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Speaker 1: Kiyota.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been

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Speaker 2: a year since terrorist group Maas launched a surprise attack

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Speaker 2: on Israel, sparking the deadliest conflict in the Gaza region

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Speaker 2: for decades. Since then, at least forty thousand people have died,

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Speaker 2: many more injured, one point nine million people displaced, and

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Speaker 2: countless buildings and homes destroyed. Eight organizations have consistently warned

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Speaker 2: of the humanitarian crisis on the ground and are pleading

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Speaker 2: with the world to help. Today, on the Front Page,

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Speaker 2: World Vision New Zealand's head of Advocacy and Justice, Rebecca

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Speaker 2: Armstrong discusses the extent of the crisis after a year

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Speaker 2: of fighting. Rebecca, what's happening in Gaza is nothing short

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Speaker 2: of a humanitarian catastrophe. What are you hearing from those

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Speaker 2: who are on the ground. It's just absolutely unbearable. We

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Speaker 2: know that eight out of ten people are homeless now.

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Speaker 2: There's been two thirds of infrastructure destroyed, so people are displaced.

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Speaker 2: As you know, there's been so many people killed, but

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Speaker 2: there are other emerging issues that are happening now, like

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Speaker 2: half of the population being at risk of famine, and

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Speaker 2: then you know water borne diseases like cholera, typhoid becoming

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Speaker 2: more prevalent as well. So, as you said, absolutely catastrophic

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Speaker 2: humanitarian disaster taking place at the moment. And I know

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Speaker 2: this isn't a terribly easy question to answer, but what's needed.

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Speaker 1: So much is needed.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, there's the big things like the ceasefire and the

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Speaker 3: things that the New Zealand government have been calling for

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Speaker 3: two state solution. There's real need for humanitarian aid and

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Speaker 3: excess through some of the crossings that have been closed.

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Speaker 3: There's a really desperate need for some of the medically

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Speaker 3: wounded to be immediately evacuated through the Rougher Crossing so

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Speaker 3: that they can have their help. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: on top of that humanitarian aid, we're really calling for

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Speaker 3: the New Zealand government to issue humanitarian visas to help

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Speaker 3: people who are in Palestine with family members in New

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Speaker 3: Zealand to be able to come here.

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Speaker 4: Every day, the cries of hungry children fill the wholes

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Speaker 4: of Kamala Adwan Hospital in North Gaza. Some children here

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Speaker 4: at the malnutrition clinic have never known a four meal

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Speaker 4: in their lives. After the Hamas attacks on October seventh

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Speaker 4: is real cutof fuel, food and dwater from Gaza. Within

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Speaker 4: weeks starvation had spread in the north. Abdil Asas is

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Speaker 4: five months old and starving. Dr Ahmed Nasad has been

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Speaker 4: taking care of him with what little resources the hospit.

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Speaker 5: It's a husband und.

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Speaker 2: We've previously heard on the front page about the difficulties

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Speaker 2: faced by aid agencies, including them being targeted or caught

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Speaker 2: up in shelling.

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Speaker 1: Is that a constant threat still? I believe so.

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Speaker 3: It's really dangerous for everyone to be there right now.

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Speaker 3: World Vision. We are not in Gaza, we're in West Bank,

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Speaker 3: but even so we've had some of our staff and

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Speaker 3: some of the children and our programs killed and it's

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Speaker 3: been really devastating to see how unsafe everywhere is in

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Speaker 3: that area right now.

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Speaker 1: Has New Zealand done enough in response to this conflict?

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Speaker 3: They have issued you know, humanitarian aid as in they've

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Speaker 3: given money towards the conflict, and you know, I was

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Speaker 3: really pleased to see some of the leadership that was

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Speaker 3: shown last week at the Security Council from Winston Peters

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Speaker 3: and Helen Clark also gave a really great address around

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Speaker 3: you know, the importance of looking at some of the

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Speaker 3: structures like the VETO and adhering to himmanitarian and international law.

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Speaker 6: The Elders unequivocally condemned the seven October terrorist attacks and

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Speaker 6: the holding of hostages by Hummas, which have caused deep

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Speaker 6: trauma for the Israeli people. We also unequivocally condemn Israel's

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Speaker 6: disproportionate military response, including its bombardment, siege and blockade of Gaza.

