1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Just a quick note before we start the show. In 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: an episode of The Front Page published on Thursday, Senior 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Herald writer Simon Wilson said that the Character Coalition believed 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: apartment living should be further out from the central city 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: than Mount Roskill. This was incorrect. The coalition tells us 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: it supports apartment living in the central city and in 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: areas appropriately located in inner city suburbs and near railway stations. Kyoda, 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this is 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Zealand Herald. Over the past decade, New Zealand has seen 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: dozens of community newspapers shut down, newsroom rolls cut and 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: programs taken off the air. A new discussion paper by 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: former Enzied Herald editor in chief Gavin Alice warns that 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: these changes are creating news deserts, is where communities have 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: little to no access to local reporting. The report highlights 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: the Far North topor South Tartanaki and Central Hawks Bay 17 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: as regions already showing signs of reduced coverage, while parts 18 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: of Auckland and Wellington are also being affected. The paper 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: argues that without intervention. The impacts will become more visible 20 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: during upcoming elections with reduced scrutiny of local government and 21 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: fewer reliable sources of information for voters. So how widespread 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: is the problem and what are the possible solutions? Today 23 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: in ZID Herald editor at Large Shane Curry joins me 24 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: to discuss what the rise of news deserts could mean 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: for New Zealand. All right, so first off, Shane, can 26 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: you explain the concept of a news desert to me? 27 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: I can. The news desert was first coined in the 28 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: US actually about eleven thirteen years ago, and it's basically 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: an area could be graphic area or an area population 30 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: where critical information isn't reaching the people. So it might 31 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: be what the local council is up to, critical decisions 32 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: that are being made on behalf of a community that 33 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: the community is simply not hearing about because there is 34 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: a lack of a media platform, whether that's a traditional 35 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: community newspaper or a radio television network in the case 36 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: of the States, you know, with the network system that 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: they have over there. So it's really that inability for 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: a community to discuss information to know what's going on. 39 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: And so do you think New Zealand has these news 40 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: deserts or sort in the report mentions that we might 41 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: be only ankled deep in the sand. 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: It's coming that Gavin Alys has completed a very extensive 43 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: report and he has looked at geographic regions and he's 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: pinpointed a couple in particular, the far North areas actually 45 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: of Wellington and Auckland. And if you're call that just recently, 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: Stuff is closed seven of its community titles in Auckland. 47 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: I mean, Auckland's a massive city, right, it's really a 48 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: combination of lots of different cities or small towns if 49 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: you like, as a lot of people have said in 50 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 2: the past, and so a lot of those areas within 51 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 2: Auckland have lost their community paper. Now there's a big 52 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: debate as to whether those community papers were serving a purpose. 53 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: Hence why the argument was that they lost a lot 54 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: of advertising revenue, readership dropped and Stuff had no choice 55 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: but to kind of close them. 56 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's talk of like the zombie or ghost newspapers, 57 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: and so that might have been sort of what some 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: of those were before they were shut down. 59 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: That's right, And look, Kevin Allis points particularly to STUFF 60 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: and NZME which publishes The New Zealand Herald, that they've 61 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: both closed around forty titles in recent years, forty community titles. Now, 62 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: what's happened is that big Corporate's right, they're always needing 63 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: to make a profit. They looking at their cost lines 64 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: all the time. I've been involved myself around the exec 65 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: table looking at cost lines. The model that was introduced 66 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: for a lot of these community papers in order to 67 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: reduce costs was that they would share some pages of 68 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: the similar content. Fine in theory, great in theory, and 69 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: it does work where it has an impact, though, as 70 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: if a story is irrelevant to the community that it's serving, 71 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: so great if it's say puzzles, or if you have 72 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: a general weather map for the areas covered. But if 73 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: you're then getting into stories which are from completely different regions, 74 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: then of course the reader is going to say, well, 75 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: this doesn't impact me at all. And in fact Rob Drin, 76 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: who runs the Flags newspaper in Devenport, which is a 77 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: very successful community newspaper, he actually studied the North Shore Times, 78 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: the Stuff community paper for several months and found for 79 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: a long period there was hardly any local faces in 80 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: the paper. 81 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: Towards the end, yes, so I guess zombie newspaper. It's 82 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: just hobbling together. So there's no actual original part of 83 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: it left. 84 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: Well, there's a little bit, there's not a lot, though 85 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: it's a very small percentage of the overall package. Of course, 86 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: these community papers also have to rely on a decent 87 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: share of advertising, and so the successful ones continue to 88 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: have a more than fifty percent ratio of advertisements to 89 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: editorial content, and so you really do have to make 90 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: the most of that those editorial pages that are left 91 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: to cover. But yeah, the zombie paper is essentially one 92 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: where that editorial content is possibly stories from other areas 93 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: of the region or the country and are not directly 94 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: relevant to that audience. 