Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talksb.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to the Weekend Collective onton Beverage. If
Speaker 2: you've missed any of the previous House by the way,
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Speaker 2: And same with Politics Centro where we chatted to Laura
Speaker 2: mclur she's nat MP, you remember the one who she
Speaker 2: held up an ai image of herself naked was blurred out,
Speaker 2: of course, but to highlight the potential for what will
Speaker 2: highlight the law change she wants to see made to
Speaker 2: the revenge porn legislation. Interesting chat with her, but also
Speaker 2: Mark Mitchell joined us, the police minister around the latest
Speaker 2: to get together of the ah what's the word boy,
Speaker 2: racist juvenile delinquents in live in and anyway, it was
Speaker 2: interesting talk to interesting to see whether they follow that
Speaker 2: up with a bit more urgency as he possibly hinted at.
Speaker 2: But anyway, you can check those out on the News
Speaker 2: Talks b website. Right now, it is time for Smart
Speaker 2: Money and we're going to have a chat about well
Speaker 2: a bunch of things around employee happiness and retention, including
Speaker 2: things like career progression. Whether that's a significant thing for people,
Speaker 2: whether they are it's something that's an important part of
Speaker 2: keeping them happy in the workplace. I notice it in
Speaker 2: the news. There was just the story that Joe Gilfillan
Speaker 2: read out just now about job security and pay being
Speaker 2: key factors for office workers pursuing new roles. There was
Speaker 2: at serve our five hundred people from finance, accounting, it
Speaker 2: technology finding sixty one percent of respond on would change
Speaker 2: jobs for better pay. And I guess the question is,
Speaker 2: if you're happy in your job, is it all about
Speaker 2: the money? And what is the key to how can
Speaker 2: employers look after employees and keep them happy that they
Speaker 2: are not necessarily chasing the biggest bang for buck Anyway,
Speaker 2: Todd Hamington is a new guest on the show. He's
Speaker 2: the CEO of Chameleon Creator. There was a little hint
Speaker 2: there with the choice of opening song, and he joins
Speaker 2: us for Smart Money. Todd get a nice to meet
Speaker 2: you man. Yeah too, good. Good. Tell us about your company.
Speaker 3: Yes, so I founded this company in New Zealand actually
Speaker 3: about four years ago, and it's a learning design tool
Speaker 3: that companies use to create digital content. TOM predominantly do
Speaker 3: increase and enhance the capability of their staff, so you
Speaker 3: can design learning content on it for all devices, and
Speaker 3: we also beck that designer with a data and analytics
Speaker 3: platform as well, so they can kind of report back
Speaker 3: on the investment of learning within the business.
Speaker 2: It's about so growing people in the workplace and their knowledge.
Speaker 2: I guess that's exactly.
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely so. So yeah, there's obviously we get to
Speaker 3: work with some pretty impressive organizations in the space that
Speaker 3: really do invest in their people. So probably have a
Speaker 3: bit more of a rose tinted lens in regards to
Speaker 3: you both. I guess there's every business has different challenges.
Speaker 3: It's got it's unique DNA within it. But I mean
Speaker 3: they're looking to either you know, retain their quality stuff
Speaker 3: and enhance their existing stuff and lower that sort of
Speaker 3: chin because obviously that's a plus sum game for all
Speaker 3: businesses if they focus.
Speaker 2: On what do you what I mean, what do you so,
Speaker 2: what do you think keeps people in the jobs that
Speaker 2: they're in and keeps a happy workforce. I mean, obviously
Speaker 2: you'll see it through the prism of the lens of
Speaker 2: what you do as a business. But what have you
Speaker 2: what have you learned in terms of what keeps people
Speaker 2: happy in the workplace?
Speaker 3: I kind of got two perspectives. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well
Speaker 3: these two factors there. There is the economic decision, which
Speaker 3: I totally understand, and you know, the grass is greener.
Speaker 3: That's another one is you know, they typically look at
Speaker 3: the broad turn see what else is out there. And
Speaker 3: the other one is just an environment. You know, there's
Speaker 3: your work environment somewhere somewhere that you really cherish being
Speaker 3: in and and does it cater for a good lifestyle
Speaker 3: around that. So so yeah, that's where we typically work
Speaker 3: as well as really kind of focusing on creating a
Speaker 3: really I guess modernized learning environment for companies that invest
Speaker 3: in their people, which is really cool.
Speaker 2: So what do you mean by a modernized learning environment?
Speaker 2: You might have to go into a bit more detail
Speaker 2: for us now for our listeners as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah sure, look, I guess it's really cool. So there's
Speaker 3: a there's obviously movement now where businesses are operating extremely quickly,
Speaker 3: so they're using L and D more as a competitive
Speaker 3: advantage rather than just a check box exercise.
Speaker 2: So L and D learning and development.
