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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the dow the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by News Talks ed B.

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Speaker 2: Now welcome to what we call the best of the

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Speaker 2: Laton Smith Podcast. This being the first for the holiday season,

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Speaker 2: and we look at one of the best and most

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Speaker 2: interesting interviews that we've done. Tony O'Brien. He was born

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Speaker 2: and raised in New Zealand. His life followed a fascinating path.

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Speaker 2: He worked in Australia and Britain and Canada, Hungary and

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Speaker 2: beyond in a variety of capacities. In his work, he

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Speaker 2: did not have a plan, just took advantage of opportunities

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Speaker 2: as they presented.

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Speaker 3: That was a quote.

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Speaker 2: He is intelligent, articulate and successful, but also modest. We

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Speaker 2: discuss on this particular interview us many different aspects of

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's current circumstances and issues, starting with education. Now.

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Speaker 2: This interview was played on July tenth in Podcasts two

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Speaker 2: forty six and if you like what you're here, you

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Speaker 2: might want to investigate Ant O'Brien on substack. The best

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Speaker 2: way to do it is simply to search for Ant

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Speaker 2: O'Brien or Anthony O'Brien substack and we will play the

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Speaker 2: interview right after a short break. Layton Smith Leverx is

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Speaker 2: an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. Leverix

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Speaker 2: relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin. It's

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Speaker 2: a dual action antihistamine. It has a unique nasal decongestant action.

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Speaker 2: It's fast acting for fast relief, works in under an

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Speaker 2: hour and lasts for over twenty four hours. Leveris is

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Speaker 2: a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, deals with itchy eyes,

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Speaker 2: and stops sneezing. Levericks is an antihistamine made in Switzerland

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Speaker 2: to the highest quality. So next time you're in need

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Speaker 2: of an effective antihistamine, call into the pharmacy and ask

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Speaker 2: for Leverix l e v Rix Leverix and always read

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Speaker 2: the label. Takes directed and if symptoms persist, see your

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Speaker 2: health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Anthony O'Brien otherwise known to

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Speaker 2: his family as Aunt O'Brien or Tony. If you like

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Speaker 2: ant is a writer, a thinker, a man who was

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Speaker 2: raised in New Zealand with a large family seven kids,

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Speaker 2: where they love to debate everything and taught to play ball.

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Speaker 2: Not the man educated in science and law. His career

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Speaker 2: was mostly spent outside of New Zealand in trade promotion,

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Speaker 2: manufacturing management and TVET education. It's a great pleasure to

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Speaker 2: have you on the podcast. I think it's a privilege.

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Speaker 2: Chant Oh, thank you for having me late, and it's

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Speaker 2: great to be here. You came to my attention by

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Speaker 2: a roundabout way that I won't go into, and I

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Speaker 2: was actually quite thrilled. The part that I want to

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Speaker 2: start with because it intrigues me. You did a degree

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand in the eighties in the earth sciences,

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Speaker 2: and then the following decade you did a law degree

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Speaker 2: at Sydney University. Why did you do that?

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Speaker 3: Well? Look, in the eighties when I left school, most

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Speaker 3: of my friends actually had a plan. I had a

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Speaker 3: friend who went on to be a pharmacist and other adoctor.

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Speaker 3: I really didn't know what I wanted to do, and

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Speaker 3: I also was a little bit impetuious at that point.

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Speaker 3: It's so staying in wait ketto and going to the

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Speaker 3: local university seemed like the most logical thing to do.

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Speaker 3: I was actually care taker that stage of my father's

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Speaker 3: primary school, so I was making some income from that.

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Speaker 3: So I put myself through university and started a science degree,

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Speaker 3: and I just found earth science or geology the most

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Speaker 3: fascinating of the sciences that I did, and I had

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Speaker 3: a hope of going into that field and going to

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Speaker 3: Australia where my brother had already gone ahead of me,

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Speaker 3: and he was encouraging me to do that geology study

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: So then you went and did law. Why did you

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Speaker 2: choose law?

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Speaker 3: Well, the funny thing is just let me fill in

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Speaker 3: a little bit there. When I went to Australia, it

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Speaker 3: was in the mid eighties and there was certainly no

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Speaker 3: work in geology in New Zealand. So I went to

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Speaker 3: Australia looking to work in the outback. But I loved

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Speaker 3: I loved rugby, so I was actually playing for Randwick,

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Speaker 3: trying to get into the Ramwick Seniors. They were known

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Speaker 3: as the Galloping Greens, the best rugby club in Australia

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Speaker 3: actually rugby union. This is and as much as anything

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Speaker 3: that was a pursuit that I wanted to go after

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Speaker 3: as well. But I was a Johnny could have been,

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Speaker 3: to be honest, I was never quite going to get

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Speaker 3: to the top. And I saw a job at IBM,

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Speaker 3: the computer company, in the what did they call it,

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Speaker 3: the Commonwealth Enjoyment Service window. I went in and talked

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Speaker 3: to the lady and she said, you're too qualified for that,

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Speaker 3: and I said, I don't care. It's what I want

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Speaker 3: to do. I want to join a good company. But

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Speaker 3: this enables me to practice my rugby do a lot

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Speaker 3: of fitness training. And I went along and I became

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Speaker 3: a forklift driver in the IBM Weirdhouse in Roseberry and Sydney,

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Speaker 3: and frankly, having joined IBM, my boss at the time,

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Speaker 3: Jack Black, leaned across the table and said, you've got

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Speaker 3: a job for life, because I think at that stage

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Speaker 3: IBM had never laid anyone off. And then I got

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Speaker 3: promoted from there into the city where I became an

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Speaker 3: account administrator. So I actually did that with an intention

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Speaker 3: of being an IBM for a long time. And I

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Speaker 3: have to say it was a fantastic training ground and

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Speaker 3: credible company to work for. But then they went through

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Speaker 3: their problems in the early nineties and at that stage

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Speaker 3: it kept occurring to me that science wasn't my thing,

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Speaker 3: that perhaps law was more what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 4: And I actually started a course which is part time.

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Speaker 3: What's a course through the Legal Practitioners Admission Board in Sydney, Yes,

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Speaker 3: which allowed me to It's actually a diploma in law

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Speaker 3: later not a bachelor's degree, but it's done in conjunction

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Speaker 3: with Sydney University.

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Speaker 2: Let me just tell you I did twelve months of that. Okay,

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Speaker 2: about ten years before you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well you know that it gives you the right

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Speaker 3: to become a solicitor in Australia. And when I started

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Speaker 3: that course, just through happenstance and through a friend who

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Speaker 3: i'd met as a flatmate, I saw an opportunity to

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Speaker 3: go and work for the New Zealand Trade Commission in Sydney,

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Speaker 3: just to fill in for someone for six weeks. Someone

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Speaker 3: had gone off on sick leave. After that six weeks

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Speaker 3: and I was studying law at night, they offered me

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Speaker 3: the job of locally hired Trade Commissioner and that was

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Speaker 3: the start of my career with Trade New Zealand. And

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Speaker 3: for the next I think five years, I did law

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Speaker 3: every night and did that job every day and it

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Speaker 3: was probably the hardest five years I've ever done in

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Speaker 3: my career, to be honest, because it was long, long

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Speaker 3: days and nights indeed.

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Speaker 2: And from there you went, let me run through a

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Speaker 2: list and you tell me if I'm wrong anywhere. You

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Speaker 2: became New Zealand Trade Commissioner in Sydney, New Zealand Trade

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Speaker 2: Commissioner and a Consul general in Vancouver, followed by Senior

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Speaker 2: Trade Commissioner in Europe based in London.

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Speaker 3: Correct. The only additional thing is in between. Between ninety

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Speaker 3: six and two thousand and eight, I had to come

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Speaker 3: back to New Zealand and I became an account manager

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Speaker 3: for the marine industry just after we won the America's

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Speaker 3: Cup and so I worked with what was known as

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Speaker 3: Joint Action Group back then Merrick's and the Auckland Marine

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Speaker 3: industry to assist them developed World one worldwide market.

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Speaker 4: So that was my time in New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: I had to put in that time in New Zealand

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Speaker 3: to be considered to be posted formally as a trade commissioner.

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Speaker 3: The local hires were a different thing. But then I

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Speaker 3: got posted to Vancouver in two thousand as Trade Commissioner

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Speaker 3: and Consul.

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Speaker 2: General and you ended up at one point being well

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Speaker 2: working for Fletcher's in Hungary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that's an interesting story in itself because when

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Speaker 3: I left the Senior Trade Commissioner role in London, I

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Speaker 3: was working a little bit with Fletcher's. At that stage

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Speaker 3: it was Ahi Roothing actually you probably remember that name,

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Speaker 3: and Fletcher had bought that company, and the incumbent in

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Speaker 3: Europe approached me, knowing that I was thinking about leaving,

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Speaker 3: and said, look, we are going to either acquire our

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Speaker 3: competitor or build a new manufacturing facility in Europe.

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Speaker 4: Would you be interested to lead that burning?

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Speaker 3: So I said yes, I flew down to New Zealand

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Speaker 3: interviewed with the CEO.

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Speaker 4: Of Fletcher Building at that time and.

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Speaker 3: Got the job, and so I began as a sales

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Speaker 3: and marketing manager based in London. We did try to

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Speaker 3: acquire the competitor who we also licensed the Decra tile to,

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Speaker 3: which was a company called Ikpel out of Denmark. That

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Speaker 3: fell through, and then the next step was to build

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Speaker 3: a manufacturing facility and that was initially going to be

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Speaker 3: in Slovenia, which was very attractive to me because my

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Speaker 3: wife is Croatian of heritage, but in the end, it

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Speaker 3: went to Hungary and off we went to Budapest. The

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Speaker 3: factory was built, the capex case for that was done

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and seven. The factory opened the doors

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight, just as the financial crisis hit.

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Speaker 3: So we then went into a very very difficult period

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Speaker 3: and I continued in that role for four years as

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Speaker 3: the bottom fell out of the market in Eastern Europe.

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Speaker 3: So I gained a very challenging time in my career

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Speaker 3: to be honesked, but a fascinating time time where I learned, Well.

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Speaker 2: I've also got connections in Budapest, in Hungary, okay, and

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Speaker 2: I love the place it is. So let's bring it.

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Speaker 2: Let's bring it up to the present. Came you came

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Speaker 2: back to New Zealand when your kids were hitting school

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Speaker 2: age or important school age might be the right way

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Speaker 2: to put it. Correct.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I think one of the big issues for

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Speaker 3: us in Hungary was our kids were ten, eight and

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Speaker 3: six at the time, and we were very conscious of

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Speaker 3: the issue of third culture kids. Our kids didn't have

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Speaker 3: a home base in Hungary and its language was never

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Speaker 3: going to be an easy place for them to actually

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Speaker 3: identify with as as their home. So we bought them

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Speaker 3: home and I had the opportunity at that stage to

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Speaker 3: come right back home, which I wasn't expecting at all.

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Speaker 3: But I came back to Hamilton, back to the Waycattow

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Speaker 3: Institute of Technology as a business development manager at that point,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, it was a surprising journey for me, but

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Speaker 3: I'd lost my father a few years before that, just

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Speaker 3: at the same time as the factory opened, actually, and

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Speaker 3: just made sense to come home to give the kids

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Speaker 3: a base in New Zealand, to give them a New

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Speaker 3: Zealand identity.

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Speaker 2: And the New Zealand education, because you knew from experience

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Speaker 2: how good it was, or at least that's what you thought.

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Speaker 2: You're also a board member on the Waycatto Chamber of

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Speaker 2: Commerce from twenty thirteen to twenty nineteen. I understand. So

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Speaker 2: you have been very active. You've lived a life to

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Speaker 2: this point at least that many people would be envious

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Speaker 2: of because of the travel and the different experiences involved.