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Speaker 6: This amounts to collective punishment and is causing great suffering

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Speaker 6: and trauma to the Palestinian people.

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Speaker 7: Today, the spirit that created the United Nations Charter is

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Speaker 7: sagging under the weight of its own potted history, power

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Speaker 7: waxes and wayne so yesterday's great powers, today's permanent members

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Speaker 7: of a Security Council are challenged by periods of competition

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Speaker 7: or worse, abuse of the veto. This has serious implications

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Speaker 7: for all members.

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Speaker 3: I do think there's more though that could be done,

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Speaker 3: and particularly because the situation there is so die with

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Speaker 3: it's going to take years to improve right like infrastructure destroyed,

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Speaker 3: people displaced. There needs to be more of an immediate

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Speaker 3: solution that's applied, and there needs to be more support

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Speaker 3: from countries like New Zealand and other countries to get

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Speaker 3: some people out of fear so that they can come

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Speaker 3: to safety.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned the need for that humanitarian visa

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Speaker 2: I see immigration New Zealand has responded to calls for

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Speaker 2: humanitarian visas and it said and I quote where New

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Speaker 2: Zealand has previously created new visa pathways for certain conflicts,

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Speaker 2: these have been in response to specific and different circumstances.

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Speaker 2: They say Afghanistan was a situation where unique circumstances required

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Speaker 2: a targeted approach as Afghan nationals were at risk of harm.

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Speaker 2: They say Ukraine was an unusual situation given the fact

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Speaker 2: that the UNHCR was unable to refer people from Ukraine

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Speaker 2: to New Zealand through the ianz refugee quota. Are decisions

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Speaker 2: on changes to immigration policy settings are decided by the government.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of this?

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Speaker 3: I guess I disagree because I think that this situation

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Speaker 3: is an unprecedented situation as well because of the humanitarian component.

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Speaker 3: World Vision have been really involved in both the visas

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Speaker 3: for Ukraine and Afghanistan. We've done research on We've worked

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Speaker 3: with Mahif or Ukraine and we've also done some research

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Speaker 3: on the resettlement experiences of Afghans here. This situation is

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Speaker 3: unique too because of the degree of that humanitarian catastrophe

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Speaker 3: part of it. I mean, there's just so many people

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Speaker 3: that are unable to leave right now. They're in desperate situations.

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Speaker 3: It's an active conflict zone. There's going to need to

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Speaker 3: be years of rebuilding and restoring. And it's a unique

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Speaker 3: situation because of the widespread humanitarian components of it, which

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Speaker 3: is the numbers of people that have been killed, the

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Speaker 3: number of people that are sick, the number of people

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Speaker 3: that are injured, the sixteen thousand children who have been

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Speaker 3: killed as well. It's a situation that needs some urgent

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Speaker 3: attention and needs the government to step into because of

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Speaker 3: us unprecedented levels of the suffering that's taking place there.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I don't understand as well. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is a unique situation. And the refugee quote of

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Speaker 2: what it sets at about fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Hundred now, is that right? Yeah, it's quite low.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we have had these special intakes of

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Speaker 3: Ukrainians and Afghans. I think we could absolutely add to

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Speaker 3: respond to a humanitarian crisis like this and add to

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Speaker 3: that number. But it's also just about signaling that support

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Speaker 3: for humanitarian action. If the government did prepare a way

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Speaker 3: for people to come here through humanitarian visa, it would

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Speaker 3: provide some hope, a tangible path for Palestinians, signaling that

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Speaker 3: once movement is possible, it can leave a conflict zone.

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Speaker 3: It would be honoring some of the Palestinian New Zealanders

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Speaker 3: have been calling the for this for a really long time.

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Speaker 3: And then it would you know, eschew that diplomatic leverage

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Speaker 3: because it would set a signal of pressure to the

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Speaker 3: international community and the regional actors to allow that safe

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Speaker 3: passage through borders that just overall demonstrates at New Zealand's

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Speaker 3: commitment to humanitarian action. If we were to do something

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 2: Do we have any idea how many Palestinian refugees do

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Speaker 2: actually have ties to New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: The Palestinian community earlier this year said three to four

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Speaker 3: hundred people, and that was, we understand, quite a rudimentary

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Speaker 3: kind of counting number where they thought, you know, this

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Speaker 3: is how many people that we think would we would

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Speaker 3: want to bring to New Zealand. I've seen from some

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Speaker 3: of New Zealand's documents that they they're an IA document

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Speaker 3: that the New Zealand government estimates it could be larger

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Speaker 3: than that, so one thousand to I think three thousand people.

