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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from newstalk ZEDB.

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Speaker 2: World Rugby is taking legal action over the online abuse

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Speaker 2: of players and match officials at last year's Rugby World Cup.

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Speaker 2: During the tournament, more than nine hundred social media accounts,

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Speaker 2: including those belonging to all match officials, were monitored by

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Speaker 2: digital experts Signify Group. They flagged more than sixteen hundred

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Speaker 2: abusive accounts, resulting in ninety percent of the most serious

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Speaker 2: content being removed from online Signified Group also passed more

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Speaker 2: than two hundred alleged incidents across seven countries to law

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Speaker 2: enforcement and government agencies for their investigation, and those investigations

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Speaker 2: have progressed to the prosecution of one person in Australia

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Speaker 2: who will appear in court this week to face a

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Speaker 2: charge of online abuse. There are also multiple pending prosecutions

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Speaker 2: here in New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, France and the U.

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Speaker 2: And this comes as World Rugby released the groundbreaking film Whistleblowers,

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Speaker 2: which you can watch on Rugby Past TV stream at Live.

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Speaker 2: It's an access all areas documentary following the match officials

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Speaker 2: journey to and through the rugby World Cup, which also

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Speaker 2: highlights the scale of online abuse that they faced. World

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Speaker 2: Rugby Chief Executive is Allen Gilpin, who joins us now

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Speaker 2: on Weekend Sport. Ellen, thanks for the time you've taken

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Speaker 2: to join us. Can you please outline first of all

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Speaker 2: for us, what Signify group we're engaged to do for

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Speaker 2: World Rugby during the Rugby World Cup.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and pleasure to be speaking, Jason. We contracted Signify.

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Speaker 4: You know, we obviously coming into the tournament, knew that

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Speaker 4: there'd be a number of online episodes and issues that

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Speaker 4: we'd need to address, you know, and particularly that is

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Speaker 4: obviously addressing online abuse towards our match officials, particular referees.

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Speaker 4: You know, we've all seen it. Online trolling in sport

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Speaker 4: is sadly a reflection of a much deeper societal trend.

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Speaker 4: We need to make sure that we were doing all

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Speaker 4: we could to protect those match officials, you know, in

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Speaker 4: the most high profile event in rugby. Signifier important to

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Speaker 4: us because they actually go beyond modifying content, which a

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Speaker 4: number of other partners in that space do, where they

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Speaker 4: might just have content removed. They go they go deeper

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Speaker 4: than that. They're very actional or into them what they've

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Speaker 4: allowed us or enabled us to do, is get content

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Speaker 4: removed so that that content is taken and taken down

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Speaker 4: from the platforms fully. And in some cases where that content,

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Speaker 4: you know, ends up ultimately being crossing the line into

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Speaker 4: criminal activity, then prosecutions potentially follow, and there's some ongoing

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Speaker 4: activity in that regard.

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Speaker 2: Just on that, then, Ellen, is the strength of the

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Speaker 2: action you're taking here, you know, referring the worst stuff

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Speaker 2: to law enforcement authorities. Has it aimed more at being

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Speaker 2: a deterrent to online abusers or is it to provide

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Speaker 2: reassurance for your own match officials.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I think it's both, Jason, to be honest,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's obviously really important that we

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Speaker 4: make these match officials feel and believe and it is

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Speaker 4: the case that we that we are protecting them.

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Speaker 3: So that reassurance piece is really is really important.

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Speaker 4: If we're going to keep attracting brilliant match officials to

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Speaker 4: the sport, and we need brilliant match officials for a

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Speaker 4: growing sport, then we need to be reassuring them that

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Speaker 4: sport's taking their own protection seriously.

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Speaker 3: So that's absolutely important.

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Speaker 4: But as you say, there's a de terror part of

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Speaker 4: this we've got to really make people understand that hiding

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Speaker 4: behind an anonymous handle or a social media platform, you know,

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Speaker 4: being some kind of keyboard warrior in the heat of

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Speaker 4: the moment is not acceptable, and the abuse that's being

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Speaker 4: that's being kind of proliferated, is non acceptable. So if

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Speaker 4: we can get obviously some prosecutions behind this, I think

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Speaker 4: that sends an incredibly strong message to people that we will,

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Speaker 4: you know, we take this seriously and we will continue to.

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Speaker 3: Push forward on that.

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Speaker 4: And you know, as we sit here now, there are

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Speaker 4: kind of four active investigations in this space across Australia,

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Speaker 4: New Zealand, France, South Africa, and there are thirty plus

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Speaker 4: you know, further investigations being being pursued, So you know,

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Speaker 4: we want to take it seriously, want to create that

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Speaker 4: deterrent and make people understand that the worst types of

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Speaker 4: behavior have no place in our game.

