Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a special bonus episode
Speaker 2: of The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by The
Speaker 2: New Zealand Herald. There have been no official talks yet
Speaker 2: about compensation for the complainant against Gevin Mcskimming, The former
Speaker 2: deputy police commissioner, is awaiting sentencing after pleading guilty to
Speaker 2: having child sexual exploitation and beast reality material on his
Speaker 2: work devices. A scathing watchdog report has found some of
Speaker 2: the nation's highest ranking officers ignored a young woman's anonymous
Speaker 2: complaints against mix Skimming. Instead, she was prosecuted for digital harassment.
Speaker 2: The handling of the case has been called appolling by
Speaker 2: the now Police Commissioner Richard Chambers and Police Minister Mark Mitchell.
Speaker 1: Today on The.
Speaker 2: Front Page, colleague HEROLD Senior reporter Jared Savage is with
Speaker 2: us to take us behind the scenes of how this
Speaker 2: case unfolded and how the sordid details came to light.
Speaker 2: First off, Jared, how did this first come to your attention?
Speaker 1: So late last year? Sort of December tweeny twenty four,
Speaker 1: we started hearing sort of whispers around how Deputy Commissioner
Speaker 1: gim Skimming was possibly under criminal investigation that related to
Speaker 1: a complaint from a young woman who happened to have
Speaker 1: worked for the police for some time. So we started,
Speaker 1: you know, as we do, started sniffing around and trying
Speaker 1: to find out what was going on, and we put
Speaker 1: some questions into the police, saying, you know, what's going on,
Speaker 1: essentially as the Deputy commissioner under investigation and so on
Speaker 1: and so forth, and what happened. The response back was
Speaker 1: a typical no comment, but they also said they also said, well,
Speaker 1: there's actually another prosecution which we can't tell you about,
Speaker 1: and there are massive suppression orders all over it, which
Speaker 1: means that essentially you're gagged from saying anything. So that
Speaker 1: was the starting point. We broke a story saying that
Speaker 1: jem mcskimming was under investigation, but we can't retell you
Speaker 1: much more than that. Now. As time went on, mc skimming,
Speaker 1: the police investigation uncovered quite extreme pornographic material on his
Speaker 1: work devices. So he denied these allegations that we couldn't report.
Speaker 1: He denied these allegations saying I'm innocent, you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to coming back to work. That was
Speaker 1: in January. Shortly after that, the police found the subjectionable
Speaker 1: material on his devices, and that triggered a separate criminal investigation,
Speaker 1: and as we now know, he pleaded guilty to a
Speaker 1: possession of abjected material. He had to resign in disgrace,
Speaker 1: and that easy yet to be sentenced on that. However,
Speaker 1: there was this underlying what had happened was is that
Speaker 1: the other investigation, which we couldn't report on, we kept
Speaker 1: on digging and we've we found out what was going
Speaker 1: on there. And what had happened was is that the
Speaker 1: woman who had made these allegations about mic skimming had
Speaker 1: in that been prosecuted for essentially a harassment campaign of
Speaker 1: multiple emails, and so of course her defense was, well,
Speaker 1: I'm telling I'm telling you, I'm telling the truth about
Speaker 1: this guy. And that is only just this week we
Speaker 1: managed to fight the suppressions getting uplifted. And that's what's
Speaker 1: how everything has tumbled out in the last couple of days.
Speaker 2: Because it would be so frustrating knowing that there was
Speaker 2: something under the surface, being kind of so close but
Speaker 2: yet so far because of those blanket suppressions. And it
Speaker 2: is important though, when something is suppressed, when there are
Speaker 2: two concurrent cases happening at the same time a suppression
Speaker 2: on both of them, you need, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in this case, the suppression orders were
Speaker 1: put in at the time of that she was arrested
Speaker 1: in the middle of last year. The suppression orders were
Speaker 1: put in place ostensibly to protect mc skimmings's reputation. He
Speaker 1: was about to put his hand up for the top job.
Speaker 1: If they had been reporting of these emails accusing him
Speaker 1: of being a sexual predator, obviously that wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: good for his chances of getting that job, regardless of
Speaker 1: the veracity of the allegations. So therefore, the suppressions were
Speaker 1: put in place to sort of stop further harm to
Speaker 1: him and his reputation and his Stanley. But of course
Speaker 1: that's the narrative that he was putting putting forward, and
Speaker 1: that was the reason why the police didn't take these
Speaker 1: allegations from this young woman seriously at the time. They
Speaker 1: didn't investigate them. They chose to basically accept his version
Speaker 1: of events on face value, and that's led to these
Speaker 1: charges and suppressions. And it was incredibly frustrated because, you know,
Speaker 1: as we were on following these cases, you know, throughout
Speaker 1: the year, we kind of knew that the IPC A
Speaker 1: report was going to come out and make this quite
Speaker 1: sort of damning findings about how senior police handled the allegations,
Speaker 1: and up until you know, five pm on Tuesday on
Speaker 1: Tuesday night, like, we were fighting to get it lifted
Speaker 1: because if we didn't succeed, the IPC A report couldn't
Speaker 1: be published and we can tell you the full story.
