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Speaker 1: Thomas Coglan, the Herald's political editor, is in for Bari.

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Speaker 1: So but today, hey Thomas, afternoon, Thomas, how's some Luxe

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Speaker 1: and feeling about the spat he's got himself into with

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Speaker 1: members of the Israeli government.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is this is quite the spat sparked yesterday.

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Speaker 2: A reporter of ours, jamuns Or, asked Luxon what he

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Speaker 2: thought about the unfolding situation in Gaza, and said that Benyminnhnyahoo,

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Speaker 2: the Israeli leader, had lost the plot. The Israeli Deputy

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Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs Minister Sharon Haskell responded in a tweet this morning,

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Speaker 2: a missive really about the dangers of her mass and

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Speaker 2: how Christoph Lackson has a luxury not of not not

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Speaker 2: to think about about terror groups given New Zealand's isolation

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Speaker 2: and uh and and uh and and relative peace. Christoph

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Speaker 2: Lackson is not really not backing down, and he stands

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Speaker 2: by what he said. It's his personal view, So I

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Speaker 2: think he's he's feeling pretty solid. I think he's actually

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Speaker 2: enjoying the opportunity to put a line in the sand

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Speaker 2: on the Israel Gaza issue. He's obviously constrained to webit

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Speaker 2: by his coalition partners. So he does seem to be

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Speaker 2: enjoying the opportunity to just put his own personal view

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Speaker 2: out there distinct from that of David Sema and Winston Peter's.

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Speaker 1: Is it remarkable to you? I mean, I find it

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Speaker 1: quite incredible that the thing of all the things that

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Speaker 1: we have done in this country and our leaders have

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Speaker 1: done in order to put pressure on Israel, this is

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Speaker 1: the thing that's actually having the best effect.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is quite remarkable. It is it is a

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Speaker 2: way that Israel seems to be conducting its foreign affairs

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Speaker 2: at the moment. The Australians have had a broad side

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Speaker 2: from Israel. I think the Canadians and the Brits got

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Speaker 2: one recently too, over their decision to recognize the Palestinian state.

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Speaker 2: It's Israel is sort of adapting to that, quite boisterous

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Speaker 2: and a wee bit unhinged, if I may say so,

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Speaker 2: a way of doing foreign affairs, which is the very

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Speaker 2: twentieth first century, very Donald Trump. That's the sort of

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Speaker 2: way they do things now. So perhaps not surprising on

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Speaker 2: their side of things, I think it is a wee

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Speaker 2: bit unusual on our side of things. We tend to

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Speaker 2: keep our heads down a wee bit so so yeah,

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Speaker 2: quite quite unusual, now do you.

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Speaker 1: Think, I mean, can the Commission have been quired really

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Speaker 1: hide behind this non adversarial terms of restference that they

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Speaker 1: are in order to not summons just in detail?

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Speaker 2: I wonder that is very good question, and I wonder

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Speaker 2: whether it would do more harm than good to summons her.

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Speaker 2: Forcing someone to come against their will before a Royal commission.

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Speaker 2: That is, that is quite a big step. But it

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Speaker 2: is certainly within their power. But it would certainly that

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Speaker 2: would that would be quite an ugly Look.

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Speaker 1: Why would it do harm? What is the harm that

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Speaker 1: it would do?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think that they are cooperating with the inquiry.

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Speaker 2: They've cooperated with the first dage of the inquiry, which

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Speaker 2: they obviously set up themselves. But I wonder whether you

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Speaker 2: use you already this this second phase I think is

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Speaker 2: on thin ice because the terms of reference only include

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Speaker 2: that second labor only term. It doesn't include the New

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Speaker 2: Zealand first labor term. You don't want the Royal Commission,

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Speaker 2: I think, to look like a court that was set

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Speaker 2: up to to dam the reputation of the second term

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Speaker 2: of the labor because.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the difficulty we find ourselves, and

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Speaker 1: is that the first part was set up in such

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Speaker 1: a way that it would not ask the difficult questions

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Speaker 1: and deal with the difficult things, and then the second

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Speaker 1: part is therefore forced to deal with the difficult things. Look,

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Speaker 1: I agree both of them have been us screwing the

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Speaker 1: scrum in in each of their directions. But in the

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Speaker 1: middle of it, sits all of us who want answers

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Speaker 1: to this and are not being certain.

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Speaker 2: I know, and this is why, this is why I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if I can make this argument, I actually don't

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Speaker 1: give a hell about whether it's an ugly look or not.

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Speaker 1: Just sender owes it to us. We were forced to

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Speaker 1: do a lot of things we didn't want to do,

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Speaker 1: so the very bloody least she could do is do

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Speaker 1: something she doesn't want to do.

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Speaker 2: I agree. I wish you'd just get on a plane

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Speaker 2: and show up. I mean, I think their excuse that

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's convention that ministers don't show up to

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Speaker 2: these things. I don't think that's correct. Wayne Map showed

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Speaker 2: up to the Operation Burnham inquiry and inquiry that the

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Speaker 2: last Labor government set up. It was cheered by a

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Speaker 2: former Labor Prime minister. He shut up and defended himself

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Speaker 2: in public on camera. They should just do it, but

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, and it is a terrible look. I mean,

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Speaker 2: justin were doing went on the Oprah Winfrey podcast for

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Speaker 2: an hour and promoted a book. And if she can

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Speaker 2: do that and is not afraid of people clipping up

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Speaker 2: those that that Oprah Winfrey interview and using it in

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Speaker 2: a misleading way, then she can certainly front up to this.

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Speaker 2: I think she should just do it. But summonsing someone

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Speaker 2: is a big step, and you've got in You've got

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Speaker 2: to be absolutely sure that it's the right one to make.

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Speaker 1: Is there any is there any hope at all that

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Speaker 1: the situation may change, or is the decision made and

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Speaker 1: they're going to stick with it.

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Speaker 2: I think they're going to stick with it. The only

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Speaker 2: one the most interesting thing that could happen is Chris

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Speaker 2: Upkins and Aishaviral have a lot to lose because if

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Speaker 2: they look like that, they're still an act of politics.

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Speaker 2: Chrisip Can still wants to be Prime minister. If they

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Speaker 2: look like they're running from this, the net looks pretty

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Speaker 2: terrible for them, and I think there's evidence that it

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Speaker 2: is looking terrible for them. I think they were taken

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Speaker 2: by surprise and how negative the the reaction has been

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Speaker 2: to it, so I think, and to be honest, Chris

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Speaker 2: Hopkins loves a scrap. I think he'd actually quite like

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Speaker 2: to sit down and go through it all. But I

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Speaker 2: think I personally might you know, just I don't have

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Speaker 2: any particular insight to this, but my personal thinking is

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Speaker 2: that he and Ei Shavera are probably sticking with Grant

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Speaker 2: Robinson and just doing on this out of respect to them.

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Speaker 2: I think that'd be quite heavy to sit down and

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 1: Yep, I think you might well be right. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Thomas appreciated that it's Thomas Coglan, the Herald's political leaders.

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