WEBVTT - The Kiwi communities left stranded in the news desert

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<v Speaker 1>Just a quick note before we start the show. In

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<v Speaker 1>an episode of The Front Page published on Thursday, Senior

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<v Speaker 1>Herald writer Simon Wilson said that the Character Coalition believed

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<v Speaker 1>apartment living should be further out from the central city

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<v Speaker 1>than Mount Roskill. This was incorrect. The coalition tells us

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<v Speaker 1>it supports apartment living in the central city and in

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<v Speaker 1>areas appropriately located in inner city suburbs and near railway stations. Kyoda,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this is

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<v Speaker 1>the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New

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<v Speaker 1>Zealand Herald. Over the past decade, New Zealand has seen

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<v Speaker 1>dozens of community newspapers shut down, newsroom rolls cut and

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<v Speaker 1>programs taken off the air. A new discussion paper by

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<v Speaker 1>former Enzied Herald editor in chief Gavin Alice warns that

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<v Speaker 1>these changes are creating news deserts, is where communities have

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<v Speaker 1>little to no access to local reporting. The report highlights

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<v Speaker 1>the Far North topor South Tartanaki and Central Hawks Bay

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<v Speaker 1>as regions already showing signs of reduced coverage, while parts

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<v Speaker 1>of Auckland and Wellington are also being affected. The paper

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<v Speaker 1>argues that without intervention. The impacts will become more visible

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<v Speaker 1>during upcoming elections with reduced scrutiny of local government and

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<v Speaker 1>fewer reliable sources of information for voters. So how widespread

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<v Speaker 1>is the problem and what are the possible solutions? Today

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<v Speaker 1>in ZID Herald editor at Large Shane Curry joins me

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<v Speaker 1>to discuss what the rise of news deserts could mean

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<v Speaker 1>for New Zealand. All right, so first off, Shane, can

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<v Speaker 1>you explain the concept of a news desert to me?

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<v Speaker 2>I can. The news desert was first coined in the

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<v Speaker 2>US actually about eleven thirteen years ago, and it's basically

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<v Speaker 2>an area could be graphic area or an area population

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<v Speaker 2>where critical information isn't reaching the people. So it might

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<v Speaker 2>be what the local council is up to, critical decisions

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<v Speaker 2>that are being made on behalf of a community that

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<v Speaker 2>the community is simply not hearing about because there is

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<v Speaker 2>a lack of a media platform, whether that's a traditional

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<v Speaker 2>community newspaper or a radio television network in the case

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<v Speaker 2>of the States, you know, with the network system that

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<v Speaker 2>they have over there. So it's really that inability for

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<v Speaker 2>a community to discuss information to know what's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>And so do you think New Zealand has these news

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<v Speaker 1>deserts or sort in the report mentions that we might

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<v Speaker 1>be only ankled deep in the sand.

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<v Speaker 2>It's coming that Gavin Alys has completed a very extensive

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<v Speaker 2>report and he has looked at geographic regions and he's

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<v Speaker 2>pinpointed a couple in particular, the far North areas actually

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<v Speaker 2>of Wellington and Auckland. And if you're call that just recently,

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff is closed seven of its community titles in Auckland.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Auckland's a massive city, right, it's really a

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<v Speaker 2>combination of lots of different cities or small towns if

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<v Speaker 2>you like, as a lot of people have said in

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<v Speaker 2>the past, and so a lot of those areas within

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<v Speaker 2>Auckland have lost their community paper. Now there's a big

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<v Speaker 2>debate as to whether those community papers were serving a purpose.