Speaker 1: And yeah, very frustrating, but yeah, you've got a as
Speaker 1: a reporter, you've got to stick to the six of
Speaker 1: the laws and the rules, and you know, we're just
Speaker 1: lucky that we had the resources to fight it.
Speaker 2: I suppose, Jared, what kind of pressures are there that
Speaker 2: come with reporting on people in power, especially within the
Speaker 2: police hierarchy. You're juggling, you know, getting answers from police,
Speaker 2: but obviously work very closely with them in your capacity
Speaker 2: as a senior crime reporter. Is it quite difficult to juggle?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because often the people that you're speaking with are
Speaker 1: unable to speak to you in an official capacity or
Speaker 1: on the record, so you're just getting snippets of information
Speaker 1: here or there. You know, the police have a large
Speaker 1: communications team of pr advisors, so often when you're a reporter,
Speaker 1: they actually can know a lot more than you about
Speaker 1: the case or what's going on, So it can sometimes
Speaker 1: be like shining a bit of a torch in a
Speaker 1: darkened room. You can just see one little bit, but
Speaker 1: you know there's other stuff happening in the in the shadows.
Speaker 1: On top of that, you've got to be very careful
Speaker 1: legally around not defaming people, making sure that everyone has
Speaker 1: the right to reply. In this case, you had multiple
Speaker 1: things going on. There was developments all the time, so
Speaker 1: you're having to report at speed and have political ramifications
Speaker 1: as well. So this was a this was quite a
Speaker 1: tricky story to report on. Now that the floodgates are open,
Speaker 1: it's all it's all coming out, and that's great because
Speaker 1: sunlight's the best disinfectant and and that's brilliant. But but at
Speaker 1: the time when you're reporting on things, yeah, you're not
Speaker 1: you're not always entirely one hundred percent certain, and you've
Speaker 1: got to work really hard to confirm things or corroborate
Speaker 1: things even when people aren't, you know, cooperating essentially, And
Speaker 1: in this case, the suppression order has made it harder
Speaker 1: as well, because people could just turn around, you know,
Speaker 1: government agencies and departments or individuals involved could say we
Speaker 1: can't talk to you about that because it's suppressed. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and at the same time, you as a journalist, you're
Speaker 1: wanting to be incredibly fear to people like you know
Speaker 1: you're making these you're publishing these allegations. You know you've
Speaker 1: got to give everyone an opportunity to be heard. And yeah,
Speaker 1: you fight, you walk a fine line at times.
Speaker 3: I mean, I lead an organization of fifteen thousand men
Speaker 3: and woman who do an incredible job day and night
Speaker 3: across the country. I know how hard they work because
Speaker 3: I'm connected to the front line. You know this report,
Speaker 3: the findings, there's a kick in the guts for them.
Speaker 1: They are no different to me.
Speaker 3: We take a huge amount of pride in the job
Speaker 3: that we do for our country. That won't change. What
Speaker 3: will change is we will make a swift action of
Speaker 3: implementing this with my new leadership team, and we will
Speaker 3: do our absolute best to ensure this never happens again.
Speaker 2: It doesn't really seem like Chambers or Mitchell were too
Speaker 2: privy to a lot of this information before the IPCA
Speaker 2: report actually landed on their desks. I mean, what did
Speaker 2: you think reading those one hundred and thirty five pages.
Speaker 1: It's a bombshell of a report. May have seen anything
Speaker 1: quite like it. Into of fifteen twenty years of reporting
Speaker 1: on these matters, that really dived into a lot of detail,
Speaker 1: the intermassinations of what was happening at Police National Headquarters
Speaker 1: and the failures of many senior beliefs to not investigate
Speaker 1: what was run in front of them. They actually named
Speaker 1: certain officers and they're including the former Commissioner Andrew Costa,
Speaker 1: and detail quite significant failings over a long period of
Speaker 1: time by a number of police officers. Essentially, what it
Speaker 1: boils down to is this young woman has made allegations
Speaker 1: of quite serious sexual and physical nature against jem mcskimming.
Speaker 1: His explanation for all of this was, look, we were
Speaker 1: in a consensual a year. It's ended badly and this
Speaker 1: is a campaign of harassment or revenge to destroy my career.
