Speaker 1: Kyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1: If you've turned on any.
Speaker 2: American news channel in the last week, you would have
Speaker 2: seen water wall coverage of protests spreading across the country.
Speaker 2: It all started in Los Angeles, where clashes between police
Speaker 2: and protesters were exacerbated by Donald Trump bypassing Governor Gavin
Speaker 2: Newsom and sending National Guard and Marine troops to the city.
Speaker 1: La Mayor Karen Bass has.
Speaker 2: Blamed the protests on Trump's immigration raids, which she said
Speaker 2: provoked residents by causing fear and panic. Meanwhile, Trump has
Speaker 2: compared protesters to a foreign invasion and said troops will
Speaker 2: liberate Los Angeles. With the protests now being picked up
Speaker 2: in other major cities, how wide spread could this get
Speaker 2: and how much of this is a test case for
Speaker 2: what will happen in the rest of Trump's term. Today
Speaker 2: on the Front Page, nine News, US correspondent Jonathan Kurzley
Speaker 2: is with us from Los Angeles to explain what's happening
Speaker 2: on the ground. First off, can you tell me how
Speaker 2: these protests started.
Speaker 3: Yeah, these protests started almost a week ago. It was
Speaker 3: essentially following raids that had been carried out by Immigrations
Speaker 3: and Customs Enforcement officials in Los Angeles. Similar raids had
Speaker 3: been done in Chicago, previously wooded by the Trump administration.
Speaker 3: They say to targets illegal immigrants who have committed violent
Speaker 3: crimes and to deport them. Los Angeles has a huge
Speaker 3: migrant community and a very large Hispanic and Mexican population.
Speaker 3: There have been concerns amongst some people, even though they
Speaker 3: say they are legitimate citizens, that they fear they could
Speaker 3: be deported, or that they're family members who may be
Speaker 3: undocumented may be deported by the Trump administration. There was
Speaker 3: anger on the streets on Friday, and in the days
Speaker 3: that followed that anger erupted and it's spread like wildfire
Speaker 3: across the country.
Speaker 2: Yes, so tell me about this ICE situation, perhaps for
Speaker 2: some Kiwis who don't know what that is.
Speaker 3: ICE is essentially the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency. It is,
Speaker 3: if you like, the agency that goes and looks after
Speaker 3: trying to find illegal immigrants or trying to find issues
Speaker 3: with customs breaches, and then enforcing those measures.
Speaker 4: Now they've been enforced much more.
Speaker 3: Forcefully under the administration of President Trump than perhaps many
Speaker 3: experts say previous administration. Donald Trump has made no bones
Speaker 3: about what it is he wants to do with migration.
Speaker 3: He's claimed America has had an open border, it's had
Speaker 3: migration problems. He's pointed to cases where illegal immigrants have
Speaker 3: killed people, have harmed people, have maimed people, and spoken
Speaker 3: with family members who say that their loved ones would
Speaker 3: not have been in such a position had it not
Speaker 3: been for an attack by an illegal immigrant. Many of
Speaker 3: the migrant community, particularly here in Los Angeles, though, feel
Speaker 3: that that is a slur against them. And I'm talking
Speaker 3: about proper migrants here, documented migrants who are here in
Speaker 3: this country properly, but just so happened to be of
Speaker 3: a Mexican background, or a Colombian background, or any particular
Speaker 3: foreign background that is not American. They feel that this
Speaker 3: is an attack on them and their community and their
Speaker 3: family members. And it's been well known for a long
Speaker 3: period of time that there are large numbers of undocumented
Speaker 3: migrants in the Los Angeles and California area.
Speaker 4: The economy for years has relied on.
Speaker 3: These workers to be part of this industry and to
Speaker 3: be part of the employment sector. And right now that
Speaker 3: they all feel as though they are under attack. So
Speaker 3: the ICE Agency is the one in charge of carrying
Speaker 3: out the wishes of the administration when it comes to
Speaker 3: border measures and immigration issues.
Speaker 4: Essentially, they are.
Speaker 3: In country to carry out roads on people who they
Speaker 3: want to get out of the country.
Speaker 5: Well, the chaos here in downtown Los Angeles continues tonight.
