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Speaker 1: Heather. Do you think there was clown music on the

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Speaker 1: ferry bridge when they were panicking with the autopilot button? Hm,

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Speaker 1: Steve quite. I think there might have been a little

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Speaker 1: soundtrack of clown music going on there. So winniep and

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Speaker 1: New Zealand first proved correct on two things. Now, first

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Speaker 1: claim autopilot was on Ding correct. Second claim they couldn't

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Speaker 1: get autopilot off in time Ding correct. Third claim somebody

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Speaker 1: was off having a coffee. Now I'm starting to wander,

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Speaker 1: is it possible, Like it's very hard to believe that

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Speaker 1: there was absolutely nobody on that ship who knew that

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Speaker 1: you had to hold down the button for five seconds

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Speaker 1: to make it go off. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: In which case, is it possible that the person who

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Speaker 1: knew about that button and that you had to hold

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Speaker 1: it for five seconds was off having a wibi or

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Speaker 1: doing something?

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Speaker 2: So like?

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Speaker 1: Partially right on claim three, I stand I stand by

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Speaker 1: to find out where that person was on the ship,

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Speaker 1: because they obviously weren't on the bridge trying to get

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Speaker 1: the button to go down for five seconds. Update on

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Speaker 1: Darlene Tana, she has broken her silence, She's spoken to

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Speaker 1: the Herald. She reckons that the leak of the report

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Speaker 1: that we had last night and which was also then

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Speaker 1: leaked to arn Z this morning, as designed to pressure her.

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Speaker 1: She says the leaks were intended to pressure her, but

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Speaker 1: she didn't speculate on who was behind them. Quote the

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Speaker 1: leak of the investigation report or part of it appears

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Speaker 1: to be another attempt to pressure me. She's also confirmed

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Speaker 1: she won't be pursuing a further inquiry. She says there's

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Speaker 1: no point in inquiring into whether the inquiry made the

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Speaker 1: right cause because that's just going to waste money. She

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Speaker 1: didn't want to have anything to say, like I had

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Speaker 1: nothing to say about what rachel Bert in the report

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Speaker 1: had found about her husband. Her insights not mine, Nor

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Speaker 1: can I speak for my husband. He's his own person

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Speaker 1: and how he engaged in the process was entirely up

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Speaker 1: to him. That speaks to the heart of this investigation.

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Speaker 1: He makes his own decisions about his business. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: have any obligation to close that disclose that information to me.

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Speaker 1: And then she was asked whether she would remain in

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Speaker 1: Parliament as an independent MP. She wouldn't say that. She

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say either way. She just said that she was

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Speaker 1: taking time to consider the report. She said, I gave

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Speaker 1: the Green Party my utmost patience throughout the investigative process.

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Speaker 1: I am disappointed they are not extending the same patients

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Speaker 1: with me, which actually is a fair call, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Because she has been made to go home and take

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Speaker 1: some sicky leave, which in a weddled love for four months,

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Speaker 1: and in that time she waited for them to do

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Speaker 1: their thing. But then what they get the report on

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Speaker 1: Friday and they're like quit by Monday. I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: they can make just give her a couple of days

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Speaker 1: to think about it. Twenty two away.

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Speaker 2: From seven together do to see Alan.

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Speaker 1: As we've discussed, Otago University has released its freedom of

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Speaker 1: speech policy and it's been called gold standard. The university

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Speaker 1: has promised not to restrict debate or deliberation, even when

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Speaker 1: it comes to ideas that could be seen as offensive

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Speaker 1: or immoral. Emeritus Professor James McLaurin led the working group

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Speaker 1: that put the statement together, and James is with us.

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Speaker 2: He James, Hi, Heather, this.

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Speaker 1: Is surprisingly good from somebody sitting on the outside who

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Speaker 1: cares about free speech. I'm looking at this saying this

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Speaker 1: is surprisingly good. Was it a battle to get it

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Speaker 1: to this point.

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Speaker 2: It's a long process. We've been working on this since January.

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Speaker 2: We put out a call that anybody in the university,

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Speaker 2: in all our campuses around the country could come and

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Speaker 2: talk to us in confidence, and so we've had a

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Speaker 2: huge number of discussions. The university is keen on doing this.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the universities have a free speech statement.

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Speaker 2: We didn't have one. We think it's essential. The university

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Speaker 2: has got to have one. So it's been exciting doing it.

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Speaker 2: It's good that it's done.

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Speaker 1: Did you have much internal opposition to this?

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Speaker 2: Oh? We gave people a few questions that you know,

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Speaker 2: we thought they might come along having thought about. And

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Speaker 2: one is, you know, why does free speech matter? And

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Speaker 2: how much should a universe care about free speech? And

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Speaker 2: pretty much everybody who either came and talked to us

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Speaker 2: or wrote us something came with views about the importance

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Speaker 2: of free speech. Everybody thinks that it's important. Not everybody

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Speaker 2: thinks of it in quite the same way.

