Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been
Speaker 2: a year since terrorist group Maas launched a surprise attack
Speaker 2: on Israel, sparking the deadliest conflict in the Gaza region
Speaker 2: for decades. Since then, at least forty thousand people have died,
Speaker 2: many more injured, one point nine million people displaced, and
Speaker 2: countless buildings and homes destroyed. Eight organizations have consistently warned
Speaker 2: of the humanitarian crisis on the ground and are pleading
Speaker 2: with the world to help. Today, on the Front Page,
Speaker 2: World Vision New Zealand's head of Advocacy and Justice, Rebecca
Speaker 2: Armstrong discusses the extent of the crisis after a year
Speaker 2: of fighting. Rebecca, what's happening in Gaza is nothing short
Speaker 2: of a humanitarian catastrophe. What are you hearing from those
Speaker 2: who are on the ground. It's just absolutely unbearable. We
Speaker 2: know that eight out of ten people are homeless now.
Speaker 2: There's been two thirds of infrastructure destroyed, so people are displaced.
Speaker 2: As you know, there's been so many people killed, but
Speaker 2: there are other emerging issues that are happening now, like
Speaker 2: half of the population being at risk of famine, and
Speaker 2: then you know water borne diseases like cholera, typhoid becoming
Speaker 2: more prevalent as well. So, as you said, absolutely catastrophic
Speaker 2: humanitarian disaster taking place at the moment. And I know
Speaker 2: this isn't a terribly easy question to answer, but what's needed.
Speaker 1: So much is needed.
Speaker 3: Obviously, there's the big things like the ceasefire and the
Speaker 3: things that the New Zealand government have been calling for
Speaker 3: two state solution. There's real need for humanitarian aid and
Speaker 3: excess through some of the crossings that have been closed.
Speaker 3: There's a really desperate need for some of the medically
Speaker 3: wounded to be immediately evacuated through the Rougher Crossing so
Speaker 3: that they can have their help. And then you know,
Speaker 3: on top of that humanitarian aid, we're really calling for
Speaker 3: the New Zealand government to issue humanitarian visas to help
Speaker 3: people who are in Palestine with family members in New
Speaker 3: Zealand to be able to come here.
Speaker 4: Every day, the cries of hungry children fill the wholes
Speaker 4: of Kamala Adwan Hospital in North Gaza. Some children here
Speaker 4: at the malnutrition clinic have never known a four meal
Speaker 4: in their lives. After the Hamas attacks on October seventh
Speaker 4: is real cutof fuel, food and dwater from Gaza. Within
Speaker 4: weeks starvation had spread in the north. Abdil Asas is
Speaker 4: five months old and starving. Dr Ahmed Nasad has been
Speaker 4: taking care of him with what little resources the hospit.
Speaker 5: It's a husband und.
Speaker 2: We've previously heard on the front page about the difficulties
Speaker 2: faced by aid agencies, including them being targeted or caught
Speaker 2: up in shelling.
Speaker 1: Is that a constant threat still? I believe so.
Speaker 3: It's really dangerous for everyone to be there right now.
Speaker 3: World Vision. We are not in Gaza, we're in West Bank,
Speaker 3: but even so we've had some of our staff and
Speaker 3: some of the children and our programs killed and it's
Speaker 3: been really devastating to see how unsafe everywhere is in
Speaker 3: that area right now.
Speaker 1: Has New Zealand done enough in response to this conflict?
Speaker 3: They have issued you know, humanitarian aid as in they've
Speaker 3: given money towards the conflict, and you know, I was
Speaker 3: really pleased to see some of the leadership that was
Speaker 3: shown last week at the Security Council from Winston Peters
Speaker 3: and Helen Clark also gave a really great address around
Speaker 3: you know, the importance of looking at some of the
Speaker 3: structures like the VETO and adhering to himmanitarian and international law.
Speaker 6: The Elders unequivocally condemned the seven October terrorist attacks and
Speaker 6: the holding of hostages by Hummas, which have caused deep
Speaker 6: trauma for the Israeli people. We also unequivocally condemn Israel's
Speaker 6: disproportionate military response, including its bombardment, siege and blockade of Gaza.
