1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: By the way, the numbers this is from the Health 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Ministrove in Australia fell from seventeen and a half percent 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: this is for young people at the start of twenty 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: twenty three to fourteen point six percent in April. On 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: the Huddle Tonight, Jordan Williams, whose Taxpayers Union, and Jack Taym, 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: host of Q and A and Saturday mornings on News Talks, 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: you'd be good after good evening, gentlemen. Helloh, there we do. 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: Doesn't mean that it's concept too. 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: Guys. I've totally screwed the phones up. But you're both 10 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: here now. Good evening with you. Right to have you 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: guys on. Hey, let's start with vaping. Jordan, do you 12 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: think that young people if we because over in Australia 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: they do the pharmacy. You basically can't go to a dairy, 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: can't go to service station. You're going to go to 15 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: a pharmacy to get a vape. Do you think there 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: would be enough to put people off here? 17 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 3: Well, it does. Becky was banging on everything she said 18 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 3: except one thing. She said that she clearly wasn't aware 19 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 3: of New Zealand's smoking rates. That we are going to 20 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 3: achieve the smoke the smoke tras the smoke Free targetal 21 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 3: wrong that smoking rates aren't higher. In fact, here as 22 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 3: one of the only countries in the Western world where 23 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 3: the latest start is that more people are smoking, and 24 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 3: the reason for that is that they have made vaping 25 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 3: so difficult. The thing that I thought was fascinating that 26 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 3: interview is she said that use vaping rates were fifteen 27 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 3: percent despite all those restrictions. Well, New Zealand, despite having 28 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 3: a much looser vaping or regulated but much more a 29 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 3: valuable vaping regime, we've each got the best of both. 30 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: It's dramatically reduced our smoking rates, which is great. And 31 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: similarly here we've also had peak in age vaping. According 32 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: to ASH, which is the sort of sane anti smoking brigade, 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, it was fourteen percent, it's now down 34 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: to eight percent, and we're also continuing to reduce the 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: people actually on the harmful duarries. So I just Australia 36 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 3: is kind of the worst of all them. That they've 37 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: restricted vaping so much people have stayed on. The diaries 38 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: are really given into the beginning to town lobbyists, whereas 39 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: New Zealand seems to be in the balance right, that 40 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 3: we're both reducing teenage vapings but keeping me at the 41 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 3: availability for adults to make the switch. 42 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it never really took off vaping there like it 43 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: did here because that the Aussies love a love a 44 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: dart jack. 45 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, they love to hone on a couple of langers famously. Yeah, 46 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: it's funny. I was in Sydney for New Years and 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: I remember like walking through central Sydney in the kind 48 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: of nightclub districts and being like, something feels something feels 49 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 2: slightly different here, Like something feels slightly off. What is it? 50 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: And I couldn't put my finger on it? And then 51 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: I realized it just felt like there were way fewer 52 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: people vaping and perhaps more people smoking in Australia. And 53 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: Jordan's quite right. I think if you look at the 54 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty four year old smoking rates in New 55 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: Zealand versus Australia, I think they're almost twice as high 56 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: in Australia as they are in New Zealand. So there is, like, 57 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: you know, a kind of meaningful difference there. But I 58 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: suppose like that the question really is how many people 59 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: are being dissuaded from smoking by having relatively loose vaping rules, 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: and that is the tricky balance to strike. I mean, 61 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 2: if if Australia is dissuading young people from from taking 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: up the vapes, that's fantastic, But ultimately, if it means 63 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: a few more percentage of young people decide to smoke 64 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 2: instead in the neat effects could be could be worse. 65 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: Who's got the baby? 66 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: We're talking about youth vaping and all of a sudden 67 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: he's got excited, so we're working hard. 68 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: I didn't know because Jordan, you've got a young one. 69 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: Ever knew. I wasn't quite sure which of you it 70 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: would be, But. 71 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the I think this isn't the first 72 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 3: time that Jack said the babe in the background on 73 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 3: this huddle. I think he must think Evalue's being informed. 74 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: You know, he's getting involved. 75 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: Really well, he shouldn't be listening to you, Jack. 76 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: I got one more stat for you, that's that I 77 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: had written, and this just blows my mind. The use 78 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: daily smoke rate in Australia is eight point three percent. 79 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: Ours is one point two, So I get. I mean, 80 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 3: none of us want teenagers beyond the vapes, but that's 81 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: a big difference. Intan You'd much rather someone picking up 82 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 3: a vape than picking up a cancer stick. 83 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd rather have a kid on this side of 84 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: the testment than that one on the smoke issue of 85 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: smoking the huddle tonight, Jordan Williams and Jack Tame and 86 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: let's hear from Simon Watts outside the Local government conference 87 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: in christs today. What this place as fast as possible. 88 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 3: We're aiming to have that all decided by the definitely 89 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: before Christmas. 90 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: We can go faster, we will. Jordan, you were there. 