1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by Two Degrees Business. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 2: I'm Peter Griffin. 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: Each week I'm bringing you stories and insights behind the 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: innovators shaping our digital future from right here in Artairoa. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: This week we're taking you to the very edge of 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: what's possible in space technology, an area New Zealand has 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: become a real credible contributor to internationally, really on the 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: back of the success of rocket Lab. My guest is 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: Max Arshawski, co founder and CEO of Zeno Astronautics, which 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: is developing super conducting magnets for satellites and spacecraft, a 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: technology that could change how we move, protect, and assemble 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: things in space. Given the fact that by twenty thirty 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: we could have fifty thousand or more active satellites in space, 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: that's a huge opportunity for Zeno, which is doing all 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: of this from its base in Auckland, New Zealand, where 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: recorded this episode of the Business of Tech. Zeno's technology 17 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: is already an orbit on a satellite and they're working 18 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: with partners from Japan to Europe, proving that world leading 19 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: innovation can and does happen right here. In this episode, Max, 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: who is a new Zealand citizen shares his journey from 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: the frozen steps of Siberia to the cutting edge of 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: our space sector. We talk about how Zeno's super conducting 23 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: magnets could save satellites up to twenty five percent of 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: their fuel, extend mission life spans, and even help tackle 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: the growing problem of space debris. 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: We also touch on. 27 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: Something I didn't really know about the potential for these 28 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: magnetic fields created by the super conducting magnets to protect 29 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: spacecraft from radiation, something that's been the holy grail for 30 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: space engineers. So if like me, you're fascinated by space 31 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: and a tech used in space, or you just love 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: a story of bold Kiwi entrepreneurship, you won't want to 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: miss this conversation. Here's my interview with Max Oshovsky of 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: xeno Astronautics. So Max's been looking forward to meeting you 35 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: and having you on the show. Welcome to the Business 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: of Tech. 37 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: How are you doing. I'm doing very well. Thank you, 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me well. 39 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,399 Speaker 1: I think you're putting a brave face on it. You've 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: been a bit ill from just having come back from 41 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: the US. You picked up some bug there, so I 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: really appreciate you going ahead with the interview, given that 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: you've been sort of throwing up this morning, but it 44 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: just shows the dedication to the mission at Zeno Astronautics, 45 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: and we're going to get into that. But first off, 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: I just want to delve into your origin story because 47 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. Obviously you're from Russia. It's an interesting 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: time to be a Russian in business and what goes 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: along with that, which you're welcome to touch on if 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: you want to. But I'm really interested in, you know, 51 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: coming out of Siberia, growing up in Siberia. Maybe start 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: there what that was like. Tide for kiwis to imagine 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: just how how cold and far away across the icy 54 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: tundra Siberia is. 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so different. Peter. I was born actually in 56 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: the last few months of the Soviet Union still existing. Wow, 57 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: and then it collapsed, you know, by the end of 58 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: the year. I was born in nineteen ninety one, and 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: I was born in the poorest region of Russia. It's 60 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: called ata Altai Mountains. Really, yeah, and that happens to 61 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: be the place where the first woman in space landed, 62 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: So it's the lending side of the first woman in space. 63 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: I was born just sixty kilometers away from the landing side. 64 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: There's like a monument there, so it's the only thing 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: of not really in there. 66 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, and so is your family 67 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: for a long for generations lived in Siberia. 68 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: It's a bit hard to tell. I know, the last 69 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: maybe two generations lived there. But Siberia back in the 70 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: day was sort of a place where they would send 71 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: politically inconvenient individuals without the right to leave the legs, yeah, 72 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: the good legs. Yeah. So I think on both sides 73 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: my family is of that nature. So I know that 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 2: my great grandfather was a German, you know, and he 75 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: was executed by the Soviets for having German literature, I think, 76 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: and at his household and then the later admitted that 77 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: there was a mistake. But and I think on my 78 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: father's side it's Polish and Lithuanian. My last name is 79 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: Polish Polish Lithuanian background. Yeah, and my great grandmother is Ukrainian, 80 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: and I do have some Russian, you know background as well, 81 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: but it's just heavily mixed. 82 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: It's just a reminder of how mixed that part of 83 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: the world is, Ukraine, Russia, Poland all of those countries. 84 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: The cultural lineage and heritage that place is fascinating. So 85 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: you grew grew up in Siberia, but at a very 86 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: young age obviously we're interested in engineering and mathematics to 87 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: the extent that what at fifteen, you secured a place 88 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: at the National Nuclear Research University in Moscow. 89 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, Actually it's a like I see him. 90 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: It's the formal definition of it. It's like a school 91 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: that is managed and run by the staff of the university, 92 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: and it's pretty much an early early admission to the university, 93 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: but you get to start studying a bit earlier kind 94 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: of thing. Yeah, but yeah, I got really fascinated with 95 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: physics and mathematics. I was good at it historically, but 96 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: I actually went to a humanities and arts school for 97 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: the first you know, nine years of my life. But 98 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed mathematics and physics, and I went to Olympiads, 99 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: and then I kept going to Olympiads, and then it 100 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: started to you know, to just cons straight on it 101 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: fully and yeah, I learned you know, second and third 102 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: play place at the Mathematics and Physics Olympiad, and that 103 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: allowed me to get the admission to. 104 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: The La C exciting and actually that you know, a 105 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: lot of scientists say having a background in humanities is 106 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: really valuable. It's that mix of the creativity of humanities 107 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: and science is actually so powerful. 