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Speaker 1: Do you think, though, I mean, is it one of

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Speaker 1: those things where when you when you talk about free speech,

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Speaker 1: the proponents of free speech will argue for it. But

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Speaker 1: when a problematic speaker pipes up and says something problematic.

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Speaker 1: The other guys are suddenly going to find their voice

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Speaker 1: and have a problem. Then, like, your battle with this

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Speaker 1: policy is down the road yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess in some ways it is. But you're

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Speaker 2: going to think. You know, if you think about the

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Speaker 2: people that we think about, the famous scientists and scholars,

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Speaker 2: you know, Darwin Newton, Copernicus, whoever, all those people, why

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Speaker 2: do they all have in common? They all had views

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Speaker 2: that all the people around them disagree with. So they

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Speaker 2: all had to fight to get a very different view

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Speaker 2: to be you know, taken seriously by people. So you know,

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Speaker 2: that's our heritage and we've got to grab onto that.

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Speaker 2: If you're if you're all about discovery and a university

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Speaker 2: should be, then this is something we've we've got to do.

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Speaker 2: We've got to own.

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Speaker 1: James if the listener seven who spoke up about their

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Speaker 1: views on the tot ang Amori, we're not employed by

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Speaker 1: the University of Auckland, but we're employed by the University

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Speaker 1: of Otago right now with the policy in place, do

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Speaker 1: you reckon they would have been treated differently?

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Speaker 2: It's hard to know because I'm not in the University

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Speaker 2: of Auckland. But I feel like they.

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Speaker 1: Would have because the chancellor, the Vice chancellor, Dawn Freshwater

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Speaker 1: obviously went publicans said that what they had said publicly

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Speaker 1: had upset people. So presumably under this policy, she wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have said something like that because you guys accept that

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Speaker 1: people will be upset and that's just how life is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when people came and talk to us, they had

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Speaker 2: all sorts of ideas about, you know, what the standard

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Speaker 2: would be. We shouldn't upset people, we shouldn't defend people,

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Speaker 2: we should respect one another. You know, they all sound

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Speaker 2: like nice things, but they're all too ambiguous to have

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Speaker 2: us a standard. People just disagree about what's offensive, they

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Speaker 2: disagree about what it is to be respectful to one another,

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Speaker 2: so those things can't be the standard. And I guess

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Speaker 2: the other thing that we thought is, you know, New

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Speaker 2: Zealand's got plenty of problems to solve out there at

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Speaker 2: the moment, and we've got a pretty polarized world, and

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Speaker 2: we don't want to limit free speech in the university

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Speaker 2: where people are informed and want to have constructive debates

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Speaker 2: more than we limited you know, out on the streets

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Speaker 2: as it weren't. So we take this permissive view and

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Speaker 2: this idea that we want to get people with really

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Speaker 2: different ideas in the room together.

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Speaker 1: Why did you guys make the call that you have.

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Speaker 1: You have the ability to say though to outside speakers.

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Speaker 2: So we think of this thing called university community that

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Speaker 2: has the staff and all our students and you know,

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Speaker 2: everybody who's connected with this with the university, including people

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Speaker 2: that we invite to come and work with us. All

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Speaker 2: those people we expect to have read this policy and

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Speaker 2: we are going to try and get them and boozed

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Speaker 2: about this policy and thinking that this is this is

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Speaker 2: the way for it. People who come from outside the

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Speaker 2: university and just say I want to rent a root,

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Speaker 2: you know, I want to have some sort of event there.

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Speaker 2: They're not in any sense, you know, bound by this policy.

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Speaker 2: As you just said before. You know, the future is

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Speaker 2: a big place. We don't know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: It's possible at some point in the future that somebody

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Speaker 2: comes along they want to hold an event that we

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Speaker 2: just think is way off face, is not the sort

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Speaker 2: of things we want to happen in university. So we

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Speaker 2: want to give ourselves a get out clause for that case.

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Speaker 2: But it's not the case. You know that's not for

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Speaker 2: our starting students.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that you're going to have a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of parents around the country who are going to

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Speaker 1: want to send little Johnny and little Jill down to

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Speaker 1: Otigo University because of this policy? Because I'll tell you what,

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Speaker 1: it will appeal to a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I am part on this working group because for

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Speaker 2: a long time I taught critical thinking, I teach philosophy,

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Speaker 2: and parents are very enthused about the idea that their

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Speaker 2: kids will get to university and be presented with difficult

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Speaker 2: problems and have to cope with, you know, disagreement and

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Speaker 2: discovering something they really thought was true turns out, you know,

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Speaker 2: probably not. You know, those are the things that we

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Speaker 2: want people to get out of university rather than just

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Speaker 2: wrote learning a bunch of facts. So I hope that

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Speaker 2: people will see this as a positive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think they will. James, he thank you

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Speaker 1: very much, really appreciate talking to you, as James McLaurin

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Speaker 1: Otago University Emeritus professor who helped them write the freedom

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Speaker 1: of speech policy. For more from Hither Duplicy Alan Drive,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks'd B from four pm weekdays

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,