Speaker 5: I got to say, doesn't feel like the ala we
Speaker 5: all know and are familiar with. This feels like some
Speaker 5: sort of Third world conflicts. I mean, we have fires
Speaker 5: burning in the middle of intersections. We have police and
Speaker 5: law enforcement agencies under constant attack by these protest as
Speaker 5: they have had.
Speaker 4: Rocks hurled through the winter.
Speaker 5: They are firing fireworks directly at offices who are backed off.
Speaker 4: Of it, I've got to say.
Speaker 5: And as the knight has worn on, the number of
Speaker 5: protesters certainly has dwindled, But they are the ones left
Speaker 5: are the real anarchists, the ones who are intent on
Speaker 5: causing the most damaged.
Speaker 1: What's it like there on the ground in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: We're recording this on Thursday afternoon, New Zealand time.
Speaker 3: What have you sai as I talk to you, this
Speaker 3: is now Wednesday evening, Los Angeles time.
Speaker 4: It is day six of these protests.
Speaker 3: Today, we've seen the protests dwindle in size. We are
Speaker 3: approaching the time of the curfew that has been set
Speaker 3: for eight pm local time.
Speaker 4: That is a curfew.
Speaker 3: Have read about a couple of square kilometers of downtown
Speaker 3: Los Angeles, in the area that is normally thriving with people.
Speaker 3: It is largely a business district, and most of the
Speaker 3: protesters have been targeting federal buildings or court buildings or
Speaker 3: the headquarters of the Los Angeles Police Department that are
Speaker 3: also down there as well. But it has been much
Speaker 3: quieter today than we've seen in previous days. We as
Speaker 3: I mentioned it started Friday, things picked up over Saturday,
Speaker 3: particularly into Sunday and Monday, and.
Speaker 4: Then Tuesday and Wednesday.
Speaker 3: Here things have really started to die down a little bit.
Speaker 3: Maybe there is a sense that we are getting to
Speaker 3: the end of this cycle of protests.
Speaker 4: But you look at New York, you look at Dallas.
Speaker 3: You look at Atlanta, in Georgia, Boston, Chicago, there have
Speaker 3: been spotfires, protests.
Speaker 4: Flare up right across this country.
Speaker 3: So even though Los Angeles may be calming, it may
Speaker 3: start to get a little bit noisier in other cities.
Speaker 3: So you have to remember here too, Donald Trump has
Speaker 3: effectively mobilized seven hundred Marines. The idea that you would
Speaker 3: use the US Marines an arm of the US military,
Speaker 3: against his own citizens is an extraordinary move. He's also
Speaker 3: moved to mobilize thousands of National Guard to do a
Speaker 3: move where he's effectively overruling and overriding a state governor
Speaker 3: here in the United States, which has been done since
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty five. There is an extraordinary amount of power
Speaker 3: being thrown at this to try and quell what today
Speaker 3: looks like to be just maybe a couple of hundred
Speaker 3: protesters on the streets. You do hope, though, that the
Speaker 3: violence calms down, that people who want to discuss these
Speaker 3: issues can get around a table and discuss them, because
Speaker 3: it's been pretty frightening scenes on the streets of Los
Speaker 3: Angeles over the course of the last week or so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've spoken to people on the ground. I mean,
Speaker 2: what's a story from someone that you've spoken to that
Speaker 2: sticks out to you.
Speaker 3: We've spoken to people who have had their father deported
Speaker 3: that they are protesting for their own father's sake. We've
Speaker 3: spoken to people who are concerned about their neighbors being deported.
Speaker 3: It is a real sense of community spirit among those
Speaker 3: who are down there legitimately trying to plead their case.
Speaker 3: There is certainly a sign that there are trouble makers
Speaker 3: in amongst the mix. And you did when I've been
Speaker 3: out there, you tend to see the same groups of
Speaker 3: people moving around bit by bit.
Speaker 4: But those who are passionate about.
Speaker 3: This issue on a personal level and who it impacts
Speaker 3: really are just trying to drive the point home that
Speaker 3: these fathers, they are sons, they are people who are
Speaker 3: not criminals being targeted, they say, and they are trying
Speaker 3: to get a message across the Amrea people that what
Speaker 3: is taking place is not right, is not fair, and
Speaker 3: is not just. So it is certainly for these people
Speaker 3: it is emotional, it is deeply heartbreaking. But then you
Speaker 3: combine that with those who are seeking to carry out
Speaker 3: these protests because they want to clash with police, it
Speaker 3: damages the movement of the protesters as a whole. Those
Speaker 3: who are merely demonstrating about their own families, plant their
Speaker 3: own communities light and trying to get the message across
Speaker 3: to the Trump administration that things need to calm down.
