WEBVTT - Episode 22: The Spiral of Shame 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:02.920 Music is a big thing for me when I'm like overwhelmed. 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:08.080 So Taylor Swift, Yeah, Oil Swift's mine too, really, Oh my. 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:09.360 God, Taylor Swift. 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.320 It's a Wednesday morning and I'm walking to school with 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:16.040 sixteen year old Emily Martin. We talk Taylor Swift for 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:18.479 a while, because when you find a fellow swift Y, 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:20.599 the bond is instant. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.479 It just feels like she's in my brain. Sometimes I'm like, 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.000 how do you know. 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:25.680 This about me? 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:27.800 Like this feels like a song about anxiety, or like 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:28.920 there are specific lyrics. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:33.200 I'm just like, hold on to specific lyrics, like I'm 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.760 the problem. It's me. You might recognize that from Taylor 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.800 Swift's song anti Hero. There's a reason these words resonate 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:45.960 with teenagers like Emily. She has dyslexia and ADHD. Nothing 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.640 wrong with those, but we live in a society that 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.320 still doesn't make space for different cognition, still doesn't really 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.639 understand it. So for much of her life Emily has 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:57.000 felt wrong. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.400 I do have moments where I'm like self conscious of 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.880 how I'm perceived, because then again I come back to 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.520 the thing of I'm the problem. I need to fix something. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:11.360 It's my fault, and then I feel bad for putting 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.240 all my issues on to someone else. I still have 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.039 those underlying thoughts of that got to hate me. 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.200 I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world of neurodiversity. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.120 I'm not an expert, but my daughter is neurodivergent, and 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:35.080 a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD. In 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.480 this series, you'll hear from experts and from many wonderful 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.160 people who experience the world in a unique way. We're 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:47.480 looking at neurodiversity from the inside. Gelda. I'm Sonya Gray, 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:59.600 and this is no such thing as normal. Series two. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:05.640 Diagnoses like ADHD, autism, dyslexia, etc. Still carry a weighty stigma, 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.040 despite all the awareness and all the people like me 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.720 continually banging on about it. But if we view them 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.120 through a neurodiversity affirming lens, these are simply natural, normal 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.600 differences and very very valuable ones. So in this episode, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.240 I'm asking why it is that neurodivergent people are so 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:30.920 prone to anxiety, depression, substance abuse, and general overall low 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.239 self esteem. Why are those with ADHD and dyslexia filling 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:40.079 our jail cells, our mental health facilities, and our suicide stats. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.880 We're still saying the problem is with the individual. Just 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:50.040 try a bit harder. But it's actually really hard, almost impossible, 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.799 to operate in a world that tells you that who 0:02:52.880 --> 0:03:01.239 you really are is wrong. Year old Emily Martin was 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.320 struggling to find her place in the world from a 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.919 very young age, and just her second year of primary school, 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.680 she was referred to the public child mental health service 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.639 in Auckland, the Cari Center. Emily's come a long way 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.000 in the last few years. She is bright and vivacious, 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.880 but that sense of I'm not enough it's still there. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.760 I'm very good at masking, so people will say to me, Oh, 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.040 you don't have anxiety. You don't have I'm like, actually, yeah, 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.080 I do. I just mask it because of the judgment 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.000 I've had in the past from people, and so it's 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:37.000 very draining on me. 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:42.000 Can you remember the point where things were really really 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.600 difficult for you? Can you give me an idea of 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:45.600 what that looked like. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.640 So I had gone to the Cowrie Center when I 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.080 was about six or seven, but I guess I don't 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.800 really know the purpose of me being there. It was like, Oh, 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.240 I just feel nervous all the time. Where I feel 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:56.680 anxious all the time, but I didn't know there was 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.680 like a label for it or an explanation. At that time, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.720 I hadn't been diagnosed with ADHD. It was only the anxiety. 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.720 But I don't think I was as ware that I 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.080 was called anxiety. I guess I didn't really understand what 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:10.280 was going on in my brain. 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.400 Emily tried two different primary schools, but she was miserable 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:16.039 at both. 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.080 I was failing everything, Like if I was passing, it 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:19.960 was barely passing. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.520 I think the real low was when she was in 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:27.200 year six, and. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:31.159 That's Emily's mum, Joe, who guided her through that hugely 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:32.080 stressful time. 