WEBVTT - Chris Hipkins on Labour's policies, coalition attacks, MMP and Covid regrets 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:05.840 Kyota. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.080 I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:16.759 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. From entering 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.560 Parliament in two thousand and eight to leading the country 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.520 in twenty twenty three, Chris Hipkins is no stranger to 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.479 the spotlight. During COVID's beginnings, he was known as a 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.360 safe set of hands, tackling education, health and becoming the 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:34.960 Minister in charge of the COVID response for a time. 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.640 Now he's firmly setting his sights on election twenty twenty six, 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.280 but is he confident he'll still be in Labour's driving 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:44.640 seat when it rolls around? 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:45.560 Today? 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.640 On the Front Page, Hipkins joins us to discuss the 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.040 cost of living, vibes around Parliament, and. 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.160 Whether he'll ever be able to shake COVID. 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.000 First off, Chris, we had David Seymour on a wee 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:03.880 while back. We asked him if it'd be open to 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.440 working with you. He said that would require Chris Hopkins 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.720 to be working. He then made an odd reference calling 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:14.080 you Pooh Midas, which I can only assume is replacing 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.320 gold with pooh. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.919 So is everything you touched he in to shit or something? 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:20.640 Oh? Look, I mean I think this is just what 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.200 we're seeing from this government, you know, and the culture 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.199 starts from the top, It starts in the Prime Minister, 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.560 Winston Peter's David Seymour down where they just think that 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.720 attacking people, belittling people, degrading people is what leadership looks like. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.120 I don't believe that. I'm all for a bit of 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.280 humor in politics, you know a little bit of a 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.240 sledge now and then where it's funny. That can add 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.400 to a bit of you know, political engagement. But they're 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.560 not very funny, and they're also not very good at it, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.760 so I think they should just stick to actually doing 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:51.560 what people ask them to do. You know, the New 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.000 Zealanders wanted them to fix the cost of living crisis. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.800 They wanted them to, you know, get the economy moving. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.520 They haven't done either of those things. Maybe they should 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.880 focus on them rather than sledging other people. 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.080 Well what about more recently, looks like you've got the 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.680 prime ministers go to little He said. I'm not taking 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.880 any lectures from frickin' Chris Hipkins or the Labor Party. 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.800 But why are you bothering people lately? Chris? Is it 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:14.800 getting a bit tasty? In Parliament at the minute. 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.040 I think it's getting The government's certainly feeling the pressure, 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.120 and they should be feeling the pressure because they made 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.040 people a whole lot of promises that they haven't delivered on. 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.480 But I remember standing next to Christopher Luxan during the 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.440 leader's debates where he said that, you know, families with 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.119 kids were going to be two hundred and fifty dollars 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.560 a fortnight better off if he became Prime minister. And 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.799 they haven't identified one single family that's two hundred and 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.760 fifty dollars a fortnight better off, and you know, food 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.520 prices are still going up. You know, households are still 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.560 really feeling the squeeze, and so I think the government 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.320 are feeling that pressure. Really, they shouldn't have made promises 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.119 that they didn't intend to keep, and so I think 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.120 that's why they're lashing out at everybody else. They're just 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.120 trying to find people to blame for that. And you know, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.360 on the other side, there's a lot of pressure coming 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.400 on us to say, well, what would labor do differently? 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.440 Shear your policies, But the point that I've been making 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.799 to people is I'm not going to put policies out 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.880 there unless I know that I can deliver on them, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:07.880 because I don't want to end up two years down 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:09.840 the track and find myself in the same position that 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.880 they're currently in, where I've promised stuff that I can't deliver. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.040 I think we've had way too much of that in 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.200 New Zealand politics, governments of all stripes making big, sweeping 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.760 promises for elections and then not delivering on them. So 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.160 we're keeping up how to dry on the policy front 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.440 deliberately because when we do announce it, I want to 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.040 know that we can do it, and we won't be 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.239 able to make that judgment till closer to the election, 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.880 once we see the shape the economies in and so on. 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:37.440 So you basically do want to have a look at 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.160 the books, maybe by next budget, and then you'll start 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:41.440 kind of trickling out stuff. 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:42.920 Is that how it works in an election? 