Speaker 6: You take a look at what happened in San Diego.
Speaker 6: There's so many different places where we let it burn.
Speaker 6: We want to be politically correct, We wanted to be nice.
Speaker 6: We want to be nice to the criminal, and what
Speaker 6: you're doing is destroying the fabric of our life in
Speaker 6: this country. Now, we did the right thing.
Speaker 4: We've been given credit for by.
Speaker 6: People that I would least suspect. I would say that
Speaker 6: some of the people that came in and said thank goodness,
Speaker 6: they said some of them thank god that Trump got involved.
Speaker 6: And I'm very happy I got involved. And I think Gavin,
Speaker 6: in his own way, is probably happy I got involved.
Speaker 2: So Trump's defended his decision to send in the troops,
Speaker 2: saying it was to prevent the city being conquered by
Speaker 2: a foreign enemy. What are people saying about the use
Speaker 2: of the military there.
Speaker 4: Here in Los Angeles across California. It's fury.
Speaker 3: It's a fear that their streets are being militarized, that
Speaker 3: they are having their own army used against them, that
Speaker 3: the National Guard is being brought in when it's not needed.
Speaker 4: The LAPD, the police department in.
Speaker 3: Los Angeles, had said for the first couple of days
Speaker 3: they believed that they could control the situation.
Speaker 4: By about night.
Speaker 3: Three, they started to move their positions, say hey, look,
Speaker 3: maybe the National Guard could be brought in. We've seen
Speaker 3: Republican governors, that is, governors of Donald Trump's party and
Speaker 3: others dates bring in the National Guard. Normally it is
Speaker 3: the responsibility of a state governor to say, okay, now
Speaker 3: it is time for the National Guard. And they are
Speaker 3: essentially troops who come in in the event of emergencies
Speaker 3: or natural disasters and help either clean up, restore peace,
Speaker 3: and make areas a little bit safer.
Speaker 4: So they can be everything from road closures to.
Speaker 3: As I've seen, standing outside federal immigration facilities with armed weapons.
Speaker 3: So look, there is a real sense of anger about
Speaker 3: the action that President Trump has taken. And I think
Speaker 3: the US Marines we've seen mobilized into Los Angeles over
Speaker 3: the course of the last forty eight hours, if they
Speaker 3: were ever to be in a position where you had
Speaker 3: Marines standing shoulder to shoulder jostling with protesters, that would
Speaker 3: be a very difficult image for Americans to comprehend. The
Speaker 3: idea of their own army. That idea is to serve
Speaker 3: and to protect all of a sudden is being used
Speaker 3: on their own citizens. Rather than fighting foreign wars or
Speaker 3: fighting wars to protect American lives. It's an extraordinary position
Speaker 3: that America finds itself in, and many people that you
Speaker 3: speak to, whether they are political analysts or whether they
Speaker 3: are people on the street, to tell you that this
Speaker 3: is all about Donald Trump trying to wield power and
Speaker 3: exert influence and to say to the rest of America
Speaker 3: that if you do not agree with you, do not
Speaker 3: follow my policies in the way I want you to,
Speaker 3: then I have the force and I can use it.
Speaker 3: That's the message he wants to send across America with this.
Speaker 3: At the moment, though, you've got protesters in multiple cities
Speaker 3: who are starting to speak up and speak out.
Speaker 2: A lot of this feels like it's turning into a
Speaker 2: Trump versus Democrats, issue, doesn't it. California is obviously the
Speaker 2: most populous US state, pretty dominated by Democrat governors, mayor's, senators,
Speaker 2: Congress people. Does it feel like he's sending a message
Speaker 2: to the Democrats maybe about how far he is actually
Speaker 2: willing to go.