Speaker 3: That's right, learning and development. So we'll cut those off.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think there's a life cycle of ways
Speaker 3: they deliver that. The common ones you know, span from
Speaker 3: you know, arming their recruitment team with a really powerful
Speaker 3: employee value proposition, so making sure that they're hiring the
Speaker 3: right talent from day one. And then there's the onboarding
Speaker 3: aspect of getting that speed to impacts, which to which
Speaker 3: you know learning can significantly help with. And then there's
Speaker 3: like things like de risking the business you know through compliance,
Speaker 3: which we can unpack a little bit, but you know,
Speaker 3: you want to reduce those big costly errors and legal
Speaker 3: risks and health and safety issues and stuff like that
Speaker 3: as well. So so ANDAST like I said, like you
Speaker 3: get sort of a huge return on investment from that,
Speaker 3: and you would retain staff. I think is a really
Speaker 3: important one because it's not just about avoiding the costs,
Speaker 3: it's about the compounding value of that because there's the
Speaker 3: obvious financial savings you get, you're keeping their ip within
Speaker 3: the business, you're growing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sorry, carry on.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the other two factors is the operational
Speaker 3: aspect of it.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, how did you end up getting involved
Speaker 2: with what you're doing?
Speaker 3: So? I was originally a designer for a learning and
Speaker 3: development company in Melbourne. Actually, so I'm guilty of going
Speaker 3: abroad learning, up scaling myself and then coming back and
Speaker 3: starting a tech company here in New Zealand. So, but
Speaker 3: I was a designer and I was responsible for delivering
Speaker 3: really large scale learning solutions for a lot of the
Speaker 3: big brands across aus gravity in New Zealand. And yeah,
Speaker 3: that's why we built our tool actually, because it's really
Speaker 3: difficult to achieve there's a lot of moving parts in learning.
Speaker 3: And it's not just you're not just building a static website.
Speaker 3: You know, you're building a lot of moving parts. There's
Speaker 3: a lot of assessments you have to report back to
Speaker 3: the business.
Speaker 2: What sort of companies engage you guys to do what
Speaker 2: you do?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we work with mid to large enterprises predominantly like
Speaker 3: a am Z bank min to ten. There's a lot
Speaker 3: of retailers spec savors.
Speaker 2: So what's an example of what you do for minor ten?
Speaker 2: What would they what would they be?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I guess they came to us to solve
Speaker 3: a problem of the speed of design, in particular designing training.
Speaker 3: There it took them about sort of eight weeks to
Speaker 3: deliver a learning module to the business.
Speaker 2: When yeah, okay, what about you've had I think the
Speaker 2: Ministry of Health one of your clients as well.
Speaker 3: Yep, that's right, yep. So we've got a number of
Speaker 3: government departments that create learning content and that's right through
Speaker 3: you know, onboarding, compliance tools and system adoption, career progression,
Speaker 3: learning leadership. So there's a really interesting content.
Speaker 2: And what do they report back to when it comes
Speaker 2: to the career progression and what you're doing with them?
Speaker 3: Well, I think, I think what a common problem with
Speaker 3: career progression and that's sort of works its way back
Speaker 3: into retaining good stuff I guess is people like to
Speaker 3: see a good career pathway within their business that are
Speaker 3: working within and that that helps that pretention aspect of
Speaker 3: that type of cohort. But a good example, you know,
Speaker 3: if you get a really high performer within the business
Speaker 3: that's working there for three plus years and they get
Speaker 3: promoted into a leadership possession. It's not always just as
Speaker 3: simple as becoming a great people leader. And becoming a
Speaker 3: force multiplier within the business. So they get to arm
Speaker 3: their people with that progression through you know, enhancing their
Speaker 3: leadership people leadership skills.
Speaker 2: And so do you how does the program you do
Speaker 2: help them step into that? Obviously, it's about helping them
Speaker 2: step into a new role. It's one thing to be
Speaker 2: a good sort of worker and have spent two or
Speaker 2: three years in a company, but then to get them
Speaker 2: into a position where they've got new skills. What do
Speaker 2: you guys do in that space? How does that work?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, yeah, it depends on the organization. There's a
Speaker 3: lot of learning designers that I guess approach the in
Speaker 3: a different way, but they distribute e learning across multiple
Speaker 3: locations on the mass and it's about personalizing that and
Speaker 3: not sort of falling into the captain obvious trap when
Speaker 3: it comes to the learning, which I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people have any negative experience with typically, so and
Speaker 3: personalizing it means something like, if you've been here for
Speaker 3: four years and you've done the same compliance training for
Speaker 3: four years in a row, how about we treat you
Speaker 3: a little bit differently and give you a pre assessment
Speaker 3: to make sure that you compliant and you don't have
Speaker 3: to go through that whole entire process of the same
Speaker 3: reputation of learning.
Speaker 2: Is it something that companies generally struggle to do, do
Speaker 2: you think in terms of to upskill their workers and
Speaker 2: among other things, in terms of retention? Is it? Is
Speaker 2: it something that's harder than it sounds?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely, That's that's kind of how we've built
Speaker 3: our business. Really, it's it's extremely difficult to create learning
Speaker 3: that's on brand with your business. They're typically not armed
Speaker 3: for the huge amount of resources the on d function
Speaker 3: of a business, so so that's you know, they so
Speaker 3: they're quite hamstrung by old legacy technology. So you know,
Speaker 3: that's that's why we built Familion typically is to solve
Speaker 3: that problem and democratize that creation because I think, like
Speaker 3: I said earlier, there's a lot of subject where experts
Speaker 3: within a business that have really powerful institutional knowledge that
Speaker 3: you want to you want to bring that to life.
Speaker 3: So E Learning set peek of medium to do that.