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Speaker 2: How bad here's the online hate directed at match officials

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Speaker 2: become Well.

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Speaker 4: Look and we've seen it and we've released as you know,

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Speaker 4: this film Whistleblow is in the Last Week, which is

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Speaker 4: a brilliant documentary film that follows a group of match

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Speaker 4: officials through the pinnacle of their careers, because the Rugby

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Speaker 4: World Cups not just a pinnacle for a coach or

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Speaker 4: a player, it's a pinnacle for a match official. You know,

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Speaker 4: many of many of whom have been match officials from

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Speaker 4: from a very young age and come right through the

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Speaker 4: community game, so you know, they're in their pinnacle moment.

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Speaker 4: We've had this, say brilliant documentary film following them, and

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Speaker 4: one theme of that film is the abuse that match

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Speaker 4: officials are receiving as part of what they do. And

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Speaker 4: you know, in that film, you know, it confirms that

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Speaker 4: match officials are receiving death threats, threats to their families,

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Speaker 4: you know, abuse towards their their children. So you know,

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Speaker 4: it's really really bad in some cases. And again that's

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Speaker 4: a reflection of a deeper societal issue. We know that,

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Speaker 4: but we want to make sure that we are deterring

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Speaker 4: that activity in rugby for sure.

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Speaker 2: Something else that came out of your report and your

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Speaker 2: findings was evidence of a clear correlation between comments from

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Speaker 2: players and coaches after a game triggering abuse of those

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Speaker 2: metch officials from the wider section of the rugby community.

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Speaker 2: We had the case of Antoine du Pont, for example,

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Speaker 2: making comments about new Zealand referee Bin O'Keeffe after the

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Speaker 2: semi final rather quarter final loss at the Rugby World

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Speaker 2: Cup last year. Are the conversations that need to be

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Speaker 2: had with players and coaches as well to ensure that

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Speaker 2: they're not fanning the flames of this.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think there's a you know, again, we've highlighted

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Speaker 4: the severity of the issues that are occurring, and I

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Speaker 4: think now there's a really important ongoing education piece with

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Speaker 4: coaches and players to have them, exactly as you suggest,

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Speaker 4: understand that when they comment on referee performance, that gives

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Speaker 4: permission to this type of abuse.

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Speaker 3: And you know, therefore, you know.

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Speaker 4: We want to make sure that those coaches and players

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Speaker 4: understand that that's not appropriate and that the implications of

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Speaker 4: those actions. So absolutely there's a piece of work to

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Speaker 4: do there.

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Speaker 2: On the flip side of that, though, Ell, And there

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Speaker 2: is a perception, I guess there any comments about met

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Speaker 2: officials made by players and coaches afterwards as a bad thing.

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Speaker 2: But do you encourage and welcome constructive critiquing of your

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Speaker 2: mech officials by players and coaches.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and in no way is any of this work

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Speaker 4: about suppression of appropriate dialogue between coaches players you know,

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Speaker 4: match officials and you know, all of those discussions with

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Speaker 4: our sport, and we have some protocols around our coaches

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Speaker 4: in particular, can can get feedback from match officials on

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Speaker 4: why certain decisions were made and that allows obviously coaches

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Speaker 4: to understand and coach accordingly. So you know, it's not

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Speaker 4: about trying to suppress those conversations. It's about trying to

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Speaker 4: make sure those conversations happen in an appropriate way, you know,

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Speaker 4: ideally away from the heat of the moment of immediate

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Speaker 4: reaction and making sure that again we address the kind

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Speaker 4: of worst types of these behaviors in terms of online

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Speaker 4: abuse in particular. So yeah, we want, we want coaches

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Speaker 4: and players to be involved in a constructive dialogue with

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Speaker 4: our referees. That's good for everybody, but we want that

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Speaker 4: to happen in a way that that's more appropriate than

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Speaker 4: maybe it's happened in the past.

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Speaker 2: What about the players, ellen in terms of the abuse

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Speaker 2: they receive. What's your perception of the abuse directed at

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Speaker 2: players compared to that received by mitch officials.

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Speaker 4: Look again, you know, and sadly we've seen it again

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Speaker 4: through Rugby World Cup twenty twenty three in fronts, you know,

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Speaker 4: players receiving you know again, incredible online abuse around you,

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Speaker 4: any range of issues, performance related and non performance related.