108 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: So you went and studied at the Lyceum. Yes, yeah, 109 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: I finished it for two years. 110 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: Finished for two years, and then by eighteen you're in 111 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: New Zealand. 112 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: Yes, what happened? Question you weren't deported or exiled? Still 113 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: a bit of a puzzle. But at the time I 114 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: was thinking that I really wanted to be at a 115 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: place that is a part of the Western world that 116 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: has English as the primary language, but also something that 117 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: you know, as a society that has developed, but also 118 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 2: that has access to great nature. Because I come from Siberia, 119 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: I really missed nature living in Moscow for ten or 120 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: eleven years or so. And yeah, New Zealand looked like 121 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: a great place. And also at the time, like most 122 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: young people, I really wanted to take, you know, to 123 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: buy some time to think about what to apply myself to. 124 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: And I thought New Zealand is quiet enough for that 125 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: for me to be able to erect the answer. 126 00:06:58,560 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: And then you sort of did a bit of a 127 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: pivot there into biomedical science. 128 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: That will be at university, that's right. Yeah, I pivoted 129 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: a few times there. So I actually came to New 130 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: Zealand to study at Oakland Business School. My thinking was that, 131 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: you know, I was on the path to become an 132 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: engineer in Russia, in Moscow and the historically good engineering school. 133 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: So I thought, you know what, I really want to 134 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: be able to understand the world of finance, and you know, 135 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: the Soviet background, it's you know, communist background. You know, 136 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: I thought it was not the strongest place to medicated 137 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: about finance. So I went to New Zealand, went to 138 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: business school, did a foundational year first here in Oakland, 139 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: and then thought, no, way, a second, Actually I need 140 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: to understand engineering first. Because as I was studying, you know, 141 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: I thought that this was quite intuitive, like the you know, 142 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: the papers I was taking, they felt quite in churchive 143 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: stuff like, okay, I'd probably grasped with myself at a 144 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 2: later stage of that I need to but I probably 145 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: need to foundation of engineering first. So I switched. I 146 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: spoke to the to the head of the school, and 147 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: three quarters through the year, I asked to you know, 148 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: take papers to get ato engineering school first decline and 149 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: then he said, you know what, do you seem to 150 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: be really keen. So I'll let you sit the exams. 151 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: So if you can bust exams, I'll give you the 152 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: average for the rest of the test that you've missed 153 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: at the class average. And if you get to engineering godless, 154 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: that's great. You did, Yeah, and I did. You didn't 155 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: stay long. 156 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: You came up with Zeno and a startup in twenty 157 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: seventeen and decided to put your degree on hold to 158 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: pursue that. 159 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: That's right. 160 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you said something interesting, and I think this is 161 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: I found this interesting because I get a lot of 162 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: people saying to me in the business community in New 163 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: Zealand tall poppy syndrome, we don't tolerate failure here. It's 164 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: too small a country. Everyone knows each other. If you 165 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: fail and you burn people's money, you burn people, you 166 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: won't get a second chance. But you know, it's all 167 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: an interview where you said in New Zealand, if you're 168 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: a complete failure, you can try again. You're going to 169 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: have a house, you're going to have food, You're not 170 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: going to starve. And I never thought about it in 171 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: those terms. I thought about it in reputational terms, that's right. 172 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: But coming from Russia, I guess you know, you fail there, 173 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: you destitute potentially. 174 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: Yes, you're facing death, you know, yeah, especially in Siberia. 175 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think you're right. Reputationally that may not 176 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: be maybe irrecoverable to fail on you know, like this 177 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: in New Zealand. 178 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: Didn't be though really shouldn't it. Failure is part of 179 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: taking risks. 180 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: But I thought about it for a long time, and 181 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: I think, you know, we we cind of really afford 182 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 2: too much risky stuff as a nation. We don't have 183 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: too much resource, you know, we have to be very 184 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 2: responsible how we use resource. So maybe that's why we 185 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: don't like moonshots, you know. Yeah, it's like come on, yeah, yeah, yeah, 186 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,599 Speaker 2: So it sort of makes sense. But I'm prepared to 187 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: face that risk, you know, publicly, because I think it's 188 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 2: worth the risk. 189 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, what we're doing, and tell us about your moonshot 190 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: and the conception of that. In twenty seventeen, with the 191 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: the formation of Zeno Astronautics, and I mean by that 192 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: time we had rocket Lab in New Zealand was doing 193 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: quite well. Twenty seventeen it launched its first correct rocket. 