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.320 It is, it's kind of about looking at the government's books, 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.080 but it's also about making sure we're doing the work 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.560 now and opposition you don't unlike in government. You know, 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:51.720 you don't have the entire public service doing the work 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:53.720 for you. You've got to do the work. So we're 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.960 looking at you know, what would things cost, how would 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.200 we actually deliver them. I think one of the valid 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.160 criticisms of us last time we were in opposition was 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.320 that we had some really good ideas, but we hadn't 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.920 worked through the detail of exactly how would we do that. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:09.760 And then when we got into government, we found that 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.080 some of the things that we said we were going 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.600 to do very well intentioned, we didn't have a clear 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:15.280 plan for how we would do it. And I think 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.000 the same thing has happened to this government. They've made 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.279 promises with no plan on how they're actually going to 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.279 do it, and I don't want to be in that position. 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.120 So we're going to take our time. I know people 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.240 are eager to hear what we want to do, but 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:28.080 I'm going to make sure that when I do go 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:29.760 out there and say label will do X, I can 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:31.880 then answer all the questions about it, and I can 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.080 tell people how we're going to do it, so that 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.800 they know that the promises we're making a credible and 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.680 ones that they can rely on us delivering. 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:45.520 On Well, mister Speaker, hasn't it been a shambolic year for. 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:46.360 The Labor Party? 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:46.680 Has that? 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.839 And I have to say, has there ever been a 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:50.560 leader of. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:55.359 The opposition with less substance than Chris Hopkins, because what 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.040 you get, what you get is a lot of carping. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.080 What you get is a lot of points of order, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.599 and you get a lot of wishy washy, don't you. 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.919 It's a lot of wishy washy because beneath it all, 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:09.719 they have no policies, zero policies, and they have no plan. 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.160 What is something that the party's tinkering away in the 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:16.479 background at the moment. 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:17.680 We're looking at a lot of things. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:19.400 I mean, I think if you look at what is 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.920 important to us, I said when I took over from 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.159 Jacinda that I wanted to see labor get back to 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.680 the core sort of things that are important. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.159 To labor, back to basic, back to basics. Jobs. 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.279 You know, it's in the name of the Labor Party. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.279 That's what the Labor Party was founded on the basis of, 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.320 you know, good jobs that mean people get well paid 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.480 and could have a better life. That's why the Labor 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.080 Party exists. So that's that's got to be front and 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.640 center for us. And at a time when unemployment's going up, jobs, jobs, jobs, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.560 is very very important. So jobs health because you know, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.840 if you don't have access to good quality health care. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.080 Then you're going to your options in life are going 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.719 to be limited. And homes. Everyone deserves a place to 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.880 call home. And if I've got so many the other 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.960 issues we deal with, it stems back to one of 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.360 those three things, or sometimes a combination of those three 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.840 things not not being where we need them to be. So, 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.280 you know, kids not going to school. Well, if your 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.839 family's moving around houses all the time because they haven't got, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.480 you know, somewhere that they can put down roots, that's 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.480 actually a big part of the problem. Kids who are 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.560 getting into trouble In many cases, it's because they're living transiently. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.120 So let's make sure everyone has a home. And then 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.360 I think more recently, you know, we were expecting that 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.919 once inflation was back down within the target band, that 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:33.839 cost of living would sort of drop off the radar 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.920 almost It hasn't. Cost of living is getting worse. So 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.000 I think we need re election on the cost of living, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:40.400 and it's going to have to be more than just 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.320 shouting at supermarkets and shouting at banks. It's going to 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.680 have to be things that government can actually do that 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.480 will tackle the cost of living for people. 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.960 Well, when it comes to that, I was doing some 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.760 research about it, and I mean, how do we make 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.760 sure that the price of butter doesn't get anywhere like 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:58.320 any more ridiculous? 0:06:58.360 --> 0:06:58.960 Do you know what I mean? 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.760 In the Great Depression, I know that the government introduced 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.880 subsidies for farmers and agriculture that kind of dropped off 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:07.880 in the seventies and eighties. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:09.680 Why can't we do something like that again. 