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<v Speaker 2>Hence why the argument was that they lost a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of advertising revenue, readership dropped and Stuff had no choice

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<v Speaker 2>but to kind of close them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because there's talk of like the zombie or ghost newspapers,

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<v Speaker 1>and so that might have been sort of what some

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<v Speaker 1>of those were before they were shut down.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, And look, Kevin Allis points particularly to STUFF

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<v Speaker 2>and NZME which publishes The New Zealand Herald, that they've

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<v Speaker 2>both closed around forty titles in recent years, forty community titles. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>what's happened is that big Corporate's right, they're always needing

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<v Speaker 2>to make a profit. They looking at their cost lines

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<v Speaker 2>all the time. I've been involved myself around the exec

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<v Speaker 2>table looking at cost lines. The model that was introduced

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<v Speaker 2>for a lot of these community papers in order to

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<v Speaker 2>reduce costs was that they would share some pages of

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<v Speaker 2>the similar content. Fine in theory, great in theory, and

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<v Speaker 2>it does work where it has an impact, though, as

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<v Speaker 2>if a story is irrelevant to the community that it's serving,

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<v Speaker 2>so great if it's say puzzles, or if you have

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<v Speaker 2>a general weather map for the areas covered. But if

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<v Speaker 2>you're then getting into stories which are from completely different regions,

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<v Speaker 2>then of course the reader is going to say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this doesn't impact me at all. And in fact Rob Drin,

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<v Speaker 2>who runs the Flags newspaper in Devenport, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>very successful community newspaper, he actually studied the North Shore Times,

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<v Speaker 2>the Stuff community paper for several months and found for

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<v Speaker 2>a long period there was hardly any local faces in

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<v Speaker 2>the paper.

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<v Speaker 1>Towards the end, yes, so I guess zombie newspaper. It's

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<v Speaker 1>just hobbling together. So there's no actual original part of

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<v Speaker 1>it left.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's a little bit, there's not a lot, though

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<v Speaker 2>it's a very small percentage of the overall package. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>these community papers also have to rely on a decent

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<v Speaker 2>share of advertising, and so the successful ones continue to

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<v Speaker 2>have a more than fifty percent ratio of advertisements to

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<v Speaker 2>editorial content, and so you really do have to make

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<v Speaker 2>the most of that those editorial pages that are left

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<v Speaker 2>to cover. But yeah, the zombie paper is essentially one

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<v Speaker 2>where that editorial content is possibly stories from other areas

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<v Speaker 2>of the region or the country and are not directly

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<v Speaker 2>relevant to that audience.

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<v Speaker 1>So for some of those areas highlighted, the fun No

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<v Speaker 1>Top or South Tananaky, Central Hawk's Baywood, those are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the ones highlighted as being uncovered already. So in

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<v Speaker 1>those areas where they're looking at potentially becoming a news

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<v Speaker 1>desert or you know, only being served by these zombie papers,

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<v Speaker 1>what are the effects for the general public.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think, just to pick up on a point there,

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<v Speaker 2>I actually went back and looked at those regions specifically

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<v Speaker 2>that were named in the report, and in fact the

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<v Speaker 2>far North through endz Me actually has still the Northland

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<v Speaker 2>Age and that's weekly paid for newspaper. And in the

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<v Speaker 2>case of Topo, it's actually still got a community newspaper

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<v Speaker 2>that was brought out from ends ed Me by an

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<v Speaker 2>independent operator. So in those particular areas there is still

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<v Speaker 2>a community newspaper or a weekly newspaper serving its purpose.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's no doubt that there's other parts of the

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<v Speaker 2>country which are being let down. Now what that means

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<v Speaker 2>is that local councils, local politicians, if you take it

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<v Speaker 2>to the nth degree, can almost get away with anything

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<v Speaker 2>around the council table because they're not being scrutinized. The

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<v Speaker 2>community doesn't know necessarily what's going on around the council table.

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<v Speaker 2>It might be, you know, a decision as simple as

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<v Speaker 2>local roading or something to do with rates, or you

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<v Speaker 2>know the library. You know, these are issues that affect

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<v Speaker 2>everyday people in these communities and they're not hearing about them.