194 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of expectation on that, but 195 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: they proved the model. Uh and but really before then, 196 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: up until that point, we didn't have much of a 197 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: space industry here. But you obviously decided, you know, eight 198 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: years ago that this was the place to to launch 199 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: this idea and tell us about that. 200 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, have to say thank you to 201 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: Sir Peter Beeck for the work that he's done for 202 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: the aerospace, uh, you know sector in globally and for 203 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: zoned in particular. I remember I was volunteering at Stardom Observatory, 204 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: you know, so during the younger years, and I saw 205 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: a nosecone of I T one rocket from memory, that 206 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: rocket let launched. It's there, it was observatory. Yeah, and 207 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: you know I was while volunteering, I was sort of 208 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 2: looking trying to understand how to apply myself, you know, 209 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: and looking looking at seeing that no scan of that rocket. 210 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: Understanding that people actually building businesses in space and the 211 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 2: space is becoming, you know, open for business. You know, 212 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: that was very inspiring, and so I I in I 213 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: looked at the space industry and I realized were in 214 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: the very early days, and I sort of admittedly took 215 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: sometimes I think at the extreme, I know, extrapolated the extreme, 216 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: and I think, okay, that's just how my brain works. 217 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: And I thought about the industry the extreme, and I thought, okay, 218 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: we have when I have companies building rockets and satellites, 219 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: and you know, we're doing really good there. What's going 220 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: to happen in the long in the long term, And 221 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: I thought, in the long term, we really need to 222 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: ensure that we do it sustainably because you know, the 223 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: rate of collapse of the you know, Keslicer Skaate, I'm 224 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: sure familiar with the idea of Castlcker scade. It happens 225 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: very very fast if it were to happen. Just explain 226 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: that for our listeners, sorry, Keesslicker Skate. The idea is 227 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: the phenomenon of having so much space debris that we're 228 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: unable to reach orbit anymore. Yes, yes, And it occurs 229 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: due to you know, one or two collisions that you know, 230 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: sort of escalate like dominoes. 231 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. And when we start getting into constellations of satellites, 232 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: which we have now exactly we have eleven thousand satellites 233 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: up there or something, Yeah, and it takes one or 234 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: two of those to collide spread debris everywhere, and that. 235 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 2: Complicates the picture exactly. It may lock us out of 236 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: orbit for like one hundred years, you know. Yeah, So 237 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: first of all, thought about sustainability because I'm deeply passionate 238 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: about space and also, you know, I almost be in 239 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: a position where we're locked out of space. But also 240 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: I want to I really have a desire, and I 241 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: think it's important for us to ensure that the space 242 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: industry as it continues to develop, is independent of the 243 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 2: resource of Earth, you know. So I'll give you an example. 244 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: So currently rely on Earth based fuel that we bring 245 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 2: with us off to space, and we fuel are spacecraft 246 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: and then you know, to make them agile, but then 247 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 2: we run out of fuel and then the spacecraft is 248 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: no longer functional, you know. And it's okay for now, 249 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: you know, we can build great businesses, but I'M it's 250 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 2: a certain thing always, you know, long term at infinitem 251 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: and I'M the version I have is that technologies in 252 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 2: space should be in dependent of Earth resource when it 253 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: comes to reliance on fuel or radiation protection or an 254 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 2: ability to construct anything. You know, we should be able 255 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: to construct things in space and they should be autonomously 256 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: self sustaining. That the artie should be autonomously self sustaining 257 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: in space. And you know, I've also envisioned uh, you know, 258 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: artificial intelligence being hosted in space independent of Earth. And 259 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: perhaps there is a bit of a resonance with Elans thinking, 260 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: but his a solution to this is to move humans 261 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 2: to Mars. Yeah, my solution is, my suggestion is that 262 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 2: in order for us to understand the universe, we we 263 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: certainly need to recouple ourselves from Earth, but not necessarily 264 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: in the form of a human intellect. Perhaps in artificial 265 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: intelligence is sufficient, but in that case it needs to 266 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: be independent of us and independent of the Earth resource. 267 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: And it certainly in terms of the. 268 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: Logistics and practicalities of sending weight matter like humans across 269 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: the universe, it's a lot better to seeing bits and 270 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: bytes exactly. 271 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: My thinking is that, you know, humans, obviously we've evolved 272 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: for this Earth. We're made of the soil of this planet. 273 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's going to be very hard even psychologically, 274 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: you know, to be on another planet, let alone you know, 275 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: restrict to other sort of issues. So yeah, I personally 276 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: wouldn't want to leave Earth move for fun, you know, 277 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: for a trip yea to space. That would be amazing. 278 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: Mark Crockett just did it good on here. Yeah, I 279 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: actual sent him an emails. Mark, there was a lowesome 280 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: so inspiring. Yeah, I'll totally do that. But you know, 281 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: like long term living, I think Earth is great for us. 282 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that idea of I guess the big limiting 283 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: factor with the satellite is you've only got so much 284 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: propellant that you can put on that satellite to position it, 285 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: reposition it, avoid it deorbiting. And I guess some satellites 286 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: have a lifespan of some of them three to five years. Yes, 287 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: only for various reasons. There's radiation this stuff up there 288 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: as well. But that key issue of having enough propellant 289 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: to keep it in orbit and reposition it as required 290 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: as a major limitation at the moment. 291 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: Isn't it. Yes, that is correct. Yes, So we have 292 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: multiple solutions to this problem that we're trying to apply globally. 293 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: We have electric thrusts that are highly highly efficient thrusters. 