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Speaker 2: So you come back to New Zealand and you put

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Speaker 2: your kids into school, and now you are apart from

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Speaker 2: it in whatever else you might be doing, having just

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Speaker 2: turned sixty last weekend. By the way, you you have

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Speaker 2: taken up substack writing and this this is what in

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Speaker 2: part caught my attention, and you discovered your writing. You're

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Speaker 2: writing specifically on kids and education at this point, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know where you might continue on and go

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Speaker 2: to with your writing. But at this particular point of time,

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Speaker 2: are you almost obsessed, if I may say, with the

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Speaker 2: education system or the lack of education system in this country.

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Speaker 2: How did you how did you become well? Can I

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Speaker 2: read this? Let me let me, let me read this.

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Speaker 2: We enrolled our son in a very well regarded country

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Speaker 2: school in the Waikato four years after we returned home.

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Speaker 2: When my son was then in his second year at

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Speaker 2: high school, what I used to know was form four.

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Speaker 2: We were shocked when he said one night, we are

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Speaker 2: finally doing maths equivalent to what I did in year

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Speaker 2: six in Budapest. Clearly we had not been paying attention.

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Speaker 2: I was genuinely shocked, and I'm surprised. Why weren't you

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Speaker 2: paying more attention? I have to ask, well, that is

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Speaker 2: a good question. I mean, I just had assumed that

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Speaker 2: he was learning more.

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Speaker 3: And I think one of the reasons it's difficult to

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Speaker 3: discern that is that the reporting in the New Zealand

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Speaker 3: education system is so opaque you almost need a degree

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Speaker 3: to understand the progress of children. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 3: our son told me that that I started to really think, well,

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Speaker 3: hold on what's going on here. It became even more

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Speaker 3: apparent with my younger two because they had had less

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Speaker 3: time in that system in Hungary, in the International British

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Speaker 3: School in Hungary, and I began to realize that they

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Speaker 3: didn't have any knowledge. They didn't know about things and

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Speaker 3: and so that's when I did start to really start

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Speaker 3: to investigate it. I was working obviously at the Waycatto

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Speaker 3: Institute of Technology at that point and was seeing almost

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Speaker 3: as zealous attachment to inquiry based learning. But I then

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Speaker 3: began to realize that this was right through the system

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Speaker 3: and the imparting of knowledge to our kids wasn't happening

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Speaker 3: as it had happened in Buterpest.

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Speaker 2: Did you at any stage regret returning home?

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Speaker 3: I did it, to be honest. I came back to

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Speaker 3: the education system here thinking that I could add a

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Speaker 3: lot of value and I found that I had to

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Speaker 3: button my lip.

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Speaker 4: So that was the first thing.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the time I think my views and

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Speaker 3: someone who will state their views, but you are in

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Speaker 3: a position where you have to sometimes run with the

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Speaker 3: narrative or risk risk your job. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: a big problem in New Zealand. I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of people know that the education system is not working

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Speaker 3: that well, but they're scared to speak up. It's also

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Speaker 3: a very hard journey to come back to your own

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Speaker 3: country after the life we have lived. They say it's

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Speaker 3: the hardest journey for the expact to come home. But

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Speaker 3: on the other hand, look, I deeply believe in this country.

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Speaker 3: I've worked for a long time for this country, and

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Speaker 3: I still believe we can turn this around. And so

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Speaker 3: I'm here and I intend to stay here, and I

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Speaker 3: intend to keep banging this drum about education, although I

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Speaker 3: do want to write about other things as well. Last

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Speaker 3: and I've got a fairly eclectic set of interests.

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Speaker 2: At the age, at the age of sixty, are you

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Speaker 2: still interested in the gainful employment?

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Speaker 3: That's the big question at the moment. I've set myself

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Speaker 3: up as Tony O'Brien consulting. I think some of my

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Speaker 3: views may make it difficult for me to be employed

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Speaker 3: by some groups. But I think if people genuinely want

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Speaker 3: to have a robust debate about how where we head

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Speaker 3: as a society. Then you know I'm very keen to

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Speaker 3: add my two pennies worth and support that endeavor.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I look, I'd like to work, but I'm not.

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Speaker 3: Likely at this stage to go back into the corporate culture,

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Speaker 3: into a corporate in New Zealand. At least overseas it

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Speaker 3: might be a different story. My kids have all left

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Speaker 3: home now. My youngest is now at Canterbury University doing engineering,

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Speaker 3: and the other tour off at Otaga University, both studying,

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Speaker 3: so you know there's an opportunity again now too.

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Speaker 2: May I ask what they're studying.

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Speaker 3: Well, my son's doing an honors in law alongside a

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Speaker 3: BA where he's doing the classic politics, philosophy and economics,

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Speaker 3: the old Ppe degree that.

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Speaker 4: Oxford run and Otarge offer that.

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Speaker 3: So he's doing very well and has just picked up

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Speaker 3: an internship with Mentor Allison for the summer. My daughter

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Speaker 3: was a very good dancer, did a year at the

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Speaker 3: New Zealand School of Dance, but she's quite an academic

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Speaker 3: as well and she's decided that she wants to go

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Speaker 3: down that path.

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Speaker 4: So after a year at the New Zealand School of dance.

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Speaker 3: She started this year at Otago doing a BA with

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Speaker 3: a major in psychology and philosophy. Are you concerned about

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Speaker 3: the target, I'm concerned about all of our universities, to

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Speaker 3: be honest, I think the prevailing view of all the

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Speaker 3: university vice chancellors is concerning. I'm not sure where they head.

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Speaker 3: They've got financial issues. The loss of the international students

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Speaker 3: and we haven't an unlikely to pick up the numbers

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Speaker 3: that we had in the past is going to be

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Speaker 3: difficult for them from a fiscal perspective. But the fact

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Speaker 3: that they run with this postmodernist sort of view and

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Speaker 3: the identity politics that are being expressed by these universities

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Speaker 3: really concerns me because there should be bastions of free speech.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I was reading Jonathan Ailing's latest or

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Speaker 3: one of his latest emails that came out I followed

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Speaker 3: the Free Speech Union, and he was commenting on the

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Speaker 3: fact that the vice chancellor of Victoria literally went out

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Speaker 3: to his academics and asked for information on Ailing and

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Speaker 3: or doctor Michael Johnson, who's of the New Zealand Initiative,

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Speaker 3: as examples of their racism, so that he could potentially

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Speaker 3: cancel them from the event that was to occur at

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Speaker 3: that university. This is an anathema and it's unbelievable that

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Speaker 3: that should have happened in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Well, Michael Johnson, of course was at Victoria University before

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Speaker 2: he joined the initiative, which is wasn't that long back,

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Speaker 2: so that in itself was surprising when you said it.

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Speaker 2: The reason I'm interested in it is because my son

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Speaker 2: went through and did a course fairy similar to yours

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Speaker 2: with law and arts. And if it was now that

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Speaker 2: he was wanting to go to Otigo, I wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: paying the bills.

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Speaker 3: Wow, okay, And why why do you feel that way.

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Speaker 2: Particularly precisely for the for the for the reasons that

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Speaker 2: you gave only only probably extended ones. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 2: the new, the new the new vice chancellor is I

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Speaker 2: mean seriously, someone someone who helped destroy the country financially

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Speaker 2: is now going to run a university can be a break.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is this is a problem that we've experienced

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Speaker 3: the New Zealand before. There's there's various people being put

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Speaker 3: into positions from having been in political power and and

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Speaker 3: it isn't an issue where the person has the requisite experience,

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Speaker 3: but Grant Robinson is you know, he's a politician, but

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Speaker 3: I'm not convinced he has the background or experience to

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Speaker 3: be to be a vice chancellor. But it seems latent

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Speaker 3: that you know, meritocracy is the thing that is sadly

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Speaker 3: lacking here. We've seen so many examples in New Zealand

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Speaker 3: where people are appointed into positions not because they actually

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Speaker 3: are the best person for the role, but because they

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Speaker 3: fit some sort of identity characteristic that is required. And

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Speaker 3: that may not seem like a major problem initially, and

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm the first one to sort of believe

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Speaker 3: that we do need to have role models from all

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Speaker 3: areas of our society in various jobs. But when it

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Speaker 3: becomes a situation where a person's merit is not considered

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Speaker 3: and someone is appointed simply on the basis of their identity,

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Speaker 3: You're going to see a situation over time where that

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Speaker 3: lack of confidence in so many different parts of the country,

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Speaker 3: in so many different institutions, starts to lead to poor

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Speaker 3: decision making and starts to lead to the failure of

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Speaker 3: the economy. And it's something that New Zealanders should be

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Speaker 3: really concerned about. We have the talent in this country

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Speaker 3: to run the place well, but we may not have

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Speaker 3: the right people running the place.

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Speaker 2: Do we have the talent to run the place well?

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Speaker 2: And I asked that question based on the number of

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Speaker 2: flights leaving the country full of full of those people.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's a real question, you know, that's a really

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Speaker 4: good question.

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Speaker 3: I think it is a big concern that we educate

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Speaker 3: people here. As you say the education system is changing.

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Speaker 3: They have the same concerns that you do. But then

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Speaker 3: our best and brightest go and where they used to

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Speaker 3: come back, I'm not sure they will in the future.

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Speaker 3: And I think you interviewed Stephen Jennings at some point

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Speaker 3: in an earlier podcast and he was saying similar things.

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Speaker 3: I think he was saying similar things about education actually

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Speaker 3: that he was really concerned for New Zealand. So I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure that we will have the capacity of New

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Speaker 3: Zealand going forward.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me put it this way to you. You

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Speaker 2: have the ability and the capacity and the ground to

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Speaker 2: involve yourself, if if, if you could in the areas

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Speaker 2: that you're concerned about and to and to give gift

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Speaker 2: your talent and knowledge and history to help develop what

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Speaker 2: we might consider a successful contemporary system of education. Except

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Speaker 2: you can't because they don't want you.

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Speaker 3: Well, that remains to be seen. But I suspect you're right.

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Speaker 3: I get the feeling that when I've spoken, I'm not

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Speaker 3: speaking in the right narrative. So yeah, they there's a

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Speaker 3: danger that people like me start to withdraw. And that's

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Speaker 3: how I feel a little bit. It's like, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 3: not not going to be heard, so what's the point?

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Speaker 3: And it's it's it's very disappointing because I do look

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Speaker 3: at my experience and I sometimes wonder, what on what's

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Speaker 3: going on here? Why is my view someone who's been

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Speaker 3: in these roles around the world. I've worked both in

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Speaker 3: senior management and in trade promotion for the country. I

393
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Speaker 3: understand how our export sectors work, and yet I understand

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Speaker 3: how the education system works. I've got a science degree

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Speaker 3: at a law qualification, but I'm just not the right

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Speaker 3: age or color to be appointed into certain roles.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now there's more than that, but I want to

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Speaker 2: go back to this. This is the first article you wrote,

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Speaker 2: as far as some aware, the problem statement, basically laying

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Speaker 2: out your approach to education in New Zealand and where

401
00:23:41,173 --> 00:23:45,773
Speaker 2: you see it faulty and praising some people who deserve

402
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Speaker 2: to be recognized more than they are, and I pick

403
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Speaker 2: it up. Firstly, our teachers are taught to adhere almost

404
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Speaker 2: religiously to what is known as constructivism, even social constructivism,

405
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Speaker 2: which is rolled out under the term student centered learning.