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<v Speaker 2>Social media can play a role here, but it's still

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of councils delivering that information out, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>still not delivering information that's been scrutinized or mediated by

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<v Speaker 2>a reporter by a journalist.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting, like how in twenty twenty five, how

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<v Speaker 1>relevant is a community newspaper like that these days?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh a lot. There's examples around the country are very

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<v Speaker 2>successful community newspapers that still operate. I mentioned the Devenport

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<v Speaker 2>flag Staff. Rob Drink does an amazing job on the

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<v Speaker 2>north shore here in Auckland in terms of delivering a

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<v Speaker 2>weekly community newspaper. I just looked at some of his

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<v Speaker 2>latest editions are up to forty pages, chock a full

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<v Speaker 2>of ads. Now, of course I don't know what the

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<v Speaker 2>yields are on those ads. So all of the community

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<v Speaker 2>editors and executives that they speak to that they say

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<v Speaker 2>they're operating at low margins, so's you know, they're not

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<v Speaker 2>getting rich by any means. But they to tea. They

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<v Speaker 2>all talk about the purpose of the job serving their communities,

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<v Speaker 2>being really closely connected to the communities.

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<v Speaker 1>And so there's still.

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<v Speaker 2>Around seventy community newspapers listed on the Community Newspapers Association

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<v Speaker 2>website that is doing a great job, and so yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't write them off at all. I think what

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<v Speaker 2>we've seen in the recent times is the corporate's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of exiting the business of community newspapers and independent operators

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<v Speaker 2>who have been there for a long time. They might

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<v Speaker 2>be taking on more titles, or there might be some

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<v Speaker 2>new individuals coming in entirely seeing an opportunity to help

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<v Speaker 2>their own local communities.

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<v Speaker 1>You mentioned local politicians and things, and obviously we've got

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<v Speaker 1>local elections coming up and then in general election next year.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you think the effects of all this are

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<v Speaker 1>going to be felt in those two.

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<v Speaker 2>That, yeah, it's a great question. With the local Boody

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<v Speaker 2>elections next month, and again I've been looking at some

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<v Speaker 2>of the local community coverage and they do have extensive coverage,

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<v Speaker 2>whether that's Q and A's with their mayoral candidates or

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<v Speaker 2>their council and that's where it's important that audiences and

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<v Speaker 2>communities here from these people who expect to be elected

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<v Speaker 2>to the councils and paid for over the next three years.

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<v Speaker 2>Gavin Allis in his paper is very clear that he

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<v Speaker 2>thinks the news deserts will become more plentiful in the

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<v Speaker 2>next twelve months and that's a real worry, he says

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<v Speaker 2>leading up to the general election, where yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>He said thinks the term is going to become ubiquitous

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<v Speaker 1>by general election next year.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, and it is already ubiquitous in other parts

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<v Speaker 2>of the world. You know, there are examples in Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>the US especially, and the UK where there are these

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<v Speaker 2>areas that aren't covered by any form of media whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 1>There's an interesting statistic about The New York Times has

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<v Speaker 1>more journalists than the entirety of New Zealand. It's about

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen hundred in New Zealand, according to a spin off

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<v Speaker 1>survey from last year, versus seventeen hundred employed by the

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times. It sounds like a pretty stark comparison.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, when you look at the population of

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<v Speaker 1>New York is higher than the population of New Zealand,

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<v Speaker 1>So what is that comparison.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, yeah, that is a relevant point. And of course

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<v Speaker 2>the New York Times would argue that it's actually an

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<v Speaker 2>international media company as well, so it's covering the world

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<v Speaker 2>almost But nevertheless, I think it does play to a

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<v Speaker 2>point that one singular media company, the most successful arguably

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<v Speaker 2>newspaper publishing company in the world, has more journalists than

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<v Speaker 2>an entire country. Now, New Zealand because of its geographic nature,

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<v Speaker 2>just our physicality, you know, we are very spread out

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of our population base. So there are pockets

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<v Speaker 2>of the country with tiny communities. I've just come back

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<v Speaker 2>from a road trip of the entire country, and I've

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<v Speaker 2>gone into brilliant parts of the country. Places might have