294 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: We're also working on refueling, you know, capabilities in orbits 295 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: so we can refuel that more more frequently, and fuel 296 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: storage in orbit as well. But from our end, from 297 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: Zeno's end, we're working on technologies that would allow you 298 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: to save some fuel throughout emission that you would have 299 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: normally spent on pointing your satellite the right way. So 300 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: when you go to space, you sell like tumbles. Just 301 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: like if you throw a rock in the space, it's 302 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: sort of tumbles, yeah, and you don't want it to tumble, 303 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: you know. You want the solar panels to point towards 304 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: the Sun. You want the camera to point towards the Earth, 305 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: you know, and you want it to be nice and controlled. 306 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: And for that we do use normally a combination of 307 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: technologies and in some orbits, in higher orbits, we use 308 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: fuel as a part of that, you know, as a 309 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: part of the solution. And that's what the xenotechnology allows 310 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: us to achieve to remove the need for fuel for 311 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: these for this application. Okay, So what I'm trying to do, Peter, 312 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: is we're trying to build a business that the bridges 313 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: where we're at now and the needs that we have 314 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: today in the more in the current industry, with the 315 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: you know, with the long term needs of the industry, 316 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: and uh, I think the solution. You know, something that 317 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: we're known for globally is don't know, is we're known 318 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: for pioneering a very unique technology. It's called superconducting magnets 319 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: for space applications. It sounds very nerdy, but the bottom 320 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: line is, you know, this technology allows us to generate 321 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: very strong linetic fields in space. They are very dense, 322 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: and they're very stable, and they are very efficient from 323 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: the power standpoint and mass and volume standpoint. You know, 324 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: it's really good. Like it's nice and functional, so to speak. 325 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 2: And these magnetic fields can be used to solve a 326 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: whole range of problems. But ultimately, you know, we're working 327 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: on the problem of detaching the dependency we have between 328 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: Earth and space. Yeah, and if we were to resolve 329 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: it a bit further, I think we can split into 330 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: three categories. I think these these magnets can help us 331 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: reduce the need for fuel in space, they can help 332 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 2: us protect us off some radiation of space. And these 333 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: magns can also enable sophisticated operations in space, like in 334 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 2: space assembly autonomous true, you know, easy going sort of 335 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: a large structure assembly in space. Because currently it's not 336 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: feasible and the way it would work for the listener 337 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: because it's actually not very complex from the idea standpoint. 338 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 2: If you think of holding a magnet in your hand 339 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 2: and then holding another magnet close to it, you feel 340 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: the force between them. That's really good. So now imagine 341 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: if one of them is a controllable magnet, so you 342 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: can control the you know, which way, you know, the 343 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 2: orientation of that magnet essentially, and that in the engineering 344 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: field is called anally an electromagnet, you know, so it's 345 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 2: a magnet on demand. You can control the strength and 346 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: which and which way points. And then essentially superconducting technology 347 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 2: allows us to make these magnets exceptionally powerful, like das 348 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: moving into more powerful than before and more efficient. And 349 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: we can then have these magnets on satellites and we 350 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: can control, uh, you know, where they go with respect 351 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: to Earth. Earth is a big magnet. We cannot control Earth, 352 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,479 Speaker 2: but it has a big magnetic field and we can 353 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: interact with it. And then satellite, you know, you can 354 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: sense your positions with respect to Earth. You can also 355 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 2: position the satellite with respect to other satellites if they 356 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: are nearby and they have a magnet as well on board. 357 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: Just like you know, you can sort of build very 358 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: large structures in space autonomously, and you can have structures 359 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: that are dynamic that can rearrange their you know, shape 360 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: in space. You can build structures that they can update 361 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: quite easily. For example, you have a large you know, 362 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: a large structure that is built, you want to update 363 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: a component like a camera on it, or you know, 364 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: you can variously update this, you know, with this approach. Yeah, 365 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: and you can also make things last longer in space 366 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: because you can use these magnetic fields to deflect the 367 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: so called charge particle radiation. Yeah, big problem. That's a 368 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: holy grail. That's a big problem. I'm not cleaning. We've 369 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: solved it, but we are looking, you know. I mean 370 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: there's a lot of analytical work has been done around this, 371 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: and we now have unlocked this capability of having superconduction 372 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: magnez in space. So we're very much interested in, you know, 373 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: taking this further to see if we can actually fully 374 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: crack it. The idea there is very simple. So charge 375 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: particle radiation is they is the phenomenon of being bombarded 376 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 2: by very small, fast moving particles. You can think of 377 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: them as tiny magnets. I mean, they're not magnez, but 378 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: they charged. You know, they're either plus or minus whatever. 379 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: And yeah, so the way and space is full of 380 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: this radiation full of these particles, and some of them 381 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: move faster, and them move hyper fast, you know, and 382 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: they carry a lot more energy. The problem is that 383 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: when they move so fast and collide with either human 384 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 2: tissue or electronics, they create problems like they can actually 385 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 2: damage DNA within the cell, you know, and then you 386 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: end up with cancers whatnot. Or when they collide with electronics, 387 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: they can create perman damaged to electronics, to the spacecraft, 388 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: they can fully disable the spacecraft, or you know, the 389 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: best case, snary, they could create a temporary problems like 390 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: errors in the code in the computation. Yeah. So one 391 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: way to solve it is to of course deploy a 392 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: large magnetic field around the satellite so that these particles 393 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: can be deflected, you know, bounced off the satellite, which 394 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: is how Earth itself protects us. That's how we are 395 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: safe the ionosphere exactly. That's how we are safe on Earth. 