1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Now ordering a tamodiki here in New Zealand gearing up 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: for another round of the boot camps for youth offenders 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: next year, but might be difficult for us to tell 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: how well they're actually working. They say they'll not publish 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: details of how many participants are reoffending after they complete 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: the program. There have been allegations that at the last 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: three of the young people, the last three of the 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: young people who've already gone to boot camp, committed serious 9 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: crimes since the program began. So how we know the 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: measure of success is the question. Tamotha Paul is the 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: Green Party spokesperson for youth and joins me tonight. Hi, 12 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: Tamatha Chotter Ryan, how's it going? 13 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: Yeah? 14 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: Good, thank you. So do you think they should the 15 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: boot camps are happening, right, but should we know whether 16 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: the kids are reoffending? 17 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: Well, that is one of the measures of success for 18 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: the pilot, So I think it's really important that we 19 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: do know. But at the same time, the pilot's a 20 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: little bit useless because they've already started getting the legislation through, 21 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: so it's not actually going to inform what ends up 22 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: being the boot camps. 23 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: Why do you think that they're boarding at Tamadiki wants 24 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: to not publicize the data because. 25 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: The pilot has been in utter failure and they know it. 26 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: And when in the beginning, their measures of success were 27 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: the rates of reoffending. And now that they've realized that 28 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: chucking half a million dollars at each child and putting 29 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 2: them into the boot camp and expecting them that to 30 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: work and not working is not good enough, And so 31 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: they've shifted the goalpost now and say, oh no, no, we're 32 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: not focusing on that. We've actually made it now that 33 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 2: it's a success depending on how much time they spend 34 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 2: in community before they reoffend. I don't think that's what 35 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: any people that voted for this government expected around the 36 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: boot camps. 37 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: No, so you agree reoffending's bad, offending's. 38 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: Bad, Well, it's basically the fact that if this pilot 39 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: and these boot camps are about helping young people to 40 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: stop offending and turn their lives around, then this completely fails. 41 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: And it's because they ignored the evidence and they ignored 42 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: the history in this country of failed boot camp experiments 43 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: from the seventies to the last national government. 44 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: Because offending is bad and reoffending is bad. Do you 45 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: agree with that? 46 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: Well, if that is the measure of success for the 47 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: boot camp and they have not met. 48 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: That, yeah, But can I just get absolutely you agree 49 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: that young people offending or reoffending is a bad thing. 50 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. I want young people to have the best lives 51 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: that they can and not have to resort to committing crime, 52 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: which means giving them good education, good housing, and good 53 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: access to opportunities in their lives, good jobs, trades, all 54 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: of those things. 55 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So what do you think led to the spike 56 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: because it went up twenty three percent under the last government. 57 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: What led to the spike in serious persistent young offending. 58 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: There are some pretty clear links between the lockdowns and 59 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: youth offending that have been made and I believe Jenny 60 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 2: Anderson as the Minister of Police made this connection and 61 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: at the time as well, because and this relates to 62 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: the boot camps. When you take young people out of 63 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: their communities, take away their access to their schooling, their churches, 64 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: their sports teams, their community groups and all you know, 65 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: other elements of their lives, and when you put them 66 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: into situations where they're stuck in families where they might 67 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: be violence or abuse or whatever going on. Then that 68 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: will lead to offending, So that actually kind of matches 69 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: the rationale that we've been saying in opposition. 70 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: To camps, isn't it good to get them out of 71 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: the home then into a camp so they're around. 72 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: That Countries that do better in terms of reducing youth 73 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: re offending have far less secure beds in their countries 74 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: than we do here. We have a really high rate 75 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: basically of youth justice residences and beds, and it's pretty 76 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: well founded across research and practice that when you take 77 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 2: young people out of their communities and put them in 78 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: to these residences, it's far less effective than keeping them 79 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: in their communities and providing them with the services that 80 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: they need. And honestly, it's quite simple. It's just like 81 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: job opportunities, education opportunities, mental health care, all of that stuff. 82 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: Tamith, I appreciate you coming on the program tonight, Tamoth 83 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: Paul Green, spokesperson for Youth. For more from Heather Duplessy 84 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: Allen Drive, listen live to news talks. It'd be from 85 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.