1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: government's released its plan to get our defense infrastructure back 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: up to scratch, some of which hasn't been touched in decades. 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: The Defense of State Portfolio sets out how two point 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: five billion dollars will be spent over the next fifteen years. 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: At the same time, the future Naval Base program is 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: pinned at four billion over thirty five years. It's been 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: called a generational investment in defense infrastructure. But given the 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: horror stories we've heard about black mold infestations and asbestos 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: plaguing ENZDF owned buildings, well this will be enough. Today 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: on the Front Page, Associate Minister of Defense and Minister 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: for Building and Construction CHRISP. Hankers with us to dive 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: into an area that's been chronically under invested in for 15 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: far too long. 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 2: So Chris. 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: The Defense State comprises of about four thousand, seven hundred 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: buildings across nine main camps and bases, two large training areas, 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: and a number of regional support facilities. Last year, the 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: total land and building value was pinned about four point 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: seven billion, so over seventy percent of that infrastructure I 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: see now has a less than twenty years of remaining 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: useful life, with fourteen percent already beyond its useful life. 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: Is two point five billion dollars over the next fifteen 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: years is going to be enough? 26 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 3: Well, we think it will, but you know, we need 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 3: to consider how it looks as we go along, and 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: of course the changing needs of the defense force. Some 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 3: of it's thinking about the way that technological changes will 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: dictate what our defensive force looks like. 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 4: It might be more. 32 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 3: Drones or amend aerial vehicles or actually vessels as we're 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 3: all thinking about replacing the Navy fleet as we're doing, 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: and of course that it has implications whether you have 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: warves or other and runaways and other structures. So, as 36 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 3: far as we can tell now, it's the right plan, 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 3: but as part of the general Defense Capability Plan review 38 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: every two years, we know that we'll need to monitor 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: to see how effective that spenders as time goes forward. 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and all those are four thousand, seven hundred roughly. 41 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: How much of that is housing, Yeah, a large. 42 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 4: Proportion is housing. 43 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 3: Defense housing is an important element, of course, It's crucial 44 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,839 Speaker 3: for the well being of the men and women who 45 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: serve in uniform of the Defense Force and our Defense 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: Force civilians, I should add in terms of conditions more generally. 47 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 3: But therefore it goes to morale in retention, so e'ctually 48 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 3: in a funny way, it's operational, even housing and other 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: accommodations such as barracks in the dining facilities. 50 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 4: And so on. 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 3: So I've been really careful, and so has the Defense 52 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 3: Minister due to columns and in fact the whole government, 53 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 3: to make sure we understand the impact of the under 54 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 3: investment over the years and these kinds of areas as 55 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 3: well as the platforms, the helicopter leaderships that the planes, 56 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: because we know that it's all connected, because we're not 57 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 3: going to have got Defense Force unless we continue to 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 3: have great people in it. 59 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read some horror stories actually about some of 60 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: the Defense Force housing. You've got tenants that have talked 61 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: about leaking houses, black mold, asbestos, lack of heating. The 62 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: list goes on, infestations. Is this something that you've heard 63 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: as well? 64 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard it and I've seen it with my 65 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 3: own eyes, and I've walked into some of these places 66 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: literally with a mask on which I thought might have 67 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: been overkilled until I saw and felt and actually smelt 68 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: the effect of black mold. For example, Papacuta, where we 69 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: have some of our finest soldiers headquarters. You know, just 70 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: totally unsuitable conditions for any you know, living creature, frankly, 71 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 3: but including and especially our defense force personnel from whom 72 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: we are so much, and the families of them too. 73 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: If you think about the sacrifices that are made by 74 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: the partner and the kids of assuming sailor soldier Aviada 75 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: as the case may be, especially spending long periods of 76 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: time away from home. They might be living out of 77 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: the city that they have grown up and then building 78 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 3: their life. So the onus is on us, I think, 79 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: very clearly, morally as well as legally, to provide much 80 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: better than some of these awful conditions that yes, I've 81 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: seen and will also heard about from our people. 82 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: Have you any idea how much, I mean, roughly even 83 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: how many defense houses are sitting out there, you know, 84 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: not usable and just empty. 