Speaker 2: Right. By the way, how much do you do you
Speaker 2: reckon from your experience and work places? I mean, obviously
Speaker 2: people want to up skill and career progression and things.
Speaker 2: What do you reckon? The biggest thing is to retaining
Speaker 2: employees from keeping an happy workforce, is it? You know,
Speaker 2: how much does it boil down to money if you reckon?
Speaker 3: I guess it's very different for the individual and the business.
Speaker 3: But what a business can do is focus on the
Speaker 3: environment a lot more on you know, my business is
Speaker 3: actually a really good case for that. We you know,
Speaker 3: I could probably make a lot more money overseas as
Speaker 3: a CEO, to be honest, but I've created a remote
Speaker 3: workforce in New Zealand. I get to live in Monaca,
Speaker 3: arguably one of the most beautiful places in the world.
Speaker 3: You know, I've got shared office spaces for all my
Speaker 3: staff across the business where we're really productive environment that
Speaker 3: we can rapidly innovate in. So so, you know, for
Speaker 3: me personally, it's there are different factors in that. There
Speaker 3: is do I want to sit in traffic for two
Speaker 3: hours a day? Do I want to live in a
Speaker 3: one bedroom apartner in Melbourne or do I want to
Speaker 3: come back and spread my wings a bit and the
Speaker 3: likes of Central Otago. So so it's not everyone's in
Speaker 3: that position. I totally get that. You know, there is
Speaker 3: a certainly an economic decision you make, but but businesses.
Speaker 3: You know, the businesses we work with are looking at
Speaker 3: that environmental factor. You know, what's that employee value proposition?
Speaker 3: How do we make this a really awesome place?
Speaker 2: Actually, you're going to have the jargon for me is
Speaker 2: what what is just to clarify for people who are listening,
Speaker 2: what's an employee value proposition?
Speaker 3: So that that's we created. It's it's basically arming your
Speaker 3: recruitment team with the business case and what your business,
Speaker 3: what your business culture is. So I think a big
Speaker 3: problem when it comes to recruiting is you could recruit
Speaker 3: the wrong person that's not aligned to your culture. So say,
Speaker 3: and there's peripheral benefits that set outside the salary. You know,
Speaker 3: what are those kind of fringe benefits that we can
Speaker 3: provide you as a business.
Speaker 2: What have you found that they are that? What are
Speaker 2: those other thringe benefits that you think work best for people?
Speaker 3: There's a multitude a ways I could probably spect to
Speaker 3: the ones that we have. For instance, like, so we're
Speaker 3: fully remote, so you get to work from anywhere. As
Speaker 3: long as you have laptop and Wi Fi, are you
Speaker 3: good to go? So you know, I've obtained talent from
Speaker 3: overseas because of that, Like really experienced backing to developers
Speaker 3: twenty years experience.
Speaker 2: Are you talking about within your workforce within my business?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I can definitely speak to that. But your
Speaker 3: businesses certainly approached us in different ways. But they could
Speaker 3: take you know, you could offer what do you have
Speaker 3: healthcare and some health and wellness to support material you
Speaker 3: could offer them, you know, noxy toast for Friday off everything,
Speaker 3: taking birthday all this.
Speaker 2: What do you think the biggest mistakes are that employers make?
Speaker 3: They probably I think a lot of businesses, you know,
Speaker 3: when it comes to learning and development, they probably don't
Speaker 3: focus on the personalization of learning. They have more of
Speaker 3: a broadcasted approach where they spam out a huge amount
Speaker 3: of content. They sit you down and you have to
Speaker 3: go through this process of you know, yeah, completing six
Speaker 3: modules and then you get back to your job again.
Speaker 3: So it's not really you're not really taking advantage of
Speaker 3: that internal branding that you could get with learning and developments.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think that a lot of businesses certainly
Speaker 3: making a lot of mistake around that. And it's such
Speaker 3: a big opportunity to voice your brand and voice your
Speaker 3: culture when it comes to learning design. You've got this
Speaker 3: great mechanism to communicate with your staff, and they don't
Speaker 3: take advantage of that. So and people, I think certainly
Speaker 3: high performers, they want to see a pathway to grow
Speaker 3: and they get that through learning, design and the busines.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, we're going to take a quick moment. I
Speaker 2: eight hundred eighty ten eighty. One of the things is
Speaker 2: we're also looking at is about keeping your workforce happy,
Speaker 2: but how you uptrain, how you upskill people because career
Speaker 2: brick progression being a significant thing to consider for many
Speaker 2: people in their job. But just on the more basic thing,
Speaker 2: I'm curious because on the back of that new story,
Speaker 2: I also read what does it take for you as
Speaker 2: an employee to be happy within your work? Is it
Speaker 2: the money that's going to keep you there or is
Speaker 2: it the opportunity to learn through what the employer provides
Speaker 2: for you to upskill yourself? So I wait, one hundred
Speaker 2: eighty ten eighty, give us a call on that. What
Speaker 2: is the best way to keep your employees happy? We'll
Speaker 2: be back in just to take it's twenty two past five. Yes,
Speaker 2: welcome back to Smart Money. By the way, I see
Speaker 2: that the Warriors have been playing. I've been keeping an
Speaker 2: eye on that game. It looked like that South started
Speaker 2: with a big with a bit of a lead over
Speaker 2: the Warriors, but now the Warriors have turned it around.
