1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. From entering 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: Parliament in two thousand and eight to leading the country 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, Chris Hipkins is no stranger to 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 2: the spotlight. During COVID's beginnings, he was known as a 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: safe set of hands, tackling education, health and becoming the 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: Minister in charge of the COVID response for a time. 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: Now he's firmly setting his sights on election twenty twenty six, 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: but is he confident he'll still be in Labour's driving 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: seat when it rolls around? 12 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 3: Today? 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: On the Front Page, Hipkins joins us to discuss the 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: cost of living, vibes around Parliament, and. 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: Whether he'll ever be able to shake COVID. 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: First off, Chris, we had David Seymour on a wee 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: while back. We asked him if it'd be open to 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: working with you. He said that would require Chris Hopkins 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: to be working. He then made an odd reference calling 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: you Pooh Midas, which I can only assume is replacing 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 2: gold with pooh. 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,919 Speaker 1: So is everything you touched he in to shit or something? 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 4: Oh? Look, I mean I think this is just what 24 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 4: we're seeing from this government, you know, and the culture 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,199 Speaker 4: starts from the top, It starts in the Prime Minister, 26 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 4: Winston Peter's David Seymour down where they just think that 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 4: attacking people, belittling people, degrading people is what leadership looks like. 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 4: I don't believe that. I'm all for a bit of 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 4: humor in politics, you know a little bit of a 30 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 4: sledge now and then where it's funny. That can add 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 4: to a bit of you know, political engagement. But they're 32 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 4: not very funny, and they're also not very good at it, 33 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 4: so I think they should just stick to actually doing 34 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 4: what people ask them to do. You know, the New 35 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 4: Zealanders wanted them to fix the cost of living crisis. 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 4: They wanted them to, you know, get the economy moving. 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 4: They haven't done either of those things. Maybe they should 38 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 4: focus on them rather than sledging other people. 39 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: Well what about more recently, looks like you've got the 40 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: prime ministers go to little He said. I'm not taking 41 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: any lectures from frickin' Chris Hipkins or the Labor Party. 42 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: But why are you bothering people lately? Chris? Is it 43 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: getting a bit tasty? In Parliament at the minute. 44 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 4: I think it's getting The government's certainly feeling the pressure, 45 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 4: and they should be feeling the pressure because they made 46 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 4: people a whole lot of promises that they haven't delivered on. 47 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 4: But I remember standing next to Christopher Luxan during the 48 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 4: leader's debates where he said that, you know, families with 49 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 4: kids were going to be two hundred and fifty dollars 50 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 4: a fortnight better off if he became Prime minister. And 51 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 4: they haven't identified one single family that's two hundred and 52 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 4: fifty dollars a fortnight better off, and you know, food 53 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 4: prices are still going up. You know, households are still 54 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 4: really feeling the squeeze, and so I think the government 55 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 4: are feeling that pressure. Really, they shouldn't have made promises 56 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 4: that they didn't intend to keep, and so I think 57 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 4: that's why they're lashing out at everybody else. They're just 58 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 4: trying to find people to blame for that. And you know, 59 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 4: on the other side, there's a lot of pressure coming 60 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 4: on us to say, well, what would labor do differently? 61 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 4: Shear your policies, But the point that I've been making 62 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 4: to people is I'm not going to put policies out 63 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 4: there unless I know that I can deliver on them, 64 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 4: because I don't want to end up two years down 65 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 4: the track and find myself in the same position that 66 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 4: they're currently in, where I've promised stuff that I can't deliver. 67 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 4: I think we've had way too much of that in 68 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 4: New Zealand politics, governments of all stripes making big, sweeping 69 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 4: promises for elections and then not delivering on them. So 70 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 4: we're keeping up how to dry on the policy front 71 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 4: deliberately because when we do announce it, I want to 72 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 4: know that we can do it, and we won't be 73 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 4: able to make that judgment till closer to the election, 74 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 4: once we see the shape the economies in and so on. 75 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: So you basically do want to have a look at 76 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: the books, maybe by next budget, and then you'll start 77 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: kind of trickling out stuff. 78 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: Is that how it works in an election? 