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Speaker 1: You had to really read yesterday's report to believe it.

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Speaker 1: It is the Public Service Commission's report into the use

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Speaker 1: of census in COVID data at Moneea Marai. It's important

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Speaker 1: to point out whether that information was misused at the

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Speaker 1: Mariah's being investigated separately by various people, including the police.

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Speaker 1: The report focused on. This report focused on government departments.

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Speaker 1: As it turns out, well, they were all seemingly pretty hopeless.

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Speaker 1: The Public Service Commissioner is Sir Brian Roche, of course,

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Speaker 1: and he is with's a very good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning light.

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Speaker 1: So you've been around a while. How do you explain

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Speaker 1: all this?

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Speaker 3: I think it's very hard to explain, as I said yesterday,

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Speaker 3: and you will have.

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Speaker 2: Read the report yourself. It's very sobering reading.

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Speaker 3: This is a massive wake up call for slack practices,

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Speaker 3: in lack professionalism in the safeguardian of information. And I

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Speaker 3: think the appropriate actions have been taken and we're looking

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Speaker 3: to modify the way we do this.

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Speaker 1: What's worse the fact that they had the initial problem,

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Speaker 1: or the second problem, which is when they were alluded

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Speaker 1: to the initial problem, they did nothing about it.

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Speaker 3: That continues to be a mystery to me as to

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Speaker 3: why somebody wouldn't have done it, and that's why we've

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Speaker 3: ended up where we are. I mean, I think we

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Speaker 3: need government agencies to be listening modifying their actions at

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Speaker 3: all times, and in this case, they weren't listening to

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Speaker 3: the voice of many who were saying there's.

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Speaker 2: A mischief here.

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Speaker 1: Is that an arrogance.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it is all an arrogance. I think

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Speaker 3: they were under pressure. I mean, the Status Department has

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Speaker 3: done really, really good work, so this was a blip,

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Speaker 3: but it's a significant blip. I don't think they're arrogant

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Speaker 3: at all. But you know, when you are under pressure,

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Speaker 3: you sometimes lose your ability to listen and think rationally.

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Speaker 2: And I give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

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Speaker 1: Is there something unique within the public service that you

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Speaker 1: are discovering having also been in the private sector that

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Speaker 1: and I've done the same thing. I can't explain it.

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Speaker 1: It's just different. Is it different? And is that part

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Speaker 1: of the problem?

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Speaker 2: There's different?

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Speaker 3: I challenge whether it has to be different to the

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Speaker 3: private sects. Certainly they don't work for profit, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I've said quite publicly they are large organizations.

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Speaker 2: I think there is a lot more to be learned.

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Speaker 3: From the public, from the private sector that could be

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Speaker 3: adopted in the public sector. And that's what I'm currently

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Speaker 3: trying to explore what that would mean.

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Speaker 1: Does this debtail into what you said the other day

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Speaker 1: that the public service isn't fit for purpose, and that

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Speaker 1: is that no one owns anything? Is that part of

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Speaker 1: the problem. No one owns anything because they don't know anything,

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Speaker 1: they don't make decisions.

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Speaker 3: It's a broader issue I think where I mean the

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Speaker 3: model that we've used is very good.

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Speaker 2: The people who work and are amazing.

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Speaker 3: I think New Zealanders should be really proud of the

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Speaker 3: public servants and the public service, but it's no longer

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Speaker 3: fit for purpose. We live in a rarely a world

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Speaker 3: that's changing dramatically. We've got the adoption of technology and

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Speaker 3: all of those things, and we need to sort of

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Speaker 3: face into that and get ahead of the curve. And

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Speaker 3: I think as a small country we should have that ambition.

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Speaker 1: Do you reckon we can do that? Are you sort

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Speaker 1: of a less de leevy? In other words, you've got

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Speaker 1: this gargantuan job, and you've found on these gargantuan problems

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Speaker 1: and turning this thing around as a nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, less, it would probably be embarrassed.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm not. I am really confident of our ability

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Speaker 3: to do this. We have a lot of great things happening.

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Speaker 3: If you look at you know what happened with customs

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Speaker 3: the other day, being able to detect that hundred million

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Speaker 3: dollars meant we've got smart people using smart technology. But

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Speaker 3: we need to make that what the whole system does,

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Speaker 3: just not the old pocket. But I remain really confident

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Speaker 3: that we can deliver for the New Zealand taxpayer.

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Speaker 1: Are government departments or on your recommendation, going to get

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Speaker 1: blown up? Are there simply too many departments?

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Speaker 3: I've raised the question that I think, you know, when

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Speaker 3: you're using public money, you have to be able to

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Speaker 3: justify your adding value. And I think some of our

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Speaker 3: agencies are below scale, which means we have duplication of

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Speaker 3: high fixed costs. I just think it's a question that

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Speaker 3: we need to address and have a grown up conversation about.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a plan to reach ructure at all.

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Speaker 1: What I don't understand explain it to people who are

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Speaker 1: listening to this because on one hand, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you're right, there are people in the public service who

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Speaker 1: are really good, really skilled, and we should value them

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Speaker 1: more than we do. And yet you looked at several

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Speaker 1: departments and each and every one of them was hopeless.

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Speaker 1: So how do you balance those two up?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I don't think they were completely hopeless, so

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Speaker 3: a challenge there are less and for them to be learned.

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Speaker 3: As I said, this is a massive wake up call.

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Speaker 2: At one level.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot to be learned from it, and so

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Speaker 3: that we should be thankful. But we can never have

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Speaker 3: this situation occur again where there is a laxed attitude

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Speaker 3: to the privacy and sanctity of citizens information.

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Speaker 1: Right, nice to talk to you, appreciate it and go

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Speaker 1: well with the job, Sir Brian runs, Who's the Public

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Speaker 1: Service Commissioner. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen

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Speaker 1: live to news talks that'd be from six am weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.