Speaker 2: It's thirty to twelve at the twenty four minute mark
Speaker 2: and the twenty four minutes to go, should I say
Speaker 2: in the second half? So the Warriors having a good season.
Speaker 2: Your Warriors fan, Todd we with Todd Hamilton. CEI you're
Speaker 2: a league man.
Speaker 3: I'm a rugby man through and through. My brother's professional
Speaker 3: rugby player, all right, but I am a late bandwagon
Speaker 3: when it comes to the Wars. So still always been
Speaker 3: a fan.
Speaker 2: It's going to go, well, hey, how big generally is
Speaker 2: employee retention or problem? Do you think throughout New Zealand
Speaker 2: people staying in jobs? I mean do people stay there
Speaker 2: because they don't have much choice? Or are they staying
Speaker 2: there because they love it? I mean how hard is
Speaker 2: it for employers to retain employees? Do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think there's there is obviously a problem
Speaker 3: at the moment.
Speaker 2: That's pretty obvious when its Australia, that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is so so yeah, like I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 3: you know, I think businesses really need to focus on
Speaker 3: how they can change that and why people are leaving
Speaker 3: and why they can.
Speaker 2: Stay, and because I just wonder, you know, with with
Speaker 2: I mean that we have so many headlines around people
Speaker 2: leaving and we've got questions with them, obviously, the Ministry
Speaker 2: of Health, the Health Service losing doctors and nurses and things,
Speaker 2: and in a way I wonder, I'm not sure we
Speaker 2: can ever compete with We can never compete with the
Speaker 2: money that's going to be offered overseas, can we. I mean,
Speaker 2: so we have to focus on other things.
Speaker 3: So what are the focus on the strengths?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so what sort of strength? I mean, what if
Speaker 2: you were in charge of all those issues, how would
Speaker 2: you be trying to retain workers? Because so much of
Speaker 2: the news coverage is all about money, money, money, money, money,
Speaker 2: Isn't it not quite Aba?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, it's like I said earlier, you know, it's
Speaker 3: a huge part of the equation and I can totally
Speaker 3: understand why people would take that approach. But there is
Speaker 3: environmental positives to working in New Zealand. You know, like
Speaker 3: I mentioned, we've built a tech company here that's in
Speaker 3: scale up mode at the moment, and we're trying to
Speaker 3: attract really talented experience developers.
Speaker 2: Okay, so what brings them to you? Then? What do
Speaker 2: you sell when you are trying to attract people to
Speaker 2: your company?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So for us, and this is the same as
Speaker 3: a lot about customers as well. What problem is your
Speaker 3: business trying to solve and how do you add as
Speaker 3: much value there as possible? And when people buy into
Speaker 3: their culture and obviously we were small, we're rapid, we
Speaker 3: work really fast, and you get to work automics slaying,
Speaker 3: you add a huge amount of impact to their business.
Speaker 3: And so we might not offer those huge sort of
Speaker 3: Silicon Valley scale up salaries, but you're not just a
Speaker 3: number on the spreadsheet either, because you know you are
Speaker 3: an uncertain economic times and sometimes working with a smaller
Speaker 3: scale up that's built a sustainable revenue engine is actually
Speaker 3: a more secure place to work in future proof yourself
Speaker 3: and you get to grow as well. You get to
Speaker 3: you get to see a bright future in regards to
Speaker 3: your career pathway within this business. So that can be
Speaker 3: quite liberating for a lot of people, and certainly we
Speaker 3: use that to our advantage.
Speaker 2: And so you were talking about Silicon Valley, what's the
Speaker 2: thing that differentiat to you when you're trying to find them,
Speaker 2: get employees, and then what what do you learn about
Speaker 2: them when they accept a job. It's are you tempted
Speaker 2: to ask them why are you're here? Because it could
Speaker 2: be I mean that's obviously you're not going to ask
Speaker 2: that question. But do you try and find out what
Speaker 2: it is that made them accept a job in your company?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think there's there was that sort of phase.
Speaker 3: I don't I remember where there was a huge grow
Speaker 3: at all costs phase where there's big tech companies were
Speaker 3: hiring a huge load of talenton and thinking that just
Speaker 3: injecting volumes of people would solve a big problem. They'll
Speaker 3: be able to move faster and benovate faster. But it
Speaker 3: kind of hit the reverse effect. So I think we
Speaker 3: see this without product development team, where they're building cutting
Speaker 3: edge technology. They're not hems from by a big beast
Speaker 3: or a legacy technology. They're actually working right on the edge,
Speaker 3: and I think that's really liberating for a lot of people,
Speaker 3: especially within New Zealand. At the moment, we do have
Speaker 3: a really powerful tech startup community. So so yes, the
Speaker 3: salary is one thing we try best to compete there,
Speaker 3: but we also provide a culture where it's high feedback,
Speaker 3: high learning, high pace, and you get to learn really
Speaker 3: cutting edge ways of working. So and honestly, we're starting
Speaker 3: to see bigger companies move in that direction as well,
Speaker 3: where you know that building a high learning culture, a
Speaker 3: high feedback culture, where people do you know, add value.
