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Speaker 1: Afternoon. The Police Minister has accused former Police Commissioner Andrew

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Speaker 1: Costa of a cover up. Mark Mitchell says his office

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Speaker 1: received more than thirty emails with allegations against Jevin Mcskimming

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Speaker 1: by a young woman, but he says Andrew Costa instructed

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Speaker 1: ministerial staff to forward those emails straight to Police National Headquarters,

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Speaker 1: with instructions that the Police Minister wasn't to see them.

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Speaker 2: I've never heard of a protocol like that been put

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Speaker 2: in place before, but and I think we can all

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Speaker 2: see that it was with the same object in mind,

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Speaker 2: and that was quite simply to protect given Mitts Skimmer.

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Speaker 1: Andrew cost has been stood down from his current public

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Speaker 1: service job on full pay. Former police negotiator Lance bur

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Speaker 1: Police negotiator Lance Burdette is with me, high Lance, Hi, Heather.

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Speaker 1: Cover up is a pretty big word. Does it look

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Speaker 1: like a cover up to you?

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Speaker 3: Well, there something going on, heither. I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: don't know what it is. I know as much as

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Speaker 3: everybody else what I see at the moment. There's a

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Speaker 3: number of systemic failures throughout police where the systems have

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Speaker 3: fallen over and I can only put that down to

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Speaker 3: a loss of experience staff following and the TI happened

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Speaker 3: eleven two thousand feet and then started the police started

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Speaker 3: doing something called volunteer retirement and restructuring, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of experienced staff left. Now, if you look at the

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Speaker 3: top echelon of the police, excluding the Commissioner, who I

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Speaker 3: might say is doing a fantastic job of trying to

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Speaker 3: get things right, they are quite limited experience and perhaps

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Speaker 3: not as well versed in risk management as they could be.

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Speaker 3: And so because of that, it's just a lack of

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Speaker 3: understanding of systems and processes. We know, we're seeing it

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Speaker 3: now starting to be exposed. This whole lots of huge

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Speaker 3: experience that that left the police.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't I mean, it's not systems falling over,

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Speaker 1: it's systems being pushed to the side by the top cop.

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Speaker 1: I mean he frustrated the processes himself, didn't they.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well that's I mean, I can't say yes or no,

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Speaker 3: but that's what it looks like. But the thing I

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Speaker 3: come back to here that you're talking about somebody who

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Speaker 3: was a Crown solicitor. Yeah, so he's a lawyer and

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Speaker 3: by all accounts are very good at that. So I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure what's happened there. Yes, the systems are in place,

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Speaker 3: but they haven't been used. That means it's a systemic

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Speaker 3: failure to use the systems.

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Speaker 1: Out of there, explain to me this. Okay, let's take

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Speaker 1: take Androcossa out of it. There's an example where one

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Speaker 1: of the officers is sitting with Tanya Kuta and is

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Speaker 1: saying to her I need to speak to the woman

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Speaker 1: making these allegations and is constantly being told by Kuda

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Speaker 1: and another officer who are there, basically that she shouldn't.

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Speaker 3: How do you explain that, I can't. All I can

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Speaker 3: say is that, well, there's only two options, isn't there. Well,

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Speaker 3: there's three ignorance and competence or something nefarious? Is it

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Speaker 3: something nefarious? I don't know. Yeah, I mean again again again,

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Speaker 3: there needs to be see that. This is the thing

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Speaker 3: where there's lots of out there at the moment, there's

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Speaker 3: lots of reckons and lots of people and lots of

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Speaker 3: saying corruption. Well, it's not it's not. Well from what

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Speaker 3: I can see, it's not corruption. It's just a lack

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Speaker 3: of experience. But if there is corruption, it needs to

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Speaker 3: be exposed. So we need to have some form of

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Speaker 3: external independent inquiry. I know it's going to be another inquiry,

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Speaker 3: but don't you think we need it, because yes, it

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Speaker 3: has reputation.

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Speaker 1: What would it do differently from the IPCA.

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Speaker 3: Well, it wouldn't be limited, it would be unlimited in

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Speaker 3: what it can do.

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Speaker 1: Now, a lot of the Coalition investigation here lance where

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Speaker 1: we have the police go at members of the police

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Speaker 1: go in and talk to all of these senior officers

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Speaker 1: and find out why they were doing this.

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Speaker 3: That's a good start, but that's the own institution dealing

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Speaker 3: with the own institution. Now you got to think hither

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Speaker 3: when I send a file as at Attested Inspector off

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Speaker 3: to the Crown solicita, they are relying on doing a

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Speaker 3: prosecution based on the information I provide. The IPCA is

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Speaker 3: very similar. Yes, they do a lot of work themselves,

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Speaker 3: and they do a lot of interviews themselves. But when

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Speaker 3: you have somebody who is outside of everything and has

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Speaker 3: some form of leverage to say, you know, someone like

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Speaker 3: PEPs the Serious Fraud Office, who you must answer their questions, right,

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Speaker 3: So it needs something like that where you're required to

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Speaker 3: if you don't answer and mars to them. Honestly, there

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Speaker 3: are severe repecially.

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Speaker 1: Because this is the question that we have. This is

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Speaker 1: the debate is Andrew Costa a bad guy or is

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Speaker 1: he just bad at his job? And unless you actually

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Speaker 1: investigate that, you will not.

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Speaker 3: Know that's it. That's exactly right. Look, I have worked

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Speaker 3: with him. I previously held him in high regard. I

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Speaker 3: nothing's changed that with his obligations and his interactions with me.

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Speaker 3: He's somebody who's a forward thinker, who's somebody who's very

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Speaker 3: inclusive and has worked. However, something has happened, what is it?

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Speaker 3: And we're all just guessing what's happened? Needs to have

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Speaker 3: somebody with this robust ability to come in and go, right,

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Speaker 3: let's see what's happened in including perhaps some of the

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Speaker 3: members of part of it and including you know, make it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to say, you know, a formal Crown investigation,

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Speaker 3: but it certainly needs to be something that robust the

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Speaker 3: confidence and police would have taken a hit to restore.

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Speaker 3: It is to bring out and expose what's happened, and that,

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Speaker 3: from what I can see, is what the current commissioner

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Speaker 3: is trying to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Lance, listen, thank you. I appreciate your expertise there.

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Speaker 1: Lance perdet former police negotiator.

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