79 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 4: It is, it's kind of about looking at the government's books, 80 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 4: but it's also about making sure we're doing the work 81 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 4: now and opposition you don't unlike in government. You know, 82 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 4: you don't have the entire public service doing the work 83 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 4: for you. You've got to do the work. So we're 84 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 4: looking at you know, what would things cost, how would 85 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 4: we actually deliver them. I think one of the valid 86 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 4: criticisms of us last time we were in opposition was 87 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 4: that we had some really good ideas, but we hadn't 88 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 4: worked through the detail of exactly how would we do that. 89 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 4: And then when we got into government, we found that 90 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 4: some of the things that we said we were going 91 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 4: to do very well intentioned, we didn't have a clear 92 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 4: plan for how we would do it. And I think 93 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 4: the same thing has happened to this government. They've made 94 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 4: promises with no plan on how they're actually going to 95 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 4: do it, and I don't want to be in that position. 96 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 4: So we're going to take our time. I know people 97 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 4: are eager to hear what we want to do, but 98 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 4: I'm going to make sure that when I do go 99 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 4: out there and say label will do X, I can 100 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 4: then answer all the questions about it, and I can 101 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 4: tell people how we're going to do it, so that 102 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 4: they know that the promises we're making a credible and 103 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 4: ones that they can rely on us delivering. 104 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 5: On Well, mister Speaker, hasn't it been a shambolic year for. 105 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: The Labor Party? 106 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: Has that? 107 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 6: And I have to say, has there ever been a 108 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 6: leader of. 109 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 5: The opposition with less substance than Chris Hopkins, because what 110 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 5: you get, what you get is a lot of carping. 111 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 5: What you get is a lot of points of order, 112 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 5: and you get a lot of wishy washy, don't you. 113 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 5: It's a lot of wishy washy because beneath it all, 114 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 5: they have no policies, zero policies, and they have no plan. 115 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: What is something that the party's tinkering away in the 116 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 2: background at the moment. 117 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 6: We're looking at a lot of things. 118 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 4: I mean, I think if you look at what is 119 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 4: important to us, I said when I took over from 120 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 4: Jacinda that I wanted to see labor get back to 121 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 4: the core sort of things that are important. 122 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 6: To labor, back to basic, back to basics. Jobs. 123 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 4: You know, it's in the name of the Labor Party. 124 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 4: That's what the Labor Party was founded on the basis of, 125 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 4: you know, good jobs that mean people get well paid 126 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 4: and could have a better life. That's why the Labor 127 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 4: Party exists. So that's that's got to be front and 128 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 4: center for us. And at a time when unemployment's going up, jobs, jobs, jobs, 129 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: is very very important. So jobs health because you know, 130 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 4: if you don't have access to good quality health care. 131 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 4: Then you're going to your options in life are going 132 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 4: to be limited. And homes. Everyone deserves a place to 133 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 4: call home. And if I've got so many the other 134 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 4: issues we deal with, it stems back to one of 135 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 4: those three things, or sometimes a combination of those three 136 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 4: things not not being where we need them to be. So, 137 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 4: you know, kids not going to school. Well, if your 138 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 4: family's moving around houses all the time because they haven't got, 139 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 4: you know, somewhere that they can put down roots, that's 140 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 4: actually a big part of the problem. Kids who are 141 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 4: getting into trouble In many cases, it's because they're living transiently. 142 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 4: So let's make sure everyone has a home. And then 143 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 4: I think more recently, you know, we were expecting that 144 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 4: once inflation was back down within the target band, that 145 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 4: cost of living would sort of drop off the radar 146 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 4: almost It hasn't. Cost of living is getting worse. So 147 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 4: I think we need re election on the cost of living, 148 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 4: and it's going to have to be more than just 149 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: shouting at supermarkets and shouting at banks. It's going to 150 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 4: have to be things that government can actually do that 151 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 4: will tackle the cost of living for people. 152 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: Well, when it comes to that, I was doing some 153 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: research about it, and I mean, how do we make 154 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: sure that the price of butter doesn't get anywhere like 155 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: any more ridiculous? 156 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? 157 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: In the Great Depression, I know that the government introduced 158 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: subsidies for farmers and agriculture that kind of dropped off 159 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: in the seventies and eighties. 160 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: Why can't we do something like that again. 