Speaker 1: And instead of stopping to think, well, maybe she's telling
Speaker 1: the truth here and maybe we need to investigate, but
Speaker 1: just wholesale brought his vision of events, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's brought down the entire weight of the States to
Speaker 1: prosecute her and drag her through the court system. And
Speaker 1: so it's a huge power balance. Yeah, it's it's quite
Speaker 1: it's a staggering report in the end, like the police
Speaker 1: didn't lay criminal charges against Geno Mixginning in relation to
Speaker 1: her complaint, but that you know, that's sort of that's
Speaker 1: sort of by the buy and away this this report
Speaker 1: details with this this long running attempts to Yeah, they
Speaker 1: just they just didn't look at it. And it's it's
Speaker 1: quite staggering and it's been a huge amount of damage
Speaker 1: to the New Zealand place. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've read a fair few I p c A reports
Speaker 2: and similar as well A And what struck me was
Speaker 2: the language. It was quite emotive, more emotive than what
Speaker 2: you would expect with these kind of things. So I
Speaker 2: actually remember gasping when I saw the press release come
Speaker 2: through from Richard Chambers using the word appalling, which is unusual.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, very you could sense, I mean he said
Speaker 1: he was angry, and you could sense the anger in
Speaker 1: the press release, but also the subsequent press conference with
Speaker 1: Richard Chambers, the police, mister Mark Mitchell and Judith Collins
Speaker 1: attune in general quite an emotional press conference, a lot
Speaker 1: of anger and disappointment in it. I think it's because
Speaker 1: they realized the damage that this does to the reputation
Speaker 1: of the New Zealand Police. It brings up or resurrects
Speaker 1: a lot of bad memories from the Beijley Reports sort
Speaker 1: of twenty years ago, where again there were allegations of
Speaker 1: cover ups and serious sexual complaints made against police officers.
Speaker 1: You know, so this is history repeating in some regards,
Speaker 1: and you know, I guess the police would have been
Speaker 1: kind of hoping some of those attitudes of bariing in
Speaker 1: the past. But I mean, here it's it's quite clear
Speaker 1: that they they believe Mick Skimmings vision of events and
Speaker 1: they didn't want to hurt his shot at the top job.
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's it's.
Speaker 2: Remarkable as a reporter, how does it feel sitting on
Speaker 2: this information and what does a day in the life
Speaker 2: look like when you're trying to hunt down these leads.
Speaker 1: Most of it is really boring league work, So it's.
Speaker 2: Not like the movies and Spotlight where they're running around
Speaker 2: town and opening up files and things.
Speaker 1: Certainly not quite as dramatic as the movies make out,
Speaker 1: but I mean a lot of it is simply calling people,
Speaker 1: filing requests for court documents, talking to two people involved
Speaker 1: in the case, and just sort of trying to piece
Speaker 1: piece it all together. We had quite a nervous wait
Speaker 1: on Tuesday. We were obviously waiting to we you know,
Speaker 1: we had engage lawyers to try and get uppressions lift it,
Speaker 1: and we had a story prepared to go, and you know,
Speaker 1: little bits and pieces were leaking out and other you know,
Speaker 1: other media, and you know, there's there's pressure to make
Speaker 1: sure that we're complying with the suppression orders. They'd also
Speaker 1: be the first to break the story, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a bit of a relief when we were
Speaker 1: able to do so and get it out at sort
Speaker 1: of you know, five oh one on Tuesday night, and
Speaker 1: everything just fell out of that, and obviously there was
Speaker 1: a bit of a feeding frenzy with the press conference
Speaker 1: and the ips air report coming out. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a good reminder actually about you know, the value of
Speaker 1: transparency and the value and journalists, you know, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't just me, it's other journalists and other newsrooms as well,
Speaker 1: and also without our newsroom, support of editors and lawyers
Speaker 1: to try and get this over the line so that
Speaker 1: people could be fully informed about it. And I guess
Speaker 1: that shows the value of the media, and it's sort
Speaker 1: of watched og role in the.
Speaker 2: Fourth estate, and we'll just end on that. I think
Speaker 2: one of the most important aspects of this story, and
Speaker 2: that's the woman involved at the center of this case.
Speaker 2: So I understand that you've spoken to her legal counsel.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've spoken to Stephen Lackett, who barised an author. Yep.
Speaker 1: He you know, he gave quite a strong statement to
Speaker 1: the Herald for that first story in relation to how
Speaker 1: the police had failed his client, that instead of treating
Speaker 1: her as a potential victim, that they have chosen to
Speaker 1: ignore her essentially and brought the full weight of the
Speaker 1: state down instead of devastating impact on her. The Lewis
Speaker 1: is and so I would not be surprised that at
Speaker 1: some point there's going to be some kind of civil
Speaker 1: or compensation kind of claim brought against the police in
Speaker 1: relation to this. And yeah, it'll be interesting to see
Speaker 1: how that plays out as well.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Jared Legia Jose.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at ends at herold dot co z. The Front Page
Speaker 2: is produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who's also
Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.