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<v Speaker 2>ten permanent residents. Now, of course they don't necessarily have

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<v Speaker 2>a local newspaper or a media platform, but in the

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<v Speaker 2>past they've probably been served relevant content by nearby towns

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<v Speaker 2>or cities which have these newspapers where they're based.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd want to ask about the road trip. Is

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<v Speaker 1>there any talking to people on the ground, like, how

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<v Speaker 1>is the general public feeling about this? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>And I think this again displays the importance of local

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<v Speaker 2>media in that and for all media companies. Is that

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<v Speaker 2>I was always told by a former boss of mine,

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<v Speaker 2>one of my first editors, the two most important roles

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<v Speaker 2>in any media business as your frontline salesperson in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of advertising, and your frontline reporter. One brings in the

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<v Speaker 2>money and one brings in the editory of the stories.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you can get a business model working hand

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<v Speaker 2>in hand in that model, then by and large you've

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<v Speaker 2>got a very successful business. And of course that's what

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<v Speaker 2>the community newspapers have been based on for many years,

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<v Speaker 2>people who are directly in touch with the people that

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<v Speaker 2>they're writing about. So everyone's on first term names basis,

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<v Speaker 2>they know what's going on that the editors themselves are

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<v Speaker 2>driving the roads that they're writing about every day, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's a really critical part of what makes

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<v Speaker 2>the successful not just a community newspaper go well, but

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<v Speaker 2>also any media business, is that the journalists, the editors

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<v Speaker 2>are out in that community that they're writing about. And

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<v Speaker 2>so what I my own observations from the road trip

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<v Speaker 2>having been two weeks on the road. It's not a

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<v Speaker 2>long time, but in every place I went to, there's

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<v Speaker 2>so many great stories it I mean, everyone has a story, right.

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<v Speaker 2>That's again another lesson that I was taught as a

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<v Speaker 2>young reporter. Everyone has a story, and if you just

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<v Speaker 2>can sit down face to face, you'll get a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more out of people than maybe a phone call or

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<v Speaker 2>a zoom call.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, lock, I probably couldn't have predicted what would have

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<v Speaker 3>happened if ire reflect back on eighteen months ago. I

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<v Speaker 3>knew the challenges ahead for the business absolutely, but the

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<v Speaker 3>continued recession and advertising downtown in the market was sort

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<v Speaker 3>of really pivotal for us having to make some critical choices.

0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 3>So I'm still here, So that's a good sign. And

0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.200
<v Speaker 3>you're right, you've got to take the wins when you can.

0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.480
<v Speaker 3>So it's been an interesting eighteen months a fire reflect

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.560
<v Speaker 3>back on sort of where we were eighteen months ago.

0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.160
<v Speaker 3>We had to make some really hard decisions last year.

0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.720
<v Speaker 3>You know, the last twelve months really have seen us

0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.599
<v Speaker 3>deliver what has been the worst operating loss that the

0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:36.640
<v Speaker 3>business has ever experienced.

0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting. We've seen a lot of closures across basically

0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.720
<v Speaker 1>every news organization in New Zealand. Ended Me, Stuffs, tv Z,

0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:53.160
<v Speaker 1>even Iron Zed's announcing redundancies. What are the big drive like,

0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:54.600
<v Speaker 1>is this just a money issue?

0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.360
<v Speaker 2>A lot of issues so obviously and for some of

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.720
<v Speaker 2>the business models, it's the advertising red new drop that

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.840
<v Speaker 2>we've seen over the course of the last decade plus.