406
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Speaker 2: To be sure, constructivism is or as posited by Jen Pierge,

407
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Speaker 2: has its merits, but it needs to be tempered by

408
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Speaker 2: other pedagogical styles. As my father would have said, to

409
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Speaker 2: teach a child, you need to do what it takes.

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Speaker 3: And you go on.

411
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Speaker 2: Erica Stanford, the new Minister of Education, has listened and

412
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Speaker 2: seems to be adopting many of the recommendations put by

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Speaker 2: the New Zealand Initiative in this space. She's pushing, for example,

414
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Speaker 2: the use of explicit instruction in the form of structured literacy.

415
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Speaker 2: Fancy that in helping children to read, she is to

416
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Speaker 2: be commended, but she needs to be supported. Again, as

417
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Speaker 2: you've made mention of this organization listening to Radio New Zealand,

418
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Speaker 2: the pushback has already started, and you go on to

419
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Speaker 2: encourage all in Sundry to back Erica Stanford and give

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Speaker 2: her support. Have you met with her?

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Speaker 3: No? I have not. Actually I did have a teleconference

422
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Speaker 3: one night prior to the election with some people, and

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Speaker 3: I think Erica might have been on that call, and

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Speaker 3: that was through my association with the Wakado Chamber of Commerce,

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Speaker 3: which i'd left by that stage as a director. But

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Speaker 3: there are people within the Chamber who think my views

427
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Speaker 3: need to be further heard. But I'd love to do so.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to talk to her about this because I

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Speaker 3: think at the end of the day, you know there

430
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Speaker 3: is a place. Jean Pierreet when he said children are scientists,

431
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Speaker 3: is right. They are very good. We all humans have

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Speaker 3: an inate ability to problem solve. We learn how to

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Speaker 3: talk without being sent to school. But John Sweller talks

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Speaker 3: about biological secondary information, not primary information, but secondary information

435
00:25:52,613 --> 00:25:54,973
Speaker 3: that we will only learn if we go to school,

436
00:25:55,413 --> 00:25:58,853
Speaker 3: and the idea that we need to discover these things

437
00:25:58,853 --> 00:26:02,853
Speaker 3: for ourselves to that all the best learning happens when

438
00:26:02,933 --> 00:26:06,333
Speaker 3: students discover things. Tends to come from almost a counseling

439
00:26:06,413 --> 00:26:09,333
Speaker 3: view of the world that you have insight and we

440
00:26:09,373 --> 00:26:12,053
Speaker 3: all do. But the fact of the matter is you

441
00:26:12,133 --> 00:26:16,173
Speaker 3: can't discover something if you're ignorant, not of the world's knowledge.

442
00:26:16,413 --> 00:26:20,653
Speaker 3: And a classical traditional education of the past ironically the

443
00:26:20,693 --> 00:26:22,693
Speaker 3: sort of education that the people who are making the

444
00:26:22,733 --> 00:26:24,373
Speaker 3: decisions in Willington today.

445
00:26:24,173 --> 00:26:27,133
Speaker 4: Got but are now denying to the younger folk.

446
00:26:28,013 --> 00:26:32,613
Speaker 3: Gives people information and once you have knowledge, as Ed

447
00:26:32,733 --> 00:26:39,613
Speaker 3: hirsh An American educational psychologist says, knowledge begets knowledge. Another one,

448
00:26:39,693 --> 00:26:43,853
Speaker 3: Dan Willingham, who's a great educational psychologist out of I

449
00:26:43,853 --> 00:26:47,333
Speaker 3: Think Michigan. He talks about the fact that teaching knowledge

450
00:26:47,693 --> 00:26:53,933
Speaker 3: is teaching reading because you need knowledge to disambiguate what

451
00:26:53,973 --> 00:26:57,173
Speaker 3: you might be reading and understand it. So you start

452
00:26:57,213 --> 00:27:00,333
Speaker 3: from the basics, you build, and then you start to

453
00:27:00,373 --> 00:27:05,253
Speaker 3: become creative and critical in your thinking once you have knowledge.

454
00:27:06,133 --> 00:27:11,453
Speaker 3: Critical thinking as a skill doesn't make sense. It's not

455
00:27:11,613 --> 00:27:17,093
Speaker 3: something you can teach. It's innate. But once you situate

456
00:27:17,133 --> 00:27:21,293
Speaker 3: that critical thinking in a domain, then you can critically think.

457
00:27:22,053 --> 00:27:25,893
Speaker 3: It's actually hard latent to transfer critical thinking across domains.

458
00:27:26,973 --> 00:27:30,293
Speaker 3: A doctor can critically think about the illness of a patient,

459
00:27:30,773 --> 00:27:33,093
Speaker 3: but if he doesn't know anything about engine, he can

460
00:27:33,133 --> 00:27:35,133
Speaker 3: stand there in the front of his engine and you

461
00:27:35,213 --> 00:27:37,613
Speaker 3: won't have a hope in hell of critically thinking about

462
00:27:37,613 --> 00:27:40,733
Speaker 3: what's wrong with the engine unless he has the knowledge

463
00:27:40,813 --> 00:27:43,533
Speaker 3: of how that engine operates. And yet we in New

464
00:27:43,613 --> 00:27:45,453
Speaker 3: Zealand seem to think that kids are going to go

465
00:27:45,493 --> 00:27:49,013
Speaker 3: to school and sit in front of in a group

466
00:27:49,093 --> 00:27:55,053
Speaker 3: and discover the knowledge because the primary thing seems to

467
00:27:55,053 --> 00:28:00,173
Speaker 3: be engagement. Now, look, engagement is important, there's no question,

468
00:28:00,413 --> 00:28:04,413
Speaker 3: you know, you really do want to engage kids in learning.

469
00:28:05,173 --> 00:28:08,693
Speaker 3: But look, if I refer to the Machays skill in

470
00:28:08,733 --> 00:28:13,653
Speaker 3: London and wonderful principal there, I can't remember. I think

471
00:28:13,693 --> 00:28:19,413
Speaker 3: Catherine berber Berbersing. You know, she explains that they in

472
00:28:19,533 --> 00:28:22,893
Speaker 3: part knowledge to these inner city London kids and the

473
00:28:22,973 --> 00:28:27,253
Speaker 3: kids lap it up. They like to be taught. And

474
00:28:27,293 --> 00:28:29,653
Speaker 3: I can't imagine that it's any different in New Zealand

475
00:28:29,693 --> 00:28:31,973
Speaker 3: that children want to learn.

476
00:28:33,493 --> 00:28:37,053
Speaker 2: Have you have you? Have you come across a school

477
00:28:37,093 --> 00:28:42,773
Speaker 2: in Sydney a Liverpool called the Marsdian Road Primary School No.

478
00:28:43,893 --> 00:28:47,093
Speaker 2: About a month ago, five weeks maybe I interviewed the

479
00:28:47,653 --> 00:28:53,813
Speaker 2: headmaster or mistress if you like. The principal Miniesha Grizzoola

480
00:28:54,973 --> 00:29:00,573
Speaker 2: born in India, and she has adopted pretty much the

481
00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,573
Speaker 2: same approach as the as the London school you referenced,

482
00:29:03,853 --> 00:29:06,533
Speaker 2: and that principle. I don't know whether she I don't

483
00:29:06,613 --> 00:29:08,813
Speaker 2: think she stole it from them. She grew up in

484
00:29:10,813 --> 00:29:13,573
Speaker 2: much of a younger life was spent in India, and

485
00:29:13,613 --> 00:29:19,013
Speaker 2: she learned things for herself. And she has run this

486
00:29:19,133 --> 00:29:25,173
Speaker 2: school in that manner, and the school's rankings, the results

487
00:29:25,813 --> 00:29:28,773
Speaker 2: have gone through the roof. I can imagine and guess

488
00:29:28,773 --> 00:29:33,853
Speaker 2: what while she's still there and an operating, there's concern

489
00:29:33,973 --> 00:29:36,693
Speaker 2: in the system that this might be catching.

490
00:29:38,253 --> 00:29:41,293
Speaker 3: You were why is that late? And why why are

491
00:29:41,293 --> 00:29:44,693
Speaker 3: people scared of our children understanding the knowledge of the world.

492
00:29:44,973 --> 00:29:47,053
Speaker 2: Well, I think we both know the answer, and so

493
00:29:47,133 --> 00:29:50,533
Speaker 2: do I think most people who listening, and there are

494
00:29:50,573 --> 00:29:54,693
Speaker 2: other there are other alternatives that are preferred. As a

495
00:29:54,973 --> 00:29:58,733
Speaker 2: simple way to put it. Let me move on to

496
00:29:59,333 --> 00:30:02,573
Speaker 2: because you've written I think eight articles so far on

497
00:30:02,613 --> 00:30:06,053
Speaker 2: the substeact. Now I don't know which ones you think

498
00:30:06,293 --> 00:30:09,693
Speaker 2: are the most important. I will make mention of the

499
00:30:10,453 --> 00:30:13,493
Speaker 2: teaching kids to love reading, but I think I think

500
00:30:13,533 --> 00:30:18,573
Speaker 2: that that that has become fairly fairly obvious. And it's

501
00:30:18,613 --> 00:30:22,453
Speaker 2: the shortest one of all. It's it's two pages, whereas

502
00:30:22,453 --> 00:30:26,013
Speaker 2: you're writing others like too much zeal for co construction

503
00:30:26,093 --> 00:30:30,133
Speaker 2: in New Zealand classrooms is nine pages, and there's a

504
00:30:30,453 --> 00:30:33,893
Speaker 2: couple more that are at least that long. So what

505
00:30:34,013 --> 00:30:35,773
Speaker 2: did you what did you move on? Just give us

506
00:30:35,773 --> 00:30:40,093
Speaker 2: an outline of what you were saying in article number two,

507
00:30:40,173 --> 00:30:41,213
Speaker 2: Too Much zeal.

508
00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:44,413
Speaker 3: Well, this goes back to this issue that we've been

509
00:30:44,453 --> 00:30:49,213
Speaker 3: talking about. That's I guess a good place to start

510
00:30:49,213 --> 00:30:51,933
Speaker 3: with us is my role at win Tech. I was

511
00:30:51,973 --> 00:30:56,253
Speaker 3: bringing teachers from China down to New Zealand to show

512
00:30:56,533 --> 00:31:00,333
Speaker 3: them how we teach in our polytechnics. And if you

513
00:31:00,413 --> 00:31:03,653
Speaker 3: think about education as being on a continuum, at one

514
00:31:03,773 --> 00:31:08,053
Speaker 3: end a road based learning instruction and didact what we

515
00:31:08,133 --> 00:31:11,333
Speaker 3: call didactic learning, and at the other end being you know,

516
00:31:11,693 --> 00:31:16,253
Speaker 3: discovery or inquiry based learning, which is based on construction

517
00:31:16,453 --> 00:31:20,053
Speaker 3: or in the New Zealand model, social constructivism, a sort

518
00:31:20,093 --> 00:31:22,773
Speaker 3: of a diological approach to teaching.

519
00:31:23,973 --> 00:31:26,893
Speaker 4: The Chinese were in our way up the.

520
00:31:27,413 --> 00:31:30,853
Speaker 3: One end of that system, the didactic rope based learning,

521
00:31:31,333 --> 00:31:35,453
Speaker 3: and we very want to criticize the Chinese for this,

522
00:31:35,653 --> 00:31:37,733
Speaker 3: that there's no imagination in their students.

523
00:31:41,453 --> 00:31:43,773
Speaker 4: Bringing these teachers down from China.