Speaker 6: This amounts to collective punishment and is causing great suffering
Speaker 6: and trauma to the Palestinian people.
Speaker 7: Today, the spirit that created the United Nations Charter is
Speaker 7: sagging under the weight of its own potted history, power
Speaker 7: waxes and wayne so yesterday's great powers, today's permanent members
Speaker 7: of a Security Council are challenged by periods of competition
Speaker 7: or worse, abuse of the veto. This has serious implications
Speaker 7: for all members.
Speaker 3: I do think there's more though that could be done,
Speaker 3: and particularly because the situation there is so die with
Speaker 3: it's going to take years to improve right like infrastructure destroyed,
Speaker 3: people displaced. There needs to be more of an immediate
Speaker 3: solution that's applied, and there needs to be more support
Speaker 3: from countries like New Zealand and other countries to get
Speaker 3: some people out of fear so that they can come
Speaker 3: to safety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned the need for that humanitarian visa
Speaker 2: I see immigration New Zealand has responded to calls for
Speaker 2: humanitarian visas and it said and I quote where New
Speaker 2: Zealand has previously created new visa pathways for certain conflicts,
Speaker 2: these have been in response to specific and different circumstances.
Speaker 2: They say Afghanistan was a situation where unique circumstances required
Speaker 2: a targeted approach as Afghan nationals were at risk of harm.
Speaker 2: They say Ukraine was an unusual situation given the fact
Speaker 2: that the UNHCR was unable to refer people from Ukraine
Speaker 2: to New Zealand through the ianz refugee quota. Are decisions
Speaker 2: on changes to immigration policy settings are decided by the government.
Speaker 1: What do you make of this?
Speaker 3: I guess I disagree because I think that this situation
Speaker 3: is an unprecedented situation as well because of the humanitarian component.
Speaker 3: World Vision have been really involved in both the visas
Speaker 3: for Ukraine and Afghanistan. We've done research on We've worked
Speaker 3: with Mahif or Ukraine and we've also done some research
Speaker 3: on the resettlement experiences of Afghans here. This situation is
Speaker 3: unique too because of the degree of that humanitarian catastrophe
Speaker 3: part of it. I mean, there's just so many people
Speaker 3: that are unable to leave right now. They're in desperate situations.
Speaker 3: It's an active conflict zone. There's going to need to
Speaker 3: be years of rebuilding and restoring. And it's a unique
Speaker 3: situation because of the widespread humanitarian components of it, which
Speaker 3: is the numbers of people that have been killed, the
Speaker 3: number of people that are sick, the number of people
Speaker 3: that are injured, the sixteen thousand children who have been
Speaker 3: killed as well. It's a situation that needs some urgent
Speaker 3: attention and needs the government to step into because of
Speaker 3: us unprecedented levels of the suffering that's taking place there.
Speaker 2: And that's what I don't understand as well. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is a unique situation. And the refugee quote of
Speaker 2: what it sets at about fifteen.
Speaker 1: Hundred now, is that right? Yeah, it's quite low.
Speaker 3: And you know, we have had these special intakes of
Speaker 3: Ukrainians and Afghans. I think we could absolutely add to
Speaker 3: respond to a humanitarian crisis like this and add to
Speaker 3: that number. But it's also just about signaling that support
Speaker 3: for humanitarian action. If the government did prepare a way
Speaker 3: for people to come here through humanitarian visa, it would
Speaker 3: provide some hope, a tangible path for Palestinians, signaling that
Speaker 3: once movement is possible, it can leave a conflict zone.
Speaker 3: It would be honoring some of the Palestinian New Zealanders
Speaker 3: have been calling the for this for a really long time.
Speaker 3: And then it would you know, eschew that diplomatic leverage
Speaker 3: because it would set a signal of pressure to the
Speaker 3: international community and the regional actors to allow that safe
Speaker 3: passage through borders that just overall demonstrates at New Zealand's
Speaker 3: commitment to humanitarian action. If we were to do something
Speaker 3: like this.
Speaker 2: Do we have any idea how many Palestinian refugees do
Speaker 2: actually have ties to New Zealand.