85 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 4: Well, if you have. 86 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: Been put aside in that way, I'm less interested. If 87 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 3: I may say, then in that question, then those that 88 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 3: continue to be used because we need them. But are 89 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: really to some extent subpar. Now, technically they've all got 90 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 3: the healthy homes standard that has been met, but that 91 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: doesn't mean they're very livable, particularly if you think about 92 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: poorly designed or maybe you know, simply not suitable for 93 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: the modern family living needs. And again just going to 94 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 3: the point of it to look after our people from 95 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 3: whom we are so much. So, you know, there are 96 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: different categories and some are frankly inhabitable, and those have 97 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 3: been set aside. But the build the new build program 98 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 3: as well as the maintenance of the existing stocks is 99 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: bearing in mind certainly that they are unsatisfactory situations in 100 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 3: which people are still living today. 101 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: Right, So if I'm a family and my husband or 102 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: wife is a part of the Defense force, and I'm 103 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: living in one of these substandard houses, how long will 104 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: I have to wait until everything's up to scratch, do 105 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: you think? Or whether I'm in a dry house or something. 106 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean as a rolling more approach, so I couldn't, 107 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 3: I couldn't be had to average out. But at different 108 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: bases and camps across the country, we've already been doing 109 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: the work, and to be fear, it's been acknowledged for 110 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 3: a few years now and including under the last couple 111 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 3: of successive governments. But the reality is it's been decades 112 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 3: in the making this problem. In theref it will be 113 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: decades in the making of the solution. But I know 114 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: that we've got to start somewhere and instantly. Some of 115 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: that renewal and replacement has been the way, and I'm 116 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 3: really excited that the announcement that we've made just now 117 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: will get a really clear way here for people to 118 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 3: feel confident that there is light. 119 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 4: At the end of the tunnel. What's the quickest way 120 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 4: to get your military spend into two percent of GDP 121 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: so we can say we're doing our but go and 122 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 4: weigh two billion dollars on five helicopters. 123 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 5: You say, what, now, that's rubbish. What's different on the 124 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 5: defense plan is that in the past you'd have people 125 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 5: say we're going to do all this stuff, but there 126 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 5: was no money associated with the investments. We've got a 127 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 5: really clear plan for fifteen years of the capabilities and 128 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 5: the skills we want to build into the defense force 129 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 5: in New Zealand that will then plug in well with 130 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 5: the Australians and other defense partners. And what's unique here 131 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 5: as we've put spending associated with that, So we will 132 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 5: spend twelve billion dollars over the next four years. 133 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: Right, So all of this is a part of the 134 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Defense Capability Plan, and that was released earlier this year 135 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: that promises twelve billion dollars of funding over the next 136 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: four years, including nine billion dollars of new spending. I 137 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: see you've said that the two point five earmarked for 138 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: the strengthening this infrastructure over the next four years is 139 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: subject to annual budget processes. Does that mean that that 140 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: could change, could it get less or could it potentially 141 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: get more? 142 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: Well, I mean the Defense Capablity Plan overall could get more, 143 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: So it's been reviewed every two years with that and purpose. 144 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: In terms of the infrastructure, my expectation is that it 145 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: would be the same or potentially higher. 146 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 4: But you know, we should be. 147 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: Able to operate in a way that provides studentcy, including 148 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 3: on a cost basis for textpayers. But also I think 149 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: the key point is that we need to do as 150 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 3: much as we can with the netwindow and be smart 151 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: about how we do it. So a lot of it's 152 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: actually prioritizing within all the different needs, all of which 153 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 3: are pressing, all of which are important in their own ways. 154 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 3: So that's going to be the skill I think over 155 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: the next few years, is prioritizing effectively and actually also 156 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: delivering because it's of course it's all very well to 157 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: put the money aside, but what that means in terms 158 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 3: of the budget processes that still need to take place 159 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: as individual projects will be assessed and agreed by the 160 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: government of the day as we go along, right, And you've. 161 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: Got that two point five in the kiddy, just so 162 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,559 Speaker 1: things can can get moving and approved quickly. In terms 163 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: of that announcement earlier this year, I believe it was 164 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: called the Defense of State Regeneration Program. Has that been 165 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: switched up and that's what we're talking about now. The 166 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: updated version of that. 167 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 4: The Defense Estate Regeneration Program, will do it. In the 168 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 4: Defense Loves have got acronym, just like government is an aspect. 