1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: A bit of banks growing around the government's proposal for 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: new shoplifting laws that you change would shift the burden 3 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: of proof onto suspects. In other words, you are guilty 4 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: until you prove yourself otherwise. This is where the Bill 5 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: of Right Tact comes in, of course. Paul Goldsmith, Justice 6 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Minister with us. 7 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning Michael. 8 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: As regards the shoplifting, is this sort of the same 9 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: as proceeds of crime. In other words, you know the 10 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: onus is now on you. 11 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: Ah No, it's more akin to a traffic offense. So 12 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: you know you're speeding, you get a ticket. There's no 13 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: sort of debate about it really unless you've got a 14 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: reasonable excuse and you pay the fine. And the whole 15 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: purpose of it is to find to come up with 16 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: a quick and swift way to deal with shoplifting other 17 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: than the alternative, which is to go through the whole 18 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: court process. 19 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: Define a reasonable excuse. 20 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: Ah, well, I don't know. You're in the supermarket and 21 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: you're three year old, stuck a banana in your handbag 22 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: and you didn't realize something like that. 23 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: Perhaps is that that's not reasonable. Banana shouldn't be in 24 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: your handbags. And this is the problem, isn't it mean. 25 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: So no, no, no, no no. I think that well, 26 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: that is the design that people sometimes do make genuine mistakes, 27 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: and that the legislation can be designed to deal with that. 28 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: But that the idea though, is simply to come up 29 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: with something that is simple and swift. 30 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: And when we come to the Bill of Rights and 31 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: the angst around or so called angst around the Bill 32 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: of Rights, is it true to say you can basically 33 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: do this. You are the government, you have the numbers, 34 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: and you can argue about the Bill of Rights. Still 35 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: you blue in the face. This is going to happen. 36 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: Yes, But we don't sort of just ignore the Bill 37 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: of Rights. Will design it in a way. We'll set 38 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: out to design it a way that works effectively within 39 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: the Bill of Rights. And just as the speeding of 40 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: fine fine does as well. That's the basic sort of process. 41 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: I mean, we've got to remember, we've got a real 42 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: issue of retail crime. It's a big increasing people going 43 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: around stealing stuff. We've got to do something different. Currently 44 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: you've got to go off to court. That's a very 45 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: high threshold and doesn't happen enough. And so what we're 46 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: introducing is a swift and effective fine as an intermediate 47 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: step to deal with things so that there is a 48 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: real consequence for that level of shoplifting. 49 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: As part of this the first respond to stuff. I 50 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: don't think anyone's going to disagree with the changes to that, 51 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: are they? 52 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 2: No, I don't think. So. We've got a whole bunch 53 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: of changes there to make sure that the people that 54 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: put themselves in harm's way on behalf of society especially 55 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: looked after. 56 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: Do you see it as a deterrent or more a 57 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: punishment given as far as I can work out, people 58 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: who attack first responders aren't in their right mind and 59 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: therefore will have to pay the price of the lad stage, 60 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: as opposed to them thinking it through before they do it. 61 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: Well, it's a little bit of both. It does seem 62 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: to signal and it filters out and it makes it 63 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: clear that we hold those people specially in regard because 64 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: they're putting themselves at risk. 65 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: Dot com. While I've got you, explain to me how 66 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: something that started in twenty twelve is still working its 67 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: way through the New Zealand court system. 68 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: Well, look, it's a very long and slow process and 69 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: this individual case obviously goes through that process and it 70 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: has been very, very long, and that's as it is. 71 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: That for the future, you know, I will be looking 72 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: at the extradition rules because, as you say, it's taken 73 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: a very long time. 74 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: Is justice being seen to be done or is justice 75 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: being seen to be manipulated? 76 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: Well, well you have to trust our justice system and 77 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: I trust our justice system. 78 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: Are you glad you won yesterday? And from that? How 79 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: much more is there to go? Do you think? 80 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: Well, yes, I'm obviously I'm pleased that my decision was upheld, 81 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: but from where there are potential appeals to be had? 82 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: Still, yes, there are. And if you haven't followed this 83 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: with the sort of detail many of us have, then 84 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: I'll work you through it in a couple of moments. 85 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith, I thank you for your time. 86 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: As always, For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen 87 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: live to news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, 88 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.