Speaker 3: The Palestinian community earlier this year said three to four
Speaker 3: hundred people, and that was, we understand, quite a rudimentary
Speaker 3: kind of counting number where they thought, you know, this
Speaker 3: is how many people that we think would we would
Speaker 3: want to bring to New Zealand. I've seen from some
Speaker 3: of New Zealand's documents that they they're an IA document
Speaker 3: that the New Zealand government estimates it could be larger
Speaker 3: than that, so one thousand to I think three thousand people.
Speaker 3: The point is though, that there's a very very small
Speaker 3: Palestinian population in New Zealand currently and from the the
Speaker 3: palace in community who have asked for this, they do
Speaker 3: estimate its going to be three to four hundred people.
Speaker 3: So it's not large numbers. And yeah, it's not an
Speaker 3: impossible ask. No, it doesn't sound like it.
Speaker 2: And New Zealand's given somewhere in the region of twenty
Speaker 2: two million dollars to the humanitarian response.
Speaker 1: Is this good enough?
Speaker 3: Well, it's definitely less than what other countries have given,
Speaker 3: and so you know, we can see that other countries
Speaker 3: have given significantly more money. But also we can see
Speaker 3: that Canada and Australia have issued these humanitarian visas or
Speaker 3: visas that allow people to come to Australia and Canada.
Speaker 3: And obviously people can't move right now, there are some
Speaker 3: real issues with exit, but it's a signaling of support
Speaker 3: that when things do change and where there is some
Speaker 3: political will, people can come here. So other countries are
Speaker 3: doing more than New Zealanders in the particular region New
Speaker 3: Zealand has recently voted in favor of a motion at
Speaker 3: the United Nations for Israel to withdraw from occupied Palestine
Speaker 3: within a year.
Speaker 1: Is that a positive sign?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, really supportive of the government pushing that or saying that.
Speaker 3: But I think that the point is that even if
Speaker 3: there was this withdrawal in a year, because of the
Speaker 3: decimation of infrastructure and just you know, services like water
Speaker 3: and electricity, it's just going to take such a long
Speaker 3: time to rebuild what has been lost, and so we're
Speaker 3: talking about a really elongated period for humanitarian assistance for
Speaker 3: this particular region.
Speaker 8: We see at another profound moral confusion when self described
Speaker 8: progress march against the democracy of Israel, don't they realize
Speaker 8: they support the Iranian backed goons in cause in Tehran
Speaker 8: and in Gaza, the goons who got down protesters, murder
Speaker 8: women for not covering their hair, and hang gays in
Speaker 8: public squares. Some progressives, the singling out of the one
Speaker 8: and only Jewish States continues to be a moral stain
Speaker 8: on the United Nations. It has made this once respected
Speaker 8: institution contemptible in the eyes of decent people everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess the catch there is that Israel
Speaker 2: or at least Benjamin Etnia, who doesn't really seem to
Speaker 2: care about what the UN or other international.
Speaker 1: Bodies have to say, does it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's such a shame because obviously the UN
Speaker 3: and all of these intentional bodies were set up to
Speaker 3: prevent conflicts like this, but they're only as powerful as
Speaker 3: the as as the states that actually adhere to them.
Speaker 3: So we really thought that what the message that Once
Speaker 3: in Peter's pushed last week around respecting international law, the
Speaker 3: relook or at the VETO and some of the structures
Speaker 3: that aren't working, was really important. But basically, countries like
Speaker 3: New Zealand and other M five countries do need to
Speaker 3: uphold these international decisions and international law if there's going
Speaker 3: to be any chance for peace.
Speaker 2: And I guess in New Zealand where we've got that
Speaker 2: mentality of being quite a small fish in a big pond,
Speaker 2: but we're surrounded by other small fish, right, So if
Speaker 2: all of the small countries gather together, we've actually got.
Speaker 1: More say than the larger powers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's what Once in Peter's was
Speaker 3: kind of referring to. You know, we used our voice
Speaker 3: last week, we spoke out, we said something that personally,
Speaker 3: I've been waiting other countries to show this kind of
Speaker 3: leadership and was really pleased that Wanston Peters said some
Speaker 3: of these things that needed to be said. I don't
Speaker 3: think we should unestimate underestimate the influence that we can
Speaker 3: have with you know, similar countries, but also in five
Speaker 3: countries that we are allied with.