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.400 Ultimately, we do live in a global market for that, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.880 and the real challenge for us is if we started 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.840 to do that sort of thing here, we potentially limit 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.360 our ability to then sell into the international market. It 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.240 would compromise our ability to trade internationally if we brought 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.480 back subsidies. I think there are real questions about our 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.280 New Zealander is paying too much for butter everyone's fixated 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.560 on but I've never spoken so much about butter in. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.200 My life as I have in the last week. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.160 But again, the government sort of shouting at Fontier is 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.000 not going to solve the problem. I think there are 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.720 real issues around the supermarket sector, around whether we've got 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.600 enough competition in the supermarket sector. But again, just talking 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.480 about it, admiring the problem, it's not going to solve it. 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.280 So what's the government actually going to do in that 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.880 space to get better competition in supermarkets, and how we're 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:58.920 going to support New Zealanders to have a higher standard 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.240 of living will go up and down. You know, if 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.880 you think about fruit and veggies, for example, the weather 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:04.920 has an impact. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:06.120 You know, we had our. 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.600 Cyclone in the first few weeks that I was Prime 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.080 Minister that wiped out a huge amount of our fresh 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.760 produce across the East Coast to the North Island, and 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.480 that meant that that actually was one of the things 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.560 that forced up fruit and vegie prices. The government couldn't 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.000 fundamentally change that, but we do have to make sure 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.600 we're supporting families through you know, what is a really 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.120 tough economic cycle at the moment, So looking at their incomes, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.360 looking at how we can you know, contain other costs. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.440 Public transport, which the government have cut subsidies for, is 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.560 going up hugely. Families on low incomes are more likely 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.480 to rely on public transport, and now they're finding that 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.760 their cost of transport, the cost of getting to and 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.120 from work is going up. That's money that they then 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.120 can't spend on food. So for those families that are 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.600 living hand to mouth, everything matters and regardless of what 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:55.679 the price of butter is doing. The real question is 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.080 what's the overall family expendit you're doing. You know, because 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.240 there are areas where we can ease some pressure on 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.560 families and things like public transport. You know, there are 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.280 good examples of things governments can do. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.640 What about the Greens approach, what about free dental, free 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.120 GP visits. 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.080 And what was the first free childcare? Seems like a 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:21.720 good idea. 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:23.120 So if you look at what we were talking about 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:24.560 at the last election, you know, we had a plan 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.640 to start delivering free dental. The reason that we were 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.559 setting that out over a period of time is we 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.960 don't have the dentists to be able to just you know, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.000 turn on a tap and say right, dental's free. That 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.560 would be hard because we wouldn't have enough dentists. So 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.160 over time it's absolutely achievable. You know, I did this 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.360 work as Prime Minister to identify, yes, we can have 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:47.160 free dental here, and the case of GP visits, I 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.520 wouldn't necessarily start there. I do think that making it 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.520 easier to go to the GP is really important. So 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.320 we might not get to free immediately. At the moment, 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.880 it's costing some families one hundred bucks for a GP visit. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.680 I don't think that's okay. I think we've got to 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.640 deal with that. But there's things that we can do. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.880 Even before that, we abolished the five dollars co payment 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:12.439 for prescriptions because if people were not picking up their prescriptions, 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:14.360 they were more likely to end up having to go 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.280 to a GP or go to a hospital emergency room 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.599 than if they went to the pharmacist, got whatever medications 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.079 they need and stayed healthy in the first place. So 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.640 we did more than just that. We also said to pharmacists, 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:30.439 you can give out some medications without prescription for winter ailments. 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.199 And as a result, because people could go to the pharmacy, 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.800 they didn't end up going to the doctor because they 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.280 didn't need to. And I think there's a lot more 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.560 we can do in that area. You know, pharmacies do 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.800 an amazing job around the country. When I became Minister 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.840 of Health briefly, I learned so much more about what 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.200 pharmacists can do. And I think that those opportunities to 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:55.720 provide better preventative health care are just all over the place. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.400 Keep people healthy and the health system will be under 0:10:58.440 --> 0:10:59.280 a lot less pressure. 