0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.120
<v Speaker 2>End Me of course has launched subscription service with the

0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.319
<v Speaker 2>New Zealand Herald, the premium service, so building up a

0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 2>new revenue stream in terms of subscriptions, and that's still

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, still early days. It's only five years old,

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.400
<v Speaker 2>but going extremely well. But it still hasn't matched that

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:28.440
<v Speaker 2>traditional print advertising revenue that for so long has sustained

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and continues to play a critical role for the company,

0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 2>saying with television, you know, for many, many years television

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 2>advertising revenue was sky high. Nowadays TVNZ's revenue for instances

0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.040
<v Speaker 2>in the two hundred millions rather than the three hundred

0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.560
<v Speaker 2>or four hundred millions, and so media companies have obviously

0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:53.560
<v Speaker 2>had to adapt to less revenue by cutting costs. We've

0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.560
<v Speaker 2>seen that with everybody, and yes, you're right, we are

0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 2>now seeing it with our public broadcaster to RINZ as well.

0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Government different issues slightly and that it's a reflection of

0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 2>the current economy is having to cut costs across the

0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.120
<v Speaker 2>public service in rnz's impacted by that, but a lot

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 2>of factors. Obviously, the rise of social media has seen

0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Google and Facebook come in and take away at least

0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.520
<v Speaker 2>eighty percent of the traditional revenue that media companies have

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 2>relied upon to fund their newsrooms.

0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.560
<v Speaker 1>And so these cuts they're being felt globally then I

0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 1>assume they are.

0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean particularly in countries such as New Zealand, the UK,

0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Australia and the US and all of those countries, media

0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:44.080
<v Speaker 2>companies are just talking to their governments and bureaucrats about

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 2>just rearranging settings. If you like to try it even

0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:49.520
<v Speaker 2>the playing field up, and we've seen that in New

0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Zealand in the last few years where the Fair Digital

0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.640
<v Speaker 2>News Bargaining Bill has been a much debated but not

0:15:55.760 --> 0:16:00.320
<v Speaker 2>yet past piece of legislation which would require this social

0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.440
<v Speaker 2>media companies to start contributing to the revenue streams of

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the media companies that are relying on the journalism to

0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 2>fund their business, to build their business models, and so

0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the media companies have been arguing that social media has

0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:13.440
<v Speaker 2>a part to play here.

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Keeping it global as well. It's interesting just looking at

0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 1>in the last week what's hapding the US. You know,

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.480
<v Speaker 1>we've seen Donald Trump on Friday flow to the idea

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 1>of pulling the licenses of TV stations that disagree with

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.160
<v Speaker 1>her will criticize him, and then Jimmy Kimmel being taken

0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.400
<v Speaker 1>off the air as well. So these were political decisions

0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.040
<v Speaker 1>rather than financial. What do you think of New Zealand

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>government's relationship with the media.

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, I bumped into actually the Media and Communications Minister

0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Paul Goldsmith this morning. As far as I'm aware, the

0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 2>executives and the boards have a decent dialogue with the government.

0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I think there's an argument that the government has not

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 2>with any sense of urgency, addressed the issues that the

0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.280
<v Speaker 2>media companies have been raising for several years now. And

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.439
<v Speaker 2>of course, if you remember Melissa Lee was lost her

0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:15.639
<v Speaker 2>role as the Media and Communications Minister last year because

0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.879
<v Speaker 2>she was seen not to be doing enough well, you

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:24.200
<v Speaker 2>could argue that Paul Goldsmith has been similarly restrained. Now

0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 2>what's going on around that coalition table only they know,

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 2>but what we do know as a public is that

0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.639
<v Speaker 2>you have New Zealand first, which has been opposed to,

0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 2>for instance, the Sunday advertising ban being lifted for television

0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 2>in the mornings and so that's played a part in

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.480
<v Speaker 2>that being stored. And then you have ACT which is

0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.240
<v Speaker 2>opposed to the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill. So you've

0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of heard in cats around the cabinet table in

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 2>terms of all this different possible media legislation. You have

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.720
<v Speaker 2>the National Party in the middle. It's having to appease

0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.720
<v Speaker 2>two different parties and in the meantime, these so called

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.480
<v Speaker 2>solutions are not getting passed.

0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.600
<v Speaker 1>I remember National were pretty against the potential merger of

0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.240
<v Speaker 1>rn Z and TVNZ as well back a few years ago.