396 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: You know, it works pretty good. 397 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: So you got multiple applications of this, and again there's 398 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: a tie in with New Zealand because New Zealand has 399 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: a bit of a legacy with high temp produced superconducting magnets, right, yes, correct, 400 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: And so you know Robinson Research Institute, which you're partnering 401 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: with doing some work with, but the spinouts from that 402 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: multiple applications, most interestingly I think what you're doing, but 403 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: also open Star technology, Yes, amazing nuclear fusion startups and 404 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: Wellington livitating a magnet in the middle of this plasma reactor. 405 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: So the use of this technology is incredible. 406 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think New Zealand has a tremendous opportunity to 407 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 2: become like the global capital for superconducting work in general. 408 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 2: I mean open Star, you know, has made a lot 409 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: of they've they've had a lot of attention from from 410 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: press for their work. Robinson Research Institute, which is you know, 411 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: one of the world's leading institutes based in New Zealand, 412 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 2: have been researching superconductivity and pioneering a lot of stuff 413 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: and and xenostronotics. You know, we've pioneered the space use 414 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: cases of superconducting magnets on how to enable them for 415 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 2: space use in general. 416 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: So we're talking about literally a box that you have developed. 417 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: I think you said it's like the size of a 418 00:21:54,920 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: bag of pineapple lamps. That's KWI analogy. So we're talking 419 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: about the magnets, the high temperature superconnecting magnets are contained 420 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: in this box that is basically bolted onto a satellite. 421 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 2: Yes, correct, So this box currently is the size of 422 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: a loaf of bread analogy. Yeah, but this is sort 423 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 2: of the probably one of the smaller sizes. But yes, 424 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 2: it has super connecting magnets on the inside, and that 425 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 2: it is bolted to a satellite, and that it ensures 426 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 2: the satellite has an ability to point the right way 427 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: without the needful fuel. It's fully powered by the sun 428 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: sol energy, and it has no consumable of any kind. 429 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: It even has no moving parts in one of the 430 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 2: in one instance, you know, for now we have one 431 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: moving part, but there's a design that has no moving 432 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: part at all. So it's beautiful technology, very stable, very scalable, 433 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 2: and I mean this is. 434 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: Not a theoretical thing. You have a satellite in space 435 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: that has your technology on board. 436 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 2: Yes, we have a tech demo mission in space since 437 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: December twenty one. We're currently we haven't announced it, but 438 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 2: we're currently on another spacecraft that is due for launch 439 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: later this year, and we anticipate softly another launch or 440 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: to the year after. Fantastic, So the first one do 441 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 2: you orbit this? This company? So what are they doing 442 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: with that satellite. This is a platform that de orbit 443 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: operates for technology demonstrations. So we had support from the orbit, 444 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: you know, to launch our mission. 445 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: So it's been up there since the scene betweeny twenty three. 446 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: What sort of data are you getting back from it 447 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: to tell you how it's working your piece of equipment. 448 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had a pretty dense period of conops operations, 449 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: a plane of operations, concert operations once in orbit, and 450 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: the objective for this technology was to increase technology readiness 451 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 2: slow all of this you know of this paradigm, so 452 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: to speak. And this paradigm consists of you know a 453 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: number of subsystems you know, power transfer, subsystem, cooling, thermal management, subsystem, 454 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: active thermal management, paster thoral management, mechanical, you know, electrical, 455 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: and there's there's a few things there. So we put 456 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: it all together in one box and we flew to 457 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: space to see what works what doesn't. Thankfully, everything worked, 458 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 2: Some of it worked better than you know, some that 459 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: worked you know, not twe hundred percent, but everything is 460 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: functional and so they give us a lot of peace 461 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: of mind that we're building something that is you know, 462 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: fully on track. And we've since stripped another unit that 463 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 2: is uh, you know, at least uh, you know, ten 464 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: times more powerful, right, and that creates some nay field 465 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: in in you know, in any direction is sort of 466 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: you know, we've taken a huge step forward and we 467 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 2: expect to be at full maturity by the end of 468 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: this year, meaning full technological maturity like products is good 469 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 2: to or no further work is needed. That's great. 470 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: So each time you're iterating it, putting another device on 471 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: a satellite, it's just improving dramatically the performance of it. 472 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: Yes, and the one you know I mentioned that we're 473 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: looking to hopefully, you know, build another iteration for the 474 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 2: next year that would be again twenty stems more powerful. 475 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the same format, and let's click the I 476 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: read the market for satellite propulsion in that is like 477 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: eleven billion dollars a year. 478 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: It's a big market. 479 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, small in terms of the overall space market, but 480 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: everyone is looking as they put more constellations of satellites 481 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: into space, they're looking for a better way to power 482 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: these satellites. 