95 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: So for some of those areas highlighted, the fun No 96 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: Top or South Tananaky, Central Hawk's Baywood, those are some 97 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: of the ones highlighted as being uncovered already. So in 98 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: those areas where they're looking at potentially becoming a news 99 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: desert or you know, only being served by these zombie papers, 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: what are the effects for the general public. 101 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: Well, I think, just to pick up on a point there, 102 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: I actually went back and looked at those regions specifically 103 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: that were named in the report, and in fact the 104 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: far North through endz Me actually has still the Northland 105 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 2: Age and that's weekly paid for newspaper. And in the 106 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 2: case of Topo, it's actually still got a community newspaper 107 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: that was brought out from ends ed Me by an 108 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: independent operator. So in those particular areas there is still 109 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: a community newspaper or a weekly newspaper serving its purpose. 110 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: But there's no doubt that there's other parts of the 111 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 2: country which are being let down. Now what that means 112 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: is that local councils, local politicians, if you take it 113 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: to the nth degree, can almost get away with anything 114 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: around the council table because they're not being scrutinized. The 115 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 2: community doesn't know necessarily what's going on around the council table. 116 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 2: It might be, you know, a decision as simple as 117 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: local roading or something to do with rates, or you 118 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: know the library. You know, these are issues that affect 119 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: everyday people in these communities and they're not hearing about them. 120 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: Social media can play a role here, but it's still 121 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: in terms of councils delivering that information out, but it's 122 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: still not delivering information that's been scrutinized or mediated by 123 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: a reporter by a journalist. 124 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, like how in twenty twenty five, how 125 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,119 Speaker 1: relevant is a community newspaper like that these days? 126 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: Oh a lot. There's examples around the country are very 127 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: successful community newspapers that still operate. I mentioned the Devenport 128 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: flag Staff. Rob Drink does an amazing job on the 129 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: north shore here in Auckland in terms of delivering a 130 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: weekly community newspaper. I just looked at some of his 131 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: latest editions are up to forty pages, chock a full 132 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: of ads. Now, of course I don't know what the 133 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: yields are on those ads. So all of the community 134 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: editors and executives that they speak to that they say 135 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: they're operating at low margins, so's you know, they're not 136 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: getting rich by any means. But they to tea. They 137 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: all talk about the purpose of the job serving their communities, 138 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: being really closely connected to the communities. 139 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: And so there's still. 140 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: Around seventy community newspapers listed on the Community Newspapers Association 141 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: website that is doing a great job, and so yeah, 142 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: I wouldn't write them off at all. I think what 143 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: we've seen in the recent times is the corporate's kind 144 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: of exiting the business of community newspapers and independent operators 145 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: who have been there for a long time. They might 146 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: be taking on more titles, or there might be some 147 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: new individuals coming in entirely seeing an opportunity to help 148 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: their own local communities. 149 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: You mentioned local politicians and things, and obviously we've got 150 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: local elections coming up and then in general election next year. 151 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: How do you think the effects of all this are 152 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: going to be felt in those two. 153 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: That, yeah, it's a great question. With the local Boody 154 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: elections next month, and again I've been looking at some 155 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 2: of the local community coverage and they do have extensive coverage, 156 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: whether that's Q and A's with their mayoral candidates or 157 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: their council and that's where it's important that audiences and 158 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: communities here from these people who expect to be elected 159 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: to the councils and paid for over the next three years. 160 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: Gavin Allis in his paper is very clear that he 161 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: thinks the news deserts will become more plentiful in the 162 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: next twelve months and that's a real worry, he says 163 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: leading up to the general election, where yeah. 164 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: He said thinks the term is going to become ubiquitous 165 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: by general election next year. 166 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 2: That's right, and it is already ubiquitous in other parts 167 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: of the world. You know, there are examples in Australia, 168 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: the US especially, and the UK where there are these 169 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: areas that aren't covered by any form of media whatsoever. 170 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: There's an interesting statistic about The New York Times has 171 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: more journalists than the entirety of New Zealand. It's about 172 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: fourteen hundred in New Zealand, according to a spin off 173 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: survey from last year, versus seventeen hundred employed by the 174 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: New York Times. It sounds like a pretty stark comparison. 175 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: But you know, when you look at the population of 176 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: New York is higher than the population of New Zealand, 177 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: So what is that comparison. 