161 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 4: Ultimately, we do live in a global market for that, 162 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 4: and the real challenge for us is if we started 163 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 4: to do that sort of thing here, we potentially limit 164 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 4: our ability to then sell into the international market. It 165 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 4: would compromise our ability to trade internationally if we brought 166 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 4: back subsidies. I think there are real questions about our 167 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 4: New Zealander is paying too much for butter everyone's fixated 168 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 4: on but I've never spoken so much about butter in. 169 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 6: My life as I have in the last week. 170 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: But again, the government sort of shouting at Fontier is 171 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: not going to solve the problem. I think there are 172 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 4: real issues around the supermarket sector, around whether we've got 173 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 4: enough competition in the supermarket sector. But again, just talking 174 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: about it, admiring the problem, it's not going to solve it. 175 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 4: So what's the government actually going to do in that 176 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 4: space to get better competition in supermarkets, and how we're 177 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 4: going to support New Zealanders to have a higher standard 178 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 4: of living will go up and down. You know, if 179 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 4: you think about fruit and veggies, for example, the weather 180 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 4: has an impact. 181 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 6: You know, we had our. 182 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 4: Cyclone in the first few weeks that I was Prime 183 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 4: Minister that wiped out a huge amount of our fresh 184 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 4: produce across the East Coast to the North Island, and 185 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 4: that meant that that actually was one of the things 186 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 4: that forced up fruit and vegie prices. The government couldn't 187 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 4: fundamentally change that, but we do have to make sure 188 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 4: we're supporting families through you know, what is a really 189 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: tough economic cycle at the moment, So looking at their incomes, 190 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 4: looking at how we can you know, contain other costs. 191 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 4: Public transport, which the government have cut subsidies for, is 192 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 4: going up hugely. Families on low incomes are more likely 193 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 4: to rely on public transport, and now they're finding that 194 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 4: their cost of transport, the cost of getting to and 195 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 4: from work is going up. That's money that they then 196 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 4: can't spend on food. So for those families that are 197 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 4: living hand to mouth, everything matters and regardless of what 198 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 4: the price of butter is doing. The real question is 199 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 4: what's the overall family expendit you're doing. You know, because 200 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 4: there are areas where we can ease some pressure on 201 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 4: families and things like public transport. You know, there are 202 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 4: good examples of things governments can do. 203 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: What about the Greens approach, what about free dental, free 204 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: GP visits. 205 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: And what was the first free childcare? Seems like a 206 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: good idea. 207 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 4: So if you look at what we were talking about 208 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 4: at the last election, you know, we had a plan 209 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: to start delivering free dental. The reason that we were 210 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 4: setting that out over a period of time is we 211 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 4: don't have the dentists to be able to just you know, 212 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 4: turn on a tap and say right, dental's free. That 213 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 4: would be hard because we wouldn't have enough dentists. So 214 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 4: over time it's absolutely achievable. You know, I did this 215 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 4: work as Prime Minister to identify, yes, we can have 216 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 4: free dental here, and the case of GP visits, I 217 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 4: wouldn't necessarily start there. I do think that making it 218 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 4: easier to go to the GP is really important. So 219 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 4: we might not get to free immediately. At the moment, 220 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 4: it's costing some families one hundred bucks for a GP visit. 221 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 4: I don't think that's okay. I think we've got to 222 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 4: deal with that. But there's things that we can do. 223 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 4: Even before that, we abolished the five dollars co payment 224 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 4: for prescriptions because if people were not picking up their prescriptions, 225 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 4: they were more likely to end up having to go 226 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 4: to a GP or go to a hospital emergency room 227 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 4: than if they went to the pharmacist, got whatever medications 228 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 4: they need and stayed healthy in the first place. So 229 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 4: we did more than just that. We also said to pharmacists, 230 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 4: you can give out some medications without prescription for winter ailments. 231 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 4: And as a result, because people could go to the pharmacy, 232 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 4: they didn't end up going to the doctor because they 233 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 4: didn't need to. And I think there's a lot more 234 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 4: we can do in that area. You know, pharmacies do 235 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 4: an amazing job around the country. When I became Minister 236 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 4: of Health briefly, I learned so much more about what 237 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 4: pharmacists can do. And I think that those opportunities to 238 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 4: provide better preventative health care are just all over the place. 239 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 4: Keep people healthy and the health system will be under 240 00:10:58,440 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 4: a lot less pressure. 241 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: And what about that free childcare. 