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Speaker 3: The point is though, that there's a very very small

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Speaker 3: Palestinian population in New Zealand currently and from the the

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Speaker 3: palace in community who have asked for this, they do

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Speaker 3: estimate its going to be three to four hundred people.

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Speaker 3: So it's not large numbers. And yeah, it's not an

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Speaker 3: impossible ask. No, it doesn't sound like it.

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Speaker 2: And New Zealand's given somewhere in the region of twenty

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Speaker 2: two million dollars to the humanitarian response.

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Speaker 1: Is this good enough?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's definitely less than what other countries have given,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, we can see that other countries

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Speaker 3: have given significantly more money. But also we can see

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Speaker 3: that Canada and Australia have issued these humanitarian visas or

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Speaker 3: visas that allow people to come to Australia and Canada.

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Speaker 3: And obviously people can't move right now, there are some

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Speaker 3: real issues with exit, but it's a signaling of support

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Speaker 3: that when things do change and where there is some

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Speaker 3: political will, people can come here. So other countries are

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Speaker 3: doing more than New Zealanders in the particular region New

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Speaker 3: Zealand has recently voted in favor of a motion at

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Speaker 3: the United Nations for Israel to withdraw from occupied Palestine

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Speaker 3: within a year.

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Speaker 1: Is that a positive sign?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, really supportive of the government pushing that or saying that.

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Speaker 3: But I think that the point is that even if

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Speaker 3: there was this withdrawal in a year, because of the

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Speaker 3: decimation of infrastructure and just you know, services like water

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Speaker 3: and electricity, it's just going to take such a long

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Speaker 3: time to rebuild what has been lost, and so we're

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Speaker 3: talking about a really elongated period for humanitarian assistance for

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Speaker 3: this particular region.

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Speaker 8: We see at another profound moral confusion when self described

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Speaker 8: progress march against the democracy of Israel, don't they realize

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Speaker 8: they support the Iranian backed goons in cause in Tehran

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Speaker 8: and in Gaza, the goons who got down protesters, murder

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Speaker 8: women for not covering their hair, and hang gays in

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Speaker 8: public squares. Some progressives, the singling out of the one

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Speaker 8: and only Jewish States continues to be a moral stain

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Speaker 8: on the United Nations. It has made this once respected

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Speaker 8: institution contemptible in the eyes of decent people everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess the catch there is that Israel

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Speaker 2: or at least Benjamin Etnia, who doesn't really seem to

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Speaker 2: care about what the UN or other international.

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Speaker 1: Bodies have to say, does it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's such a shame because obviously the UN

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Speaker 3: and all of these intentional bodies were set up to

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Speaker 3: prevent conflicts like this, but they're only as powerful as

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Speaker 3: the as as the states that actually adhere to them.

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Speaker 3: So we really thought that what the message that Once

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Speaker 3: in Peter's pushed last week around respecting international law, the

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Speaker 3: relook or at the VETO and some of the structures

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Speaker 3: that aren't working, was really important. But basically, countries like

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Speaker 3: New Zealand and other M five countries do need to

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Speaker 3: uphold these international decisions and international law if there's going

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Speaker 3: to be any chance for peace.

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Speaker 2: And I guess in New Zealand where we've got that

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Speaker 2: mentality of being quite a small fish in a big pond,

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Speaker 2: but we're surrounded by other small fish, right, So if

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Speaker 2: all of the small countries gather together, we've actually got.

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Speaker 1: More say than the larger powers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's what Once in Peter's was

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Speaker 3: kind of referring to. You know, we used our voice

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Speaker 3: last week, we spoke out, we said something that personally,

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Speaker 3: I've been waiting other countries to show this kind of

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Speaker 3: leadership and was really pleased that Wanston Peters said some

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Speaker 3: of these things that needed to be said. I don't

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Speaker 3: think we should unestimate underestimate the influence that we can

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Speaker 3: have with you know, similar countries, but also in five

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Speaker 3: countries that we are allied with.