Speaker 3: It's a message to Democrats, it's a message to Republicans,
Speaker 3: it's a message to Americans, it's a message to the
Speaker 3: world It is about power in so many aspects. Donald
Speaker 3: Trump has long wanted a fight with California. He has
Speaker 3: long wanted to try and turn this state Democrat blue
Speaker 3: into Republican red. Part of this for him is a
Speaker 3: political power play. He is taking up a political fight
Speaker 3: at the upper level with the Californian Democrats, Governor Gavin Newsom.
Speaker 4: He is feuding with Elais Mayor Karen Bass, and.
Speaker 3: He feuded with both during the fires in January of
Speaker 3: this year as well. So this is not new ground
Speaker 3: for him. He has done this before and he will
Speaker 3: continue to do it. He is trying to show that
Speaker 3: he wields the power, that he is America's commander in chief,
Speaker 3: and he's also a.
Speaker 4: Fan of potential. So he's getting it.
Speaker 3: The question is, though, is whether that attention is going
Speaker 3: to be positive for him or negative for him. Right now,
Speaker 3: he will see that he is winning, think that he
Speaker 3: is winning a public fight with Gavin Newsom, with Karen Bass.
Speaker 3: But this is also a fight that is obviously right
Speaker 3: the way down at the street level. Two, this is
Speaker 3: not just about Donald Trump and governors. This is about ideologies,
Speaker 3: This is about policy, This is about people's lives. But
Speaker 3: the American president is known so much for thinking only
Speaker 3: about the American president and how he's perceived.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2: California Governor Gavin Newsom is seen as a potential presidential
Speaker 2: contend of the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: How has he fared through all of this? Do people
Speaker 1: like him?
Speaker 4: There?
Speaker 3: Govern Newsom is very well liked in California. He is
Speaker 3: very popular among the Democratic base. He is well liked
Speaker 3: for standing up to Donald Trump. Whether that message is
Speaker 3: going to be received by people who might want to
Speaker 3: vote for him in a primary in twenty twenty eight
Speaker 3: on the other side of the country, I don't yet know.
Speaker 3: And you have to factor into this too. Yes, Governor
Speaker 3: Newsom may well be making a power play for the
Speaker 3: twenty twenty eight nomination. So part of this fight for
Speaker 3: him is certainly on that to a level, there is
Speaker 3: politics playing out within what is a pretty nasty situation
Speaker 3: on the ground, and nobody ever wants to see politics
Speaker 3: involved in these things. But it is politics that led
Speaker 3: to it. It is politics that is filtering all the
Speaker 3: way through it, and it is ambition and desire for
Speaker 3: power that is also driving it, and that is driving
Speaker 3: the argument on both sides. Be it Donald Trump's argument
Speaker 3: bit Gavin Newsom's argument his message yesterday that he put
Speaker 3: out as I talked to you on Wednesday, Los Angeles Time.
Speaker 3: His message he put out Tuesday, Los Angeles Time was
Speaker 3: quite simply extraordinary. It was essentially accusing the president of
Speaker 3: the United States of America of being somebody who was
Speaker 3: essentially trying to be an authoritarian figure, trying to be
Speaker 3: a dictator, trying to militarize the streets of America's second
Speaker 3: largest city.
Speaker 7: Trump is pulling a military dragnet all across Los Angeles.
Speaker 7: Well beyond his stated intent to just go after violent
Speaker 7: and serious criminals. His agents are arresting dishwashers, gardeners, day laborers,
Speaker 7: and seamstresses. That's just weakness, weakness masquerading as strength. Donald
Speaker 7: Trump's government isn't protecting our communities. They're traumatizing our communities,
Speaker 7: and that seems to be the entire point. California will
Speaker 7: keep fighting. We'll keep fighting on behalf of our people,
Speaker 7: all of our people, including in the courts.
Speaker 3: It's an extraordinary level of commentary from a man who
Speaker 3: is also at the same time trying to weigh up
Speaker 3: his own police future. What happens for him when he
Speaker 3: is no longer governor, does he try and be the
Speaker 3: next person in the White House.
Speaker 2: As an Australian in the US, does this all feel
Speaker 2: a little bit abnormal? Just watching the scenes on TV,
Speaker 2: it feels strange to see all of this happening, these
Speaker 2: kind of demonstrations, the troops coming in. It just seems
Speaker 2: so extreme. I mean, your colleague Lauren to MARSI got
Speaker 2: shot by a rubber bullet while reporting. So does this
Speaker 2: feel extraordinary to you?
