 685 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 3: And Norman, if you are listening, like you said you 686 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 3: might be, thanks for coming on. And impressive English as well, 687 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 3: I should say that. 688 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 2: I'm sure he writes a lot for a while. 689 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: I went to school in America as. 690 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 3: Well, rights and English supposed as well. Doesn't he. 691 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: Judge, Well, there's another really interesting thing and tripped when 692 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: he has to like so his dad as a judge, 693 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: a very very successful German judge who's put people in 694 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: prison for. And then he has to convince his dad. 695 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: The hardest thing he has to do is convince his 696 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: dad that to give his mom LSD, to prove that 697 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 1: he's a very logical man his dad and go through 698 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: and say this is why LSD is morally okay to 699 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: give to. 700 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 3: Mom, right, you know, and interesting dynamic. 701 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, his dad was born in nineteen forty three, 702 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 2: so right at the end of the war. I mean 703 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 2: right right, right at the end of the war. I 704 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 2: mean he was born as the Allies were invading. So 705 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 2: his nineteen forty four German he's surrendered, one. 706 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 3: Of the last babies before the boomers. I suppose is 707 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 3: he the generation then before the baby? 708 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: But if you're forty three, I think you are. 709 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the same age as my dad. He's a boomer. 710 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. She said, when your dad was born and my 711 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,959 Speaker 1: dad born into a world of uncertainty, wasn't it. Oh yeah, yeah, 712 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: for the parents having a child in the middle of 713 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: World War. 714 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, although, but then growing up in the nineteen fifties 715 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 2: in New Zealand and my dad telling me that things 716 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 2: were very certain, Yeah, very wealthy New Zealand and the 717 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties. 718 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: Most wealthy country in the world. Through the fifties and sixties, 719 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: very well fell off a cluff about seventy. 720 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: The world shocked and it really share. The EU was 721 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 2: not going to trust. 722 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, the EU fucked us. Right, okay, right, it's not 723 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: slipping in New Zealand history. Okay, all right then, okay, 724 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: all right, seem basill. 725 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 4: Let you go. 726 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 3: Okay, then, hello. 727 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,959 Speaker 1: I'm Matt Heath. You have been listening to the Matt 728 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: and Jerry Daily Bespoke podcast. Right now you can listen 729 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: to our Radio Highlights podcast, which you will absolutely get 730 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: barred up about anyway. Set to download, like subscribe, wright 731 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: review all those great things. It really helps myself and 732 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: Jerry and to a lesser extent, Mash and Ruder. If 733 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: you want to discuss anything raised in this pod, check 734 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: out the Conclave, a Matt and Jerry Facebook discussion group. 735 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: And while I'm plugging stuff, my book A Life is 736 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: Punishing Thirty Ways to Love the Life You've Got is 737 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: out now get it wherever you get your box or 738 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: just google the bastard. Anyway you seem busy, I'll let 739 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: you go. Bless blessed, blessed, give them a taste of 740 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: keiw from me.