242 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've always been committed to that. So when 243 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 4: I was working for Trevor mallard is the Ministry of 244 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 4: Education back at a long time ago now, I was 245 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 4: working on implementing twenty hours free early childhood education for 246 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 4: three and four year olds. As Prime Minister, I extended 247 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 4: that to two year olds. The current government have canceled 248 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 4: the extension to two year olds unfortunately, but I do 249 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 4: think progressively increasing more access to free early childhood education. A. 250 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 4: It's got benefits for the kids because we know kids 251 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 4: who have been in early childhood education quality early childhood 252 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 4: education do better when they go to school. But it 253 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 4: also means that for parents it's a huge easing of 254 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 4: cost and it allows them to get back into work. 255 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 4: And it will benefit women more than men, but there 256 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 4: are some men who will benefit from that too. So 257 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 4: women are more likely to be the person who is 258 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: at home looking after the kids, but increasingly now in 259 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: this day and age, there are more dads doing that too, 260 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 4: and free early old education really helps them to be 261 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 4: able to go out and earn money as well as 262 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: looking after the kids. 263 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: Right, So what's stopping us from just doing it tomorrow? 264 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 2: Is it? 265 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: The money, do we need to tax the retch. 266 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: We could have done twenty hours free early childhood education 267 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 4: for two year olds, and we had done that. Actually 268 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 4: the government took the money away from that to fund 269 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,599 Speaker 4: their Family Boosts, which has been an absolute flop. You know, 270 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty three families I think have actually 271 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 4: got the full amount of the family boost which you know, 272 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 4: whereas every family with a two year old would have 273 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 4: got the twenty hours free and they wouldn't have had 274 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 4: to fill in a form to get it. It just 275 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 4: would have happened automatically, so big saving for the family. 276 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 4: So there is money there to extend that out over 277 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 4: time to more so you could potentially, you know, increase 278 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 4: the number of hours or increase the age groups who 279 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 4: are eligible. I think that's something that we should certainly 280 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 4: aspire to and we can afford that as a country 281 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 4: if we make the right choices. Bearing in mind that 282 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 4: if we've got kids in early childhood education and the 283 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 4: result of that is that their parents are then going 284 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 4: back to work, those parents are going to be earning 285 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 4: money and paying taxes, which is a good thing for 286 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 4: government because it means that ultimately governments and you know, yes, 287 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 4: we're spending more money on ECU, but we're getting more 288 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 4: money because of the parents earning more money. 289 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 1: What do you think about taxing the. 290 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 4: Rech I think it's a I don't like the phrase. 291 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 4: And the reason I don't like the phrase is because 292 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 4: I think that tax fundamentally should come down to fairness. 293 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 4: Everyone should pay their fair share, Everyone should make a contribution. 294 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 4: We all benefit from health education, you know, the infrastructure 295 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 4: that we build, things like roads, we all benefit from that. 296 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 4: We all benefit from having a police force, we all 297 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: benefit from having a good justice system. We all benefit 298 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 4: from having a defense force. So we should all contribute 299 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 4: to the cost of those things. And the tax system 300 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 4: should be fair, which means those on higher incomes. And 301 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: I am one of those people should pay more. And 302 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 4: I'm quite proud to say that I'm happy to pay 303 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 4: more as someone on a higher income. 304 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 6: I accept that. You know, it's a great tagline. 305 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's on a poster. 306 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 4: If it's on a poster, but it kind of it 307 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 4: creates a culture of resentment about Texas. Texas aren't a punishment, 308 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 4: you know, Texas are the contribution that we all make 309 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 4: to living in a decent society, and. 310 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: Ow poll, we asked do you support or oppost the 311 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: introduction of a capital gains tax on properties other than 312 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 3: the family home. Forty six percent of voters are in 313 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 3: support of the idea, while forty one percent oppose it, 314 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: and thirteen percent either don't know or preferred not to say. 315 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: I've read something published on Aaron said. 316 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: This was in December, though, and it suggested that you 317 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: will be campaigning on a capital gains tax at the 318 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: next election, and that quote details would be announced as 319 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: early as mid next year. 320 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: Now it's past mid next year. Now it's July. Now 321 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: any word on that how that may look. 322 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I've said that we'll announce our policy on 323 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 4: that before the end of this year, because I think 324 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 4: it is important. You know that that is big policy area. 325 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 4: People want to know where they stand. Certainly people to 326 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 4: my left, you know, on the left of politics, get 327 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 4: really excited about tax debates, and I understand that, but 328 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 4: we also need to talk about how we get people 329 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 4: into good, well paid jobs, how we generate more wealth 330 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 4: for the country, and we need to do that as 331 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 4: well as ensuring that the benefits of that are fairly 332 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 4: shared by everybody. And you can't have one side of 333 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 4: that debate without the other. So tax is one of 334 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 4: the ways we ensure that everybody gets the affairs share 335 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 4: and pays the affairs here. But we've also got to 336 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 4: make sure that we're generating good, well paid jobs, that 337 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 4: we've got businesses who are doing well so they can 338 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 4: employ more people. And I don't think you can separate 339 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 4: those two things. I think those two things do need 340 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 4: to go together. 