483 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: So it's a booming market. Yeah, one hundred percent of 484 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: the booming market. We well, we can operate in the 485 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: market of satellite altitude control. We choose not to compete 486 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: in that market, or rather not to provide any services there. Instead, 487 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: we're in the market of attitude control, which is satellite pointing, 488 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 2: and where we are a complement to reaction wheels and mucanino. Yeah, 489 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: where a complement direction was there and the markets around 490 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: three to four billion dollars. 491 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And so the satellite that's up there at 492 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: the moment is probably forty or fifty kg. 493 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: Something like that. I think that one is around to fifty. 494 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's a bit bigger. But we're talking here 495 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: about your technology being able to to point a small satellite, 496 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: but you're also talking about potentially space stations at. 497 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 2: Some point direct Actually may we all see it from here? 498 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: Our listeners will not be able to. But there's a 499 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: giant golden ring that is thinking under the ceiling here. 500 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 501 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: It's a fully functional piece of technology. It was built 502 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: to increase It was built with the idea in mind 503 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: of putting it around a space station. It's four point 504 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: eight meters and diameter. It's a superconducting ring like a 505 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: wedding ring. And the guys that around the space station 506 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 2: and then it takes care of its attitude of its pointing. 507 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, and obviously replacing the International Space Station, but 508 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: the NASA wants to put stations in lunar orbit that's 509 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: as well, so that's going to be a booming market 510 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: as well. 511 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 2: So correct lunar lunary is exciting. Let's you know, there's 512 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: a few companies that are commercial that are working in 513 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: a direction, but still early days, you know, Luner, but 514 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: I think we'll get there in the next decade or so. 515 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: So you raised about ten and a half million dollars 516 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, and a little bit more I 517 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: think last year. 518 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, a bit more than ten last year, but we 519 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 2: haven't announced the number. But the bottom line is we're 520 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: sufficiently funded, you know, to do what is needed, and 521 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: we have you know, we're in a good position to 522 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: build the business. And yeah, we're spending a bit of 523 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 2: time working without partners in Japan, in Europe and in 524 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: the States on various use cases of this technology. 525 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're about to hit to Japan, so it's obviously 526 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: a key market fee. You don't hear so much about 527 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: them and the you know, all the retoric around SpaceX 528 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: and rocket Lab and that you don't hear some about 529 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: what the Japanese are doing, but some incredible work going 530 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: on there the Qshue Space Hub. They're involved in lunar missions. 531 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: The Japanese and an A group, the big aerospace company 532 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: and airline. 533 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: You've done a partnership with them, Yes, they were actually 534 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: are partly owned by Ana. Now they've invested and so 535 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 2: have Mitsubishi Electric and yeah. I mean Japan has historically 536 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: been involved in the in the space sector or mostly 537 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: on the government level, but they have a very booming, 538 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 2: you know, startup ac system these days. I think have 539 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 2: at least one hundred and fifty companies there and they're 540 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: investing from memory at least a billion United States dollars 541 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: per year into the public sector and to the private 542 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: sort of private startup companies, right, Yeah, so they're they're 543 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: catching up with the rest of the world, with America 544 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: in particular. 545 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're obviously interested in the same thing, putting 546 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: up constellations and being able to control them more efficiently 547 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: in that what is the sort of the the efficiency 548 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: gain that you sort of foreseeing in terms of the 549 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: duration of emission and being able to keep a satellite 550 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: in space longer through the use of this sort of 551 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: technology not being so fully reliant on propellant and also 552 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: the cost implications of that having more space to play 553 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: with on a satellite potentially and wait to play with 554 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: because you don't have to have as much fuel on board. 555 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one is a bit hard to answer as 556 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: a as a as a you know answer that I'm 557 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 2: sort of you know, everything at once. But so as 558 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: it all thumb, maybe around twenty to twenty five percent 559 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: of fuel can be saved. It's quite material with our 560 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: first product in market, which is called A zero one 561 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: or otherwise known as supertalk supertur. Yeah. I was told 562 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: it's a much sexier name than zet don't want so okay, superterical, 563 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: let's call it seratokra. Shout out to Jim Hafkey, the 564 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: head of Auckland Problem for Space Systems at the University 565 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 2: of Auckland, who is the first thing being to use 566 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: that word. When I explained to him the concept, he 567 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: was like, oh, it's just a super talker, brilliant. So 568 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: so yeah, so that's that's considerable. 569 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: If you if you only have to put substantially less 570 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: fuel on your satellite, that's saving you money. 571 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you could put some amount of fuel, but you 572 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: can do more, more and more with it. Yeah, you 573 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: can be there for longer, more agile, or you can 574 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: be equally as agile but for longer. Yeah. 575 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you've got the zero one super talker, you're 576 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: working on new iterations off that. Where are you at 577 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: in terms of testing around the using that technology against 578 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: radiation in space? 579 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: Good one, very keen to. We've done a bit of 580 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: work on this analytical work and we've also built that, 581 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 2: you know, a a device, the the Larcial de Ice. 582 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier. This is something it's hard to do 583 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: as a startup based in New Zealand, that is, you know, 584 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: trying to also you know, operate as a commercial company. 