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Speaker 4: And again whilst we you know, we fully understand that

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Speaker 4: again is part of a broader societal trend of kind

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Speaker 4: of online trolling and hatred, we don't want that in rugby.

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Speaker 4: So you know, again, the action that we took with

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Speaker 4: Signify throughout the tournament wasn't just about removing and taking

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Speaker 4: down and following up on the worst of that abuse

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Speaker 4: as it was directed to match officials, but that covered

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Speaker 4: all the players in the tournament as well, making sure

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Speaker 4: again that players families aren't being subjected to the type

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Speaker 4: of abuse and we're seeing it, aren't. We were seeing

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Speaker 4: it not just in rugby, but in other sports, the

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Speaker 4: kind of mental health issues that's greater for players, which

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Speaker 4: is which is totally understandable. So I think we as

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Speaker 4: a community in the sport have a responsibility to try

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Speaker 4: and address that.

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Speaker 2: Just picking up on that point regarding other sports anecdotally,

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Speaker 2: do you think the situation is better or worse in

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Speaker 2: rugby than other sports? And I guess I'll use football

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Speaker 2: as a comparison. We're this sort of thing just just

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Speaker 2: seems to be absolutely rife. Do you think rugby is

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Speaker 2: better or worse than other sports?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think exactly that is clearly, you know, a

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Speaker 4: factor in other sports. We talked to colleagues, you know,

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Speaker 4: working in other sports. It's certainly aimed at match officials

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Speaker 4: in other sports. And you mentioned football there, and we

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Speaker 4: absolutely see that, and I think other sports are following

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Speaker 4: the example of working with partners like Signify to try

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Speaker 4: and address that. You know, we've taken that action around

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Speaker 4: the pinnacle of our sport. The Rugby World Cup Men's

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Speaker 4: and Women's obviously are the big moments where the sport's

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Speaker 4: on its biggest global stage with the most people engaged

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Speaker 4: with a tournament. Other sports will see that in different ways,

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Speaker 4: whether it's on a more annualized basis or again, big moments,

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Speaker 4: and we want to make sure now having I guess

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Speaker 4: slightly uncovered some of this but also found some avenues

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Speaker 4: to start to deal with it and to create that

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Speaker 4: deterrent and that reassurance that we talked about, we've got

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Speaker 4: to continue to do that. That just can't start, start

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Speaker 4: and stop now around world clubs. We've got to protect

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Speaker 4: these match officials are ongoing basis.

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Speaker 2: We had been o'keith on the show yesterday talking about

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Speaker 2: his experiences in this area, and it kind of leads

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Speaker 2: or wider discussion. I get that. I guess that match

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Speaker 2: officials really are just bound by the rules of the game.

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Speaker 2: They are handed the rules of the game and have

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Speaker 2: to officiate accordingly, and I guess there's sometimes frustration around

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Speaker 2: the way they do that. But it's not as though

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Speaker 2: they can do a hic of a lot because the

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Speaker 2: rules are, as I say, handed to them. What do

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Speaker 2: you make of the current rules of the game of

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Speaker 2: rugby as they pertain to making it an entertaining spectacle

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Speaker 2: for fans.

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Speaker 3: It's difficult, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: I mean that rugby is a complex sport with a

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Speaker 4: complex set of laws, and you know, some of those

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Speaker 4: laws are easy for a match official to apply and interpret,

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Speaker 4: and others you know very much, you know the other

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Speaker 4: end of that spectrum, and there's complexity, you know, in

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Speaker 4: what is an incredibly impact for fast moving, fast paced sports,

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Speaker 4: So there's always a degree of interpretation and shades of gray,

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Speaker 4: if we can describe it as that. And of course,

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Speaker 4: the biggest spotlight in the biggest moments like world Cups,

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Speaker 4: So we're always in trusted in evolving the way that

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Speaker 4: rugby is played and officiated because we want a sport

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Speaker 4: that is brilliant to play, that is entertaining to watch,

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Speaker 4: that is as safe as it can possibly be, understanding

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Speaker 4: that it's a physical game by its very inherent nature.

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Speaker 4: So that's a continual process we have, as you can imagine,

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Speaker 4: a period of review after each Men's and Women's Rugby

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Speaker 4: World Cup to understand a bit more about that will

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Speaker 4: bring coaches, match officials, player groups, fan groups together in

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Speaker 4: the next month a month or so and start to

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Speaker 4: review that inttle bit more detail and what can we

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Speaker 4: evolve that again makes the game a better spectacle and

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Speaker 4: a safer game to play.

