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Speaker 1: Historic scenes, though, have played out in the White House again.

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Speaker 1: Today's we saw US President Donald Trump met with South

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Speaker 1: African President Cyril Ramoposa early this morning, and then during

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Speaker 1: the meeting, Trump rolled out a large screen TV and

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Speaker 1: instructed a staff as to turn the lights down, and

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Speaker 1: then played footage of what Trump claims as an ongoing

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Speaker 1: genocide against white farmers in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: These are veryal, says Radio. Veryal says over one thousand

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Speaker 2: of white farmers.

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Speaker 1: President Ramoposa, who was once actually Nelson Man Dallas chief negotiator,

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Speaker 1: was blindsided by the playing of the video.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to know where that is, because this I've

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Speaker 2: never seen.

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Speaker 1: South Africa's High Commissioner to New Zealander is with us,

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Speaker 1: As Johnny said, tale Johnny.

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Speaker 2: Hello, hello here. It's good. Hi.

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Speaker 1: Awkward to watch, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does a bit of quote. But I think

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Speaker 2: my president handled it very well, although he did not

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Speaker 2: expect it. But overall, I think he did manage to

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Speaker 2: explain to the President of the United States, President Trump,

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Speaker 2: that there is not genocide in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: They may not, John, they may not be genocide, but

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Speaker 1: I mean we would all have to accept that it

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Speaker 1: is not a great time in South Africa to be

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Speaker 1: a white farmer, is there. I mean, there is the

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Speaker 1: violence and then there's the threat of having land confiscated.

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Speaker 2: That's that's not true, Heather, South Africa. It's a normal

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Speaker 2: country like any other country. Then the the president demonstrated

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Speaker 2: yesterday that we are a normal country. There is no genocide.

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Speaker 2: He also brought with him white farmers that came to

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Speaker 2: the White House with the with the with the President

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Speaker 2: and those white farmers who spoke big business people. One

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Speaker 2: of them is the richest person in South Africa and

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Speaker 2: there was Yeah, he's one of the most the richest

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Speaker 2: person in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: Look, I take your point though, that there is no genocide.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, there's obviously no evidence of genocide.

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Speaker 1: But it is hardly normal, Johnny, to have a piece

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Speaker 1: of legislation like the one that was passed in January

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Speaker 1: that allows a government to just confiscate land without any

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Speaker 1: kind of compensation if they want to.

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Speaker 2: No, that legislation is actually misinterpreted, right. The the government

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Speaker 2: is not going to take really nearly land from the

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Speaker 2: people without negotiating with them.

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Speaker 1: What the laws is available to them, though, isn't it Johnny,

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Speaker 1: and if they decide that they need it for whatever

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Speaker 1: reason in the public interests, they are actually able to

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 2: The law gets well, just like it happens anyway anywhere

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Speaker 2: else in the world, when the government wants to build

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Speaker 2: an infrastructure like a road or a rail or something,

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Speaker 2: they will negotiate with the with the land owners and

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Speaker 2: compensate them for it.

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Speaker 1: Does it happen elsewhere in the world, though, that the

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Speaker 1: government can do that without any compensation.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, there is there Our law

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Speaker 2: doesn't say there is no compensation. That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: That people are misreading our law and they are misinterpreted

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Speaker 2: book for their own advantage, Johnny.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, I haven't gone to read the law myself,

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Speaker 1: but I have read multiple news agencies, including for example,

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Speaker 1: this example from Al Jazeera, saying, while the law does

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Speaker 1: spell out fair compensation, it also allows for seizure without

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Speaker 1: compensation in certain circumstances, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, that is not true. That is not true.

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Speaker 2: Where there is no compensation is the land that is

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Speaker 2: lying in disused land that is lying, fellow, It's got

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Speaker 2: no no, no, no landowner or something like that. You know,

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Speaker 2: that the state will take.

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Speaker 1: It development, So you might I also read no plans

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Speaker 1: for development. So let's say somebody owns the land, it

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Speaker 1: might look fallow to you. They may have no plans

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Speaker 1: for development because they're just leaving it there. But they

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Speaker 1: own it. Then in that circumstance it can be it

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Speaker 1: can be taken without compensation. That's not fair. That tramples

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Speaker 1: on property rights.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, the government is going to follow processes. Yeah, they'll

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Speaker 2: have to find out who the landowner is. They'll do

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Speaker 2: all the attempts to find the land owner, and after

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Speaker 2: finding the landowner, they will enter into negotiations the land

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Speaker 2: and and they agree with the landowner on the fair

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Speaker 2: amount to be paid to him for that piece of land.

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Speaker 2: So there's narrative that there is a land that has

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Speaker 2: been taken without in session. It is not true. It

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Speaker 2: is not true. It doesn't happen. There is no one

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Speaker 2: in South Africa right now who can tell you that

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Speaker 2: his land was taken because the person.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, the legislation was only passed in January.

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Speaker 1: That would probably explain that. I'll tell you what else, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll I think that also, it is kind of abnormal

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Speaker 1: internationally to have somebody like Julius Malemma running around saying

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Speaker 1: kill the boot and that just being sort of accepted

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Speaker 1: as part of the public discourse. I mean that's pretty wild.

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Speaker 2: But you see one thing you must know right, South

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Speaker 2: Africa is a democratic country. South Africa has got a

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Speaker 2: number of political parties. Off Julius Malemma is one of

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Speaker 2: those political parties. Julius Malemba is not in government. He

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Speaker 2: is a leader of a small political party. So whatever

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Speaker 2: he says, it cannot be attributed to government. I said,

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Speaker 2: it's not the government policy.

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Speaker 1: Understand say that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so it is a party, so you cannot say

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Speaker 2: if some little party says something that you attribute to government.

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Speaker 2: You know, and.

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Speaker 1: Johnny, nobody is blaming the government for it. It is

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Speaker 1: just an accepted part of political discourse, which is I

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Speaker 1: think would see quite uncomfortably if you are a white

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Speaker 1: farmer being threatened by one of your national leaders.

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Speaker 2: Listen, but you see, Heather, let me just explain to

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Speaker 2: you the meeting yesterday. You saw we had four white

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Speaker 2: business people. Those are big businesses, right. We had also

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Speaker 2: one white minister, our Minister of Agriculture who is a

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Speaker 2: white person, and all of them they said publicly in

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Speaker 2: the White House to Trump himself to say there is

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Speaker 2: no genocide. There is no such thing in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: So this this narrative of genocide has been manufactured elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: It is not true, It is not happening.

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Speaker 1: Going to get no debate from me on that. Johnny, listen,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time and thank you very much

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Speaker 1: for having a chat to us. It's Johnny Seith Twalle,

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Speaker 1: who is the South African High Commissioner to New Zealand.

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