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:38.040 And things were so bad academically, so bad socially. Emily 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.600 was in a terrible state. Her self esteem wasn't absolute 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:46.120 low when she wasn't passing, she wasn't in friendship groups 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.000 where she could be herself, and I was just like, 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.400 what am I going to do here? She had a 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:57.839 teacher that caused significant grief and that's really when the 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.400 anxiety really came out, because she was scared to go 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.119 to school. She wouldn't eat in the morning at all, 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.520 and this teacher had one day ripped up someone's work 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.240 in front of the class. This was in year two 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.880 and Emily was petrified that would happen to her, and 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.320 so it was probably through her whole primary schooling at 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.960 both schools. She never ate breakfast. She simply could not, 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.200 So we didn't fully understand what was going on. 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.520 What was going on was a kid in crisis and 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.040 a schooling system which didn't understand and couldn't accommodate her. 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.960 There was a mix of dyslexia ADHD and eventually disc caalculia, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.080 which is a specific learning difficulty with maths. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.839 The effort that she put in was phenomenal to pass 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:51.880 and to scrape in and so it wasn't obvious because 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.799 of her intelligence and because of how hard she worked, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.160 so I understand it was hard probably for the teachers 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:01.120 to understand that as well. But she got a dyslexia 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:06.080 diagnosis I think in year five, and they didn't even 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.359 embrace that. So Emily didn't get a lot of support 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.760 with her dyslexia. We found out about the ADHD diagnosis, 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.800 and then I think it was in year ten dyscalculia. 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.840 So she had always struggled with maths and she had 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:25.359 been just absolutely driven to learn her times tables in 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.080 year five and sex, and she simply could not. She 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.960 tried every single thing she could, but it was always 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.160 kind of like it was Emily's fault that she couldn't 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:34.480 do her times tables. 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.680 I'm imagining you were seeing it at home, the repercussions 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:38.200 at home. 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.240 Yes, absolutely, Oh my goodness, maths was not good for 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:42.400 the whole family's mental health. 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.800 And what about just in general, Joe, in terms of 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.719 how Emily was right through She got into the car 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.719 center at six, so obviously you thought there's major problems. 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.040 What were you seeing that really caused you concern? 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.800 I think it was lot about not fitting in, sort 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.480 of difficult relationships with peers. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:07.640 Was she having meltdowns at home? 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.760 Oh yeah, I think just some quite oppositional behavior and 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.000 not wanting to cooperate, or if she was feeling anxious, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.160 it would turn into something really big. She could go 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.680 from zero to ten just like that. 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.360 The way I like to describe it, because when I 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.200 call it emotional overwhelmed, it's the volcano exploding. And I 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.520 find it very hard to explain to people. It can 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.600 be like obviously oppositional behavior. It can be me having 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.840 like a full meltdown, crying panic attack, which I very 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.280 rarely now have, but when I do have them, they're 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.200 very hard to control, to the point where medication has 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:45.280 to get involved to. 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:45.920 Calm me down. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.480 Tell me about panic attacks when they were at their 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:50.679 worst for you. 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:56.960 When they're at the worst. I'm crying. I can't really talk. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.480 No one can really understand me. I feel like I'm 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.840 going to faint, I feel dizzy, I feel but just disorientated. 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.120 I don't know how to get the words out. A 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.880 massive explosion. It feels like glasses shattering. It feels like 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.840 the whole world is crashing down on me and the 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:16.040 whole world is going to end. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.840 Sitting here listening to you, I'm thinking, you know, you 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.320 had this terrible situation with the teacher in year two, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.360 and people might go, oh, kids should be resilient and 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.440 be able to handle that. But the kids I have 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.000 interviewed and spoken to, it can be one year or 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:36.160 one incident at school at that vulnerable age. It completely 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.400 derails you and it's so to me heartbreaking. 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.200 Yes, you know, the self esteem issue was huge for 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.240 Emily because she thought she was dumb, she thought she 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:48.120 was always the problem. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:54.880 Yeah, the problem is me. It's the silent mantra for 0:08:55.000 --> 0:09:00.760 so many neurodivigent kids struggling with internalized shame and often 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.120 crippling anxiety. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.280 So anxiety starts from something, usually fear. 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.440 That's Jane Kirsten, whose voice you might recognize from episode 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.760 fourteen on Dyslexia. She spoke with her amazing son Michael. 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.520 Jane has a private counseling and psychotherapy practice. Many of 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.440 her clients are eurodivergent, and often they're still carrying feelings 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.000 of shame and unworthiness from childhood. 