Speaker 3: Well, first things first, we're all just glad that Lauren
Speaker 3: is okay. She has spoken out about what she went through,
Speaker 3: and she was doing her job. She does an extraordinary
Speaker 3: job at everything she does. She's an extraordinary colleague and
Speaker 3: a good friend. And she went through what she has
Speaker 3: described as an unfortunate experience and I think.
Speaker 4: That's putting it mildly. She was shot reporting at a protest.
Speaker 3: Actions that Australia's own Prime Minister have described as horrific
Speaker 3: to have to happen to someone, and he has seen
Speaker 3: the footage himself.
Speaker 8: Hours of standing off this situation has now rapidly deteriorated.
Speaker 8: The LAPD moving it on horseback, firing rubber bullets and
Speaker 8: protesters moving them on through the heart of LA. Look,
Speaker 8: I feel embarrassed, quite frankly, I really don't want to
Speaker 8: be the story as part of this. We were just
Speaker 8: on the ground trying to do our job. I was there,
Speaker 8: you know, Jimmy and I were doing our best to
Speaker 8: bring to Australia what is unfolding on the streets of
Speaker 8: LA And I think, you know, as a journalist, we
Speaker 8: want to be there telling the story. I think, you know,
Speaker 8: it's it's a really crappy thing that's happened. But I really,
Speaker 8: I really don't want to be the story here. It is,
Speaker 8: you know, a really chaotic situation that's unfolding in Los Angeles.
Speaker 4: We see on the streets here in America, well, American.
Speaker 3: Protests you see more broadly moving around the country are
Speaker 3: more different than we might be used to in Australia
Speaker 3: or even New Zealand. Here you're dealing with an entirely
Speaker 3: different situation, and it also depends on which.
Speaker 4: State you're in.
Speaker 3: Now, why are police so heavily armed, Why are they
Speaker 3: using so much force? Why they designed to use non
Speaker 3: lethal force? Well, there's a range of reasons for that
Speaker 3: across different cities. But you've also got to remember too,
Speaker 3: I think there's an added aspect to this that in
Speaker 3: some states in America there is open carry a lot
Speaker 3: of firearms. In other states there's concealed carrier a lot
Speaker 3: of firearms. So ultimately it's a difficult job too for
Speaker 3: police in some senses, because they might be able to
Speaker 3: protest not knowing what people are carrying. Somebody could have
Speaker 3: a gun on them and they just don't know. So
Speaker 3: LA has seen huge numbers of big protests over many,
Speaker 3: many years. It has become not a protest hub. But
Speaker 3: you go back to the Black Lives Matter protests of
Speaker 3: twenty twenty in the in the wake of the murder
Speaker 3: of George Floyd, or go to the Rodney King protests
Speaker 3: of the nineteen nineties. I mean, it has a history
Speaker 3: of protest activity and police overreach in some certain aspects too.
Speaker 4: So when you are at these things, you have to
Speaker 4: be on edge.
Speaker 3: We take security with us everywhere we go in these
Speaker 3: things in case when we need to get dragged out
Speaker 3: of the situation. But ordinary protesters don't have security with them.
Speaker 3: They don't have somebody standing at their shoulder watching ready
Speaker 3: to pull them out if something gets a little bit hairy.
Speaker 3: So look, yes, American protest situations, they're far more different
Speaker 3: than we might be used to. But also you have
Speaker 3: to say, more broadly, America as a country as a
Speaker 3: whole can be a fantastic place to live in. There
Speaker 3: are beautiful parts of this country right across it. But
Speaker 3: you know, you can turn up to a protest like
Speaker 3: the ones we've seen in Los Angeles and things can
Speaker 3: go wrong. Things can go wrong anywhere, but right now
Speaker 3: Los Angeles, we hope the situation is starting to.
Speaker 4: Calm down a little bit.
Speaker 3: But these are going to be discussions that continue for
Speaker 3: years long beyond these protests about immigration, around protest conditions,
Speaker 3: around should the military even be allowed to be called
Speaker 3: on and turned on it against American citizens. Those conversations
Speaker 3: will happen, But right now you've just got to try
Speaker 3: and find some way to get peace on the streets.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Jonathan, no worries.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front
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Speaker 2: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.