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:00.880 And what about that free childcare. 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.120 Yeah, and I've always been committed to that. So when 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.400 I was working for Trevor mallard is the Ministry of 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.880 Education back at a long time ago now, I was 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.560 working on implementing twenty hours free early childhood education for 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.320 three and four year olds. As Prime Minister, I extended 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.280 that to two year olds. The current government have canceled 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.280 the extension to two year olds unfortunately, but I do 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:27.480 think progressively increasing more access to free early childhood education. A. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.840 It's got benefits for the kids because we know kids 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.920 who have been in early childhood education quality early childhood 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.600 education do better when they go to school. But it 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.840 also means that for parents it's a huge easing of 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.439 cost and it allows them to get back into work. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.200 And it will benefit women more than men, but there 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.319 are some men who will benefit from that too. So 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.960 women are more likely to be the person who is 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.960 at home looking after the kids, but increasingly now in 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.880 this day and age, there are more dads doing that too, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.480 and free early old education really helps them to be 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.400 able to go out and earn money as well as 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:05.400 looking after the kids. 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.360 Right, So what's stopping us from just doing it tomorrow? 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:08.560 Is it? 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.360 The money, do we need to tax the retch. 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.400 We could have done twenty hours free early childhood education 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.480 for two year olds, and we had done that. Actually 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.840 the government took the money away from that to fund 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.599 their Family Boosts, which has been an absolute flop. You know, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.200 one hundred and fifty three families I think have actually 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.960 got the full amount of the family boost which you know, 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.959 whereas every family with a two year old would have 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:33.760 got the twenty hours free and they wouldn't have had 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:35.360 to fill in a form to get it. It just 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.560 would have happened automatically, so big saving for the family. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.360 So there is money there to extend that out over 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.360 time to more so you could potentially, you know, increase 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.400 the number of hours or increase the age groups who 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.080 are eligible. I think that's something that we should certainly 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.280 aspire to and we can afford that as a country 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.360 if we make the right choices. Bearing in mind that 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.320 if we've got kids in early childhood education and the 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:00.679 result of that is that their parents are then going 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.840 back to work, those parents are going to be earning 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.120 money and paying taxes, which is a good thing for 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.040 government because it means that ultimately governments and you know, yes, 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.000 we're spending more money on ECU, but we're getting more 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.320 money because of the parents earning more money. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:13.839 What do you think about taxing the. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.200 Rech I think it's a I don't like the phrase. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.440 And the reason I don't like the phrase is because 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.960 I think that tax fundamentally should come down to fairness. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.920 Everyone should pay their fair share, Everyone should make a contribution. 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.800 We all benefit from health education, you know, the infrastructure 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.480 that we build, things like roads, we all benefit from that. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.959 We all benefit from having a police force, we all 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:40.160 benefit from having a good justice system. We all benefit 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.679 from having a defense force. So we should all contribute 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.560 to the cost of those things. And the tax system 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.200 should be fair, which means those on higher incomes. And 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.920 I am one of those people should pay more. And 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.280 I'm quite proud to say that I'm happy to pay 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:56.920 more as someone on a higher income. 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.440 I accept that. You know, it's a great tagline. 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.800 You know, it's on a poster. 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.880 If it's on a poster, but it kind of it 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:08.599 creates a culture of resentment about Texas. Texas aren't a punishment, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.720 you know, Texas are the contribution that we all make 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.240 to living in a decent society, and. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.280 Ow poll, we asked do you support or oppost the 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.000 introduction of a capital gains tax on properties other than 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.320 the family home. Forty six percent of voters are in 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.040 support of the idea, while forty one percent oppose it, 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:35.200 and thirteen percent either don't know or preferred not to say. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.240 I've read something published on Aaron said. 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.440 This was in December, though, and it suggested that you 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.400 will be campaigning on a capital gains tax at the 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.720 next election, and that quote details would be announced as 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.520 early as mid next year. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.880 Now it's past mid next year. Now it's July. Now 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.480 any word on that how that may look. 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:55.720 Yeah, well, I've said that we'll announce our policy on 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.640 that before the end of this year, because I think 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.880 it is important. You know that that is big policy area. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.440 People want to know where they stand. Certainly people to 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.720 my left, you know, on the left of politics, get 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.480 really excited about tax debates, and I understand that, but 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.240 we also need to talk about how we get people 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.280 into good, well paid jobs, how we generate more wealth 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.160 for the country, and we need to do that as 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.800 well as ensuring that the benefits of that are fairly 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.080 shared by everybody. And you can't have one side of 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.840 that debate without the other. So tax is one of 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.440 the ways we ensure that everybody gets the affairs share 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.480 and pays the affairs here. But we've also got to 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.680 make sure that we're generating good, well paid jobs, that 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.720 we've got businesses who are doing well so they can 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.480 employ more people. And I don't think you can separate 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.280 those two things. I think those two things do need 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:43.960 to go together. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.400 So you will commit to yes or no by the 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:47.920 end of this. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.560 Yeah, and we're going to have a different tax policy 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.480 to the one we had at the last election. Very 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:53.400 upfront about that. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:54.040 You know. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.440 In New Zealand, I think we've paced far too much 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:01.040 emphasis on buying and selling houses amongst ourselves, pushing up 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.680 the price so that potentially a whole generation of homeowners 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.880 is being shut out of the housing market, and not 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:10.560 enough emphasis on productive investment, on building businesses that employ 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.640 people that allow them to earn more money. And our 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.080 tax system currently encourages people to do that, you know, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.960 to basically go and just speculate in the residential property market, 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:20.920 and that's not going to make us rich as a country. 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.800 So I think our tech system does need to change. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.760 I understand why mums and dads have gone out and said, oh, 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.040 I've got a house. Now I can use the equity 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:30.800 I've got my house to buy our rental property and 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.280 that that can be my retirement savings. I understand why 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.840 people have done that. The tax systems actually encouraged them 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.040 to do that. But that's not sustainable. If every person 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.760 who owns a house now buys another one, the next 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.960 generation of homeowners won't exist. So we have to do 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:46.760 things differently. 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:51.120 Do you think labor will ever escape the COVID curse? 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.160 When you say COVID curse, I mean it's challenging because 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:56.960 it was hard. You know, it was hard for the 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:58.800 whole country, and it's actually really I find as a 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.880 politician it's also quite hard to talk about it now 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.600 because you did we get everything right during that time? No, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.040 I don't think we did get everything right. Were there 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.480 lessons that we learned from that? Yes, of course, you know, 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.520 no one had ever done this before, no government had 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.159 ever encountered what we encountered with COVID. Undoubtedly there are 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.280 things that if we could go back and do them differently, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.520 we would do some things differently. I can say that, 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.120 And then someone asked me a specific question that'll be like, well, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.240 what about decision X, And so you explain the reasoning 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.240 behind that decision and then they say, oh, so you 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:28.439 don't think you made any mistakes. 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:29.000 I said, no, I'm not. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.160 I'm just explaining why we made the decision we made 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.600 at that time because there wasn't a rule book and 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:37.919 it was hard. The management of the border was so 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.679 hard because one of the ways that we avoided lockdowns, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.520 long prolonged lockdowns in New Zealand was by having the 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.400 border restrictions in place that we had. But that meant 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.480 that if you were traveling, if you had to travel 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.000 for business, if you had family who were away overseas 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:54.680 and they wanted to come back and see you, or 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.000 you wanted to go and see them, you couldn't travel 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.760 freely in the way that we're all used to being 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.080 able to travel. And that was really, really hard. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.840 And some people have just gotten over the fact that 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.560 we didn't travel for a couple of years, and some 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:08.879 people are still holding onto it. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:09.359 It seems. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.400 I mean, every time it must come up, you must, 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.119 you must a little person inside you must just sigh. 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:16.240