524
00:31:43,573 --> 00:31:48,533
Speaker 3: We were impressing upon them the importance of getting students

525
00:31:48,613 --> 00:31:53,693
Speaker 3: to think for themselves. But what I started to see

526
00:31:53,893 --> 00:31:57,573
Speaker 3: was as these Chinese teachers were here, they started to

527
00:31:57,773 --> 00:32:01,013
Speaker 3: ask questions about but you know how these students don't

528
00:32:01,013 --> 00:32:05,773
Speaker 3: seem to know stuff. And eventually I got onto a

529
00:32:05,813 --> 00:32:09,693
Speaker 3: discussion with some pretty senior people and who took the

530
00:32:09,773 --> 00:32:14,373
Speaker 3: view that New Zealand's gone too far. They they will

531
00:32:14,813 --> 00:32:20,853
Speaker 3: absolutely introduced some inquiry based learning, project based learning into

532
00:32:20,893 --> 00:32:25,213
Speaker 3: their into their education system, and there's a place for it.

533
00:32:25,413 --> 00:32:28,333
Speaker 3: But to do that without first and parting the knowledge

534
00:32:28,373 --> 00:32:30,453
Speaker 3: just doesn't make sense. And this is this is where

535
00:32:30,533 --> 00:32:32,693
Speaker 3: New Zealand it seems to have gone wrong. It's what

536
00:32:32,693 --> 00:32:35,413
Speaker 3: what doctor Michael Johnston and others are picking up on.

537
00:32:36,493 --> 00:32:40,973
Speaker 3: I think I refer to John Sweller earlier. Also, both

538
00:32:41,333 --> 00:32:43,813
Speaker 3: these gentlemen are talking about the fact that you know,

539
00:32:44,133 --> 00:32:47,973
Speaker 3: the when you learn to discover it all yourself is

540
00:32:47,973 --> 00:32:50,373
Speaker 3: a very very inefficient way to go about it.

541
00:32:50,933 --> 00:32:55,373
Speaker 4: When when you're taught knowledge, when you actually are young

542
00:32:55,413 --> 00:32:58,213
Speaker 4: and you've given that knowledge, it gives you the basis

543
00:32:58,733 --> 00:33:02,853
Speaker 4: to be creative and critical in your thinking in the future.

544
00:33:03,533 --> 00:33:06,853
Speaker 4: And we've just lost that we and I believe we've

545
00:33:06,853 --> 00:33:09,293
Speaker 4: lost it partly because they seem to be an ideology

546
00:33:09,333 --> 00:33:15,653
Speaker 4: around you know, the knowledge that's come from the age

547
00:33:15,653 --> 00:33:20,573
Speaker 4: of reason, the knowledge that's come from the enlightenment, which

548
00:33:20,613 --> 00:33:24,133
Speaker 4: ironically is the sort of knowledge that has actually enabled

549
00:33:24,373 --> 00:33:29,373
Speaker 4: modern states. Modern liberty has freed women from the chains

550
00:33:29,413 --> 00:33:33,213
Speaker 4: of servitude, allowed them to enter the education system, and

551
00:33:33,293 --> 00:33:36,333
Speaker 4: yet the flood of women into education in the late

552
00:33:36,773 --> 00:33:43,613
Speaker 4: nineties and then their tendency to latch onto postmodernism, which

553
00:33:43,693 --> 00:33:50,613
Speaker 4: rejects objectivity, rejects any sort of objective morality, and rejects

554
00:33:50,653 --> 00:33:54,053
Speaker 4: the patriarchy in the Western system. I think this is

555
00:33:54,093 --> 00:33:58,933
Speaker 4: where it's sort of the ideology combines with the concept

556
00:33:58,973 --> 00:34:03,813
Speaker 4: of co construction to cancel out any teaching of the

557
00:34:03,893 --> 00:34:07,133
Speaker 4: knowledge of the West. And that's a real problem because

558
00:34:07,173 --> 00:34:12,613
Speaker 4: you know, whether it's Newton or Galileo or Descartes or

559
00:34:12,733 --> 00:34:18,653
Speaker 4: Hugh or Adam Smith, these thinkers have changed our world.

560
00:34:18,973 --> 00:34:22,413
Speaker 4: And you know, if you listen to someone like Stephen Pinker,

561
00:34:24,453 --> 00:34:26,413
Speaker 4: he will talk about the fact that our world is

562
00:34:26,453 --> 00:34:28,413
Speaker 4: a far far better place than it was in the

563
00:34:28,453 --> 00:34:29,453
Speaker 4: seventeenth century.

564
00:34:29,573 --> 00:34:33,573
Speaker 3: There's far less violence, there's far more opportunity for people.

565
00:34:33,613 --> 00:34:37,333
Speaker 3: And although the West has benefited from that more than most,

566
00:34:38,093 --> 00:34:41,133
Speaker 3: until recently the rest of the world was starting to

567
00:34:41,133 --> 00:34:44,973
Speaker 3: catch up, which Laiden goes to insure around you know,

568
00:34:45,053 --> 00:34:48,333
Speaker 3: globalization that I would like to talk about if we could,

569
00:34:48,373 --> 00:34:52,133
Speaker 3: but because we're heading into a period of deglobalization away

570
00:34:52,173 --> 00:34:53,053
Speaker 3: from free trade.

571
00:34:53,333 --> 00:34:55,093
Speaker 4: And I know I'm going off on a tangent here,

572
00:34:55,133 --> 00:34:57,253
Speaker 4: but I think it's very dangerous.

573
00:34:56,813 --> 00:35:00,333
Speaker 3: For the world. But look, coming back to this issue

574
00:35:00,493 --> 00:35:05,773
Speaker 3: of too much zeal. There's why I'm saying that is

575
00:35:05,693 --> 00:35:08,653
Speaker 3: anybody who sort of says, why don't we get kids

576
00:35:08,653 --> 00:35:11,813
Speaker 3: to do a bit of drilling on the Times table

577
00:35:12,013 --> 00:35:15,893
Speaker 3: or on history, why don't we impart this information, you

578
00:35:15,933 --> 00:35:18,013
Speaker 3: tend to sort of get looked at as if you're

579
00:35:18,333 --> 00:35:21,453
Speaker 3: talking some strange sort of language, like why would we

580
00:35:21,493 --> 00:35:27,373
Speaker 3: do that? But I think underneath that as an ideology.

581
00:35:26,253 --> 00:35:28,013
Speaker 2: How would you describe that ideology?

582
00:35:30,453 --> 00:35:35,773
Speaker 3: It's definitely coming from a Marxist base. It's kind of

583
00:35:35,773 --> 00:35:39,173
Speaker 3: a Marxism rolled into postmodernism. And you mean you hear

584
00:35:39,253 --> 00:35:44,093
Speaker 3: that the education departments or universities they're big fans of

585
00:35:44,613 --> 00:35:46,853
Speaker 3: fo Co and a writer and all of these.

586
00:35:46,653 --> 00:35:50,413
Speaker 4: Thinkers who see everything in terms of power.

587
00:35:51,893 --> 00:35:57,133
Speaker 2: And you mean like the you mean like the Democrat Party.

588
00:35:57,733 --> 00:36:04,773
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, the American political system is beyond my comprehension.

589
00:36:04,813 --> 00:36:07,213
Speaker 3: To be honest, I can't quite believe we've got a

590
00:36:07,253 --> 00:36:13,893
Speaker 3: situation where to you know, geriatric candidates are running for

591
00:36:13,933 --> 00:36:15,813
Speaker 3: power in a country where there's three hundred and fifty

592
00:36:15,813 --> 00:36:18,973
Speaker 3: million people. But certainly the Democrats seem to have lost

593
00:36:19,013 --> 00:36:25,733
Speaker 3: their minds and the Republican Party has lost its mojo.

594
00:36:25,933 --> 00:36:28,213
Speaker 3: It's been taken over by Trump. For whatever you think

595
00:36:28,253 --> 00:36:31,573
Speaker 3: of Trump, he now owns that party, and I think

596
00:36:31,573 --> 00:36:37,173
Speaker 3: they're in a mess as well. So yeah, I sound conscious,

597
00:36:37,173 --> 00:36:39,413
Speaker 3: I'm sounding a bit negative on everything, but it is.

598
00:36:39,493 --> 00:36:42,213
Speaker 3: It is a very challenging environment over there.

599
00:36:42,293 --> 00:36:44,453
Speaker 2: I'm not responding to you because I have an idea

600
00:36:44,493 --> 00:36:49,253
Speaker 2: and I will explain it before we conclude the other

601
00:36:49,373 --> 00:36:53,293
Speaker 2: articles that you've written, of those which to you are

602
00:36:52,853 --> 00:36:56,853
Speaker 2: the most relevant for our purposes, Oh.

603
00:36:56,733 --> 00:36:58,373
Speaker 3: Look, they're all They're all relevant. I think.

604
00:36:58,493 --> 00:37:02,733
Speaker 4: I think you say that the just very quickly.

605
00:37:02,613 --> 00:37:05,773
Speaker 3: On the modern learning environments or the innovative learning environments,

606
00:37:05,853 --> 00:37:08,253
Speaker 3: that the amount of money that's been spent on this

607
00:37:08,373 --> 00:37:10,693
Speaker 3: country creating barns that are going to be very difficult

608
00:37:10,693 --> 00:37:14,813
Speaker 3: for children to learn in is just astonishing. Going back

609
00:37:14,853 --> 00:37:18,813
Speaker 3: to John Sweller, his theory around cognitive load suggests that

610
00:37:20,013 --> 00:37:24,973
Speaker 3: two really critical things. One that our working memory is

611
00:37:25,053 --> 00:37:29,013
Speaker 3: limited in its capacity. But if you have information loaded

612
00:37:29,053 --> 00:37:32,933
Speaker 3: into your long term memory, then you can easily access

613
00:37:33,013 --> 00:37:37,173
Speaker 3: that back into your working memory without too much cognitive load.

614
00:37:39,213 --> 00:37:41,813
Speaker 3: Other things that can put cognitive load on the working memory.

615
00:37:42,013 --> 00:37:45,253
Speaker 2: Give us story, just give us a definition of cognitive load.

616
00:37:46,173 --> 00:37:49,253
Speaker 3: So you know, the minds and the mind's an amazing thing,

617
00:37:49,293 --> 00:37:51,853
Speaker 3: and some of these things are sort of illustrative of

618
00:37:51,933 --> 00:37:54,533
Speaker 3: how it works rather than actually how it works. But

619
00:37:55,173 --> 00:37:57,853
Speaker 3: in the you have it. You have a working memory

620
00:37:57,853 --> 00:38:02,333
Speaker 3: where the work is done, where an executive the executive

621
00:38:02,413 --> 00:38:05,013
Speaker 3: level your brain is operating. And then in your long

622
00:38:05,093 --> 00:38:07,813
Speaker 3: term memory, where we've got a lot of memory stored

623
00:38:07,813 --> 00:38:12,373
Speaker 3: in our brains, that the working memory can access that

624
00:38:12,413 --> 00:38:15,893
Speaker 3: long term memory, so that the load he's talking about

625
00:38:15,933 --> 00:38:19,453
Speaker 3: is in the executive functionary, in the executive function, in

626
00:38:19,493 --> 00:38:24,493
Speaker 3: the working memory. When it comes to distraction, sorry, when

627
00:38:24,493 --> 00:38:27,013
Speaker 3: it comes to the modern learning environments, one of the

628
00:38:27,013 --> 00:38:32,173
Speaker 3: problems that they create is the noise and the visual

629
00:38:32,213 --> 00:38:35,333
Speaker 3: distraction of so many children in a modern learning environment

630
00:38:35,373 --> 00:38:40,013
Speaker 3: actually adds to cognitive load, which is a problem because

631
00:38:40,453 --> 00:38:43,893
Speaker 3: it does then overwhelm a child, and particularly children with

632
00:38:44,653 --> 00:38:48,933
Speaker 3: problems like ADHD, they just can't handle that environment. And

633
00:38:48,973 --> 00:38:52,813
Speaker 3: I also suspect the teachers find it extremely difficult.