585 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 2: This is this is something that I would need to 586 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: do in partnership with either a large you know, with 587 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 2: either research institute or a large commercial player. So I 588 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: guess we're you know, hunting for someone who want to 589 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: do it with us. There's a lot of research we're 590 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: going on around the world on this. I think Europeans 591 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 2: are moving on this as well. Yeah, for us, we've 592 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: concentrated so far, we've only just listed our heads. Essentially, 593 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: we've been head down with with making supertalkot you know, 594 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 2: fully ready, we've only just shipped a couple of months ago. 595 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: But obviously doing it from New Zealand, you've gained good 596 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: international treasure, particularly in Japan. We've got good partners there. 597 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: So do you see it as a as a good 598 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: place to do this work from in terms of getting 599 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: access to talent and capital the things the startup needs 600 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: to thrive. 601 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we're lucky because we're more affordable than the 602 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: other five eised nations in terms of engineering. You know, 603 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: that is an appeal to venture capitalists. You know, you 604 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: know their dollar goes further if it is invested into 605 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: a New Zealand aerospace company or general startup for that matter. 606 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: You know that's good. And we have very smart people 607 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 2: in New Zealand, very you know, we have the culture 608 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 2: of using our resource very effectively and being very innovative 609 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: and that's been that's been good for us. 610 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: You talked about your your philosophy around artificial intelligence and 611 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: in space and using that to explore the universe, and 612 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: that I've seen you talking about electromagnetic accelerated tunnels to 613 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: help the skid across the Solar System and may and 614 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: maybe beyond more efficient efficiently talk us through how that 615 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: might work. 616 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's another conceptually is actually a very simple 617 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 2: idea of you know, using magnets to accelerate another another 618 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 2: magnet to a high to a high velocity. But you 619 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: know it's been used on Earth. Yeah, it's been used 620 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: on Earth for various use cases. But essentially the idea 621 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: is simple to reduce the need for fuel for for 622 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: for inspace acceleration. And if you imagine a tunnel that 623 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: has you know, electromagnets built into the walls of it, 624 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: you can then imagine a paleoad traveling through the tunnel 625 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: and being attracted or or you know, or repelled by 626 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 2: these electromagnets if you switch them in series. 627 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: You know, this is what the Chinese are doing with 628 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: the high speed trains, isn't it limitating somewhat similarly? 629 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: Somewhat similar, It's all from the similar sort of area 630 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 2: of work, but yeah, it you know, having having a 631 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: technology like this in in Earth orbit could allow us 632 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: to uh, you know, remove debris from Earth orbit or 633 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 2: to orbit keep to ensure something continues to stay in orbit, 634 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: or to even send something on interplanetary trajectory, you know, 635 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: to Mars or to Moon without needs for the spacecraft 636 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: to carry fuel on the way. 637 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: It's like a perpetual propulsion system, just keep going as 638 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: long as you have a power source, which is solar. 639 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: Solar. Yeah, the system itself would need to be kept 640 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: in space in orbit as well, but if you balance out, 641 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: you know, the if you balance out the way the 642 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 2: way it's sort of the way launches, you know, the 643 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: direction of launches, they could probably make it self sustainable. 644 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: Otherwise we need some fuel in low orbit. 645 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, it's clearly some you know, I think 646 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: JPL and NASA have been thinking about conceptually and prototype 647 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: and experimenting with for decades now. But that is really 648 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: the holy grail more efficient way to go long distances 649 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: in space, particularly as the likes that Elon Musk and 650 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: that want to go to to Mars, and Peter Beck 651 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: wants to go to Venus Venus Life Finders, that's his 652 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: passion project. 653 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 2: And Venus is a lot harder than Mars. Yeah, especially 654 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 2: if you're landing on it. It's a lot harder. Yeah, 655 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: very hot. I think he just wants to get into 656 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 2: the atmosphere, that's right. No, Venus is fascinating, so there's lots. 657 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: Of potential applications there. But bringing it back to the 658 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: immediate future commercial future for zeno astronautics, what's your sort 659 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: of time frame in mind for when you might be 660 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: able to get some of these onto constellations of satellites. 661 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: We need to so you know, we're entering the market 662 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: through a niche unusual use cases you know that really 663 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 2: demands something like this. It's we're more compelling in those areas, 664 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: and I think you know, over the next few years, 665 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 2: as we drive the cost down and we can produce 666 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: this at higher scale, we could perhaps you know, get 667 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 2: into constellations. Yeah. Yeah, well for now we're in this 668 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: in these you know, bespoke missions, right, So if you 669 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 2: have a particular. 670 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: Earth observational satellite that has a specific thing and needs 671 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: a very precise placement in orbit or something like. 672 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 2: That, yes, yes, we're coming. Yeah. If it's an if 673 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: it's in a high orbit, you know, and it requires 674 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: you know, perhaps jitter free you know operations, or it 675 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 2: requires you know, very effective fuel usage, or perhaps you 676 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 2: it needs it needs a capability of you know, an 677 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 2: ability to dock with in the future for whatever reason. 678 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: That's where we can add value to stage. 