341 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: So you will commit to yes or no by the 342 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: end of this. 343 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're going to have a different tax policy 344 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 4: to the one we had at the last election. Very 345 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 4: upfront about that. 346 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 3: You know. 347 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 4: In New Zealand, I think we've paced far too much 348 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 4: emphasis on buying and selling houses amongst ourselves, pushing up 349 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 4: the price so that potentially a whole generation of homeowners 350 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 4: is being shut out of the housing market, and not 351 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 4: enough emphasis on productive investment, on building businesses that employ 352 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: people that allow them to earn more money. And our 353 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 4: tax system currently encourages people to do that, you know, 354 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 4: to basically go and just speculate in the residential property market, 355 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 4: and that's not going to make us rich as a country. 356 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 4: So I think our tech system does need to change. 357 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 4: I understand why mums and dads have gone out and said, oh, 358 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 4: I've got a house. Now I can use the equity 359 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 4: I've got my house to buy our rental property and 360 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: that that can be my retirement savings. I understand why 361 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 4: people have done that. The tax systems actually encouraged them 362 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 4: to do that. But that's not sustainable. If every person 363 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 4: who owns a house now buys another one, the next 364 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 4: generation of homeowners won't exist. So we have to do 365 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 4: things differently. 366 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: Do you think labor will ever escape the COVID curse? 367 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 4: When you say COVID curse, I mean it's challenging because 368 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 4: it was hard. You know, it was hard for the 369 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 4: whole country, and it's actually really I find as a 370 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 4: politician it's also quite hard to talk about it now 371 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 4: because you did we get everything right during that time? No, 372 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: I don't think we did get everything right. Were there 373 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 4: lessons that we learned from that? Yes, of course, you know, 374 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 4: no one had ever done this before, no government had 375 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 4: ever encountered what we encountered with COVID. Undoubtedly there are 376 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 4: things that if we could go back and do them differently, 377 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: we would do some things differently. I can say that, 378 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 4: And then someone asked me a specific question that'll be like, well, 379 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 4: what about decision X, And so you explain the reasoning 380 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 4: behind that decision and then they say, oh, so you 381 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 4: don't think you made any mistakes. 382 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 6: I said, no, I'm not. 383 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 4: I'm just explaining why we made the decision we made 384 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 4: at that time because there wasn't a rule book and 385 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 4: it was hard. The management of the border was so 386 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 4: hard because one of the ways that we avoided lockdowns, 387 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 4: long prolonged lockdowns in New Zealand was by having the 388 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 4: border restrictions in place that we had. But that meant 389 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 4: that if you were traveling, if you had to travel 390 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 4: for business, if you had family who were away overseas 391 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 4: and they wanted to come back and see you, or 392 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 4: you wanted to go and see them, you couldn't travel 393 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 4: freely in the way that we're all used to being 394 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 4: able to travel. And that was really, really hard. 395 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: And some people have just gotten over the fact that 396 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: we didn't travel for a couple of years, and some 397 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: people are still holding onto it. 398 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: It seems. 399 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 2: I mean, every time it must come up, you must, 400 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 2: you must a little person inside you must just sigh. 401 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 6: A little bit. 402 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 4: But I do understand because it was hard and there were, 403 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 4: and it really had a bigger effect on people's lives. 404 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 4: But I guess the point that I would make is, yes, 405 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 4: government decisions weren't perfect, but actually it was the virus 406 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 4: and the global pandemic that caused a lot of the pain. 407 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 4: Because the decisions the New Zealand government was making we're 408 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 4: not out of line with what other countries were doing. 