Speaker 3: They feel like they're shifting the needle within their business
Speaker 3: and they're learning a lot of institutional knowledge throughout their process,
Speaker 3: and they're they're building their own artillery throughout their process
Speaker 3: as well. So if you make if you build them
Speaker 3: up as an individual, you're going to get that big
Speaker 3: and dividends in regards to return on investments.
Speaker 2: So how willing are people to actually learn on the
Speaker 2: job in a way? I mean, I guess that your
Speaker 2: your business you're talking about. They sound like they come
Speaker 2: in because if you're if you're part of an early
Speaker 2: tech sort of start company, then the people who are
Speaker 2: coming in they're doing it because they want to be
Speaker 2: at the ground floor and that intrinsically they know they're
Speaker 2: going to learn.
Speaker 3: I think that's that's the that's the kind of goldilocks
Speaker 3: own writers trying to find that founder mentality, but a
Speaker 3: large scale business and and that's that's the once again,
Speaker 3: it's done through a really really kind of I guess,
Speaker 3: innovative way of creating learning design within the company. Are
Speaker 3: you building that person's IP up and are they returning
Speaker 3: their IP back into the business. A good example is
Speaker 3: subject matter experts that use our tool. Typically there used
Speaker 3: to be learning specialists that will create learning design and
Speaker 3: could be quite a niche market for that. But we
Speaker 3: were with a big bank where they have five hundred
Speaker 3: people creating learning within the organizations. That's because they've got
Speaker 3: so much organizational institutional knowledge that they've built over their
Speaker 3: career and they're nurturing that.
Speaker 2: So is that one of the biggest challenge for the
Speaker 2: I mean, you get mentioned companies like A and Zere,
Speaker 2: any large bank and a huge organization, is that one
Speaker 2: of the hardest challenges is that they've got is to
Speaker 2: we'll get everyone on the same page in a way.
Speaker 3: Yes, the nurture of their experience that they're actually creating
Speaker 3: within the ecosystem because you can't learn that stuff at university.
Speaker 3: You can't learn that stuff at school, and you know
Speaker 3: that on the go learning is pretty powerful when it
Speaker 3: comes to just building your own to a portfolio as
Speaker 3: an employee and then you're sit then then you're sharing
Speaker 3: that knowledge within the organization. That's once again, that's the
Speaker 3: way you double down on retaining those that that sort
Speaker 3: of force multiply out than the business, because that's that's
Speaker 3: you get a huge amount of retend on investment in
Speaker 3: those people.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, what are the I mean, what are the
Speaker 2: ways that people might feel they're just going you know,
Speaker 2: they're just going through the motions with things and they've
Speaker 2: been given you know, if they're dealing with up skilling
Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. But where does it
Speaker 2: are there mistakes that companies made that they're sort of
Speaker 2: just going through the motions. They talk a good talk
Speaker 2: when it comes to actions not necessarily followed through.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's like, once again, what can companies
Speaker 3: do right now in regards to solving their problem. It's
Speaker 3: make your onboarding count from day one, so as soon
Speaker 3: as someone steps foot inside your business, that's your first
Speaker 3: impression and a huge percentage of people leave the business
Speaker 3: with them in one year of their onboarding. SPAD be
Speaker 3: really selective and you're learning, you know, don't flood people
Speaker 3: with training, make it relevant and personalized. Like I mentioned, earlier.
Speaker 3: You know, if you've been around for a while, you
Speaker 3: don't want to do the same health and safety montor
Speaker 3: you don't want to do this. You don't want it
Speaker 3: to get this keptain obvious, you know, if there's a
Speaker 3: weak mop on the floor.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is not a criticism avail because we
Speaker 2: are very we have susceptible business to it, you know, security,
Speaker 2: and so they do have to do onboard, they have
Speaker 2: to do they have to do modules that remind you
Speaker 2: not to click on that suspicious link, although.
Speaker 3: You do anything from it.
Speaker 2: I have from time to time. But they have a
Speaker 2: video that goes with it, which is you know, to
Speaker 2: designed to entertain. It's a scenario of actors performing a
Speaker 2: scenario and there's always the guy who does something stupid
Speaker 2: and it's basically but I must say, I generally try
Speaker 2: and turn the sound down it and guess and get.
Speaker 2: But that's the company has to do that because it's
Speaker 2: so important to media company that we retain our IT systems.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and if you think about what goes on
Speaker 3: behind the scenes when someone's creating that, it's quite difficult
Speaker 3: to produce that learning content in a really powerful way
Speaker 3: and keep up with the times and distribute that to
Speaker 3: a global workforce. There's a lot of things that have
Speaker 3: to take place in order to get that content live.
Speaker 3: So that's that's where new modern evening tools can help
Speaker 3: in that department. But you know you're asking a good
Speaker 3: learning designer, and you know the greatest pathway to learning
Speaker 3: is by telling a good story and building good scenarios.
Speaker 3: And you know, as you've seen with a lot of
Speaker 3: bag orgs, especially on the side of the world, when
Speaker 3: they do make a mistake in that area can be
Speaker 3: pretty critical.
Speaker 2: So what would your advice be In the streets, I've
Speaker 2: got a text here from someone saying, your guest, who
Speaker 2: is Todd Hamington by the way from he's the CEO
Speaker 2: of Chameleon Creator. This is your guests you took to
Speaker 2: the bus industry, very little interest in work condition and
Speaker 2: staff retention. Also, senior staff have no knowledge of international standards.