Speaker 5: Israel says it's attacking military targets. But this building behind
Speaker 5: me struck last night is a medical center, a depot
Speaker 5: for civil defense first responders. And we're not in a
Speaker 5: Hesbala run area. We're less than half a mile from
Speaker 5: the Lebanese Parliament and multiple Western embassies in the very
Speaker 5: heart of Beirute. It's not the first time medical personnel
Speaker 5: have been targeted in this conflict, and today the Lebanese
Speaker 5: Red Cross said four of their staff were also wounded.
Speaker 5: Medical facilities and personnel are protected under international law. Intentionally
Speaker 5: attacking them is a war crime.
Speaker 2: Rerecca, How concerned are you by the fact that the
Speaker 2: fighting is now spilled over into Lebanon and potentially Iran
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Is that going to worsen the situation over in Gaza? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we are really devastated by the spread of conflict.
Speaker 3: World Vision is in Lebanon and we are providing urgent
Speaker 3: humanitarian assistance to displace people. Basically, we're very worried about
Speaker 3: the whole region and the conflict that is spreading there.
Speaker 3: It's obviously now moved from a contained area to a
Speaker 3: broader area, and the impact on children is going to
Speaker 3: be really catastrophic. So there really needs to be that
Speaker 3: call for a ceasefire and the call for peace. Those
Speaker 3: calls need to be upheld urgently because we don't want
Speaker 3: this to spread even further, because it's always children who
Speaker 3: suffer the most from these types of crisises. And already
Speaker 3: a wes seeing horrific situations unfolding in Lebanon as well
Speaker 3: as Gars are now too.
Speaker 2: And I would implor people who perhaps think that to
Speaker 2: the news is all doom and gloom, and people who
Speaker 2: ignore it to just self reflect on October seven and
Speaker 2: maybe have a look at what's happening over there, because
Speaker 2: it is, like we've already said, we've used this word
Speaker 2: catastro but that's because it is there's really no words
Speaker 2: to describe the situation over there, and I think it's
Speaker 2: really important to reflect and to look at what's happening
Speaker 2: over there.
Speaker 1: Hey, people usually.
Speaker 2: Like to close their eyes and shut their ears off
Speaker 2: to these kinds of situations overseas because we're just so
Speaker 2: far away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I understand it.
Speaker 3: I mean, I've got two little children myself, and I
Speaker 3: don't know. There's something about saying children in particular affected
Speaker 3: that I don't know. There's only so much heartbreak you
Speaker 3: can take. Sometimes it's really easy to turn off. But
Speaker 3: I think everyone needs to remember this has been a
Speaker 3: whole year. These are families with children, and their children
Speaker 3: have been killed and their family members have been killed.
Speaker 3: And I think you just need to put yourself in
Speaker 3: the situation. Even as a Palestinian New Zealander. Imagine if
Speaker 3: your family members were overseas and you were so desperate
Speaker 3: so to bring them to safety where you lived, and
Speaker 3: you know you'd be doing everything that you could if
Speaker 3: they were your sisters, your brothers, your aunties, your extended family.
Speaker 3: So I think we need to just be thinking how
Speaker 3: would it feel if it was me? Because we are
Speaker 3: privileged to be living in New Zealand, but people in
Speaker 3: this part of the world they don't deserve, They didn't
Speaker 3: ask for this, and children in particular who are being killed,
Speaker 3: but also you know wounded health issues. We've seen some
Speaker 3: research that shows that the delays and education are going
Speaker 3: to set this particular cohort of children back five years.
Speaker 3: They're going to be a traumatized people. We need to
Speaker 3: be stepping in and doing everything that we can to
Speaker 3: help alleviate the suffering that children and people are feeling
Speaker 3: in this region.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Rebecca. That said for this episode
Speaker 2: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at nzed Herald dot co
Speaker 2: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells
Speaker 2: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to
Speaker 2: The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for
Speaker 1: Another look behind the headlines.