634
00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:54,893
Speaker 4: To handle the environment of being in a room with.

635
00:38:54,853 --> 00:38:57,933
Speaker 3: Sixty kids all day long, all competing for their attention

636
00:38:58,613 --> 00:39:02,373
Speaker 3: and in a discovery based mode, not listening to them,

637
00:39:02,413 --> 00:39:04,133
Speaker 3: but being told to get on and do things and

638
00:39:04,173 --> 00:39:04,933
Speaker 3: work in groups.

639
00:39:05,613 --> 00:39:08,893
Speaker 4: So anyway, the point there is is that.

640
00:39:10,253 --> 00:39:15,133
Speaker 3: There's been a lot of money spent building these monolithic

641
00:39:15,173 --> 00:39:20,013
Speaker 3: structures that align with the discovery based learning model, which

642
00:39:20,613 --> 00:39:22,773
Speaker 3: modern science says is not a good way of teaching

643
00:39:23,013 --> 00:39:27,413
Speaker 3: teaching children. In the other articles, and particularly my most

644
00:39:27,533 --> 00:39:30,573
Speaker 3: more recent articles, I'm talking about issues that go to

645
00:39:31,413 --> 00:39:34,973
Speaker 3: social media and some of the damage that's been caused.

646
00:39:35,453 --> 00:39:38,813
Speaker 3: The education industry here in New Zealand seems to think

647
00:39:38,893 --> 00:39:42,013
Speaker 3: that children need to learn how to use the technology.

648
00:39:43,213 --> 00:39:45,093
Speaker 3: Ignore the fact that most of us are aware that

649
00:39:45,133 --> 00:39:48,973
Speaker 3: our kids can actually use smartphones and iPads and most

650
00:39:49,013 --> 00:39:53,373
Speaker 3: software more insuratively as digital natives than any of us.

651
00:39:53,893 --> 00:39:55,973
Speaker 3: I don't need more time on these things. They need

652
00:39:56,013 --> 00:39:59,493
Speaker 3: to be taught the basics. So I'm a big fan

653
00:39:59,533 --> 00:40:04,093
Speaker 3: of Jonathan Height in this area his books. On His

654
00:40:04,253 --> 00:40:07,133
Speaker 3: latest book on the Anxious Mind talks about four norms

655
00:40:07,333 --> 00:40:09,053
Speaker 3: which I wrote about us.

656
00:40:11,773 --> 00:40:14,533
Speaker 4: Adopting if we could in one of my more recent.

657
00:40:14,333 --> 00:40:17,333
Speaker 3: Articles, and he's those four norms that he's talking about

658
00:40:17,373 --> 00:40:21,613
Speaker 3: are no no smart phones before high school, no phones

659
00:40:21,733 --> 00:40:27,773
Speaker 3: at school, no social media before sixteen, and more independent

660
00:40:27,853 --> 00:40:32,493
Speaker 3: and free played out in the real world. He cites

661
00:40:33,253 --> 00:40:36,773
Speaker 3: research that shows that the average, not not some teenagers,

662
00:40:36,813 --> 00:40:39,933
Speaker 3: the average teenager in America spends nine hours a day

663
00:40:39,973 --> 00:40:44,853
Speaker 3: on social media. To believe it is hard to believe,

664
00:40:45,053 --> 00:40:48,693
Speaker 3: but not not when you've seen teenagers playing video games

665
00:40:48,733 --> 00:40:52,333
Speaker 3: and other things at night. But if we take that

666
00:40:52,413 --> 00:40:56,173
Speaker 3: time away from kids and redirect them into the real world,

667
00:40:56,173 --> 00:40:59,533
Speaker 3: we all have to make an effort to allow that

668
00:40:59,573 --> 00:41:02,213
Speaker 3: to happen and put the scaffolding around that to allow

669
00:41:02,253 --> 00:41:02,653
Speaker 3: that happen.

670
00:41:02,653 --> 00:41:03,533
Speaker 4: And that that goes.

671
00:41:03,333 --> 00:41:07,253
Speaker 3: Back to us acting against the community and and you know,

672
00:41:07,373 --> 00:41:09,493
Speaker 3: not being afraid to put out kids outside and say

673
00:41:09,493 --> 00:41:11,813
Speaker 3: go on your bikes. Go. You know, look at look

674
00:41:11,853 --> 00:41:14,533
Speaker 3: at the number of schools around New Zealand where it's

675
00:41:14,573 --> 00:41:17,333
Speaker 3: a bridlock to get into school because every kid is

676
00:41:17,373 --> 00:41:22,053
Speaker 3: going to school in an suv in case they get

677
00:41:22,213 --> 00:41:26,373
Speaker 3: you abducted on the streets. Well, is that is that

678
00:41:26,453 --> 00:41:28,813
Speaker 3: really going to happen? And if it is, why is

679
00:41:28,813 --> 00:41:31,613
Speaker 3: it happening? You know, have we lost our communal values

680
00:41:31,973 --> 00:41:35,253
Speaker 3: that we can't look out for each other's kids.

681
00:41:35,613 --> 00:41:37,293
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's more than that. I think there's

682
00:41:37,293 --> 00:41:42,093
Speaker 2: the danger of traffic that deserves a lot of a

683
00:41:42,133 --> 00:41:45,973
Speaker 2: lot of parents. Plus the fact that some of them,

684
00:41:46,173 --> 00:41:48,493
Speaker 2: I don't I have no idea on I can't put

685
00:41:48,493 --> 00:41:52,053
Speaker 2: a figure on it, but some of them live quite

686
00:41:52,093 --> 00:41:55,173
Speaker 2: a distance away from schools. Where where in this day

687
00:41:55,173 --> 00:41:59,253
Speaker 2: and age. Going back to the traffic scenario, it really,

688
00:41:59,373 --> 00:42:00,653
Speaker 2: it really is unnerving.

689
00:42:01,973 --> 00:42:05,413
Speaker 3: Look, I don't doubt that I and I sound somewhat disingenuous,

690
00:42:05,453 --> 00:42:09,053
Speaker 3: even to myself, because I'm guilty of this helicopter parenting myself,

691
00:42:09,333 --> 00:42:12,893
Speaker 3: and you know, and but we somehow need to convince

692
00:42:12,933 --> 00:42:16,133
Speaker 3: ourselves that and start with the small things. There's a

693
00:42:16,173 --> 00:42:18,093
Speaker 3: there's an organization that I refer to in one of

694
00:42:18,133 --> 00:42:22,413
Speaker 3: those articles called let Grow in the United States, and

695
00:42:23,973 --> 00:42:27,253
Speaker 3: they are starting to just encourage parents to do the

696
00:42:27,293 --> 00:42:29,213
Speaker 3: smallest things to get their kids to be a little

697
00:42:29,253 --> 00:42:33,213
Speaker 3: bit more independent and take take trips, go into the

698
00:42:33,213 --> 00:42:35,493
Speaker 3: shop themselves, those sort of things.

699
00:42:35,213 --> 00:42:37,453
Speaker 4: Just just to build that independence and agency.

700
00:42:38,333 --> 00:42:40,613
Speaker 3: Otherwise, you know, it may be that our kids will

701
00:42:40,653 --> 00:42:43,653
Speaker 3: get killed or injured on the roads but there's a

702
00:42:43,733 --> 00:42:46,573
Speaker 3: there's a growing suicide problem in New Zealand, which is

703
00:42:46,613 --> 00:42:51,053
Speaker 3: the tip of a mental health problem which is which

704
00:42:51,093 --> 00:42:54,053
Speaker 3: is growing rapidly. That our kids have anxiety and depression

705
00:42:54,093 --> 00:42:58,053
Speaker 3: because they've been taught by parents that the world's not safe,

706
00:42:58,693 --> 00:43:01,693
Speaker 3: that they aren't competent to go out into the world.

707
00:43:02,213 --> 00:43:04,213
Speaker 3: And we all, we all just need to be a

708
00:43:04,213 --> 00:43:09,213
Speaker 3: little bit more optimistic about our ability, our kid's ability

709
00:43:09,253 --> 00:43:11,453
Speaker 3: to cope in the world and let them go and

710
00:43:11,693 --> 00:43:15,773
Speaker 3: scrape their knees. I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you

711
00:43:15,853 --> 00:43:19,413
Speaker 3: about you know, the roads we need. We the traffic

712
00:43:19,533 --> 00:43:21,653
Speaker 3: does move fast, and so you have to be sensible.

713
00:43:22,333 --> 00:43:25,253
Speaker 3: But there are opportunities for us as a society to

714
00:43:25,893 --> 00:43:30,173
Speaker 3: collectively ensure that our children get more free and independent play.

715
00:43:30,293 --> 00:43:33,133
Speaker 2: And I agree with you completely by the way, falling

716
00:43:33,133 --> 00:43:35,493
Speaker 2: off swings and breaking your arm or something which one

717
00:43:35,493 --> 00:43:40,693
Speaker 2: of mine did, is a lesson in life exactly. And

718
00:43:40,733 --> 00:43:42,853
Speaker 2: it's not pleasant to break your arm, not that I'd know,

719
00:43:43,133 --> 00:43:47,573
Speaker 2: but by the same token, that's how you learn through experience,

720
00:43:47,933 --> 00:43:50,533
Speaker 2: and you can transfer that learning breaking your army by

721
00:43:50,573 --> 00:43:53,733
Speaker 2: being silly on a swing to other things as well.

722
00:43:54,333 --> 00:43:59,773
Speaker 2: There's something that you mentioned. That's that's triggered off a

723
00:43:59,853 --> 00:44:04,533
Speaker 2: question I had when for when I was reading and

724
00:44:04,613 --> 00:44:07,653
Speaker 2: I have read pretty much all of the articles that

725
00:44:07,733 --> 00:44:13,373
Speaker 2: you've read so far. Are our boys failing school or

726
00:44:13,493 --> 00:44:16,853
Speaker 2: are the schools failing our boys? Now, before you jump in,

727
00:44:18,013 --> 00:44:21,213
Speaker 2: the question that I that I have is the boys

728
00:44:21,253 --> 00:44:24,053
Speaker 2: are supposed to be the ones who are who are

729
00:44:24,093 --> 00:44:29,933
Speaker 2: falling behind. But when it comes to social media and

730
00:44:31,733 --> 00:44:35,253
Speaker 2: the influence that it has, the influence is far greater

731
00:44:35,373 --> 00:44:39,333
Speaker 2: on girls that negatively on that it is on boys.

732
00:44:40,013 --> 00:44:43,973
Speaker 2: And I can't yes, I can remember the figures girls.

733
00:44:43,493 --> 00:44:49,373
Speaker 2: There's a big growth in girls having psychological problems and

734
00:44:49,413 --> 00:44:51,413
Speaker 2: the figure I was thinking of was thirty percent and

735
00:44:51,453 --> 00:44:57,453
Speaker 2: the boys, by comparison, are.

736
00:44:55,693 --> 00:44:57,213
Speaker 4: Twelve Yeah, twelve percent.