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Speaker 5: Israel says it's attacking military targets. But this building behind

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Speaker 5: me struck last night is a medical center, a depot

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Speaker 5: for civil defense first responders. And we're not in a

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Speaker 5: Hesbala run area. We're less than half a mile from

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Speaker 5: the Lebanese Parliament and multiple Western embassies in the very

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Speaker 5: heart of Beirute. It's not the first time medical personnel

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Speaker 5: have been targeted in this conflict, and today the Lebanese

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Speaker 5: Red Cross said four of their staff were also wounded.

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Speaker 5: Medical facilities and personnel are protected under international law. Intentionally

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Speaker 5: attacking them is a war crime.

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Speaker 2: Rerecca, How concerned are you by the fact that the

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Speaker 2: fighting is now spilled over into Lebanon and potentially Iran

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Is that going to worsen the situation over in Gaza? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, we are really devastated by the spread of conflict.

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Speaker 3: World Vision is in Lebanon and we are providing urgent

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Speaker 3: humanitarian assistance to displace people. Basically, we're very worried about

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Speaker 3: the whole region and the conflict that is spreading there.

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Speaker 3: It's obviously now moved from a contained area to a

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Speaker 3: broader area, and the impact on children is going to

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Speaker 3: be really catastrophic. So there really needs to be that

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Speaker 3: call for a ceasefire and the call for peace. Those

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Speaker 3: calls need to be upheld urgently because we don't want

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Speaker 3: this to spread even further, because it's always children who

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Speaker 3: suffer the most from these types of crisises. And already

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Speaker 3: a wes seeing horrific situations unfolding in Lebanon as well

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Speaker 3: as Gars are now too.

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Speaker 2: And I would implor people who perhaps think that to

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Speaker 2: the news is all doom and gloom, and people who

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Speaker 2: ignore it to just self reflect on October seven and

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Speaker 2: maybe have a look at what's happening over there, because

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Speaker 2: it is, like we've already said, we've used this word

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Speaker 2: catastro but that's because it is there's really no words

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Speaker 2: to describe the situation over there, and I think it's

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Speaker 2: really important to reflect and to look at what's happening

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Speaker 2: over there.

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Speaker 1: Hey, people usually.

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Speaker 2: Like to close their eyes and shut their ears off

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Speaker 2: to these kinds of situations overseas because we're just so

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Speaker 2: far away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I understand it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've got two little children myself, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know. There's something about saying children in particular affected

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Speaker 3: that I don't know. There's only so much heartbreak you

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Speaker 3: can take. Sometimes it's really easy to turn off. But

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Speaker 3: I think everyone needs to remember this has been a

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Speaker 3: whole year. These are families with children, and their children

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Speaker 3: have been killed and their family members have been killed.

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Speaker 3: And I think you just need to put yourself in

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Speaker 3: the situation. Even as a Palestinian New Zealander. Imagine if

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Speaker 3: your family members were overseas and you were so desperate

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Speaker 3: so to bring them to safety where you lived, and

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Speaker 3: you know you'd be doing everything that you could if

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Speaker 3: they were your sisters, your brothers, your aunties, your extended family.

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Speaker 3: So I think we need to just be thinking how

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Speaker 3: would it feel if it was me? Because we are

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Speaker 3: privileged to be living in New Zealand, but people in

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Speaker 3: this part of the world they don't deserve, They didn't

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Speaker 3: ask for this, and children in particular who are being killed,

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Speaker 3: but also you know wounded health issues. We've seen some

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Speaker 3: research that shows that the delays and education are going

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Speaker 3: to set this particular cohort of children back five years.

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Speaker 3: They're going to be a traumatized people. We need to

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Speaker 3: be stepping in and doing everything that we can to

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Speaker 3: help alleviate the suffering that children and people are feeling

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Speaker 3: in this region.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Rebecca. That said for this episode

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Speaker 2: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's

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Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at nzed Herald dot co

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Speaker 2: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells

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Speaker 2: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to

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Speaker 2: The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for

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Speaker 1: Another look behind the headlines.