409 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 4: We were more successful, I think partly because we're an 410 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 4: island nation and we were able to isolate ourselves better 411 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 4: and avoiding long protracted lockdowns. I mean, I've got friends 412 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 4: and family who are in the UK who spent a 413 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 4: year and a half of rolling lockdowns. We avoided that 414 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 4: here and we were able to live relatively freely during 415 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 4: that time, other than know some periods where we weren't. 416 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 4: And you know, for Auckland, that last lockdown was the 417 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 4: hardest and it was hard, and that was one of 418 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 4: the areas which I don't think we got it completely right. 419 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 4: You know, it went on for too long and we 420 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 4: as we moved, as we dealt with the new variants. 421 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 4: Remember we sort of shifted from from COVID early COVID 422 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 4: to delta omicron and then and then we had you know, 423 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 4: moving from elimination where we're aiming to just get back 424 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 4: to what we've been doing before, to realizing that we 425 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: couldn't and that we were going to have to deal 426 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 4: with COVID in the community. That was very bumpy and 427 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 4: very hard, and we didn't get every decision right in there, 428 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 4: and I'd never say that we did. And so as 429 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 4: a result, I think there are people who look at 430 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 4: that going, you know, if they'd been government, why or 431 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 4: you know, would we have made decisions differently if we 432 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 4: knew then what we know now. 433 00:19:49,080 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 7: Yes, Unquestionably, when it comes to election next year, are 434 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 7: you still confident that you'll be leading the Labor Party? 435 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 4: Absolutely? And you know, look, I've still got a lot 436 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 4: of energy for this job. I only took over about 437 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 4: eight months before the election. I had eight months as 438 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 4: Prime Minister, and you know I said there as soon 439 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 4: as I took over from Jacinda, I want Labor to 440 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 4: get back to focusing on what the Labor Party is 441 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 4: all about, jobs, health, homes, you know, making sure we're 442 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: raising living standards for all New Zealanders, focusing on the 443 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 4: things that unite New Zealanders rather than the things that 444 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 4: divide us apart making sure that we we're dealing with 445 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 4: controversial and tricky areas like the Treaty for example, that 446 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 4: we're slowing down a bit and we're bringing people with us. 447 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 6: We're not. 448 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 4: You know, people don't feel like a whole lot's happening 449 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 4: that they don't know about, and they're mistrustful of that. 450 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: You know, I started that work when I became Prime Minister, 451 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 4: and then you know, I still think that's work that 452 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 4: the Labor Party needs to do. I think we need 453 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 4: to make sure that we're there for the people who 454 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 4: we represent. 455 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: And would you be open to working with the Greens 456 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: and TPM or those conversations just not started yet. 457 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 6: We work closely with them. 458 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 4: When I say closely, we cooperate with them quite a 459 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 4: lot in opposition. And you'll see things like the Treaty 460 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 4: Principles Bill, which we thought was a really divisible but 461 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 4: we work really closely with the Greens and with the 462 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 4: Mardi Party to oppose that and to make sure that 463 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 4: it was defeated. We have a lot of values in 464 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 4: common with both of those parties, you know, if you're 465 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 4: talking about the values of unity, of collective action, of 466 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 4: making sure that we are catering to the squeezed middle, 467 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 4: but also those on the lowest incomes. I think we 468 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 4: share those aspirations. We want to make sure that we're 469 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 4: leaving the planet in at least as good as state 470 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 4: as we found it. I think we share those goals. 471 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 4: I've said that what we will do before the election, 472 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 4: as I did last time, as I say, look, these 473 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 4: are the areas that we've got in common with other parties, 474 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 4: and these are the areas where we think we can 475 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 4: work with them, and these are the things we categorically 476 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 4: would take off the table. We won't do that, and 477 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 4: I think that will make it clear what the future 478 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 4: governing arrangements might look like. But I differ for a 479 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 4: bit from the current govern in the sense that, you know, 480 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 4: I respect the important constituencies the smaller parties represent, and 481 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 4: I also respect that we compete with them for votes too. 482 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 6: I don't think. 483 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 4: Under MMP the smaller parties should call all of the shots. 484 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 4: You know, I still think that the bigger parties have 485 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 4: a mandate to reflect the view of a much larger 486 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 4: section of the electorate, and so I do think under 487 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 4: MMP you need to kind of keep proportionality in mind. Yes, 488 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 4: there should be some concessions and some trade offs to 489 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 4: the other parties in order to form government. But that 490 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 4: doesn't mean that you should be doing things that you 491 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: specifically told the electorate before the election that you weren't going. 492 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: To do, like the Treati's Principle. 