178 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, that is a relevant point. And of course 179 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: the New York Times would argue that it's actually an 180 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: international media company as well, so it's covering the world 181 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 2: almost But nevertheless, I think it does play to a 182 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: point that one singular media company, the most successful arguably 183 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: newspaper publishing company in the world, has more journalists than 184 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: an entire country. Now, New Zealand because of its geographic nature, 185 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: just our physicality, you know, we are very spread out 186 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: in terms of our population base. So there are pockets 187 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: of the country with tiny communities. I've just come back 188 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: from a road trip of the entire country, and I've 189 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: gone into brilliant parts of the country. Places might have 190 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: ten permanent residents. Now, of course they don't necessarily have 191 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: a local newspaper or a media platform, but in the 192 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: past they've probably been served relevant content by nearby towns 193 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 2: or cities which have these newspapers where they're based. 194 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd want to ask about the road trip. Is 195 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: there any talking to people on the ground, like, how 196 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: is the general public feeling about this? Yeah? 197 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 2: And I think this again displays the importance of local 198 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: media in that and for all media companies. Is that 199 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: I was always told by a former boss of mine, 200 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: one of my first editors, the two most important roles 201 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: in any media business as your frontline salesperson in terms 202 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 2: of advertising, and your frontline reporter. One brings in the 203 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: money and one brings in the editory of the stories. 204 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: And if you can get a business model working hand 205 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: in hand in that model, then by and large you've 206 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: got a very successful business. And of course that's what 207 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: the community newspapers have been based on for many years, 208 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: people who are directly in touch with the people that 209 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: they're writing about. So everyone's on first term names basis, 210 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: they know what's going on that the editors themselves are 211 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: driving the roads that they're writing about every day, you know, 212 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: And so that's a really critical part of what makes 213 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: the successful not just a community newspaper go well, but 214 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: also any media business, is that the journalists, the editors 215 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: are out in that community that they're writing about. And 216 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: so what I my own observations from the road trip 217 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: having been two weeks on the road. It's not a 218 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: long time, but in every place I went to, there's 219 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: so many great stories it I mean, everyone has a story, right. 220 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: That's again another lesson that I was taught as a 221 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: young reporter. Everyone has a story, and if you just 222 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: can sit down face to face, you'll get a lot 223 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 2: more out of people than maybe a phone call or 224 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: a zoom call. 225 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, lock, I probably couldn't have predicted what would have 226 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: happened if ire reflect back on eighteen months ago. I 227 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: knew the challenges ahead for the business absolutely, but the 228 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: continued recession and advertising downtown in the market was sort 229 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 3: of really pivotal for us having to make some critical choices. 230 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 3: So I'm still here, So that's a good sign. And 231 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: you're right, you've got to take the wins when you can. 232 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: So it's been an interesting eighteen months a fire reflect 233 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 3: back on sort of where we were eighteen months ago. 234 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: We had to make some really hard decisions last year. 235 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: You know, the last twelve months really have seen us 236 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 3: deliver what has been the worst operating loss that the 237 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: business has ever experienced. 238 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: It's interesting. We've seen a lot of closures across basically 239 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: every news organization in New Zealand. Ended Me, Stuffs, tv Z, 240 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: even Iron Zed's announcing redundancies. What are the big drive like, 241 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: is this just a money issue? 242 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: A lot of issues so obviously and for some of 243 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: the business models, it's the advertising red new drop that 244 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: we've seen over the course of the last decade plus. 245 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: End Me of course has launched subscription service with the 246 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 2: New Zealand Herald, the premium service, so building up a 247 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: new revenue stream in terms of subscriptions, and that's still 248 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: you know, still early days. It's only five years old, 249 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: but going extremely well. But it still hasn't matched that 250 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: traditional print advertising revenue that for so long has sustained 251 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: and continues to play a critical role for the company, 252 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 2: saying with television, you know, for many, many years television 253 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: advertising revenue was sky high. Nowadays TVNZ's revenue for instances 254 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: in the two hundred millions rather than the three hundred 255 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: or four hundred millions, and so media companies have obviously 256 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: had to adapt to less revenue by cutting costs. We've 257 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: seen that with everybody, and yes, you're right, we are 258 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: now seeing it with our public broadcaster to RINZ as well. 259 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: Government different issues slightly and that it's a reflection of 260 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 2: the current economy is having to cut costs across the 261 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: public service in rnz's impacted by that, but a lot 262 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: of factors. Obviously, the rise of social media has seen 263 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: Google and Facebook come in and take away at least 264 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: eighty percent of the traditional revenue that media companies have 265 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: relied upon to fund their newsrooms. 