169 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: It's one of a few different elements within the Defense 170 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: States and Property Program more generally safe the DEPPER is 171 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 3: within the DEPP. 172 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 4: That's within the. 173 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 3: DCP, So you know just about I've got the whole 174 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 3: alphabet going, but it's part of it. So the Defense 175 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 3: Estate Regeneration Program is saying, well, we need ongoing maintenance 176 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: and that can be founded through through depreciation and it's 177 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 3: business as usual but ongoing, whereas the announcement that we've 178 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: made more recently is actually saying that there are large 179 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: injections of capital on a really strategic basis and making 180 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 3: decisions for example that actually we want to have the 181 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 3: Navy remain in Devonport Naval Base in Auto of Auckland 182 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 3: for the next generation or so, because of course, if 183 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 3: you don't have that big scale commitment of funding and 184 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 3: also some of those decisions locked and then there's no 185 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 3: point in doing anything more than just a routine maintenance 186 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: to keep them keep them going. 187 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: Frankly, so are you expecting by twenty forty for all 188 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: of the Defense Force housing to be livable and no mold, 189 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: no heating issues, no infestations, nothing. 190 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 3: I would ceronly hope and expect you will actually be 191 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 3: much sooner than that. And as I say, the work's 192 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: been ongoing already and the officials who have been undertaken 193 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: network in Defense Force itself deserve credit for that. But 194 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: we do need to move as quickly within the window 195 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: between now twenty forty to do all that. I think 196 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 3: the window of the next fifteen years reflects that there 197 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: are some large scale projects if you're thinking about wolves 198 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: and runways and other major facilities that simply can't be 199 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: knocked together in eighteen months to two years, are like housing, 200 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 3: So that's going to. 201 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 4: Be that some of that medium to long term work 202 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 4: needs to take place. 203 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: Right now. I know, an opposition, you kind of get 204 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: a general idea or a general consensus about what everything 205 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: looks like. But as soon as you picked up that 206 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: Associate Defense and of course of the Veterans portfolios as well, 207 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: and you saw the actual numbers in the state of 208 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: some of this infrastructure, what was your first thoughts. 209 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: Well, my first thought is that we're failing our service personnel. 210 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 3: I think it's illegal and a moral obligation, certainly in 211 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 3: the veterans space. And there are things that we can 212 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 3: talk about how we can do better to recognize and 213 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 3: also provide entitlements to those former service personnel. But I 214 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 3: was certainly shocked by just how bad things have become. Actually, 215 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: it was a quarter of a century ago that I 216 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: joined the Navy in New Zealand myself, so at Differentport 217 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: where we've made this week's announcement about the future of 218 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 3: that naval base as well as the infrastructure more generally. 219 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 3: That gave me an insight to how things were back 220 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: in the year two thousands, and I'm sad to say 221 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: things aren't any better. 222 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 4: In fact, you know, somewhat worse than that. So I 223 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 4: had an insight, and. 224 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: As you say in opposition, it's possible to get a 225 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: feel for how things are, but it had been worse 226 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 3: than I had expected. 227 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 4: Or hoped when we came into the role of government 228 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 4: a couple of years ago. 229 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: Right, So when you visit Devonport, can you see something 230 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: and does it just look exactly the same? 231 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 4: I mean, it's changed in a few different ways. 232 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 3: There have been some good investments made over a period 233 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: of time, but it's also a large footprint. 234 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 4: You know, for example, there's the Officer Training school up on. 235 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 3: Narrown It Beach, but further up on that same part 236 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 3: of the north shore where it's been a bit of 237 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: time that's been effectively replaced by porter common buildings. 238 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 4: There you've got sea. 239 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 3: Training areas that are now quite frequently underwater, and a 240 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 3: certain amount of that's just environmental change due to sea 241 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 3: level rise in other factors. So more or less, if 242 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: you were to squint you could see it more or 243 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: less the same, and that's a problem in itself to 244 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 3: the extent that that investment is needed. But also things 245 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 3: are just a little bit more aged and tired after 246 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 3: twenty five years, and also bearing in mind that things 247 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 3: have been pretty bad necked back in the day even then. 248 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: Well, I saw I read this quote. A large proportion 249 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: of the defense of state was built over eighty years 250 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: ago during World War Two. Now that seems. 