91 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: He's talking about a rates cap. Is this them announcing 92 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: that they are going to do it? 93 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: You are concerned when Simon Watts came out a few 94 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: weeks ago and said, lo, we've green with the Taxpayers 95 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: Union that you know, we need some sort of rape cap. 96 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: Wraps out are out of control. And these figures out 97 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: earlier this week that the average rates in the last 98 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 3: three years gone up by more than a third, three 99 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 3: times a level of inflation. Clearly something to be done. 100 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 3: Our concern was is that if you set the rates 101 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 3: cap in a few years time, what's going to happen 102 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: as councilors are going to ramp up the rates in 103 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 3: the meantime so very significantly. We're actually at our event. 104 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: He was speaking in front of our enormous semi truck 105 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 3: that says cap rates now he's got the now. But 106 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: this is very significant. And there was a whole series 107 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: of announcements yesterday and a new bill that picks up 108 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: a number of really good policy suggestions that the taxpayer 109 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 3: has been making for New years, we making for Donkeys years. 110 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 3: I think we're actually now we're a local government minister 111 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: who really gets it and is actually saying to local government, look, 112 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: enough is enough. We've got to get the costs under control. 113 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: So he actually said we're going to do it, and 114 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: we're going to do it. We'll have a plan by Christmas. 115 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's still some potential. I mean I've just been 116 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: today with the local government leaders at the very woke 117 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: our GMZ conference and some of them just look at 118 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 3: you like a like a cat's bottom and don't want 119 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: to engage, and then not that it's actually a very 120 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 3: you know, they come and tap me on the shoulder 121 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 3: and say I can't be seeing with you, but keep 122 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: up the good work, and then run away. But the 123 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 3: key thing is is that there seems to now what 124 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: our gems you'd want to do with some sort of 125 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 3: fudge between core spending and non core spending and only 126 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 3: cap the non core part. I think it actually be 127 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 3: much cleaner, and this is what the government's going away 128 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: to work on, much cleaner, to say, lock anything that 129 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: is not infrastructure, anything that is not CAPEX, should be capped. Otherwise, 130 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: what we risk is games between what is core and 131 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: what is non for it, because every rate payer I 132 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: talked to only wants to be paying for core services. 133 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: Jack, do you think it's I mean, whether it's core 134 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: or non core or a combination of both. Is it 135 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: a good idea hardcore? 136 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 137 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: I think yeah. My view isn't as strong as Jordan's 138 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: on this, but I do think that if they go 139 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: down this path, carving out an allowance so that councils 140 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: have a kind of different budgetary line for infrastructure or 141 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: CAPEX is absolutely vital because of course, like if you 142 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: if you analyze the water infrastructure at different councils across 143 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: the country, you have massive disparity. Some councils have managed 144 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: their assets really really well over the last few decades. 145 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: Some councils haven't and thus faced a much more significant 146 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: and you know, much more significant investment in their future 147 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: to make sure that the water is up to scratch 148 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: and meet the various regulations under the new Water Regulator. 149 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: So I think that is an absolutely vital part of 150 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: the equation. One thing I would would just say is that, 151 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's curious to think about this governments, the 152 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: haste with which they sought to quote, restore democracy to Toadunger. 153 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: You remember they ended the commissioners and had elections in Todunga, 154 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: so Tota you could have it city council back again. 155 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: And I think there's an argument to be made a 156 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: bit of a philosophical argument that if you truly believe 157 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: in local democracy, well elite officials should be able to 158 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: make decisions about how much they charge and what they 159 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: spend that money on. And that I agree. 160 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 3: I agree with you. 161 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: It is, you know, in one breath to say you 162 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: believe in local democracy and then in the next to 163 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: say we're going to cap rates. Well, I don't know 164 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: that that's necessarily a philosophically consistent. 165 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: Position, because if people didn't want amount. 166 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: There's two things on this. Number one is we're part 167 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: of that democratic reforms. We want recall elections, but two 168 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 3: is that it's not a total cap on rates per se. 169 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 3: It's saying that if council wants to go above inflation, 170 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: it should go to the people in local referenda. The 171 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 3: Hawks Way Regional Council used to often go to local 172 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: referenda for big decisions. This should be no different to 173 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: the contrary this. This is about local democracy, but it's 174 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 3: putting the control in voter's hands, not this Euchin's end world, 175 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 3: where it is undemocra undemocratic to put apparently more control 176 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: on voters' hands. 177 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that that. The argument against that is 178 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: that voters have an opportunity every three years to make 179 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: that decision, and that you're going to be holding refere 180 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: interrupt the wires of otherwise. 181 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 3: Clearly that's not working when every year promises are being 182 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 3: broken and rates are going up by thirty four and 183 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 3: a half percent in the last three. 184 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: Years, and so those elitted officials should be held to 185 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: account by the voters who put them there. 186 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and no one's voting, so clearly people don't care. 187 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: Would I guess be the way to end that argument. Guys, 188 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for coming on this evening. Jordan 189 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: Williams from the Taxpayers Union and Jack Tame from here 190 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: at News talks'd B and Q and A. 191 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to 192 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 3: News Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 193 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: the podcast on iHeartRadio