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and of course Chris Hipkins shortly before the

0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.960
<v Speaker 2>general election pulled that as a piece of the Labor

0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.159
<v Speaker 2>Party policy as well, so it was a sort of

0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:24.560
<v Speaker 2>an Ardurn lead piece of legislation. Hipkins put it on

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.000
<v Speaker 2>the back burner, quashed it, and of course it never

0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.359
<v Speaker 2>went ahead. There is an argument now, with RNZ moving

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 2>into the TVNZ building in the coming six months, that

0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.119
<v Speaker 2>that may see a lot more cooperation and collaboration between

0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.119
<v Speaker 2>the two public broadcasters. That has to happen, and so

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.360
<v Speaker 2>it's almost a merger by stealth where you might see

0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.960
<v Speaker 2>some back room initiatives being shared. Initially that might be

0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.560
<v Speaker 2>some administrative financial kind of areas, but I also see

0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.240
<v Speaker 2>a huge opportunity for the two newsrooms of the public

0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 2>broadcasters to collaborate on some major US investigations or coverage

0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.760
<v Speaker 2>of breaking store and things like that. And I'm sure

0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.080
<v Speaker 2>the two chief executives, Paul Thompson and Jody O'Donnell are

0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 2>no doubt talking about that kind of possibility already.

0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.359
<v Speaker 1>Do you see any hope in the future of this?

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.119
<v Speaker 2>Always an optimist, always an optimist, and I do see hope,

0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 2>and whether that's you know, we've talked today about some

0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.159
<v Speaker 2>of the examples at the grassroots community level there are

0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.200
<v Speaker 2>some amazing people doing good stuff in our regions and

0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.080
<v Speaker 2>in our communities. I see with the likes of you know,

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.280
<v Speaker 2>we just look at the arrangement we're in today. This

0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.200
<v Speaker 2>is the New Zealand Herald broadcasting a daily podcast, which

0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.960
<v Speaker 2>was unheard of even five years ago. Right as media

0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.879
<v Speaker 2>companies have converged and understood through the use of data,

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.119
<v Speaker 2>just audience habits and what audiences are interested in. And

0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.760
<v Speaker 2>remember we have real time data now can we don't

0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.439
<v Speaker 2>need to wait for sales data for a newspaper in

0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.480
<v Speaker 2>a week's time kind of thing. We know instantaneously how

0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.160
<v Speaker 2>audience is enjoying or not, you know, a certain platform.

0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.560
<v Speaker 2>But at the heart of it, I always think people

0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.600
<v Speaker 2>they have a deep desire to know what's going on

0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.560
<v Speaker 2>around them. And that's where journalism plays a role in

0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 2>terms of making sure that we are you know, it's

0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.399
<v Speaker 2>almost tweeted that, but that we are holding the powerful

0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.520
<v Speaker 2>to account and that we are explaining issues to our

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:28.879
<v Speaker 2>audiences clearly and concisely, fairly and balanced and so always

0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.320
<v Speaker 2>an optimist, there will always be that opportunity, you know,

0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 2>audiences digitally for the likes of the Herald and stuff

0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.919
<v Speaker 2>and r and Z and others have never been higher.

0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.880
<v Speaker 2>It's just getting that business model right. And you know, yes,

0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.080
<v Speaker 2>we still need the advertisers absolutely, but also finding other

0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.280
<v Speaker 2>revenue streams to ensure that the newsrooms can stay as

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:52.520
<v Speaker 2>well resourced as possible.

0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, I think that's a great optimistic note to

0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:56.720
<v Speaker 1>end on, so we'll leave it there. Thank you so

0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:57.600
<v Speaker 1>much for joining us.

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Great, thank you.

0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.359
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:08.119
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.040
<v Speaker 1>at inzidherld dot co dot inz. The Front Page is

0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.800
<v Speaker 1>produced by Jane Yee. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to The

0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 1>and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.