251 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: Wild, It does seem well, doesn't it. Yeah, I mean, 252 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 3: the hou's them just to go back to that. I mean, 253 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 3: a lot of that's sixty years old. And of course 254 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: you can have an old house that's been well maintained 255 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: and improved over the years, but a lot of them 256 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 3: have not been. And yeah, I mean, if you think 257 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: about World War II and significance of the fact that 258 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 3: then we understood really clearly the importance of national security 259 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: and truth be told, I think successive governments in the 260 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: intervening years of both political stripes. By the way, it's 261 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 3: not a partisan point that I make have underinvested because 262 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 3: it's easy to kick the can down the road when 263 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: it comes down to the trade off of schools and 264 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: hospitals that are in our respective areas of the country 265 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: that's really immediate. Of course it's important, but you know 266 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 3: that the regional security in the South Pacific, even in 267 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: our relative backyard, that's still over the horizon, literally out 268 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: of sight, out of mind. And then of course you've 269 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 3: got the defense spaces that are not visible to the 270 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 3: general public precisely because they're set aside as areas of. 271 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 4: Restriction behind the wire. 272 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 3: And so if you add those things together, it's a 273 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: little wonder but not excusable or justifiable. 274 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 4: Nevertheless, that defense has taken. 275 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: A backward step in terms of the investment that's been 276 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 3: placed in it. 277 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: How many homes or barrack beds have been taken out 278 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: of use because they were just unsafe or below standard. 279 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: I don't know have the actual number, but it's a 280 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: real shame that we've had to have been in that category. Again, 281 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: I go back to the situation Pupacorda with the particular 282 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 3: Barrett block that I can picture and almost you know, 283 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 3: relive as though I was walking in it. Now with 284 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 3: that black mold situation. 285 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: So fi fleric blocks, I think a upper quarter. 286 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, certainly, you know, it's unacceptable that 287 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 3: we should get to the point where any need to 288 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: be retired. 289 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 4: Almost on an emergency basis. 290 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: So we're aiming to have a program going forward that 291 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 3: doesn't get to that state where we need to you know, 292 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: reactively so to speak, in those situations and actually to 293 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: have a positive, proactive maintenance program going forward. 294 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: And also you know, think about replacement that's naturally going 295 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 4: to be needed over time. 296 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: What is it like for personnel living inside these houses? 297 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 4: Horrible? 298 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, in the government's own briefing papers, 299 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: it states the healthy homes is a minimum standard and 300 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: still won't improve current or conditions, leaving them unfit for 301 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: modern living. Yet here we are, we are still living 302 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: in these homes. We are still living with mold, as bestos. 303 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: Our kids are getting sick, adults are getting sick, you know, 304 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: to the point where Tamidikia being hospitalized. They're being a 305 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: take taken away in ambulances because of those ongoing respiratory problems, 306 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: those asthmetic problems that all of these home. This condition 307 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: of the homes leaves people where. 308 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: I know that some families have been vocal in the media, 309 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: especially in the last few years, about the living conditions. 310 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: Have the families and those actually living in these places 311 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: been consulted as part of this plan. 312 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been in a lot of contact with defense 313 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: horse families, including service personnel themselves, so you know that's 314 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 3: going to be an ongoing effort. 315 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: You know. 316 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: I want to know that the changes that we're making 317 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: and the investment that we're making is actually got a 318 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: week for them, so used to get to this point 319 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: of sat down and listened to families, but particularly superce 320 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: personnel who also can speak on behalf of their families 321 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: because they get it, you know, better than anyone of 322 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: course when there's pressure from the partner or the spouse 323 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: or the family. But certainly you know that's got to 324 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: be an ongoing discussion. It's not a one and done. 325 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 3: This week's announcement is at the end of it, you know, 326 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: and sort of walk away. It's actually to understand how 327 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: that's playing out in real life with these people. 328 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: This is the third plan since twenty sixteen. Hey, what 329 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: are we going to get another plan in a couple 330 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: of years time? Or is it just you know, when 331 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: you peel off the surface, it's like getting worse and 332 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: worse the deeper you go. 333 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the closer you look, the more that 334 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 3: you see, and there's also been an element that over time, 335 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: of course, things do deteriorate. It's the natural wear and 336 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 3: tear in the way of things. So I think we 337 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: could continue to review until the cows come home and 338 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 3: we'd simply find that things aren't getting better. But to 339 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: do something about it, I think what it should look like, 340 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 3: and it does look like in twenty twenty five is 341 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: doing some immediate things that are desperately needed, also having 342 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 3: a long term plan, setting aside the funds, and then 343 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 3: committing to not getting in that scenario again. And it's 344 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: certainly what we're aiming to do as a government with 345 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 3: today's announcement. 