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.679 If you have grown up failing over years, you know, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.640 then of course you're going to start feeling fearful of study, 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.440 you know, of what other people are thinking, what other 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.960 children are thinking. Children are actually feeling shame from a 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:49.600 very young age, you know, children with learning differences, difficulties. Yeah, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.040 so from a very young age, children are growing up 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.800 feeling like they're less sin. And when you feel like 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.559 you're less sin and you're not achieving, then you're probably 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.559 likely to feel very anxious and. 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.040 Then you're not going to learn very well. 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.040 No, and the more cordex just shuts down, that's right, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:09.439 And then then comes the trauma piece. But my experience, 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:11.720 because I work mainly now with adults, is that I 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.080 see high levels of anxiety across the board, and as 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.240 we work down into where this has come from, it 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.280 goes all the way back through childhood. But it's across 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.800 the board, feelings of not being good enough, failing, not 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:28.280 fitting in, being different, you know, a range of things, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.400 and dependent on their temperaments and history, of course, that 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:36.640 makes them still very anxious adults. It can be ages 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.040 later where the problem is suddenly now seen and that 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.559 child is already experiencing huge shame in there for anxiety 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.520 and that's been going on for a while. I mean, Brusheet, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.320 you're saying to me, you can't test children for dyslexia 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.800 before seven, And I was like, oh darn, I think 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.840 that we can. I knew my son was dyslexicat too, 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.800 and we had diagnosis before seven. There's that whole thing. 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:02.840 By seven, that child might be two years or three 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:07.960 years into a major anxiety or general nosed anxiety disorder or. 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.920 Absolutely, despite the fact Janeson Michael had an early diagnosis 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.800 and a super supportive mum, he still suffered emotionally. He 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.680 was a profoundly dyslexic student in the mainstream school system, 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.840 and there's one particular memory of school that still haunts him. 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.280 You hear books start closing, and then people go up 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.439 and give the book to the teacher at the front, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.560 and then I'd be on the first page, stool. I 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.120 don't know what the heck I'm doing, And it was 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:43.160 the pressure from the other people finishing before me. And 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.320 not only did I finish last out of them all, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.199 but I was sitting there feeling really stupid because everyone 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.360 was looking back at me, like, oh, we're still going 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.080 because this kid's on his first page, you know what 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.240 I mean. I definitely carry, you know, even many years 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.960 after being gone from school, I carry those anxiety and 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.800 all those feelings because of how I felt back in class. 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.440 For sure, it was like a living hell being at 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.200 school for me personally, it was bad. 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.760 Michael's gone on to great things. He is a success story, 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.880 but he still feels the shame from school. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.560 He had had some trauma through being hit by a 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.800 teacher in primary school for not listening or not paying attention, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.720 and yeah, needless to say, that was not good for 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:33.360 him at all. 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.640 It's the anxiety around the learners that is the problem, 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.800 and we can give all the supports and accommodations and 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.000 they can get all the best marks. If they're anxious, 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.800 they carry that with them. I feel like the missing 0:12:47.840 --> 0:13:13.400 piece is how are you? Therapist Jane Kirsten has great 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.920 insight into the unique neurodivergent experience of anxiety and shame, 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.920 so I'm keen to get her take on what happens 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.160 after the diagnosis, particularly for adults. I am struck by 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:30.880 the enormity of what so many are still carrying. Supposedly postdiagnosis, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.679 they understand themselves and their brains better, but for many 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:39.679 the struggle is ongoing and persistent. You get the diagnosis, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.600 Oh okay, it all makes sense, but then it's like, actually, 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.720 who am I? Who am I? Because you've had the 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:52.600 masker for so long you're great at playing the game. Yes, 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.960 when you try and unmask it as such a process, yes, 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.000 it's like that little kid is still in there, going 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:03.400 I'm still here. I don't trust that it's okay to unmask. 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.240 That's right. It's one thing to know something right, it's 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.680 another thing to experience it through to a place of healing. 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.800 So we can have a diagnosis, which I think is 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.200 incredibly important. But then we've got to do the processing 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.240 and usually we've got to go back to the original pain. Yeah, 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.080 and that makes it very, very hard when you're someone 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.800 that finds processing emotions difficult. And I think that this 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.400 is a major problem that I'd like other therapists to 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.760 really understand, because our people with ADHD dyslexia, even some 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.160 gift of people, really really do struggle to process their feelings. 