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Speaker 2: I guess you do have a lot of stakeholders as

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Speaker 2: you've outlined their players, coaches, met officials, but fans. I

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Speaker 2: mean you're in a bettle for eyeballs at you well,

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Speaker 2: and you know there are a lot of other options

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Speaker 2: for people, both in the sporting landscape and outside of

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Speaker 2: it as well. Is it your desire to make the

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Speaker 2: game as entertaining as possible for those who pay them

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Speaker 2: money to watch it?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? I think you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 4: We're we're in an attention economy now and that landscape

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Speaker 4: is changing all the time. You know, consumer behaviors around

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Speaker 4: sport are changing all the time. Sport provides something very unique.

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Speaker 4: We know that it's that sports only live wants you.

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Speaker 4: You can't time shift sport or record sport in the

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Speaker 4: way that you can other forms of entertainment. That's fantastic

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Speaker 4: and we're seeing people engage with that across all forms

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Speaker 4: of sport and in our case, across all forms.

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Speaker 3: Of rugby brilliantly.

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Speaker 4: But we've got to entertain those people if we want

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Speaker 4: them coming back, if we want them bringing their friends

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Speaker 4: and word of mouth and the job that that does

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Speaker 4: for growing a sport. So we've got to make sure

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Speaker 4: the sport's entertaining, and that means increasingly the emphasis is

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Speaker 4: looking at the sport through the eyes of the fan.

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Speaker 4: So how again, how can we make the sport more

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Speaker 4: entertaining to watch so it's more relevant to more people

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Speaker 4: more of the time. That's that's the kind of ongoing challenge.

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Speaker 4: At the same time, we've got to make sure that

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Speaker 4: the sport is safe as it can be, So how

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Speaker 4: do we evolve the laws and again the interpretation of

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Speaker 4: the laws and the way the game is officiated at

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Speaker 4: every level, whether that's a community game, people need to

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Speaker 4: be able to love playing that game.

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Speaker 3: They're going to continue to come back.

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Speaker 4: Right through to you know, to Rugby World Cups, where

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Speaker 4: you know, we drive massive global audiences and we need

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Speaker 4: to entertain those people so that they're watching rugby in

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Speaker 4: between those big pinnacle events.

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Speaker 2: It's a tricky balance to try and strike, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: If we just finished Ellen By looking forward, I guess

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Speaker 2: the style of a year is an opportunity to look

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Speaker 2: at what the year might hold. What are the big

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Speaker 2: challenges you're facing as twenty twenty four gets underway.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, we've got a sport that in many parts

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Speaker 4: of the world, and in many places and in many

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Speaker 4: ways is thriving and growing, and that's fantastic. Exactly as

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Speaker 4: we've said, We've got to make sure that the sport

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Speaker 4: is relevant and accessible for people, those who want to

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Speaker 4: play and those who want to watch. There's an entertainment

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Speaker 4: part of that. There's a making sure that we're doing

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Speaker 4: all of the hard work we need to be doing

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Speaker 4: around the world to coach, the coaches, get rugby in

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Speaker 4: place for the people who want to play it.

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Speaker 3: So those challenges are year to year.

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Speaker 4: I think when we look ahead at what we've got

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Speaker 4: in store in twenty twenty four, We've got some new

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Speaker 4: competitions coming up. We've got Olympic Games for sevens, which

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Speaker 4: is a huge moment for sevens. We know that sevens

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Speaker 4: again in many parts of the world is driving the

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Speaker 4: growth of rugby. Sevens on the Olympic stage will be

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Speaker 4: huge opportunity, as it always is for the sport. Brilliant

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Speaker 4: Olympics in Paris. We obviously know that venue quite well

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Speaker 4: from the event we had their last year, so you know,

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Speaker 4: we're really looking forward to that. We're looking forward to

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Speaker 4: the continuation of WXV, the women's competition that we started

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Speaker 4: last year that's really building women's fifteens. We're looking forward

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Speaker 4: to introducing later this year a revamped specific nations cut

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Speaker 4: that's giving a real opportunity to a number of a

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Speaker 4: number of nations. So yeah, a lot, as always a

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Speaker 4: lot going on, but some really exciting times for the sport,

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Speaker 4: and you know, rugby is a growing sport and we

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Speaker 4: want to make sure it continues to thrive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, busy old time. I get the feeling it always

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Speaker 2: has a busy time for you.

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Speaker 1: Llen.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking some of your time for a chat

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Speaker 2: to us this afternoon.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Jason, good to speak.

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Speaker 2: Good to speak to you too, Allen. That is chief

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Speaker 2: executive of World Rugby Allan Gilpin with us on Weekend Sport.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talk zed B weekends from midday or follow

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Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.