346 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: And I suppose as well the significant input of funding 347 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: in through Devenport really gives that area certainty that it's 348 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: there to stay. 349 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and that's important for the local area, but 350 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 3: it's important for the Defense Force and particularly the Navy 351 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: if you think about decisions that need to be made 352 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: for them in the way that they train and live. 353 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: I mean, it's also important by the way that we're 354 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: open minded about opportunities elsewhere, and you know it might 355 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 3: be further north in the North Island where other port 356 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 3: facilities are that there could be some opportunities up there 357 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 3: as well. But to say that we're going to have 358 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: a future for the Navy and Devenport for the foreseeable 359 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 3: future means that we can and make those investments without 360 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 3: seekond guessing whether they're going to be throwing good money 361 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: after there. 362 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously you served as well, you were in uniform. 363 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: How does that experience shape what you think about and 364 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: deal with personnel today? And what do you make of retention? 365 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: I mean, did I read correctly that you went over 366 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: to Ozzie and we're part of the Australian Defense Force 367 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: at one stage? How did they get you over there? 368 00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: Are they still doing? 369 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 4: Yeah? 370 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 3: Well, I did join the New Zealand Navy as a 371 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 3: good ki Land in fact from Walklands, so it wasn't 372 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: even that fad just to go across the bridge and 373 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 3: spend a bit of time in Devonport. But I joined 374 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: the Australian Navy actually because they have submarines and that 375 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: was an area that I was keen to get into. 376 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 3: So I just been a bit of time in the 377 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 3: submarine squadron before coming back to New Zealand. 378 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: Right, So do we need submarines? 379 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 3: Well, I mean we could well have underwater vessels, but 380 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 3: of an unman nature, I think is probably the most 381 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: realistic way that we could achieve that. So those decisions 382 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: are a really exciting part of the Defense Capability Plan 383 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 3: and more particularly something called maritime Fleet renewal, which I'm 384 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: responsible for. I've got the delegation from the Defense Minister 385 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 3: douth Colins. So I'm really enjoying myself thinking about what 386 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 3: that could look like or should look like in the future. 387 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 3: And you know, if you think about the military applications, 388 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: but obviously also search and rescue, fisheries protection, humanitarian assistance, 389 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 3: disaster relief, there are a lot of things that we 390 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 3: expect how our Navy and now Defense Force to do. 391 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 3: So trying to make some smart decisions that enable us 392 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 3: to have all those capabilities is that we're currently engaged in. 393 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: And in terms of attrition and rates, are we finding 394 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: that a lot of young people are wanting to get 395 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: into the force. 396 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 3: We are actually and it's really pleasing to me that 397 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: that's the case, and I know that the Fence Minister 398 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 3: herself is also really gratified about that. Some of it 399 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: is actually saying, well, if a young person or a 400 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: career key we decide to join. They want something different. 401 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 3: They doing that to save the country. They do frankly 402 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 3: want operational experience. Are there lots of things that we 403 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: can do and are doing to send them, in some 404 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: cases into harm's way, but other times just to give 405 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 3: them a life in work that they could not have 406 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 3: if they were to remain as a civilian in New Zealand. 407 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: So the key is to retain these good people in 408 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 3: an economic environment where job opportunities are more constrained elsewhere. 409 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: Traditionally we do see that is an easier time to recruit, 410 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 3: So obviously we'll need to make sure we even out 411 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 3: through the economic cycle. But I think as well as 412 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: people can see that the government is committed to providing 413 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: them with the facilities that they need to love, work, 414 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 3: train and ultimately, if necessary to fight, then it's a 415 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 3: powerful motivating. 416 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 4: Factor as well. 417 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chris, Thanks Chelsea. That's it for 418 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 419 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzadherld dot 420 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane 421 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm 422 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or 423 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 424 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: another look behind the headlines.