1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Now Doc, they might be doing a bit of a 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: U turn. This is the case of the lizards and 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: the mine in Otago. So initially they denied the mining 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: company Oceania Gold, permission to clear grass and vegetation. Off 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: their mind this was over the concern about the lizard 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: relocation plan. But Ruth Isaac from DOC has gotten in 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: touch with us says there was a miscommunication and the 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: Department will now work closely with Oceania Gold to quote 9 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: swiftly progress their application. Resources Minister and Martyr of Mining 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: Shane Jones said this morning that he felt concerns were 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: a bit overblown about these ten thousand lizards. 12 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: These lizards are as common as acne on a teenager. 13 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: That's first thing. Secondly, they are scattered throughout the entirety 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 2: of Otago. Every time a farmer does something on his 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: or her land, they don't need a special wildlife permit. 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: So Nikola Tokey is Forest and Bird Chief Executive with me. Now, Hi, Nikola, 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: gyeeddo Ryan? 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 3: How are you good? 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: Thank you? 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: Sounds like DOC might be changing their minds a little 21 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: bit here. 22 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: Hard to say at this point. What they're saying from 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: what I get is that they're looking for further information. 24 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 3: But I just wonder whether we, you know, should just 25 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: focus on facts not feelings. And I worry. I guess 26 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 3: I'm a little bit worried about Shane Jones. He seems 27 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: rather fixated on small reptiles at the moment in this country. 28 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 3: But yeah, this is about a business needing to follow 29 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 3: due process in order to carry out their works, much 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: like many of your business owner listeners will have to 31 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 3: do in their daily lives. And they didn't have the 32 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 3: right information to the table, and as such the department 33 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: was unable to progress what they wanted to do at 34 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 3: that point. 35 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: What is it about so clearing some vegetation? Could it 36 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: really kill ten thousand lizards? Or is that overblown? 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 3: No? So the issue here is in New Zealand. And 38 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: you know we often talk about New Zealand being called 39 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 3: being the land of birds. Probably more accurately, we could 40 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: be and should be known as the land of lizards. 41 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: So we have well over one hundred species of lizard, 42 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 3: either geckos or skinks found here in New Zealand, found 43 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 3: nowhere else in the world. Right, So once you destroy 44 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 3: a habitat that these things live in, there's nowhere else 45 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: you can replace them from And I wonder Ryan whether 46 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: if they were in fact Crackapool or somehow Hector dolphins 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: ministry evolve to live in a tuft landscape, we'd even 48 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: be having this conversation. And what we see repeatedly from 49 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 3: Shane Jones, for example, is this kind of constant belittling. 50 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: And he loves it, right, he loves all that stick. 51 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: And I think New Zealanders are getting bad over it 52 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: because most New Zealanders care very much about our threatened 53 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: species in our native wildlife here in New Zealand and 54 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: expects that they're protected through the regulations that we have 55 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 3: in place. 56 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: Are the lizards we're talking about endangered? 57 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: So all of New Zealand lizard species are threatened in 58 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 3: some way, shape or form because of mostly because of 59 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: the cumulative impact of the of the various threats that 60 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: they have. Right, So, if they're not getting eaten by 61 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: cats and hedgehogs and then the habitats getting destroyed by 62 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: mining companies, et cetera. 63 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: So what's the difference between threatened and endangered? Because I 64 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: asked are they endangered? And you said they're threatened? 65 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: Well, so in New Zealand we have a threat Classification list, 66 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: and there are a number of categories on that list, right, 67 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: And if you are in the worst category, like for example, 68 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: a carcupul or a Hector's dolphin, then you sit within 69 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: the nationally critical. If you are just the next least worse, 70 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: you are naturally endangered. And on and on it goes 71 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: what politicians and decision makers sometimes to realize. 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: So threatened not as bad as endangered. So they're threatened 73 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 1: but not endangered. 74 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: I'm just no, no, no, no, it's not quite right, and 75 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: it's it sounds complex, but it's not. 76 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: So. 77 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 3: New Zealand has the highest proportion of threatened species on 78 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: the planet right, which is kind of embarrassing because we 79 00:03:58,320 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: love to be number one in the world. This is 80 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 3: a of a jubius honor. And it costs more to 81 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: protect species that are more threatened or more endangered because 82 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: you have to put so much effort into protecting them 83 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 3: before they once they've fallen off the cliff, if you like. 84 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: And what happens if they do fall off the cliff? 85 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: Does the world end? 86 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: I think part of our identity and how we describe 87 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: ourselves to the world ends. We also have international and 88 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: national legislative requirements that you know in New Zealanders very 89 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 3: much here about this stuff. 90 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, but does the ecosystem fall apart? 91 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So every time you pull a species or remove 92 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 3: a species from an ecosystem, the resilience of that ecosystem 93 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: gets less and less. It's like taking instruments out of 94 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: an orchestra, right, and ultimately the resilience of that ecosystem 95 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 3: and the fragile nature of it threatens us. So it's 96 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 3: really important and reconsibility. 97 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: Just clearing the vegetation, won't the lizards just move to 98 00:04:58,560 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: the next but of grass? 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 3: I mean, that's very much sounds like Luke Clark and 100 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: Door's sketch about the the boat with the with the 101 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 3: oil leak, that they're just going to tow it out 102 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 3: of the environment. These these these things they can move 103 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 3: millions of years to exist in the various habitats and 104 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: niches that they've found. But look, I do want to 105 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: get to the facts here because what's happened with Minister 106 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 3: Jones and Nichol. 107 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just want to I'm genuinely trying to 108 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: get my head about it. Cat can they not just 109 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: move to the next paddock? 110 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: It's not that simple, Ryan, because these things to be 111 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: protected well because in the next paddock there may well 112 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 3: be cats and hedgehogs or that you know it might 113 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: not have. 114 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: There are no cats and hedgehogs in this in this 115 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: in this area. 116 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: It's not serving your listener as well to simplify an 117 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 3: issue as complex as New Zealand's ecology that defines the film. 118 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 3: But why I do want to come out of business. 119 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: I'm a simple person. I'm simple person. I'm just trying 120 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: to get a simple answer. That's all it is. 121 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, simply put the using their lizards in this case, 122 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 3: or the moths or at one point, I think Minister 123 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: Jones was blaming EWE Consultation as a distraction for what 124 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 3: the real issue is here. So this is a business right. 125 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 3: This is a company that has had their application recommended 126 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: for decline by the Attager Regional Council, initially declined by Zock, 127 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 3: has had two separate audits to look into the fact 128 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 3: that they repeatedly breached their resource consent requirements. And the 129 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 3: reason that you know, anybody is putting this kind of 130 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: business at risk is not the lizards skittering around the landscape. 131 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 3: It's a bad business with bad business Prectice that answered 132 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: filling their normal requirements. 133 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: Nichola, we have tolieve it. They appreciate you coming on 134 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: the show. Nikola, Takey Forest and Bird chief executive. 135 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 3: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. 136 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Listen live to news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 137 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.