737
00:44:57,333 --> 00:45:02,773
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's in the United States. No, you're absolutely

738
00:45:02,853 --> 00:45:05,173
Speaker 3: right when it comes to when it comes to social media,

739
00:45:06,613 --> 00:45:14,333
Speaker 3: girls are really vulnerable. And you know, there's there's a

740
00:45:14,453 --> 00:45:19,333
Speaker 3: growing body of evidence that suggests that the you know,

741
00:45:19,453 --> 00:45:24,653
Speaker 3: the negative impacts of a constant requirement for validation, the

742
00:45:24,733 --> 00:45:30,013
Speaker 3: constant exposure to what other people are doing in the world,

743
00:45:31,373 --> 00:45:35,173
Speaker 3: leads to kids and particularly girls become becoming a little

744
00:45:35,173 --> 00:45:38,013
Speaker 3: bit more neurotic about what's going on, and worried that

745
00:45:38,013 --> 00:45:40,293
Speaker 3: they're not going to cut it. They're also you know,

746
00:45:41,293 --> 00:45:45,773
Speaker 3: prone to being cyber bullied, so in that respect, yeah,

747
00:45:46,053 --> 00:45:49,333
Speaker 3: there is a problem for girls, and that's that's a

748
00:45:49,373 --> 00:45:53,893
Speaker 3: good reason to ban social media for people under sixteen.

749
00:45:54,053 --> 00:45:56,893
Speaker 2: Two things I want to sorry, yeah, no, go ahead.

750
00:45:57,133 --> 00:46:02,533
Speaker 2: Two things I want to string together. The collapse of morality.

751
00:46:03,693 --> 00:46:09,053
Speaker 2: That's a question for you and sex in teaching, because

752
00:46:09,093 --> 00:46:13,413
Speaker 2: the two, the two are very closely logged in together.

753
00:46:14,893 --> 00:46:16,973
Speaker 2: Have we had a collapse of morality do you think

754
00:46:17,013 --> 00:46:18,493
Speaker 2: in Western society?

755
00:46:20,453 --> 00:46:23,173
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think we have. And I think one

756
00:46:23,213 --> 00:46:26,173
Speaker 3: of the issues that that's a real problem for our

757
00:46:26,213 --> 00:46:29,293
Speaker 3: society is and it's one of the issues that kind

758
00:46:29,333 --> 00:46:31,453
Speaker 3: of counters the Age of Enlightenment. If you are a

759
00:46:31,493 --> 00:46:33,933
Speaker 3: religious person. The Age of Enlightenment really taught us all

760
00:46:33,973 --> 00:46:38,933
Speaker 3: to be skeptical, to think of ourselves as universal people,

761
00:46:38,973 --> 00:46:41,813
Speaker 3: but also to obviously, you know, question God. You know,

762
00:46:42,053 --> 00:46:46,533
Speaker 3: as nietzsch has premacy said, we've killed God. And as

763
00:46:46,653 --> 00:46:52,813
Speaker 3: people have come away from religion as their sort of arbiter,

764
00:46:53,213 --> 00:46:55,533
Speaker 3: a God is their arbitter of their lives. In following

765
00:46:55,573 --> 00:46:59,653
Speaker 3: the prestrict of the structures of a religion. Everyone's been

766
00:46:59,693 --> 00:47:04,253
Speaker 3: searching for a new set of ethics. And you know,

767
00:47:04,293 --> 00:47:06,853
Speaker 3: there are the new atheists like Dawkins and others, and

768
00:47:07,053 --> 00:47:10,533
Speaker 3: various ethicists around world Peter Singer out of Australia, who

769
00:47:10,573 --> 00:47:13,813
Speaker 3: are pointing to a new set of ethics, but they're

770
00:47:13,933 --> 00:47:18,293
Speaker 3: very hard for people to latch onto. And it's much

771
00:47:18,293 --> 00:47:21,973
Speaker 3: easier for people to latch onto the new religion of

772
00:47:22,733 --> 00:47:26,533
Speaker 3: postmodernism more than the new religion of you know, really

773
00:47:26,533 --> 00:47:31,173
Speaker 3: a name. Stuff like that comes across on TikTok so.

774
00:47:31,693 --> 00:47:34,613
Speaker 3: I think people are a little lost there. It does

775
00:47:34,653 --> 00:47:38,693
Speaker 3: seem to be a movement back towards religion. I'm not

776
00:47:38,693 --> 00:47:40,533
Speaker 3: sure what the answer is. Later, and I was brought

777
00:47:40,613 --> 00:47:45,453
Speaker 3: up as a Catholic, I very much became agnostic and

778
00:47:45,733 --> 00:47:48,293
Speaker 3: almost an atheist, and now I don't know where I am.

779
00:47:48,333 --> 00:47:52,333
Speaker 3: To be honest, I always find it impossible to reject

780
00:47:52,333 --> 00:47:57,773
Speaker 3: the possibility of a god. But as a society, we

781
00:47:57,853 --> 00:48:00,373
Speaker 3: have such a plurality of thinking on this that it's

782
00:48:00,453 --> 00:48:04,253
Speaker 3: difficult to get common and shared values around what the

783
00:48:04,293 --> 00:48:08,653
Speaker 3: ethics and society should be. Albeit that if we went

784
00:48:08,693 --> 00:48:11,133
Speaker 3: back to the basics, I think nearly every society does

785
00:48:11,213 --> 00:48:16,053
Speaker 3: agree on something that looks close to the Teen Commandments.

786
00:48:16,453 --> 00:48:20,373
Speaker 2: I think that's a rather wise soulation. Actually, sex and teaching.

787
00:48:21,253 --> 00:48:23,813
Speaker 2: Is there a place in schools for sex education?

788
00:48:24,853 --> 00:48:27,293
Speaker 3: Yeah, I absolutely think there's a place in schools for

789
00:48:27,853 --> 00:48:32,933
Speaker 3: sex education. You know, the world changed, what is it,

790
00:48:33,013 --> 00:48:36,493
Speaker 3: you know, in the sixties when women finally got control

791
00:48:36,573 --> 00:48:41,973
Speaker 3: of their fertility. It's probably the biggest sociological change in

792
00:48:42,013 --> 00:48:48,173
Speaker 3: the history of humans. Of humankind. There's no doubt that,

793
00:48:48,373 --> 00:48:51,533
Speaker 3: you know, we should put our heads in the sand

794
00:48:51,573 --> 00:48:55,013
Speaker 3: and ignore the sexual revolution. And I think in the

795
00:48:55,013 --> 00:48:59,253
Speaker 3: modern day world, we need to be clear that the

796
00:48:59,293 --> 00:49:02,773
Speaker 3: world is operating differently. So kids do need to be aware,

797
00:49:03,013 --> 00:49:05,893
Speaker 3: particularly young girls, they do need to be aware of

798
00:49:06,733 --> 00:49:09,813
Speaker 3: their sexuality. They need to unders stand contraception, they need

799
00:49:09,853 --> 00:49:12,773
Speaker 3: to understand the basics. The problem I have is there

800
00:49:12,813 --> 00:49:16,693
Speaker 3: seems to be a growing push to do that at

801
00:49:16,693 --> 00:49:20,693
Speaker 3: a younger and younger age. And it just seems insane

802
00:49:20,773 --> 00:49:25,813
Speaker 3: to me to be teaching kids before puberty at a

803
00:49:25,933 --> 00:49:29,733
Speaker 3: very young age about all sorts of sexual practices that

804
00:49:29,853 --> 00:49:32,053
Speaker 3: you know, you and I wouldn't have known about until

805
00:49:32,093 --> 00:49:33,573
Speaker 3: we were quite mature.

806
00:49:34,213 --> 00:49:36,533
Speaker 2: Well, I can give you a reason for it. It's

807
00:49:36,573 --> 00:49:40,653
Speaker 2: very simple. It is are being run by introduced and

808
00:49:40,693 --> 00:49:44,533
Speaker 2: run by Devians. Well you may well be right, and

809
00:49:44,653 --> 00:49:46,853
Speaker 2: they're getting away with it specifically in the States. Look,

810
00:49:47,253 --> 00:49:50,533
Speaker 2: I've I lied a long time ago that what happens

811
00:49:50,573 --> 00:49:53,893
Speaker 2: in America it used to be starting in California, but

812
00:49:53,973 --> 00:49:57,013
Speaker 2: now it can come from anywhere almost. But what happens

813
00:49:57,013 --> 00:49:59,853
Speaker 2: in America finds its way into the rest of the world,

814
00:50:00,053 --> 00:50:05,533
Speaker 2: particularly the Western world anglic countries, and you can you

815
00:50:05,573 --> 00:50:09,053
Speaker 2: can see it in advance and more. All recent times,

816
00:50:09,053 --> 00:50:11,773
Speaker 2: it's become something of a surprise to me at the

817
00:50:11,813 --> 00:50:14,333
Speaker 2: speed at which it moves. Now I'm about to give

818
00:50:14,333 --> 00:50:19,733
Speaker 2: you an example of what I'm talking about, and it

819
00:50:19,813 --> 00:50:23,573
Speaker 2: is something that stunned me over the weekend. In the

820
00:50:23,613 --> 00:50:29,173
Speaker 2: Weekend Australian, a woman who was qualified to cover this

821
00:50:29,213 --> 00:50:33,013
Speaker 2: sort of thing about a situation in Wales of all places,

822
00:50:33,653 --> 00:50:38,853
Speaker 2: where boys have been asking teachers in class, how do

823
00:50:38,973 --> 00:50:46,333
Speaker 2: we conduct choking during sex? And the answer is pornography. Essentially,

824
00:50:46,613 --> 00:50:51,093
Speaker 2: they're seeing it in pornography. She even indicates in the

825
00:50:51,213 --> 00:50:55,493
Speaker 2: article that the girls themselves are if not believing they're

826
00:50:55,653 --> 00:50:58,973
Speaker 2: then they're they're in motion to accepting that this is

827
00:50:59,053 --> 00:51:04,253
Speaker 2: part of it. And the boys are believing that the

828
00:51:04,293 --> 00:51:08,813
Speaker 2: girls what it did my head?

829
00:51:09,853 --> 00:51:11,733
Speaker 3: No, it does my head, And I think, you know,

830
00:51:11,813 --> 00:51:14,293
Speaker 3: and this is clearly down to pornography. This is clearly

831
00:51:14,373 --> 00:51:17,573
Speaker 3: down to there seems to be I think it's well

832
00:51:17,613 --> 00:51:21,493
Speaker 3: known that, you know, as people use pornography more and more,

833
00:51:21,533 --> 00:51:24,813
Speaker 3: they have a tendency to go to more and more extremes.

834
00:51:24,813 --> 00:51:28,453
Speaker 3: And of course, like any of these algorithms that I'm

835
00:51:28,573 --> 00:51:35,253
Speaker 3: operating on an app or on the internet, the algorithm,

836
00:51:35,373 --> 00:51:39,413
Speaker 3: algorithm is designed to tatilate and trigger you more and more.

837
00:51:39,453 --> 00:51:42,653
Speaker 3: And the same is true of porn. So where once

838
00:51:42,733 --> 00:51:45,253
Speaker 3: porn might have shown a beautiful expression of love, and

839
00:51:45,853 --> 00:51:52,453
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not totally condemn I don't condemn pornography entirely,

840
00:51:52,973 --> 00:51:55,253
Speaker 3: but it certainly should be used by adults. But where

841
00:51:55,813 --> 00:51:59,533
Speaker 3: people are being shown more and more extreme porn, and

842
00:51:59,693 --> 00:52:02,093
Speaker 3: especially at very young ages, of course they're going to

843
00:52:02,133 --> 00:52:04,773
Speaker 3: start to normalize that's what you do.

844
00:52:05,613 --> 00:52:09,413
Speaker 4: And and choking is an extremely dangerous.

845
00:52:11,413 --> 00:52:14,133
Speaker 3: Thing to do, and the fact that our young children

846
00:52:14,173 --> 00:52:16,213
Speaker 3: even know about it is just astonishing.