Speaker 2: And I'm guessing, if I was reading between the lines there,
Speaker 2: that this person maybe feels that, Okay, you want to
Speaker 2: drive buses, fine, if you don't, don't and they don't
Speaker 2: feel particularly valued. I mean, there'd be a lot of people,
Speaker 2: especially in an economy where the job in a job
Speaker 2: market where there's not a lot of fluidity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's like that focus on the
Speaker 3: learner gets a little bit lost because of that process,
Speaker 3: and a lot of businesses don't take that they don't
Speaker 3: have an opportunity to give feedback the learner. So, you know,
Speaker 3: our next scenario case at the point do they have
Speaker 3: a voice at or do they does someone you've a
Speaker 3: tecting on the shoulder in regards to a pulse check
Speaker 3: and say, you know, how are you finding working for us?
Speaker 3: You know, what's what's a five on a scale of
Speaker 3: one to five? How happy are you right now? What
Speaker 3: can we help you with? So if you don't get
Speaker 3: an opportunity to give feedback, that's where you do run
Speaker 3: the risk of losing good quality stuff that have shown
Speaker 3: you a lot of loyalty over the years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess, so okay, they've given that
Speaker 2: feed I mean, how often people are stuck in jobs?
Speaker 2: I guess where you know, you give feedback and stuff,
Speaker 2: but does it really make a difference to you. I
Speaker 2: think that there's a lot of cynicism around that sort
Speaker 2: of thing as well, that companies, you know, have boxes
Speaker 2: to take in terms of employer retention and loyalty, and
Speaker 2: they want to get feedback and stuff. But I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: is there are danger that a lot of companies, especially
Speaker 2: the really really large ones. You can imagine, you know,
Speaker 2: a large bank or I don't know. I'm just trying
Speaker 2: to think of some examples where they would go through
Speaker 2: that whole process of asking for feedback. But if people
Speaker 2: don't genuinely see any change, then they just sort of think, Okay,
Speaker 2: it's another form to fill in and it means nothing.
Speaker 3: Absolutely totally agree, and I think I guess I'm sort
Speaker 3: of a case of point in regards that are to
Speaker 3: design agency that we were doing. You know, we're responsible
Speaker 3: for deep lines. I could just stuck to my wheelhouse
Speaker 3: and did my job and been pretty happy, but we
Speaker 3: were you know, there was some pain points within that job,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to solve those problems. And I worked
Speaker 3: in a culture that allowed me to do that, and
Speaker 3: I think that's where I built Chameleon, which is now
Speaker 3: we're spun out as a business. You know, we're servicing
Speaker 3: over two hundred and sixty of the biggest brands across
Speaker 3: Australia in the zillis. We're scaling up and I always
Speaker 3: point back to the culture of that company at the
Speaker 3: time that allowed me to actually solve a problem that
Speaker 3: was outside of the box. I wasn't just checking boxes
Speaker 3: and you know, my doing my day job just punching
Speaker 3: and punching out.
Speaker 2: So when you set left to set up your own company,
Speaker 2: was it because you were dissatisfied with with where you
Speaker 2: were at or was it because you wanted to do
Speaker 2: something new? Because there's a different mindset, isn't there the
Speaker 2: ones getting out and there's one where you are literally
Speaker 2: looking at something else and thinking you're not It's not
Speaker 2: so much about leaving your job. It's about pursuing a
Speaker 2: new opportunity that's exciting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm quite a bit of a unique. It
Speaker 3: definitely wasn't because I was unhapy, so I was pretty happy.
Speaker 3: But I created a tool that I was using that
Speaker 3: the whole company used to create learning content on and
Speaker 3: we didn't plan on building a business, but the output
Speaker 3: of that satisfied customers to the point where they wanted
Speaker 3: to sign up to their tool. So it made a
Speaker 3: lot of sense for me to spin that out as
Speaker 3: a business and solve their problem because their experience and
Speaker 3: the same problem as we were when it came to
Speaker 3: creating a learning design. You know, it's really difficult, took
Speaker 3: a long time, and our toolky solves that for them.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think there's more of a opportunistic move
Speaker 3: in regards to creating a whole tech startup, a bit
Speaker 3: of a risk involved, but yeah, pretty clear we did it,
Speaker 3: that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, we'll take a quick break now. Look, I
Speaker 2: king to hear from anyone else who's moved on from
Speaker 2: one job to another. What was it that caused you
Speaker 2: to leave? But also would there have been reasons that
Speaker 2: you might have stayed? And what do you think employers'
Speaker 2: most common mistakes are when it comes to to employ
Speaker 2: your retention eight hundred and eighty text nine two nine.
Speaker 2: So I'll get it onto a few other texts. The
Speaker 2: moment it is. What did I say at the time,
Speaker 2: was it's coming up to twenty two sex news talks.
Speaker 2: It'd be me.
Speaker 3: I'm a double shadow whiskey. They know me Jay Downstown Stish.
Speaker 1: There's a party downtown here a few stish. Everybody had barget.
Speaker 3: Everybody had everybody.
Speaker 2: I've been bought you since Sunday. I ain't change your fortune.