493 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 4: The Treaty Principle's Bill is a good example, the Regulatory 494 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 4: Standards Bill. You know, some of these things that no 495 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 4: one knew that they were voting for at the last election, 496 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 4: and now they're being inflicted on them. I don't think 497 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 4: that's the spirit of MMP or democracy. I think, you know, 498 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 4: the majority should still rule in a democracy, and at 499 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 4: the moment that's not happening. We're currently being ruled by 500 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 4: a minority, a small minor, and I don't think that's 501 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: what New Zealand has voted for. 502 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: I can only assume David not Winston. 503 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 6: When I'm talking about the minorities. 504 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: There's the small minority. 505 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 4: Well, both of them to some extent on different issues. 506 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 4: You know, they've both got their hobby horses that they're 507 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 4: sort of inflicting on the rest of the country, and 508 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 4: they're not things that New Zealand has voted for. 509 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: Well, Ending greyhound racing is not that. 510 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 4: Look, I support Winston Peters on ending greyhound racing that 511 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 4: I know the greyhound racers don't particularly like the fact 512 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 4: that were supporn in the government on that, but it's time. 513 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: And you know I said before the election that I 514 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 4: thought it was time and I congratulate him for doing it. 515 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 4: You know, not everything in politics needs to be about 516 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 4: saying I impose that just because it's the other side 517 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 4: that are doing it. I think there's actually too much 518 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 4: of that. And I also think let's make sure that 519 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 4: when we're opposing each other, it's for the right reasons, 520 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 4: not the wrong reasons. So it shouldn't be just it 521 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 4: should be because we disagree, not because we're trying to, 522 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 4: you know, secure political advantage or political points. So thinks 523 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 4: things like infrastructure projects, why does everything take so long 524 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: in New Zealand and why does it cost so much money? Well, 525 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 4: the political cycle is part of the problem. You know. 526 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 4: New government comes in and says we don't like all 527 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 4: that stuff that the last lot we're doing, so we're 528 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: going to stop all of that and we're going to 529 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 4: start again. Everything slows down, everything costs more money, and 530 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 4: in the meantime, seventeen thousand fewer people are working in 531 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 4: construction today than they were at the last election, and 532 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 4: the government's part of the problem. I've said that I 533 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: want to take a lot of the politics out of that. 534 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 4: The Infrastructure Commission have come out with a big list 535 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 4: that says these are the things that New Zealand needs. 536 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: They're not things that political parties have decided, you know, 537 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 4: these are the things the Infrastructure Commission have said. For 538 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 4: the country of the size that we are, with the 539 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 4: geography we are, this is what we need and we 540 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 4: need to do it. I've said to the current government, 541 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 4: if you're doing stuff that's on that list, let's not 542 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 4: fit all with that. Let's just get on and do 543 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 4: it because that's been objectively determined that that's what we 544 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 4: need as a country. And let's stop the stop start 545 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 4: nature of what we're doing because not everything needs to 546 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 4: be political. 547 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: And looking forward, Chris, what does a better New Zealand 548 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: look like to you? 549 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 4: I think it involves higher standards of living for all 550 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 4: New Zealanders, So people having good jobs, recognizing that there's 551 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 4: going to be turnover in jobs as technology changes, but 552 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 4: that if you lose your job because things have changed, 553 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 4: that you can get another one, if you need to 554 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 4: retrain and reskill in order to do that, that you're 555 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 4: supported to do that. That you can have a place 556 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 4: that you can call home, whether it's owning your own 557 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 4: home or having a security in your rental, that you 558 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 4: can access good healthcare, that your kids are getting a 559 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 4: good education, a world class education. That we are actually 560 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 4: preserving the environment that we live in so that it 561 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 4: can sustain future generations of people, and that we're living sustainably. 562 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 4: You know that we're having a high quality of life, 563 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 4: but in a way that's sustainable. To me, that's what 564 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 4: New Zealand should be all about. There's huge opportunities for us. 565 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 4: You know, the move to a more sustainable way of 566 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 4: living doesn't need to be a hardship. Infact, it could 567 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 4: be the source of our great prosperity in the future. 568 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chris. 569 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 6: Thank you. 570 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 571 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 572 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot mz. The Front Page is 573 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 574 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 2: our editor. 575 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 576 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or. 577 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 578 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: another look behind the headlines.