266 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: And so these cuts they're being felt globally then I 267 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: assume they are. 268 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: I mean particularly in countries such as New Zealand, the UK, 269 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: Australia and the US and all of those countries, media 270 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: companies are just talking to their governments and bureaucrats about 271 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: just rearranging settings. If you like to try it even 272 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: the playing field up, and we've seen that in New 273 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: Zealand in the last few years where the Fair Digital 274 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: News Bargaining Bill has been a much debated but not 275 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: yet past piece of legislation which would require this social 276 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: media companies to start contributing to the revenue streams of 277 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: the media companies that are relying on the journalism to 278 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: fund their business, to build their business models, and so 279 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: the media companies have been arguing that social media has 280 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: a part to play here. 281 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: Keeping it global as well. It's interesting just looking at 282 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: in the last week what's hapding the US. You know, 283 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: we've seen Donald Trump on Friday flow to the idea 284 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: of pulling the licenses of TV stations that disagree with 285 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: her will criticize him, and then Jimmy Kimmel being taken 286 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: off the air as well. So these were political decisions 287 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: rather than financial. What do you think of New Zealand 288 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: government's relationship with the media. 289 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: Well, I bumped into actually the Media and Communications Minister 290 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: Paul Goldsmith this morning. As far as I'm aware, the 291 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: executives and the boards have a decent dialogue with the government. 292 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: I think there's an argument that the government has not 293 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: with any sense of urgency, addressed the issues that the 294 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: media companies have been raising for several years now. And 295 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 2: of course, if you remember Melissa Lee was lost her 296 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: role as the Media and Communications Minister last year because 297 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: she was seen not to be doing enough well, you 298 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 2: could argue that Paul Goldsmith has been similarly restrained. Now 299 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: what's going on around that coalition table only they know, 300 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: but what we do know as a public is that 301 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 2: you have New Zealand first, which has been opposed to, 302 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: for instance, the Sunday advertising ban being lifted for television 303 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: in the mornings and so that's played a part in 304 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 2: that being stored. And then you have ACT which is 305 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: opposed to the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill. So you've 306 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 2: kind of heard in cats around the cabinet table in 307 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: terms of all this different possible media legislation. You have 308 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: the National Party in the middle. It's having to appease 309 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: two different parties and in the meantime, these so called 310 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: solutions are not getting passed. 311 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: I remember National were pretty against the potential merger of 312 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: rn Z and TVNZ as well back a few years ago. 313 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: That's right, and of course Chris Hipkins shortly before the 314 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: general election pulled that as a piece of the Labor 315 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 2: Party policy as well, so it was a sort of 316 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 2: an Ardurn lead piece of legislation. Hipkins put it on 317 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: the back burner, quashed it, and of course it never 318 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 2: went ahead. There is an argument now, with RNZ moving 319 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: into the TVNZ building in the coming six months, that 320 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: that may see a lot more cooperation and collaboration between 321 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: the two public broadcasters. That has to happen, and so 322 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 2: it's almost a merger by stealth where you might see 323 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 2: some back room initiatives being shared. Initially that might be 324 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: some administrative financial kind of areas, but I also see 325 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: a huge opportunity for the two newsrooms of the public 326 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: broadcasters to collaborate on some major US investigations or coverage 327 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: of breaking store and things like that. And I'm sure 328 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: the two chief executives, Paul Thompson and Jody O'Donnell are 329 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: no doubt talking about that kind of possibility already. 330 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: Do you see any hope in the future of this? 331 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: Always an optimist, always an optimist, and I do see hope, 332 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: and whether that's you know, we've talked today about some 333 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 2: of the examples at the grassroots community level there are 334 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: some amazing people doing good stuff in our regions and 335 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: in our communities. I see with the likes of you know, 336 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: we just look at the arrangement we're in today. This 337 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 2: is the New Zealand Herald broadcasting a daily podcast, which 338 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: was unheard of even five years ago. Right as media 339 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 2: companies have converged and understood through the use of data, 340 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 2: just audience habits and what audiences are interested in. And 341 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: remember we have real time data now can we don't 342 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: need to wait for sales data for a newspaper in 343 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: a week's time kind of thing. We know instantaneously how 344 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: audience is enjoying or not, you know, a certain platform. 345 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: But at the heart of it, I always think people 346 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: they have a deep desire to know what's going on 347 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: around them. And that's where journalism plays a role in 348 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: terms of making sure that we are you know, it's 349 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: almost tweeted that, but that we are holding the powerful 350 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: to account and that we are explaining issues to our 351 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: audiences clearly and concisely, fairly and balanced and so always 352 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: an optimist, there will always be that opportunity, you know, 353 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: audiences digitally for the likes of the Herald and stuff 354 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: and r and Z and others have never been higher. 355 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 2: It's just getting that business model right. And you know, yes, 356 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: we still need the advertisers absolutely, but also finding other 357 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: revenue streams to ensure that the newsrooms can stay as 358 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: well resourced as possible. 359 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: Oh well, I think that's a great optimistic note to 360 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: end on, so we'll leave it there. Thank you so 361 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: much for joining us. 362 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: Great, thank you. 363 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 364 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 365 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: at inzidherld dot co dot inz. The Front Page is 366 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: produced by Jane Yee. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to The 367 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 368 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.