Speaker 2: Tell my mind for kit God on druggets any and
Speaker 2: we're gonna do this again. Tell your God to bring
Speaker 2: a friend. Oh no, news talks, it'd be this is
Speaker 2: smart money. My We've got a new guest on the
Speaker 2: Show's name is Todd Hamilton is the CEO of Chameleon Creator.
Speaker 2: They actually, I think I might have misunderstood that exactly
Speaker 2: what you do your your gigas, but you basically create
Speaker 2: learning platforms for large businesses to help employees upskill through
Speaker 2: an online to the platform. Is that right? Did I
Speaker 2: get that right?
Speaker 3: Do you did it better than me? Thank you? I'm
Speaker 3: going to steal that sound bite.
Speaker 2: I mean, but how how big a problem do you
Speaker 2: think brain drain is with with? I mean brain drains
Speaker 2: generally a reference to New Zealand. Isn't it New Zealand
Speaker 2: people going to Australia or is it an issue with
Speaker 2: the companies experience what they call brain drain because they're
Speaker 2: leaving people, losing people because of I don't know, more
Speaker 2: money or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been around for a while, they were brain
Speaker 3: drained conversation. I think multiple countries have tried to approach
Speaker 3: it in different ways, and you know, I think Silicon
Speaker 3: Value was apparently it's all been a lot of talent
Speaker 3: from you know, parts of the world.
Speaker 2: And yeah, but were you ever attempted to move your
Speaker 2: business over there, would you be I mean, there a
Speaker 2: case at the moment, you've got that sort of thing
Speaker 2: going for you that you're this creative startup that building
Speaker 2: businesses and stuff. But is there a problem? I'd be like, Oh,
Speaker 2: what ap't Todd Ike's in Silicon Valley?
Speaker 3: Now, I think there's you know, and i'd probably expect
Speaker 3: for a lot of tech scale ups and his long
Speaker 3: now like, it's a pretty good ecosystem to build a
Speaker 3: business in New Zealand. You don't need to ship and
Speaker 3: become a unicorn in Silicon Valley. You know, you can
Speaker 3: build a pretty sustainable business on this side of the world.
Speaker 3: There's a pretty big in the out particular market. It's
Speaker 3: pretty untapped as well across Australia and New Zealand and
Speaker 3: we do deal with a lot of companies in the US.
Speaker 3: But but we could we could definitely base our business
Speaker 3: here and grow to a pretty large scale, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: So the temptation's not there yet. I don't know what
Speaker 3: they would look like in ten years time.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean in terms about the
Speaker 2: companies that you work with, what do you what do
Speaker 2: you think they'd find that the common factors to be
Speaker 2: and the problems that they have at keeping people in
Speaker 2: the jobs that they want to stay in.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the big one is obviously, like I guess,
Speaker 3: you know, gen Z's expectations of a digital experience now
Speaker 3: is quite high in regards to the outside of the
Speaker 3: learning culture. So as soon as they come into about
Speaker 3: the organization and they start learning content within the environment,
Speaker 3: it takes a bit of a it drops down a
Speaker 3: couple of gears in regards to the base and the
Speaker 3: quality of it.
Speaker 2: So so say that again, I didn't quite get that
Speaker 2: when with gen Z, So what they come on, they
Speaker 2: come into a company and then say again, yeah, so
Speaker 2: they get you.
Speaker 3: Know, the way they consume content outside of work now
Speaker 3: was pretty high fidelity and they get to experience some
Speaker 3: amazing applications you know Netflix, Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: But as soon as they come into an organization that
Speaker 3: really slows down quite significantly, and I think especially when
Speaker 3: it comes to learning in our world and digital learning.
Speaker 3: So so yeah, that's that's one thing I think a
Speaker 3: lot of businesses are trying to sold.
Speaker 2: Is that what you're trying to compete with. You're trying
Speaker 2: to basically make an online learning environment for people in
Speaker 2: the workplace that's as engaging as your latest Instagram feed.
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, I mean you probably wouldn't want as engaging
Speaker 3: as Instagram these days, but the experience from from your
Speaker 3: life perspective, absolutely you should. You shouldn't expect anything less.
Speaker 2: Does that create a problem for companies with I mean,
Speaker 2: because there'll be people who are listening to this and go, well,
Speaker 2: it all sounds great that we can do stuff on
Speaker 2: our computer, on our apps, but where does the face
Speaker 2: to face engagement come with? Because I think I would
Speaker 2: say that one of the challenges depending on the company
Speaker 2: you're working for, of course, but a lot of the
Speaker 2: face to face value of people to people versus learning
Speaker 2: certain skills that yeah, okay, we need to get this
Speaker 2: out on mass but where does the where does the
Speaker 2: face to face engagement and happen with large companies?
Speaker 3: Yeah no, I think I think they call it blended learning.
Speaker 3: So yep, there's still facilitated workshops where you go into
Speaker 3: a chopping and it's.
Speaker 2: That little bit old school, is it, Well, I think
Speaker 2: a lot of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you said, you know, there's there's distributive workforce.