847
00:52:16,253 --> 00:52:19,053
Speaker 2: One question you mentioned was a boy asked the teacher,

848
00:52:19,893 --> 00:52:23,733
Speaker 2: how do I bring my girlfriend around after she's passed out?

849
00:52:24,213 --> 00:52:26,253
Speaker 3: Oh my god. There.

850
00:52:28,773 --> 00:52:32,173
Speaker 2: It's astonishing, but not really surprising when you think about it,

851
00:52:32,693 --> 00:52:34,893
Speaker 2: especially on the back of your explanation a moment ago.

852
00:52:35,653 --> 00:52:39,493
Speaker 4: No, well exactly. And this is the great irony of

853
00:52:39,533 --> 00:52:40,133
Speaker 4: all of this is.

854
00:52:42,533 --> 00:52:45,093
Speaker 3: We're trying to keep our children safe in the natural environment,

855
00:52:45,173 --> 00:52:48,533
Speaker 3: and we expose them to these sort of things online

856
00:52:48,613 --> 00:52:51,333
Speaker 3: we have. This is where Height is right. We need

857
00:52:51,413 --> 00:52:54,253
Speaker 3: to get kids off this stuff until they've got a

858
00:52:54,333 --> 00:52:58,533
Speaker 3: level of maturity that they can understand what's happening here.

859
00:52:58,573 --> 00:53:00,333
Speaker 3: I mean, you're seeing the same thing with the hookup

860
00:53:00,373 --> 00:53:05,293
Speaker 3: culture in young people there, you know, and I'm sure

861
00:53:05,333 --> 00:53:09,453
Speaker 3: that girls ultimately understand that this is not good for them.

862
00:53:10,133 --> 00:53:12,253
Speaker 3: There's a lot of evidence to suggest that, you know,

863
00:53:12,373 --> 00:53:16,013
Speaker 3: the top twenty percent of boys get to pick from

864
00:53:16,413 --> 00:53:19,973
Speaker 3: all the girls because the girls want to be with

865
00:53:20,053 --> 00:53:25,453
Speaker 3: the nicest looking, most sporty boy. If there's a belief

866
00:53:25,453 --> 00:53:27,933
Speaker 3: that those girls have and they you know, the girls

867
00:53:28,013 --> 00:53:32,053
Speaker 3: genuinely want love, but the boys will just keep moving

868
00:53:32,093 --> 00:53:36,893
Speaker 3: on and they're eventually going to be left feeling, you know, neglected,

869
00:53:37,613 --> 00:53:42,093
Speaker 3: sad because they've participated in a culture that is just

870
00:53:42,213 --> 00:53:46,973
Speaker 3: so shallow. And we need to get back to a

871
00:53:47,013 --> 00:53:49,453
Speaker 3: situation where you know, they have a word for it

872
00:53:49,493 --> 00:53:51,573
Speaker 3: these days, you know that you meet in the wild.

873
00:53:52,253 --> 00:53:54,893
Speaker 3: So many boys. I've talked to boys at universities who

874
00:53:54,933 --> 00:53:57,933
Speaker 3: can't find a girlfriend because the girls say, well, if

875
00:53:57,973 --> 00:53:59,733
Speaker 3: I wanted to have sex, so I just go on

876
00:53:59,813 --> 00:54:04,093
Speaker 3: tender you know, so back off. So, you know, even

877
00:54:04,173 --> 00:54:06,093
Speaker 3: just to chat up a girl as a young man

878
00:54:06,133 --> 00:54:09,693
Speaker 3: these days is problematic. Where does that leave our young men?

879
00:54:10,333 --> 00:54:15,013
Speaker 3: They're both kind of over feminized by their education and

880
00:54:15,053 --> 00:54:18,693
Speaker 3: then presented with an impossibly difficult task of finding a partner.

881
00:54:19,453 --> 00:54:20,133
Speaker 3: It's not good.

882
00:54:21,573 --> 00:54:23,773
Speaker 2: Give me a brief on the feminization of education.

883
00:54:25,613 --> 00:54:27,493
Speaker 4: Well, well, look, it's always a difficult one to go into.

884
00:54:27,613 --> 00:54:29,653
Speaker 3: And I would say at the outset that it's you know,

885
00:54:30,613 --> 00:54:35,373
Speaker 3: in danger of being accused of being a misogynist. But

886
00:54:36,053 --> 00:54:39,533
Speaker 3: you know, I think I've always believed that there's a

887
00:54:39,573 --> 00:54:43,733
Speaker 3: balance between the sexes, between the masculine and the feminine.

888
00:54:44,333 --> 00:54:48,613
Speaker 3: There are two biological sexes. By the way, later maybe

889
00:54:48,733 --> 00:54:51,853
Speaker 3: there may be more fluidity and gender, but there are

890
00:54:51,973 --> 00:54:53,453
Speaker 3: just two biological sexes.

891
00:54:53,493 --> 00:54:54,653
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a fellow traveler.

892
00:54:55,493 --> 00:54:59,373
Speaker 3: Yeah, And at the end of the day, our schools

893
00:55:00,173 --> 00:55:05,093
Speaker 3: have become flooded with particularly primary schools with women and

894
00:55:05,173 --> 00:55:10,173
Speaker 3: women both teaching and in leadership roles, and women quite

895
00:55:10,213 --> 00:55:13,933
Speaker 3: rightly are the cares in society when when you know,

896
00:55:14,133 --> 00:55:18,533
Speaker 3: women evolved to look after young children, to nurture those children,

897
00:55:19,133 --> 00:55:21,173
Speaker 3: and there's a stage in every mother's life where she

898
00:55:21,213 --> 00:55:23,853
Speaker 3: has to start to back away from that naturing and

899
00:55:24,253 --> 00:55:26,973
Speaker 3: allow the child to explore and grow. And that's and

900
00:55:27,013 --> 00:55:31,373
Speaker 3: that's why men in fathers are so important. They play

901
00:55:31,373 --> 00:55:33,973
Speaker 3: a different role. They push their kids, they encourage them

902
00:55:34,493 --> 00:55:37,533
Speaker 3: to get out and compete. I'm not saying women don't,

903
00:55:37,613 --> 00:55:42,133
Speaker 3: but there's there's more tendency to nurture and to discuss

904
00:55:42,933 --> 00:55:45,973
Speaker 3: from women. Now. That is what is happening in our schools.

905
00:55:45,973 --> 00:55:49,373
Speaker 3: We're seeing more and more leaders and teachers in the schools. Men.

906
00:55:49,573 --> 00:55:52,093
Speaker 3: Men are scared to go into primary schools these days

907
00:55:52,133 --> 00:55:54,013
Speaker 3: for reasons we both know.

908
00:55:55,293 --> 00:55:58,413
Speaker 4: And and so there's this over.

909
00:55:58,373 --> 00:56:05,253
Speaker 3: Nurturing of children and an over emphasis on cooperation and

910
00:56:05,293 --> 00:56:09,093
Speaker 3: discussion and a whole lot of things that actually leads

911
00:56:09,133 --> 00:56:11,853
Speaker 3: the boys feeling like they have to sit down on

912
00:56:11,893 --> 00:56:14,693
Speaker 3: the carpet with the girls and do nothing, which they'll

913
00:56:14,733 --> 00:56:16,973
Speaker 3: happily do if you give them an iPhone or some

914
00:56:17,013 --> 00:56:20,093
Speaker 3: sort of smart device that they can just get absorbed in.

915
00:56:20,733 --> 00:56:25,253
Speaker 3: But we're losing that balance between the masculine and feminine

916
00:56:25,853 --> 00:56:27,893
Speaker 3: that should be there. And the only way we can

917
00:56:28,013 --> 00:56:30,733
Speaker 3: resolve that, by the way, is to get more men

918
00:56:31,173 --> 00:56:35,413
Speaker 3: back into the teaching profession, particularly at the primary school level.

919
00:56:35,133 --> 00:56:40,253
Speaker 2: Which lead leads to another subject. Really not one that

920
00:56:40,293 --> 00:56:43,013
Speaker 2: you've covered as har as I'm aware at this point,

921
00:56:43,013 --> 00:56:46,053
Speaker 2: but co ed or single sex schools best.

922
00:56:47,613 --> 00:56:48,293
Speaker 4: That's a hard one.

923
00:56:48,493 --> 00:56:51,613
Speaker 3: I went to a single sex school, Saint John's College

924
00:56:52,653 --> 00:56:56,933
Speaker 3: in Hamilton. I must say, having come from a full

925
00:56:57,093 --> 00:57:00,253
Speaker 3: country school to a place where there were no girls,

926
00:57:00,253 --> 00:57:05,253
Speaker 3: I found it very discombobulating at the start, and actually

927
00:57:05,333 --> 00:57:07,733
Speaker 3: I'd have to say I think I suffered a psychological

928
00:57:07,933 --> 00:57:09,733
Speaker 3: deface it at the end of that time, because I

929
00:57:09,773 --> 00:57:12,693
Speaker 3: really didn't know how to approach approach girls when I

930
00:57:12,733 --> 00:57:16,253
Speaker 3: went to university. So look, I know these evidence that

931
00:57:16,293 --> 00:57:19,333
Speaker 3: suggests that that single sex schools are better for education.

932
00:57:19,973 --> 00:57:25,613
Speaker 3: My view is keeping the two sexes together through school

933
00:57:25,733 --> 00:57:30,933
Speaker 3: is the better, the better way, because I think that

934
00:57:30,933 --> 00:57:33,613
Speaker 3: that period of puberty is such a great time for

935
00:57:33,653 --> 00:57:37,013
Speaker 3: socialization between the two sexes and to understand each other.

936
00:57:37,053 --> 00:57:38,173
Speaker 4: That's just my opinion.

937
00:57:38,333 --> 00:57:39,213
Speaker 3: I know others will have.

938
00:57:39,373 --> 00:57:42,133
Speaker 2: But I was interested in your opinion. I experienced both,

939
00:57:42,493 --> 00:57:47,013
Speaker 2: and I could argue either way, to be honest.

940
00:57:47,173 --> 00:57:49,493
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree, all right.

941
00:57:50,133 --> 00:57:51,973
Speaker 2: So I mentioned that I had a suggestion to make

942
00:57:52,013 --> 00:57:54,493
Speaker 2: to you, And now it would appear to be the

943
00:57:54,573 --> 00:58:01,533
Speaker 2: time you mentioned globalization and you mentioned American politics, and

944
00:58:01,573 --> 00:58:04,253
Speaker 2: I think that there is another podcast on both those

945
00:58:04,533 --> 00:58:07,293
Speaker 2: topics for us to cover sometime in the not too

946
00:58:07,333 --> 00:58:07,973
Speaker 2: distant future.

947
00:58:08,013 --> 00:58:12,493
Speaker 3: You say, I'd love to do that. I'm fascinated in it.

948
00:58:13,973 --> 00:58:17,813
Speaker 3: I think we're in danger of the world economy contracting

949
00:58:17,893 --> 00:58:25,013
Speaker 3: Judah deglobalization, and New Zealand's in a particularly vulnerable situation

950
00:58:25,333 --> 00:58:27,693
Speaker 3: in that regard. I mean that kind of hint, you know,

951
00:58:27,773 --> 00:58:31,493
Speaker 3: hitches back to education as well, because we have to

952
00:58:31,533 --> 00:58:36,613
Speaker 3: have a highly educated, innovative society in New Zealand and

953
00:58:36,613 --> 00:58:40,013
Speaker 3: with such a small country, such a long way from anywhere,

954
00:58:40,933 --> 00:58:44,853
Speaker 3: that we need the benefits of free trade to do

955
00:58:44,973 --> 00:58:47,853
Speaker 3: well in the world. And you know, I've got lots

956
00:58:47,853 --> 00:58:50,693
Speaker 3: of thoughts on that from my years in trade development.