679 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like we've sort of dodged a bullet 680 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: really on the space debris stuff to date. I mean, 681 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: there have been a couple of big ones that did 682 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: spread a lot of debris, but it hasn't prevented space 683 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: from putting up as styling satellites for instance. But do 684 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: you worry that we are heading towards real trouble if 685 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: we don't come up with the technology to deal with this. 686 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: Space is huge, Space is really huge. But we do 687 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 2: have you know, a lot of satellites there, as you say, 688 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 2: and they're moving very fast. They care a lot of energy, 689 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: I think. I mean, governments have to regulate this, and 690 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: they have to enforce this ultimately, and a private company 691 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 2: will you know, it's not fundamentally incentivized to solve regulators 692 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 2: escentralized to maximized profit, you know. So I'm not surprised 693 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 2: that space x x the way they do. And I mean, yeah, 694 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: I think it's not far from us seeing more strict 695 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: regulations in that respect. 696 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to need it, as you know, the 697 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: projections on how many satellites are going to be in 698 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: orbit by twenty thirty Hue, Yeah, yeah, yes. 699 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: But a good a good opportunity for you as well. 700 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 701 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 2: By the way, the more subtleized number the better for us. 702 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: From one from one, you know, from from one perspective 703 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 2: is because you know, yeah, I mean, when subtleites can 704 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 2: interact each other electromnetically, you know, you can and you 705 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 2: can do more useful stuff. Yeah, yeah, that way. Yeah. 706 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: You started out talking about your journey to New Zealand 707 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: from Siberia, which is quite a fascinating. What does your 708 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: take on it must be heartbreaking for you to see, 709 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, your your homeland involved in this conflict that 710 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: has sort of become so divisive around the world in general. 711 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 2: It's so hard, Peter. For me, it's very very hard. 712 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I, as I said, my great grandmother is 713 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: from Kiev, which is you know, from Ukraine, and I 714 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 2: grew up listening to Ukrainian speech, you know, and really, 715 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 2: you know, the village I was born at, it was 716 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 2: primarily Ukrainians. Here's Ukrainians. So when when people were moved 717 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 2: to Siberia, they were moved forcefully and and mass so 718 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 2: you would have German villages, Ukrainian villages, you know, Polish villages. Yeah. 719 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, so that's really hard to see, and it's 720 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 2: just so crushing. I remember the day when Russia invaded Ukraine. 721 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: I swear I wasn't disbelieve. People kept saying that's going 722 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 2: to happen, like there's you know, military on the border, 723 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 2: and I was like, it cannot happen. It is not possible. 724 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 2: I wasn't absolute denial that it's something that can happen. 725 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: So a lot of model or even though the intelligence 726 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: was saying it, Biden thought he's not going to. 727 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 2: Be is not possible. But it was so violent and 728 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 2: so brutal, and really, you know, nothing justifies a loss 729 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: of life like this. 730 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: And the legacy that Russia has an engineering in space 731 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: as well, just the ramifications offered are so immense, with 732 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: the tariffs and the sanctions, so much great work that 733 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,919 Speaker 1: could be done, collaboration on International Space Station and other things, 734 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: all on ice as well. 735 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm a bit of at a lossful 736 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 2: words really with respect to the situation with whether Russia 737 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 2: just you know, it's personal. That was very painful to realize. 738 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I think we should learn from 739 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: this that you know that above all his peace, I think, 740 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 2: you know, because really, which is really highly prioritized piece 741 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 2: because then you know, we're safe. We can do the 742 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 2: important things that matter for us, which is our families, 743 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: you know, and children. On top of this, we can 744 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: build a great future, like build great aerospace companies and 745 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: you know, concresse space artificial intelligence, you know, but without peace, 746 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 2: not know what it is possible. 747 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the need to maintain peace in space as well. 748 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 2: Correct the next challenge. Yeah, that's the next challenge. But 749 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 2: it's it's crazy because you know, space was you know, 750 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 2: our technologists they're currently in space to sort of came 751 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 2: out of the space race, which is you know, a 752 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 2: military race as it often does how the world works. 753 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, Max, good luck for the next phase, you know, 754 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,479 Speaker 1: astronautics and ZI zero two and all the other. 755 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 2: Super talkers that come after it, maybe when zero three 756 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: one day. Thanks very much, Peter, thanks so much for 757 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 2: coming on a business of tech. It's been my pleasure. 758 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 759 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 1: So that was the interview with Max Shavsky from Zeno. 760 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: He and the team were on their way to Japan 761 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: just after I recorded that they were doing an event 762 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: up there with so Peter Beck. Japan has a lot 763 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: of money to invest in the space sector, so there's 764 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: obviously huge potential up there. That's it for this week's 765 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: episode of the Business of Tech. I really hoped you 766 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: enjoyed that conversation, and thanks so much to Max Oshavski 767 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: for having me into Zeno. It was great to meet him, 768 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,439 Speaker 1: co founder Sebastian with Sure, and my old friend Erica Lloyd, 769 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: who's Zeno's chief revenue officer these days. If you found 770 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: today's episode inspiring, make sure to subscribe, leave us a review, 771 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. We're 772 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. You can 773 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: find all of the episodes of the Business of Tech 774 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: and my weekly tech reading list in the podcast section. 775 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,479 Speaker 1: Just go to Businessdesk dot co dot Nz. You'll find 776 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,399 Speaker 1: podcasts in the menu. Thanks so much for listening. I'm 777 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: Peter Griffin and I'll catch you next time on the 778 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: Business of Tech.