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.440 This makes a lot of sense. Those with unique cognitions 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.760 feel the world in bold and when you feel so much, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.520 it's a lot to process. It hurts literally. There are 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.640 studies that show intense emotional pain or rejection activate the 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.000 same region of the brain is physical pain. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.000 This guy in my research that said he'd rather take 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:09.160 a greater to his foot than feel that emotional pain again. 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.960 And so that was a very profound explanation by him 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.600 around facing the emotional pain. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.280 The greater to the foot a great way of explaining 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.760 just how intense it can be. So I wonder if 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:28.920 these lifelong negative emotional experiences can be called trauma. Jane 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.280 Kirsten says, it's complicated. Everyone's different and there are different 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.120 types of trauma which have different effects. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.920 Trauma is specific in itself as to what it is. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.760 I think that most people I've worked with have a 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.920 level of trauma because of their learning difference or neurodifference, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:56.720 and that tends to come from specific ways that they've 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.200 been affected. You know, it's not necessary everybody. I don't 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.320 think we're right if we say everybody has trauma. I 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.440 don't think we're right in saying everybody who's neurodifferent has trauma. 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.720 There's lots of neurotypical people with loads of trauma. Yeah, 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.480 but I think there is a specific type of situation 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.600 that happens that causes trauma in our children and then 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:19.520 later adults. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:24.960 When does a negative experience or experiences cross the line 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.560 to be called trauma. We talk about small tea trauma 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:34.600 and big ta trauma. When do we capitalize the te right? 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.400 You know, our brain has capacities to process certain things right, 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.480 and so it's when our brain has not got the 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.600 capacity to process some horrific thing that trauma starts encode. 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:54.000 So trauma itself really is trappedness. It's when something has 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:58.320 happened that we are unable to fight or flight. The 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.880 brain's amygdala when danger is Basically, hormones are sent to 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.080 it lightning fast and it goes into the danger of 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:10.000 fight flight freeze response. And so if we've been in 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.399 a trap situation, example, a child in a classroom and 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.000 something bad has happened and they can't get out and 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.200 they are highly upset in that feels like they're going 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.119 to be trapped and almost like they might die as 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.840 something horrendous is happening. The teacher might be angry at them, 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.680 other kids are laughing that child is trapped. They can't 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.359 get out of that classroom, they're not allowed out. That's 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.840 enough to create a trauma response in them, you know, 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.000 and it can become a really difficult, hard spiral for 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.720 somebody who gets quite trapped in that. Like you're saying, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:46.359 old patterns and old experiences. So it needs disseminating, it 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.560 needs opening up and understanding all the different facets to it. 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.679 Probably what it needs is an expert to guide you 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.400 through it, because working with trauma beg T trauma all 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:04.400 Little Teacher Warmer can be traumatizing in itself. And Jane says, 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.399 the healing process is not just in the head. It 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:15.160 has to include the body. You need to feel to heal, it's. 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.800 Vital and feeling. Yeah, you're not going to heal if 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.760 you don't feel you need to take the story away 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.320 from their fest you do and just feel it's like 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.719 having an observer, to be able to observe what's happening 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.240 to us without becoming one with it or one with 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.320 a story about it. That's the key to feeling, to healing, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.199 because to face into things that are really hard is 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.000 very painful, right, And we're creatures that don't want change, 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.199 really and we don't want to face pain. Yeah, but 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.160 to heal, we've got to face pain. There's no other 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.719 way back to that body. And can't go round, it 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.720 can't go over. It's like we're going on a bear hunt. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.720 Do you remember that book? Can't go round, it can't 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:55.760 go over, it can't go under. It got to go 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.159 through it. You have to face the beer. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.399 But what happens when there's more than one beer in 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.280 someone's picture, when there's other layers of trauma? I'm guessing 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.320 that's not a straightforward. 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.240 Oh no, not at all. And so the more sort 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.879 of developmental situation that you have, like it could be 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.679 you could have a child with who's dyslexic their parent. 