957
00:58:51,293 --> 00:58:53,653
Speaker 3: But I'd love to love to have a deeper discussion

958
00:58:53,653 --> 00:58:54,733
Speaker 3: on those topics.

959
00:58:54,413 --> 00:58:56,893
Speaker 2: And we might we might make it a trifector and

960
00:58:56,893 --> 00:58:58,333
Speaker 2: throw media into it as well.

961
00:58:58,853 --> 00:59:01,413
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, just on that note, and as you as

962
00:59:01,453 --> 00:59:05,373
Speaker 3: you talked about it, I did listen to your podcast

963
00:59:05,493 --> 00:59:09,133
Speaker 3: with Oliver Hartwich and I think is a very good thinker.

964
00:59:09,133 --> 00:59:11,173
Speaker 3: I love some of this thinking about how New Zealand

965
00:59:11,253 --> 00:59:14,493
Speaker 3: might become a little bit more Swiss in its democracy.

966
00:59:15,853 --> 00:59:18,333
Speaker 3: That's not an easy leak to make. But one thing

967
00:59:18,373 --> 00:59:21,093
Speaker 3: he did touch on and I was cheering alongside, was

968
00:59:21,493 --> 00:59:26,733
Speaker 3: foreign direct investment. New Zealand needs to understand that it

969
00:59:26,733 --> 00:59:29,253
Speaker 3: doesn't really matter that much where the money comes from.

970
00:59:29,293 --> 00:59:35,133
Speaker 3: We need capital. Our firms in New Zealand have consistently

971
00:59:35,213 --> 00:59:38,893
Speaker 3: been undercapitalized, so we need we need the factors of

972
00:59:38,893 --> 00:59:42,573
Speaker 3: production and obviously human smart humans is a big part

973
00:59:42,613 --> 00:59:47,413
Speaker 3: of that education. But capital is another thing. And we've

974
00:59:47,453 --> 00:59:49,733
Speaker 3: done a really bad job over the years of trying

975
00:59:49,733 --> 00:59:52,773
Speaker 3: to protect the economy from foreign direct investment while trying

976
00:59:52,773 --> 00:59:55,453
Speaker 3: to open up other economies to our products. We need

977
00:59:55,493 --> 00:59:57,093
Speaker 3: to we need to be a little bit more balanced

978
00:59:57,093 --> 01:00:00,493
Speaker 3: about that. And he did site Ireland, which is a

979
01:00:00,533 --> 01:00:03,453
Speaker 3: country of my ancestry, and you know that have the

980
01:00:03,493 --> 01:00:06,613
Speaker 3: advantage of being situated in the middle of Europe, on

981
01:00:06,653 --> 01:00:09,533
Speaker 3: the edge of Europe. But they've done fantastic job of

982
01:00:09,973 --> 01:00:13,693
Speaker 3: attracting foreign direct investment and in their education system and

983
01:00:13,733 --> 01:00:16,893
Speaker 3: they're moving well ahead of others as a knowledge economy,

984
01:00:17,253 --> 01:00:19,533
Speaker 3: and I think New Zealand needs to do something similar.

985
01:00:19,733 --> 01:00:22,253
Speaker 2: You know, I've never been attracted to Ireland in any way,

986
01:00:22,253 --> 01:00:25,853
Speaker 2: shape or form until Oliver made those comments, and by

987
01:00:25,893 --> 01:00:27,293
Speaker 2: the end of it, I was ready to pack up

988
01:00:27,293 --> 01:00:28,053
Speaker 2: the house and leave.

989
01:00:30,013 --> 01:00:31,613
Speaker 4: Well, they got great crack over there.

990
01:00:31,773 --> 01:00:36,173
Speaker 3: You know, they love to talk, but they're good thinkers,

991
01:00:36,213 --> 01:00:38,773
Speaker 3: and you know they've been placed in a.

992
01:00:38,733 --> 01:00:40,493
Speaker 4: Difficult situation because of Brexit.

993
01:00:41,533 --> 01:00:45,333
Speaker 3: I might add lasion that you know, Island is a

994
01:00:45,373 --> 01:00:48,373
Speaker 3: place that actually demonstrates for me that we have to

995
01:00:49,013 --> 01:00:51,093
Speaker 3: look to the future, forget about the past and all

996
01:00:51,133 --> 01:00:54,493
Speaker 3: the injustices and everything that's gone on in the world

997
01:00:54,573 --> 01:00:58,413
Speaker 3: where we could have a grievance. It's so important that

998
01:00:58,493 --> 01:01:02,893
Speaker 3: a society pulls together and comes together around a vision

999
01:01:02,933 --> 01:01:06,013
Speaker 3: and a goal. And thank god Island has done that.

1000
01:01:06,013 --> 01:01:08,573
Speaker 3: They've moved on from the troubles, although you know, it

1001
01:01:08,693 --> 01:01:10,693
Speaker 3: really worries me that the Brexit thing might stir that

1002
01:01:10,813 --> 01:01:13,533
Speaker 3: up again. But New Zealand has to be very careful

1003
01:01:13,573 --> 01:01:16,493
Speaker 3: on this front. We need to understand that we're all

1004
01:01:16,533 --> 01:01:20,653
Speaker 3: New Zealanders wherever we came from, and we need a

1005
01:01:20,693 --> 01:01:23,613
Speaker 3: common set of values and some national pride in being

1006
01:01:23,653 --> 01:01:27,333
Speaker 3: New Zealanders, not being in our groups, whatever they may be,

1007
01:01:27,493 --> 01:01:30,973
Speaker 3: but being New Zealander's first and foremost and proud of

1008
01:01:30,973 --> 01:01:35,293
Speaker 3: our country. And as people would say, all throwing the

1009
01:01:35,293 --> 01:01:37,293
Speaker 3: walker in the same direction.

1010
01:01:37,453 --> 01:01:39,733
Speaker 2: Would you allow a walker from anywhere in the world

1011
01:01:39,813 --> 01:01:40,493
Speaker 2: to come in.

1012
01:01:42,693 --> 01:01:46,653
Speaker 3: That's a hard question. I'm not a say again.

1013
01:01:46,733 --> 01:01:48,653
Speaker 2: I was going to say, hold the thought, because we

1014
01:01:48,693 --> 01:01:51,493
Speaker 2: can throw that in with the other lot. Yeah, it's

1015
01:01:51,533 --> 01:01:54,853
Speaker 2: building now your work. What is the best way for

1016
01:01:54,933 --> 01:01:55,653
Speaker 2: people to find it?

1017
01:01:56,053 --> 01:01:58,213
Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm still building that up at the moment.

1018
01:01:58,253 --> 01:02:00,813
Speaker 3: But if they go on to substack, look up substack

1019
01:02:00,933 --> 01:02:05,533
Speaker 3: and look for antology. I've also been posting my work

1020
01:02:05,573 --> 01:02:09,413
Speaker 3: to LinkedIn and Twitter. I've got a little bit of

1021
01:02:09,413 --> 01:02:11,093
Speaker 3: work to do there late and getting that a bit

1022
01:02:11,413 --> 01:02:15,573
Speaker 3: more in shape. I don't use Instagram, don't. I don't

1023
01:02:15,653 --> 01:02:19,893
Speaker 3: like that platform. But if they simply look me up

1024
01:02:19,933 --> 01:02:23,053
Speaker 3: on substack, they'll find antology.

1025
01:02:23,653 --> 01:02:33,093
Speaker 2: Anthology on substack, yes, not anthology antology a n T antology. Yes,

1026
01:02:33,653 --> 01:02:35,773
Speaker 2: And I encourage everyone to do it and spread it

1027
01:02:35,813 --> 01:02:40,453
Speaker 2: around it's it's very deserving of your attention, and I

1028
01:02:40,493 --> 01:02:42,133
Speaker 2: want to thank you Tony.

1029
01:02:41,853 --> 01:02:44,373
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for giving me this time and in

1030
01:02:44,453 --> 01:02:48,413
Speaker 3: this platform. It's it's not often someone like me gets

1031
01:02:48,453 --> 01:02:50,933
Speaker 3: the chance to have a discussion like this later and

1032
01:02:50,973 --> 01:02:53,893
Speaker 3: it's been it's been really pleasurable. So thank you very much.

1033
01:02:53,973 --> 01:02:57,093
Speaker 2: Well, we shall meet again in the not too distant

1034
01:02:57,133 --> 01:02:59,973
Speaker 2: future at a time and date to be arranged perfect.

1035
01:03:00,013 --> 01:03:02,533
Speaker 3: I look forward to it. Likewise, Thanks Laton.

1036
01:03:02,773 --> 01:03:22,933
Speaker 2: Thank you Tony. Now I'm doing it a little differently

1037
01:03:23,013 --> 01:03:27,973
Speaker 2: this year. At the end of the replay, I usually

1038
01:03:28,013 --> 01:03:30,573
Speaker 2: have a few words to say, and every year I

1039
01:03:30,653 --> 01:03:32,813
Speaker 2: have to struggle to think up what the appropriate thing

1040
01:03:32,893 --> 01:03:36,733
Speaker 2: is to put in this particular plot. So I've decided

1041
01:03:36,773 --> 01:03:39,733
Speaker 2: to give myself a break and do one that covers

1042
01:03:39,813 --> 01:03:42,413
Speaker 2: all of them. So if you've heard this before, you

1043
01:03:42,453 --> 01:03:45,933
Speaker 2: can turn it off because you've heard it, because it's

1044
01:03:45,933 --> 01:03:47,493
Speaker 2: going to be the same one for each of the

1045
01:03:47,693 --> 01:03:51,653
Speaker 2: seven replays. Now, if this is the first one, then

1046
01:03:51,693 --> 01:03:55,413
Speaker 2: I trust that you're having a wonderful holiday. If you're

1047
01:03:55,413 --> 01:03:58,133
Speaker 2: not on holiday yet, your time will come. Rest assured.

1048
01:03:58,933 --> 01:04:03,733
Speaker 2: I have enjoyed doing these because re listening to them myself,

1049
01:04:04,093 --> 01:04:06,093
Speaker 2: I get more out of them, and I see things,

1050
01:04:06,213 --> 01:04:09,173
Speaker 2: or I should say, I hear things that I might

1051
01:04:09,213 --> 01:04:11,213
Speaker 2: have got slightly wrong or I could have done better,

1052
01:04:11,453 --> 01:04:14,933
Speaker 2: So it's a learning curve as well. Anyway, we will

1053
01:04:14,973 --> 01:04:18,973
Speaker 2: be back for the next one a week from this

1054
01:04:19,053 --> 01:04:22,733
Speaker 2: particular release, unless, of course it's the last one, which

1055
01:04:22,813 --> 01:04:26,133
Speaker 2: is on the twenty ninth of January, and that'll be

1056
01:04:26,173 --> 01:04:29,853
Speaker 2: the end of this replay series. Add on February five,

1057
01:04:30,253 --> 01:04:33,973
Speaker 2: we shall return with fresh content in the meantime at

1058
01:04:34,013 --> 01:04:36,453
Speaker 2: any stage us drop us on notes if you've got

1059
01:04:36,493 --> 01:04:39,013
Speaker 2: comment that you'd like to make later at Newstalks AB

1060
01:04:39,093 --> 01:04:41,893
Speaker 2: dot co dot Enzen and Caroline at NEWSTALKSB dot co

1061
01:04:42,133 --> 01:04:46,173
Speaker 2: dot nz and we shall talk soon.

1062
01:04:54,053 --> 01:04:57,693
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B Listen

1063
01:04:57,773 --> 01:05:00,733
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1064
01:05:00,853 --> 01:05:03,973
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.