Speaker 3: Now there's a lot of sort of hybrid working environments
Speaker 3: people all over the place, and you know, how do
Speaker 3: you digitize that? And yeah, they once again not trying
Speaker 3: to plug our tool, but there's a alitude of technology
Speaker 3: out there that supports there. You know, these especial when COVID,
Speaker 3: you know, businesses understood how to become more remote and
Speaker 3: distributed learning content in a more efficient way. So but yeah,
Speaker 3: that's our wheelhouse. So apologies if I keep going back
Speaker 3: to that, but you know, we do have a bit
Speaker 3: more of like I said, a rose ten to lens
Speaker 3: when it comes to brain drain, because we work with
Speaker 3: companies that are trying to stop that and that's quite
Speaker 3: quite exciting, to be honest.
Speaker 2: Actually, you know the thing is because we normally try
Speaker 2: and get a bit of talkback going, and I realized
Speaker 2: the biggest talk back hook I should have had on
Speaker 2: is the one we've just touched on, whether the e
Speaker 2: learning is the way to go to build your workforce
Speaker 2: or whether people actually prefer the face to face because
Speaker 2: I think there is a bit of a there is
Speaker 2: a bit of a culture clash with that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I might don't mind a bit of both.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's totally I agree. Yeah, I agree, And
Speaker 3: that's why I think blended learning still got a place.
Speaker 3: You know, we don't solve all the world's problems from
Speaker 3: an e learning perspective, it's for sure, what are the what.
Speaker 2: Are the short what are the what are the things
Speaker 2: that you would be wanting to work on in terms
Speaker 2: of what you'd be offering with your e learning tools,
Speaker 2: because it's it's a constantly evolving environment, I'm sure. I mean,
Speaker 2: where's it?
Speaker 3: Where? Where is it?
Speaker 2: Where have you? Where did you start from? And what
Speaker 2: have you got to in terms of what you're offering?
Speaker 3: Do you mean what sort of content do you create
Speaker 3: within the Yeah?
Speaker 2: How how is the content that you're providing evolved over
Speaker 2: the la you know, since you've you got started.
Speaker 3: Hugely actually, because it used to be very black and
Speaker 3: white check box e learning. And you know, you ask
Speaker 3: most people these days that have worked at a company
Speaker 3: that use that legacy technology what their experience is like
Speaker 3: with learning it. It's typically quite quite poor. And I
Speaker 3: think that's you know, that's where you'd see things like
Speaker 3: onboarding modules, compliance modules, tools and system adoption, career progression
Speaker 3: content and on demand sales enablements another big one. We
Speaker 3: work with a lot of retailers with frontline staff are
Speaker 3: out there and selling quite high spec products. How do
Speaker 3: they get that information at their fingertips as quickly as
Speaker 3: possible to help you help that funnel in regards to sales.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's there's a multitude of touch points that
Speaker 3: learning can help with. And like I said, it doesn't
Speaker 3: solve all the world's problems in regards to learning, because
Speaker 3: I think they're still is that sort.
Speaker 2: Of so we're too now, We're too now for your company.
Speaker 3: So I think it's our flagship product is the design
Speaker 3: tool that we allow anyone to create good learning that's
Speaker 3: on brand and and is more of a It creates
Speaker 3: more of a conversation with the learners as opposed to
Speaker 3: broadcasting it. But we we also built a data and
Speaker 3: analytics platform, which is really interesting because I think the
Speaker 3: learning design departments typically get looked at like a cost
Speaker 3: center in a business. It's really hard to report from
Speaker 3: that return on investment. It's not as binary as a
Speaker 3: marketing team. For instance, you know, the conversion design is
Speaker 3: quite black and white. We're learning is very different. So
Speaker 3: giving them some analytics on the engagement of that content
Speaker 3: is really important. You know. I think that that, like
Speaker 3: you said earlier, that cybersecurity module that you did, it
Speaker 3: would be really interesting to see how you engaged with that.
Speaker 3: We fastboarded in the video and we can't assume I assume, sorry,
Speaker 3: but that's like we week with Speaks. Savers are really interesting. Actually,
Speaker 3: like Chris there in Australia, they do a lot of
Speaker 3: digital content on our platform and they actually, you know,
Speaker 3: they increased the yeah learner experience from a three point
Speaker 3: three out of five to four point six out of
Speaker 3: five when they adopted us, because they actually want to
Speaker 3: show how people are engaging with that content and they
Speaker 3: are going, Okay, Tim, skip through the first three questions
Speaker 3: the second.
Speaker 2: I can't do that either.
Speaker 3: I can see he got the multichoice questions wrong six times.
Speaker 2: In a row and hopefully not but you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's a it's an opportunity to enhance that design,
Speaker 3: but it's also an opportunity to go back to the
Speaker 3: business and go, hey, look you've just you've just invested
Speaker 3: in us, to invest in our people, and here's their
Speaker 3: return on investment. I want to return on investments really
Speaker 3: significant these todaysciate retention.
Speaker 2: Good stuff. Hey, thanks, Hey, I really appreciated your time, titling.
Speaker 2: Good luck with it all and everything, and thanks for
Speaker 2: good time. The people want to check you, check out
Speaker 2: your company.
Speaker 3: Where do they go cameleon creator dot com? Yeah, good
Speaker 3: stuff things on there then, so appreciate it.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment to wrap things up.
Speaker 2: This is news Talk, said B. It is seven and
Speaker 2: a half minutes to six.
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