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.800 One of them is dyslexic but not identified. They don't 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.679 like what they're seeing in their child. The child is 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.959 already struggling at school, they've already been felt like they 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.240 had a trauma situation where they've been trapped in the classroom, 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.840 can't get out, they're shutting down. They go home, they 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.600 get told off by that parent. The parent yells at them, 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.640 they don't want to understand them. That's enough to add 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.320 more trauma to that child, let alone other major abuses 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.160 that we know about. Yeah, so the more you get 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.160 that consistent experience of trauma over and over, the more 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.680 complex and more likely for PTSD. And that's why I'm 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.640 a great believer in the therapy process, for going into 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.840 the pain and into helping integrate, you know, and come 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:04.800 through that trauma and that pain. 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:10.120 But is it possible? And I say that is all right, 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.280 But it sounds hard. If there's unsupported ADHD, autism or 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.520 dyslexia plus other layers of trauma, it's a lot to process. 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:22.600 So maybe this is where the rest of us come in, 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:27.120 shifting how we think about and treat those with different cognitions, 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.400 essentially removing the blame but changing long held views. Isn't 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:33.440 easy either. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.240 It's very very challenging. How do we do this with 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.600 a lot of acceptance and a lot of caring for 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:42.800 each other in all of our differences. 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.280 How can we best help those who experience the world 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.880 differently and are carrying trauma and shame. Jane Kirsten says 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.399 empathy is key and an understanding that the diagnosis is real, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:14.359 and so is the pain. 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:20.040 To actually understand someone, you have to be able to identify. 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.760 And I think that because we're human, we all know shame, 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.720 and anyone listening to this who says they don't, I 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.840 just think it's not true. We all experience shame. Therefore, 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.520 we can all identify with each other and then we 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.640 can have empathy, because that's how we get empathy is identification. 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.880 Joe Martin, mum of sixteen year old Emily, says there's 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.600 a lot of empathy in their family now and it's 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:49.960 come quite literally through identification. Despite all that Emily's been through, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:51.399 there's a silver lining. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.639 You know, through Emily's journey and also our son is 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.520 autistic in ADHD. But it's also led to the various 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.200 members of the family realizing that actually they are too, 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:08.359 so Emily's father, through seeing our son and Emily's journeys, 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.000 realized that he was autistic in ADHD, and so, you know, 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:16.240 at fifty was able to get those diagnosis and sense 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.879 was made about his world, things that had always been 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:24.800 difficult for him, and suddenly he understood himself. 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.280 The autism ADHD combo can come with a lot of 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.560 complications in the world. It was he like, Oh, I've 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.479 only i'd known, I would have, you know. 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.720 I think it was more just relief. He did also 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:41.400 get a dyslexi diagnosis about ten years before that, and 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.080 that was the first time I ever saw him in 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.000 tears because it was just such a relief. So for him, 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:50.760 it was the relief and thinking back to when he 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.400 was a child, there was even less known about neurodiversities. 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:58.879 So now he understands, and he understands why he finds 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.960 group situations and why he doesn't like all the small 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.800 talk that kind of networking side. He'd rather be one 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:09.080 on one with someone, and why he gets overwhelmed at times. 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:12.000 So we talk about that a lot as a family, 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.000 and understanding and seeing the triggers or knowing when to 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:16.520 pull back if someone's in a moment. 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:19.320 One thing I'm talking about with this is it self 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.280 esteem peace, And I just wonder, you know, it's so 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.520 interesting for adults that get diagnosed late. Do you think 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.800 like there's a relief for him, But is his self 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:30.440 esteem good? 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:31.200 Would you say? 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.760 Intelligence actually mastered it and so he was able to 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.280 find ways to cope and get through, But it didn't 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:39.880 you know, it was actually really hard. And I think 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:42.720 the thing also with your adversities and especially ADHD, it 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.320 takes its toll on your brain because you're constantly working 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:48.080 on all these things and trying to work it out 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.280 and trying to make sense what your brain's doing and 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:53.720 what the world around doing, and so it's exhausting. So 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:57.720 he now has a meaning for what his life's been, 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:01.040 and so I think he's accepted that. But the diagnosis 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.359 has definitely helped actually his self esteem, I would say, 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:07.400 because he knows why he does things. And yeah, some 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:11.800 people say labels aren't good, but our experience is that 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.080 labels can help you understand, and they can help the 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:18.359 people around you understand. And then from there, his sister 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.720